Left-Libertarianism and Ron Paul
I had hoped to avoid a formal foray into the inevitable dissection of Ron Paul, his newsletters, and his ties to the far right that seems to have hit right on schedule.* As one who at the time was pretty well plugged in to the libertarian blogosphere, the first incarnation of that process, in January 2008, was more than a little exhausting and brought a lot of ugly things about libertarianism to the surface that I’d rather not relive.
However, Steven Horwitz, whose posts on the subject in 2008 were critical to my own turn towards left-libertarianism, has entered the fray with a fairly detailed – and relatively widely linked – history of Ron Paul’s newsletters and their not-insignificant role in libertarian history. If you haven’t already, you should read it.
Horwitz explains how the newsletters, along with the related Rothbard-Rockwell Report, were representative of a critical era in libertarian history during which Murray Rothbard sought to grow the libertarian movement in the early post-Communism era by more directly fusing it in a coalition with working and middle class conservatives, using “cultural” issues as the bait to get the conservatives to come along.** Horwitz argues that this fusionism was deeply corrupting to libertarianism, destroying its inherent liberalism, and concludes:
It’s time to reclaim our progressive history from the hands of the right: from the Old Right of the 40s, to the Reagan era LINOs, to the paleolibertarianism of the 1990s… [T]he heritage of libertarianism is properly a progressive one.
I could not agree more with this sentiment.
Ron Paul’s newsletters, as well as his successes in the last several years, should tell us quite a bit about libertarianism, past, present, and future. Certainly, that he is doing as well as he is at present by emphasizing civil liberties and anti-militarism, and indeed doing especially well at recruiting liberals and independents to his cause, not to mention coming out increasingly in support of gay rights (though not as much, perhaps, as one would hope) and speaking passionately about the effects of the Drug War on people of color, should demonstrate that there is a surprisingly large constituency for a left-libertarianism. Though his newsletters, and his close ties to racists and anti-Semites rightly disqualify him from the Presidency and make him a questionable protest vote at best, such success clears space for future candidates without that baggage to pick up the mantle in future elections. That is not nothing, and is why I ultimately will still vote for him in the primaries next year, just as I did last time around.
However, those successes cannot be divorced from the successes of the newsletters, the Rothbard-Rockwell Report, and Rothbard’s fusionism more generally. To the contrary, they are built upon those successes. And, let me be clear: the one area where Horwitz and other commentators who have put Ron Paul’s newsletters and ties to racism in context are wrong is in suggesting that those newsletters and ties were in some way a failure. The fact is that they were more than a little successful. Those ties provided Paul with a national fundraising base that allowed him to raise more than twice the amount of money for his Congressional campaigns than the average House member between 1996 and 2004, an amount that would go especially far for someone seeking election in an obscure district in East Texas. In other words, those newsletters and ties to fringe groups and Alex Jones types are largely responsible for Ron Paul’s presence in Congress at all.
Those ties no doubt also formed a fundraising foundation for Paul’s 2008 campaign. Indeed, he seems to have been conscious of the continuing importance of those ties to his fundraising efforts at least through late 2007, when he appeared on the Alex Jones Show, which I documented here.
To be sure, that 2008 campaign is when Ron Paul started to pull in a fair amount of support from the Left. It also seems to be around the time when he started to begin speaking in a manner more clearly aimed at appealing to liberals. I know not which came first, but what is clear is that the foundation of his campaign in 2008 was still very much the far-right conspiracy theorists upon whom he had long relied. No wonder, then, that his denunciations have been so tepid, especially in 2008 – to denounce in the manner he needed to would have been to deprive himself of his most reliable source of fundraising.
The bottom line, though, is that the fusionism represented so disturbingly by the newsletters worked, just as his seeming appeals to the Left the last 3-4 years have also worked. Paul does not seem to have changed his positions on many issues during that time outside of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell. But he does seem to have changed his rhetoric and the issues he chooses to discuss. He also seems to be advocating the same policies for largely contradictory reasons as he might have in 1992-2000.
In other words, he is quite good at talking out of both sides of his mouth, just as any successful politician must be.
But in this case, the fact that someone can be so good at this while advocating for more or less the same libertarian policies should be a cause for libertarian self-reflection. On the one hand, those successes increasingly demonstrate just how possible it is for libertarianism as it currently exists to appeal to the masses and capable of perhaps winning elections on a wide scale. On the other, much more disturbing hand, Ron Paul’s successes demonstrate how thin the line is between the libertarianism that many of us like to think we desire and the “fascist fist in a libertarian glove” represented by the newsletters and described by Horwitz.
Both this thin line and the increasing possibility of success, then, are equally part of libertarianism as it exists. What libertarians must confront is that it is the very thinness of this line that would seem to be the source of libertarianism’s greatest hope of achieving electoral successes in the foreseeable future. We must confront whether we are ultimately comfortable with success if that success means the possibility of an illiberal libertarianism obtaining the reins of power.
If not, then we cannot let the possibility of a success due in large part to the incorporation of Rothbard’s disgusting fusionism deter us from making liberalism an explicit and, indeed, overriding tenet of libertarianism, the lack of which must be treated as a disqualifying factor for anyone who wishes to wave the libertarian banner. It is not enough, then, to merely personally disavow racism and bigotry; instead, opposition to such reactionary forces must be viewed as a central and necessary tenet of libertarianism.
*Though there is nothing new in these revelations, that does not mean they should be shoved aside. Ron Paul has several times as many supporters this time around as he did in 2008; for many of those supporters, this “old news” is anything but old and is something that they absolutely should have to grapple with in evaluating the man.
**Lest we forget, Rothbard campaigned for Pat Buchanan in 1992.
To hear the Rothbardians tell it, the story of libertarianism is the story of Rothbard. It was born with the Circle Bastiat in the fifties and now is cumulating with Ron Paul leading in the Iowa Caucuses.
My Rothbardian phase was in the late seventies–a few years out of thirty years as a libertarian. I think Rothbard’s paleo turn looms larger for Horwitz. I don’t know exactly why. Perhaps it is the role of the Mises Institute in Austrian economics. Or that his personal break with Rothbardism happened just then and _is_ the core of his differences with Rothbardians.
To many of us, it was just one more bit of Rothbardian craziness.
Anyway, I think this essay is subject to the same difficulty. While Ron Paul’s seed financing may have come from right wing crazies in 2008, that wasn’t his message in 2008 or 2009. Now his funding is coming from 2008. And the big funding in 2008 (the money bombs) wasn’t from right wing crazies.
At least, that is the way I see it.
For decades now, I have seen myself as a mainstream libertarian, following Milton Friedman or F.A. Hayek.
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The success of the Tea Party is important, though, to the concept of fusionism. Can a purely fiscal message achieve what Rothbard et al thought they could only achieve through racism and paranoia? Couldn’t fusionism still succeed without all that crap? Not that this would necessarily appeal that much to liberals, but at least it would be palatable if the anti-war, anti-drug-war message were still prominent.Report
Can a purely fiscal message achieve what Rothbard et al thought they could only achieve through racism and paranoia?
It is wholly laughable to insist that the message of the Tea Party is NOT a message of racism and paranoia. About the only thing “fusion” about the Tea Party is its ability to blend Birthers, 9/11 Truthers, Goldbuggers, Birchers, “UN World Government Takeover” crazies, and just about every other group of insane/racist conspiracy theorists into a single political party.
Oh, and don’t forget the “Osama’s death was staged, they killed him in 2003 and just kept him on ice” crowd…Report
Hypothetically, sure, I guess. In the real world as it exists? Not a chance.Report
Besides, to focus on whether such a fusionism is possible misses the point here, which is that if libertarianism can be used to so easily and successfully appeal to the paranoid and racist, indeed to the most illiberal elements of society in general, then that suggests an ideological problem with libertarianism to the extent that we view it as within the classical liberal tradition. An electorally successful libertarianism with such a problem lacks an inoculations against the possibility/likelihood of handing the reins of power to the most illiberal of persons imaginable.Report
I’m glad you wrote this addendum. It saves me the effort of posting what I already wrote saying pretty much the same thing.Report
Fiscal Fusionism? To whom would this be remotely appealing? To the minimum wage waitress who goes without health care? To the unemployed? To anyone who isn’t financially comfortable?
As a libertarian might ask, “whats in it for me?”
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At the very least, a government that doesn’t try to actively fish over the marginal member of society, as seen on any given episode of COPS over the last 20 years.Report
“actively fishing” as in ending Medicare as we know it? Laying off public sector workers while infrastructure rots, all to pay for tax breaks to the 1%?
I don’t see this kind of fishing on COPS- its usually broadcast on CSPAN.Report
Medicare needs to be overhauled. It’s a nightmare of mismanagement, riddled with fraud. If ever there was an Augean Stables requiring a thorough cleaning, it’s Medicare. I do health care software, my yardstick is the poor, most of whom only get medical care when they’re so sick they cost a fortune to treat. If Medicare were properly administered, (at least as well as Social Security) we wouldn’t have people reduced to absolute penury to get a dime from Medicare and those Medicare dollars would be far more effectively administered. By my calculations, Medicare is wasting about half of its funding.Report
I ever heard a politician who wanted to “reform” Medicare whereby “reform” meant “make better outcomes for people who depend on Medicare” then I would jump on the reform bandwagon.
All I have seen so far are 3 card monte games whose main goal is to trick the 55 and under set into walking out onto the ice floe.
Thanks, but I’ll pass.
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Ho ho. I am writing just such an essay, e’en now.Report
L60, of course, being blessed with the ability to know people’s intentions better than they themselves know their intentions.Report
I’m sure Wyden’s got a few plans (he’s the health geek in the Senate, after all…). ARRA had a few more plans.
This electronic medical record thingy stands to save us a bundle, and prevent a lot of deaths due to drug allergies.
Bottom line: We’re Working On IT, and the politicians are actually helping (provided that the industry is willing to sign off, and they seem to have decided everyone jumping in the pool at once is a fun idea…)Report
while infrastructure is STOLEN, you mean. Pennies on the dollar. They sell your power plants, they sell my buses.
In a deliberate attempt to profiteer on a made up crisis.Report
This Fusionism term of art leaves this old cat badly confused. Working through this bit over on LewRockwell.com leaves me even more confused.
What does it mean?Report
I’m not a huge fan of the term myself, actually. I just used it since it seems to be the term du jour. When I use it here, I’m just referring to the notion of a conservative populist-libertarian coalition.
The link you provide is interesting, especially as it comes several years prior to the “paleo turn,” though seemingly in the midst of Rothbard’s fallout with CATO, et al. One especially interesting aspect of it is that in rejecting what it terms “fusionism,” it nonetheless locates libertarianism within conservatism. Also interesting is that it seems to locate what it calls “fusionism” (but describes as conservative populism) as a subset of libertarianism.Report
Lord Gawd you Libertarians are worse than the Marxists with all your specialized vocabulary. Well, I guess I must master it all if I’m to make any intelligent noises.
Seen from atop the watchtower of Schloss Liberalis, here’s my take on this Fusionism. The Libertarians haven’t shifted their positions: it’s the Conservatives who quit being Conservative. Since the Great Redneck Migration into the GOP in the mid-sixties, the GOP hasn’t managed to assimilate the populists and xenophobes.
Let’s take the standard Libertarian take on Affirmative Action as a case in point. The Libertarians oppose it (quite properly, to this Liberal) on the basis of the ham hand of the State dictating quotas. But AA isn’t the Federal Government’s fault: the Rednecks found all sorts of specious reasons not to hire those Nigras. Eventually something had to be done but the problem defaulted into the courts when it should have been addressed in law.
Look at all the law hanging on the groaning nail of the 14th Amendment and the Commerce clause. Nauseating, isn’t it? Every time the Gummint wants to wield the Stark Fist of Removal, BOHICA folks, they’ll use the 14th Amendment to justify it. At some point we need a better definition in law so the Libertarians (and my species of Liberal) can return to Guidance by Virtue.
The Conservatives should be carrying this issue forward but we see what they do every time they get their hands on the tiller, they give us more PATRIOT Act bullsh*t, which isn’t Conservative by any definition. Thank FSM for the Tea Partiers who stood up against continuations of certain provisions within the PATRIOT Act. They sure looked like Liberals to me when they did it.Report
Lord Gawd you Libertarians are worse than the Marxists with all your specialized vocabulary.
We tend to see it as “even better”. If the Marxists did anything right, they laid that precision shit down quite flat.Report
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Now if only the rest of us didn’t have to enter duplicate definitions for everything as in “Dialectic” and “Dialectic (Marxism)”.Report
“Utility” and “Utility (Rothbard)”Report
From associating with Karl Hess in his left-wing anti-politics phase to backing Pat Buchanan…WOW Rothbard veered around rather hard.
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That’s rather common actually. Plenty of examples abound of people flitting easily between one radical pole to another.
When I say “scratch a libertarian you find a socialist” thats not a casual epithet. Easier to move from socialist Grand Theory Of Everything to the libertarian model, than it is to move to the cautious circumspection of the Burkean mind.Report
Mark’s post explains probably the most compelling reason, at least on an emotional level, why I choose not to identify as a libertarian, even though I have been greatly influenced by libertarianism in the last 5 years or so. I realize that emotion is not a proper reason, by itself, to forgo or adopt libertarianism, or any other ism, and I have other concerns and probably have values that are different from the ones libertarians whom I respect share. But the history of Paulism is representative of a red flag that causes me to approach libertarianism with more caution than I otherwise might.
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I loathe the racists under the Paul’s banner, and there are even more evil people who are rallying around the man.
Paul brings a message of peace? HAHA. His followers bring death.
I’m sure Obama has his share of crazies… but they don’t rally around him in their craziness. They don’t make a cult of him and print out gold Obama dollars.Report
I’m sure Obama has his share of crazies… but they don’t rally around him in their craziness. They don’t make a cult of him…
I’m sorry, I lost you somewhere in there.Report
Yes, this is about the silliest thing I’ve read all day. (Admittedly I’ve not been up long.) No cult around Obama??? You need to meet some of my Twitter followers.
Frankly I still prefer the Ron Paul we have now to the Barack Obama we have now. It’s the damn past that is blasting my conviction on this point. It’s the implicit acceptance of those old racist rags that I can’t stand.Report
Until left-libertarianism talks meaningfully about reducing the size and scope of government, it’s just leftism, and agreement on a small grab-bag of social issues with Ron Paul is more coincidence than principle.Report
Nonsense. Is this more of this Libertarian Redefinition at work? Since when does the Left encapsulate Statism as a solution to everything? It doesn’t, though Libertarians are always telling me what the Marxists did back in the day, that the State would Wither Away. It didn’t.Report
This, too, is surely another problematic side effect of the libertarian alliance with the Right – an inability to see the Left as it actually is, especially in the post-Soviet world.Report
The Libertarians should have gently shown the GOP to the door and firmly closed it. Look at ol’ Ron Paul, getting booed when he tries to talk sense about America’s propensity to intervene in wars it doesn’t understand. What the hell is he doing running as a Republican?
Ambrose Bierce (a survivor of the Battle of Shiloh) observed Americans learn their geography from the war reporting.Report
I don’t necessarily disagree, at least with the first half of your sentence. Indeed my point is very much that libertarianism in general is properly construed as a form of liberalism, and indeed leftism. I’d argue – and have argued, albeit mostly before you were aware of these parts – that libertarianism’s marriage of convenience with the Right over the last 50-60 years has resulted in a libertarianism that is often not very true to its supposed aims. The newsletters, unfortunately, represent the natural culmination and extreme of those effects.
A libertarianism that is more concerned with the size of the federal government than with the scope of government power in general is not a libertarianism that has much connection to its philosophical roots.Report
May I extend this just a little farther? Merely proposing to end a bureaucracy doesn’t imply the candidate means to become a new Cincinnatus, abdicating his power and returning it to the people. The size of government is a bugbear, an ignis fatuus. Governing this country will require a government of considerable size to enforce the laws. Our problem goes deeper: government continues to arrogate more powers to itself, especially the Executive and the Congress is complicit.Report
Yes, exactly.Report
‘Twas a turn of phrase, MarkT: shrink the scope, shrink the size. But I do appreciate your distinction. However, the left sees gov’t as the solution to the ills of man’s estate. This is not the libertarian view of the purpose of government.Report
You’d do well to avoid putting words in people’s mouths, Tom. The Left believes the government arises from the people and ought to serve all the people. If we are egalitarian, we also observe that all men are created equal but they don’t stay that way for long.
Please avoid these simplistic reductions. You have no idea what you’re talking about, saying such things. Take your hand out of that little puppet and quit aping Rush Limbaugh. Got any questions about what Lefties believe? I’ll answer ’em, thanks so much.
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Blaise, I was far more charitable and even-handed toward the left than your vitriol is toward the right, so bug off.
“The Left believes the government arises from the people and ought to serve all the people.”
Uh huh. And they like puppies and kittens too. Got it.
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J’y reste ici. I am staying here. Feel free to crank that little organ elsewhere in hopes the monkeys might dance.
I am a Liberal. I consider myself a Leftist. I do not want your charity and I have decided to bash you every time you talk about what Lefties believe. Libertarians take a dim view of charity and pity, so I’ve seen, and so do the poor and destitute. The poor don’t want pity. They want a hand up out of the pit society has dug for them. They want a job. The Libertarians want the same and they have an excellent route to equality. It’s called Liberty, the liberty which overcomes the well-meaning Poverty Pits which keep the poor down. The poor and dispossessed are my yardstick, the yardstick of the Left, if not yours.Report
Oh I have no doubt you’ll continue to hog the soapbox, Blaise. It’s your thing. But stick with the high-fives from the amen corner because your analyses are dishonest, your “facts” stink and the punchline is always your own self-aggrandizement.Report
Tom, when you run out of facts, you start in on me. It’s the hallmark of the losing argument in the Land o’ Blog, that the loser resorts to ad-hom. I am not intimidated by you or your sloppy thinking. An actual leftie has put in an appearance and it will now be me you attack when you maunder on about Lefties. You will find me a pitiless opponent. You will keep a civil tongue in your head, for its my respect you need, not me yours.Report
You went ad hom first, big boy. You don’t even read what you write, although I can’t blame you for that.Report
Run ‘long now, Tom. Here I am and here I’ll stay, as it suits me. You’ll either start writing some muscular prose or you’ll go on whining and snarling and biting and it won’t go anywhere good.
But you’ve uttered your last unpunished fatuous little meme about Lefties around here, while I remain. Read that.
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Well, Blaise, I’d answer yr hourly calumnies against the right in return, but there wouldn’t be much time for anything else. I’ll content meself w/noting your numerous butcheries of the facts, and then let you slink off after you plop yet another poopie in the punchbowl. As usual. Rock on, brother.Report
“Blaise, I was far more charitable and even-handed toward the left than your vitriol is toward the right, so bug off.”
Without getting too involved in the substance of this dispute, this sort of argument doesn’t gain that much mileage even if it’s true.
It’s speaks to the wellrounded-ness and even character of a person that they can maintain charity and good faith even in the context of cynicism and antagonism. But ultimately, whoever is right is right.Report
Koz, my original comment wasn’t meant to be dismissive of the left: they do think the purpose of government is to improve man’s lot, whereas the libertarians don’t see it that way. The rest was Blaise being quarrelsome and I don’t need the noise.
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Blaise is a tough one. Not because he’s nastier than your typical lib (actually, he’s not), but because he what he’s writing about is nonresponsive or just tangentially related to what he’s responding to. Or, he’ll respond with some invective where the substance of what he writes is actually in agreement with his interlocutor.
But all this is ancillary. The point to you is that, positional arguments and tonal arguments can’t stand by themselves. They complement a substantive case, they don’t replace it.Report
Government is not the solution to man’s estate. No Leftie will say that. The Left will tell you the overweening power of government is the usually mechanism for tyranny and economic distortions. In this, it is remarkably similar to the conclusions reached by the Libertarians themselves.
Libertarians and Liberals disagree on the routes to some measure of equality in society. That is of little consequence: we agree on enough to declare the Conservative proclivity for Strong Leaders in the mode of Hobbes no answer to the problem of inequality in society.
Now you might be inclined, if you truly wish to avoid dismissing the Left, to read John Stuart Mill’s On Liberty. You will find it educational. There is a Liberal to correct your misapprehensions on the subject.Report
Who’s running Wikileaks?
Who’s running Anonymous?
Who’s running Wikipedia, for that matter?
Do you name these centrist or conservative ideas?Report
The conservative, as seen truly, has no base whatsoever. His only way to get people to sign onto his shtick is to put them on the diving board, or use his fist.
Therefore, the right lacks a fundamental honesty — it pretends that it means many things that are popular, when it’s true face is really quite ugly.
Modernism/Progressivism has plenty of room for stalwart skeptics like TVD.
The core difference between conservatism and modernism is that one sees everything in terms of hierarchies, and the other sees everyone as equal, and acts to preserve that in as much as possible.Report
I get the sense terms are being blurred here. My understanding of left-libertarianism is not one of mere reduction of government but its undermining en route to abolishment, defining the state (like Rothbard did during his lefty phase) as a criminal enterprise. Is that being applied to attempts at minarchist libertarian fusion with liberals too?
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There are like ten different definitions of the term.Report
It’s true. Drastically reducing the scope of the US military’s presence in the world, slashing the defense budget, and ending the war on drugs is a pretty small grab-bag of social issues.
Notably, one of the places where we left-libertarian types like to part ways with Mr. Paul is that we don’t like the notion of a massive, hands-on state meddling with the free and peaceful movement of people across borders. Good lord are we incapable of talking meaningfully about reducing the size and scope of government! If only people listened to THE FUCKING WORDS coming out of our mouths!Report
“Horwitz argues that this fusionism was deeply corrupting to libertarianism, destroying its inherent liberalism, and concludes…”
Mark, I’ve tried to call this bluff more than once and AFAIK you haven’t attempted any sort of response.
Let’s recap the premise of this argument for the sake of clarity. To wit, of the prominent libertarians from 30 years ago, the two most distinguished by their alienation from mainstream conservatism, the Republican Party, and Greater Red State America, published a bunch of nastiness. And furthermore, Rockwell-Rothbard published such nastiness because of that alienation. But, instead of blaming their alienation from conservatives, you’re blaming conservatism itself. Come on Mark, that’s ridiculous.
Compounding that, you wish to associate with the Left-liberals, and take on all the baggage associated with that. Ie, not just the policy failures like PPACA and Demo unemployment, but also the intellectual and moral failures like Libya and Fast and Furious.
Mark, when push comes to shove everybody knows that the moral failures and intellectual base-stealing frauds are hanging out with the Left. That’s why the Right is such an eclectic bunch, intellectually speaking. The intellectual Left, such as it is, are mostly professional bailout artists.Report
Your central premise, that Rothbard and Rockwell are the two libertarians most characterized by their alienation from mainstream conservatism, is what is absurd. If you said “most alienated from conservative elites,” you might be correct, but that would be no less true of their relationship to liberal elites. But to suggest that they were alienated from the Right writ large is absurd. Read the link Blaise posted, in which Rothbard argues that conservative populism is indistinguishable from libertarianism, and in which he repeatedly and consistently characterizes libertarianism as inherently part of the Right. Contrast that with Hayek, who viewed libertarianism as being explicitly within the liberal tradition.
Regardless, it cannot be overemphasized that the EXPLICIT strategy of the newsletters and “paleo” turn was to align with conservative populism. Ferrchissakes, the man campaigned for Pat Buchanan. If you want to read Pat Buchanan out of the American Right, then I might suggest your definition of the American Right is little more than “people with whom Koz is not embarrassed to be associated.”Report
“If you want to read Pat Buchanan out of the American Right, then I might suggest your definition of the American Right is little more than “people with whom Koz is not embarrassed to be associated.””
No, actually I supported Buchanan in 1992, mostly cuz GHWB was a RINO back when I believed in RINO hunting. But IIRC Buchanan never published anything like what was in those newsletters. (As a small digression, IIRC 1992 was the last year Buchanan was clearly on the Right. Since then, you can either view him as an eccentric Righty or eccentric Leftie and neither bunch really wants to claim him.)
Back on track I don’t think your Rockwell-Rothbard deflection holds any water. Libertarianism of that era was culturally associated with the Right (you should agree, it’s part of your premises). Milton Friedman, Julian Simon, the other Right-libertarians of that era managed to publishing nasty newsletters well enough, and so did the conventional Republicans (eg, Pete Du Pont or Dan Quayle). It’s just the libertarians who defined themselves within libertarianism in opposition to the GOP-conservative mainstream who got themselves into trouble.
And in no case does the association with Left-progressivism help. That’s just a bunch of baggage you don’t want: historical associations with Communism, PC intellectual corruptions, and just plain bad policy. It would interesting if you tried to make a quasi-JSM argument from scratch. I think if you tried it would be more clear for you just how untenable that is historically.
My guess is, the real issue is that libertarians are tired of playing Robin to our Batman. To be honest, I actually have some sympathy for that as a frustration, but logically speaking I don’t think there’s much argument for it being any other way. I’ll be interested to see if you can write one.Report
Honestly, I have no idea what most of this has to do with any of my points.
I will simply say that libertarian agreements with the Right are, more often than not, solely on means, not ends. Libertarian agreements with the modern Left are, or at least if libertarianism is properly understood, on ends, not means.Report
That’s an accurate assessment. If the Libertarian has been hornswoggled by the GOP and led down the primrose path, the Liberal has been reduced to a caricature by the Democrats who seem intent on legislating away all our problems.Report
“Honestly, I have no idea what most of this has to do with any of my points.”
Simple. Association with the Right is not the cause of libertarian intellectual corruption, it’s the source of libertarian intellectual responsibility. See above.
“Libertarian agreements with the modern Left are, or at least if libertarianism is properly understood, on ends, not means.”
Name That Tune then Mark. My guess is, John Stuart Mill will figure prominently, and then a bunch of handwaving. But we won’t know until you try, and you haven’t tried.Report
Shall I start with Hayek, who said as much explicitly? Or perhaps HD Thoreau? RW Emerson? or how about just the phrase “classical liberal”?
As for me not trying……Jesus H FSM have you not read anything I’ve written on this site the last 3 years? You may not find my arguments on this front convincing. That’s fine. But you’re also not exactly my target audience. And of course, you’re not exactly an objective authority, whatever you may think of yourself. But do not pretend like I haven’t been trying to make an argument here.Report
“As for me not trying……Jesus H FSM have you not read anything I’ve written on this site the last 3 years?”
Yes I have, and no you haven’t. That’s not trying to be snarky, that’s just my plain recollection of things. If you have cites, I’ll read ’em.
For clarity, this is what we’re talking about: that the clearest or most important result of the association with the Right has been the corruption of libertarianism. And that in some way it’s a good thing for libertarianism to be associated with the Left.Report
I find you solid on the theory here, MarkT, in no small part because “conservatism” is an opposition to radicalism, not about “ends” atall.
Everybody claims “classical liberalism,” even conservatives, since it means ordered liberty. But how much liberty, at what price to order?
What “ends” do lefties and libertarians actually share? You cannot answer except in generic platitudes. And you’re so far apart on the means to any end that the rest of us watch in puzzlement and bemusement at this bizarre mating dance.
All you do is keep sticking your dicks in each other’s ears. There’s a structural problem here.Report
“What “ends” do lefties and libertarians actually share? You cannot answer except in generic platitudes. And you’re so far apart on the means to any end that the rest of us watch in puzzlement and bemusement at this bizarre mating dance.”
Great point. My guess is, that if Mark tries to look at this through a historical lens, he’ll say that “libertarians” and progressives were kosher with each other till say, 1910. At which point progressivism got diverted a little bit by collectivism and took a wrong turn. But a little swerve here and a correction there and everything will be hunky-dory again.
Unfortunately for that theory, it completely ignored everything that’s happened since then. Ie, in American progressivism, we’ve had the Wilson Administration, the New Deal and the Great Society.
Internationally, Marxism took institutional hold through Soviet Communism (and Mao). There’s also American progressive enabling and fellow-traveling for Communism, eg, Walter Duranty and Jane Fonda. Then there’s the revolutionary/terror elements of international progressivism: Shining Path, Fidel, Ho Chi Minh, Baader-Meinhof, etc. Plus, there’s a model of Euro-statist/social democrat progressivism exemplified by Arthur Scargill, Francois Mitterand or Willy Brandt.
But you will look long and hard for anything within a country mile of libertarianism. In fact, it should be obvious from just a cursory look at a list like this that for at least 100 years, the essence of any form of progressive politics is the attempt to use of the collective power of the state to deny the autonomy of private property.
And if somehow we were unclear on this ourselves, we could straighten ourselves out by asking the progressives themselves. There’s no progressive, of any stripe, who takes political-cultural cues from the corpus of John Stuart Mill or Thoreau. But every last one of them is strongly invested in the political power associated with one or another item from our grab bag above.
This all seems pretty basic to me but at no time has Mark tried to come to grips with any of it, especially the intellectual corruptions involved which seem to be important for him. At the very least, if he has I haven’t seen it.Report
There’s just no substitute for making shit up on the internet.Report
Well there’s always talking shit on the internet.Report
Lech Walesa was and is on the Left. The Left ain’t what it was in the 60s. Nor, for that matter, is the Right.Report
“Lech Walesa was and is on the Left.”
That’s your answer? Is this supposed to be a joke? I don’t know of one person who thinks of Walesa as a figure of the Left (except you, I guess). Who do you know?
(Btw, Walesa has been more or a less a joke figure in Polish political culture for about 20 years. His main cultural “constituency” is on the American Right.)Report
“The Left ain’t what it was in the 60s.”
Ok, in what way is it different, and why do we care about the 60s? In what way is there any model of progressivism, before or after, not built on the attempt to use the collective power of the state against the autonomy of private property, either as a means or an end?Report
Let’s see…Solidarity was a labor union, was it not? He has certainly always been a liberal in the classical sense. And last I saw, he was coming THIS close to signing up for OWS.
As for what changes liberalism has made in the last 30-40 years, let’s start with the fact that liberals have largely made their peace with the idea of the market. Matt Yglesias would not have existed 30-40 years ago. PPACA is many things evil, but one thing it is not is anything remotely close to what the Left was proposing 30-40 years ago to address the same problems. You do not get the apologists for Communism on the American Left that used to exist in much greater numbers.
But the big thing is that liberals actually care about individual liberty in a way that conservatives do not. Liberals may be more likely to view the State as a tool to preserve or create space for that individual liberty than libertarians (and sometimes it even is!), but it is ultimately the maximization of individual liberty that liberals tend to desire.
Conservatives care about individual liberty less than they care about conserving the status quo, whatever the status quo may be. Otherwise, what is it that they are conserving? That may quite often result in overlap over means with libertarians, but it has nothing to do with ends. This is not meant as a perjorative against conservatives – stability is no insignificant value, but it is a much different aim than maximizing individual liberty.
The means/ends distinction is pretty apparent if you look at, for instance, conservatives’ attitudes towards criminal procedure jurisprudence in contrast to the attitudes of liberals and libertarians.Report
Finally we’re at least trying to get somewhere. Have you ever actually tried to connect any of these dots Mark?
As for what changes liberalism has made in the last 30-40 years, let’s start with the fact that liberals have largely made their peace with the idea of the market. Matt Yglesias would not have existed 30-40 years ago. PPACA is many things evil, but one thing it is not is anything remotely close to what the Left was proposing 30-40 years ago to address the same problems. You do not get the apologists for Communism on the American Left that used to exist in much greater numbers.”
In what way does any of this affect the comprehensiveness of collectivism as the legacy of the Left, in America or abroad?
More than that, even if we were going to pretend the Stalin apologists and the Sandalistas have been washed clean of contemporary Leftism, why do we think there’s anything praiseworthy in what’s left over? Ie, do market liberals really speak for the Left?
More than that, do the market liberals actually believe in the autonomy of property or markets, or is it just an instrumental means for collective social organization?
“Conservatives care about individual liberty less than they care about conserving the status quo, whatever the status quo may be. Otherwise, what is it that they are conserving? That may quite often result in overlap over means with libertarians, but it has nothing to do with ends. This is not meant as a perjorative against conservatives – stability is no insignificant value, but it is a much different aim than maximizing individual liberty.”
I hope you do realize that this model of conservatism died with say, Francisco Franco and was out of fashion long, long before that. The implicit conservative anthropology is very deep (especially in contrast to implicit Leftist anthropology which is a cartoon). In particular, the implications of liberty, private property, and self-determination have had a long period of development and expression on the Right for multiple centuries now.
“The means/ends distinction is pretty apparent if you look at, for instance, conservatives’ attitudes towards criminal procedure jurisprudence in contrast to the attitudes of liberals and libertarians.”
Really? If we’re talking contemporary Right vs. Left in America I don’t see much difference actually. In any case, I don’t think your dots connect here anyway. It is a legitimate function of the state to guarantee order and discourage criminality. Overzealousness in that function can and does indulge vindictiveness and cruelty at the expense of the autonomy and self-determination of the polity (underlying the state). Our jurisprudence for good or ill tries to navigate that as best as it can. If you trace this back to the philosophical foundations of Leftism, I don’t think they’ll help you much.Report
Simple. Association with the Right is not the cause of libertarian intellectual corruption, it’s the source of libertarian intellectual responsibility. See above.
First off, conservatism is a relative social concept. What it means to be “conservative” changes from generation to generation. This is not true of libertarianism. The intellectual and moral corruption that libertarianism experienced came about by adopting the reactionary values towards cultural change typical of conservatism.
Conservatism is and has been defined not by individual rights and responsibilities, but by devotion to traditionally accepted social roles and responsibilities. Libertarianism has no voice on that matter, and traditionally, as has been pointed out, found itself radically opposed to traditional social roles and institutions. It is a coincidence of history that, for what seems to be an incredibly fleeting moment, that political trends put conservatives and libertarians on some level of agreement.
And at that fleeting moment of history, the Rockwell-Rothbard libertarian portion of the movement threw their lot behind the reactionary cultural regidity of the conservative movement to the harm of libertarianism in general.
But in the words of Lavar Burton, “You don’t have to take my word for it:”
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/hayek1.htmlReport
“And at that fleeting moment of history, the Rockwell-Rothbard libertarian portion of the movement threw their lot behind the reactionary cultural regidity of the conservative movement to the harm of libertarianism in general.”
This is more or less a different version of Mark’s argument, and it fails for the same reason Mark’s does. Ie, it sounds good as a talking point but it just doesn’t fly when you Check The Tape.
The Right-libertarians seemed to avoid the nastiness ok (eg, Milton Friedman, Julian Simon) and so did the conventional Republicans (eg, Pete Du Pont, Dan Quayle).Report
“Right-libertarians” =/= “libertarians Koz finds acceptable”
Your central premise is wrong.Report
Ok, let’s call them (eg, Friedman, Simon) Right-fusionist libertarians instead, because that’s what seems to be bugging you anyway.Report
“The Right-libertarians seemed to avoid the nastiness ok (eg, Milton Friedman, Julian Simon) and so did the conventional Republicans (eg, Pete Du Pont, Dan Quayle).”
This is a repeat of an argument you made earlier:
“Back on track I don’t think your Rockwell-Rothbard deflection holds any water. Libertarianism of that era was culturally associated with the Right (you should agree, it’s part of your premises). Milton Friedman, Julian Simon, the other Right-libertarians of that era managed to publishing nasty newsletters well enough, and so did the conventional Republicans (eg, Pete Du Pont or Dan Quayle). It’s just the libertarians who defined themselves within libertarianism in opposition to the GOP-conservative mainstream who got themselves into trouble.”
I know that that last sentence means something to you, but I don’t understand it, especially within the context of this discussion. What does it mean? What sort of trouble did they get themselves into?
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That among prominent libertarians, Rothbard and Rockwell are distinguished as Not Playing Nice with mainstream conservatives and the GOP.
That’s to say, that period in particular was probably the height of the Frank Meyer/National Review model of fusionism in the postwar American Right. The most prominent libertarianish dissenters to this fusion were Rothbard and Rockwell. Maybe Rand herself, but even her gripes were more philosophical and literary as opposed to political.
In other words, it wasn’t broad postwar fusion American Right who wrote those newsletters, it was those two flakes who explicitly defined themselves in opposition to it.Report
Ok, now somehow show me how what you said there supports what you said above:
“Simple. Association with the Right is not the cause of libertarian intellectual corruption, it’s the source of libertarian intellectual responsibility. See above.”
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(Btw, I meant “respectability” instead of responsbility above and mistyped.)
“Milton Friedman, Julian Simon, the other Right-libertarians of that era managed to [avoid]* publishing nasty newsletters well enough, and so did the conventional Republicans (eg, Pete Du Pont or Dan Quayle).”
Ie, that it’s the libertarians who were associated with the postwar fusionist Right who gave intellectual credibility to libertarianism. (And also, to a very large extent they gained the cultural-intellectual traction that they did as a result of that association.)
*Sorry about the typos.Report
The Left is no fan of PPACA. I’ve got an essay in E.D.’s email inbox laying out what should have been done and it wouldn’t have looked like this Individual Mandate hooey. Suffice to say Karen Ignagni, bitch goddess of Big Healthco, got into the Oval Office (despite Obama’s promise not to have secret meetings on the subject), looked him square in the eye and promised to run a billion dollars worth of attack ads if Obama said Single Payer out loud again. She came up with this Individual Mandate nonsense which I hope we can both agree is manifestly unconstitutional, a tax in all but name.Report
“The Left is no fan of PPACA.”
There is some sense in which that’s true, but clearly PPACA became law (such as it is) because the Left insisted on it (shown here among other places about six weeks ago). In fact, these sort of disavowals are exactly the sort of intellectual corruptions Mark is going to associate with if he really wants to play for Team Blue.Report
Could you help me out on something here? I’m writing up something on PPACA, and I need some good Conservative and Libertarian critiques of PPACA, beyond the obvious stuff. I did find this from Cato Robert A. Levy. If I don’t address it properly, shoring up my argument, it just might sound like so much Big Gummint Liberal blithering.Report
Reihan Salam is a good source, as are his sometime co-bloggers Josh Barro and Avik Roy. Google any of these along with PPACA and you should find some good material. Also Peter Suderman at Reason.Report
Thanks much. Hit paydirt on Peter Suderman over here.Report
To be fair to her, It’s still probably better than what (Goldmann Sachs? One of the big five at any rate) the financials said to Obama. I’ll take a relatively hard bargain against blackmail any day…Report
“That’s why the Right is such an eclectic bunch, intellectually speaking. “
Yes, their eclecticism ranges from saying “heh indeedy” to sending sacks of rock salt to US Sentors.
But be careful, because anything that quotes what they said last week is a lie.Report
A more clueless bunch I’ve never seen. You know absolutely nothing about the origins of libertarianism, much less anything about it today. Just FYI, Chomsky self-identifies as a libertarian socialist. This is documented and in his own writ. Libertarianism, like all great ideas, originated with LEFT (not unlike America, founded by leftist, anti-colonial rebels. I would see Orwell travel in the same orbit as Chomsky today and we all know he was a democratic socialist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwr2x3TiQ5EReport
What’s funny is that the notion of libertarianism-as-leftism is exactly what I’m arguing for in this post. That you seem to think I’m claiming the opposite does not speak well of your reading comprehension skills.Report
As I understand it, liberalism proposes that we have moral obligations to each other’s welfare;
Libertarianism proposes the our highest duty is to the self.
I don’t get how you reconcile that.Report
No, that’s Objectivism.Report
No, your prejudiced, self-serving and biasedresumptions about libertarianism say that libertarianism proposes our highest duty is to the self.Report
I used to conflate the two, Objectivism and Libertarianism. I don’t any more. Libertarians are respectable. I can’t say the same of Objectivists. I’m going through a steep learning curve coming to grips with Libertarians. I thought I understood them and I just don’t.Report
It doesn’t help that a group ideologically aligned with individualism is naturally averse to forming a consensus.
In any case, good on you for putting the work in.Report
Objectivism is perhaps slightly more intellectually justifiable than scientology.
Both are quasi-cult like phenomenon started by phenomenally overrated authors with a propensity for overwrought verbiage and an exceeding esteem for their own abilities.Report
I don’t understand them either-
When I lay out the principles of what I see as libertarianism, a chorus goes up -“No thats not our position!”
But when asked for their position, I usually get what amounts to garden variety fiscal conservatism mixed with “do your own thing” ethos, but never a coherent thought process that holds it all together.
Out of all the educated and well spoken people on this site, I have yet to read where anyone can lay out a clear coherent summary of what libertarianism is.
Not dumbed down, just a clear concise summation of the foundational principles, without resorting to academic jargon or tribal signifiers.
Not since I debated Marxists in the 70’s have I had the experience of people who alternately wave the banner of a label, then drop it and disappear in a cloud of inky verbiage when challenged.
Libertarianism is always something just out of view, something wonderful and terrific, but not. quite. in. focus.
Oh, its not THAT. Its not that other thing either. And its definitely not THIS!
But its really cool. Too bad I don’t understand it.Report
All those people on the Internet who claim to be libertarians and support horrible things like the repeal of the CRA, eliminating most social welfare programs, ending the EPA, and the like aren’t real libertarians or supposedly indicative of the average libertarian. Or, at least that’s what I keep on being told. Despite the fact that your ‘average’ libertarian shows up whenever Elias posts about Ron Paul and let’s just say, I don’t think any of the regular libertarian-ish commenters here want them as brothers in arms.Report
Okay, pay attention. Libertarian, like Liberal in certain ways (but not all!) seem focused on a unique perspective in politics, the Ordinary Joe, as embodied in anyone. Independent of all other considerations, Joe is constrained to abiding by the speed limits and blood alcohol limits for driving on the highway. Don’t ask a Libertarian to defend his positions, he’s got very few. He wants to maximize for freedom for the individual. How is he supposed to have a position on freedom? You alone can define freedom. He won’t try to define it for you. You’re expected to be a free agent.
I got sucked down the same trap for a while with Libertarians. Liberals think in terms of the tide as it advances and retreat. For us, the freedom of an individual is constrained by a responsive government who views us as friends, not sheep. Liberal and Libertarian views of freedom are quite similar. If it’s out of focus, maybe there’s nothing there to begin with.Report
No institution that holds power above you can be a friend, no matter how much they claim to understand you. With that kind of power, what incentive do they have to care what you think?Report
I often think that capital L libertarianism is very similar to conservatism: it’s a sentiment more than a theory even tho it’s dressed up in First Principles and Grand Visions and all that. That all on it’s own wouldn’t be a knock against it except for the fact the libertarian’s proclaim that their theories are axiomatic, consistent, a priori, necessary, sufficient, empirically correct, suffer from no known counterexamples, cannot fail. And like other sentiments it’s correct (self-justifying) simply by being held. (How could less government be a bad thing when all the bad things derive from government?!!?)
Of course, the libertarians on this site will object to my characterizing their political philosophy that way. But I really don’t see how they can: if it’s anything less than what I wrote, it’s just liberalism (or conservatism or pragmatics) with an additional principle included: for any policy, less government intrusion into markets and social life is better than more.
But that principle isn’t really interesting all that interesting, is it?Report
The problem is that there is no “True Libertarianism”. Every libertarian has their own version. This is why you keep finding the goalposts have moved, we all have own own set of goalposts.
This is actually why I find it fairly pointless to debate the merits of ideologies writ large. Better to focus on specific policies that way we have a fixed point to work with.Report
So I am coming to see, which is pretty much the way any ideology works; no two liberals agree on everything either.
Conservatism and liberalism offer up real world, working examples that while flawed, can be discussed and grasped; we can point to the New Deal as the example of Liberalism, and everyone understands it.
Libertarianism, however, exists as a hypothetical, and so is always nothing more than something constructed of words (which may be why they have such a specialized jargon). It has never existed, doesn’t exist anywhere now, and no one is proposing to institute it anywhere. So I can be sympathetic to their inability to point to a program or entity and call it Libertariana.
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Libertarianism does not exist as a hypothetical at all. This is an old wrong-headed understanding of libertarianism which, it should be understood, is a principle that undergirds many notions we take for granted in today’s society. Sure, no libertarian-branded candidate has ever been president. But many of the ideas of free markets and limited government do exist. Besides, everything is on a sliding scale anyways. There is no actual “conservatism” or “liberalism” either. There are just varying degrees of every ideology milling about.Report
So libertarianism exists in practice, because there are examples of “free markets” and “limited government” that do exist.
OK, then socialism exists, since there are examples of government owned entities and the principle of communal responsibility undergirds many notions we take for granted in today’s society.
Water anything down enough, and you can see it everywhere.
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Give me a pure example of any ideology in practice.Report
Draw me a map to Conservativeland or Liberalia, Liberty60.
Libertarianism offers more than just hypotheticals, and you continue to conflate the cultural relativism that is applicable to conservatism and liberalism, but not to libertarianism.
So to approach that way of thinking, I will gladly ally myself with Lysander Spooner and William Leggett and the libertarians of mid-19th century. Would you do the same with the conservatives of the time, say William Brownlow?Report
See above- America under the New Deal is a pretty good example of Liberalia, that is to say, liberal ideas put into practice.
There is no known example of Conservativeland, since beginning with Reagan in 1980 and continuing with GWB in 2000 the conservative movement screamed about reducing government, while doing exactly the opposite.
So you can either say that America under Reagan/ GWB was truly an example of conservatism (i.e., conservatives are full of crap) or that Real Authentic Conservatism has never been tried.Report
As Liberty pointed out, one can point to the domestic policy of the Democratic Party from the late 30’s to the late 70’s as a pretty decent example of liberal policy. A policy that most Democratic officeholders, voters, and power brokers agreed with.
I’d even go further and say that Bush-style conservatism is ‘modern’ conservatism as Bush left office with 70% approval rating from Republican’s. Most conservatives support tax cuts, reform to entitlements, restrictions on abortion, and so on. Conservative (and as a result, Republican) officeholders, voters, and power brokers all have largely agreed with the moves taken by the Republican party over the past thirty years ago.
The problem is, that whenever you see libertarian office holders (Ron Paul), libertarian voters/supporters (numerous examples on the Internet), and libertarian power brokers (Reason, Cato, et al) say things people on this site disagree with, the liberals are told on this site, “oh, they aren’t true libertarians.” If libertarian voters, office holders, and such all largely agree on a point, then that makes it a libertarian policy. Just like I have to admit that most liberals aren’t all that opposed to war as long as it’s for a good reason.Report
1) Liberals and conservatives are very quick to call out politicians who aren’t true to the game. “Blue Dogs”, “RINOs” anyone? The after-the-fact refrain questioning or outright denying the conservatism and liberalism of GWB and Obama has been deafening.
2) Ron Paul has become synonymous with libertarianism in this country at this point, and few if any libertarians argue that he isn’t at least mostly libertarian in his rhetoric. Its only natural for self-identifying libertarians to highlight the conservative parts of Paul’s platform that don’t fit their definition of libertarianism.
3) Where is the “Gary Johnson is not a true libertarian” talk now that he has jumped into the Libertarian Party primary?Report
I take the blue dogs on a case by case basis. Minnick’s doin’ just fine (the guy up in Idaho, case I get the name wrong). some of them just look like they are always in a room with rocking chairs.
The guy from Dauphin seems appropriate to where he lives, even if I detest his policies, the people there like him and them.Report
Better to focus on specific policies that way we have a fixed point to work with.
But in all too many cases, this is a non-starter since one party to the debate will deny the validity of the policy in any event. For all of us who pay attention, every policy gets viewed thru the prism of antecedently hald values, beliefs, objectives, etc., which for some people is a pretty robust a priori-sih theory of political economy. So, my preferred policy may be you’re policy-nightmare, and if that’s the case, we can’t even discuss policy specifics – we’re stuck talking about justifications for that policy in general.
Hence, the view expressed above often doesn’t get off the ground.
However, I will concede that when it does it’s a fruitful and necessary discussion to have.
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Jumpin Jesus on a pogo stick! It’s Christmas! How do you people have time to read and write these thoughtful posts?! I’m going to come back and read this more closely after the holidays. I’ve got a party to go to tonight!Report
Rothbard’s 1981 essay on Meyer’s and fusionism was from the days when he was arguing that libertarianism and conservativsm are opposities. Much of it was very close to his earlier essay, Left and Right, the Prospects for Liberty.
Meyer’s intellectual effort to tie traditionalists and libertarians together has very little connnection with Rothbard’s paleo turn. Perhaps Horwtiz’s use of the term “fusionism” was a mistake.Report
On the other, much more disturbing hand, Ron Paul’s successes demonstrate how thin the line is between the libertarianism that many of us like to think we desire and the “fascist fist in a libertarian glove” represented by the newsletters and described by Horwitz.
What? I don’t recall anything in the newsletters that even hints at fascism, except insofar as fascism is defined as anything leftists dislike.
Also, I don’t see any good reason why Obama should get a pass on his association with Wright, while Paul doesn’t get a pass on his association with Rothbard and Rockwell. The latter, at least, were apparently strategically pandering (and let’s face it, pandering is what politics is all about), while there’s been no suggestion that Wright’s bigotry was anything but sincere.Report
I’m not sure I even know what this illiberal libertarian government looks like.Report
Imagine a David Duke presidency. That’s pretty much what we’re talking about here. Indeed, Rothbard pointed to him (and, for that matter, Joe Mccarthy) as the model for this strategy.Report