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    • AvatarChip Daniels in reply to JS on Voting for Nothing For the Last TimeThere is, statistically, a dairy farmer somewhere in Wisconsin who went bankrupt due to the trade war, who nonetheless voted for Trump. His financial fortunes are more closely aligned with the Mexican immigrant who works on his farm, than the people who craft Trump policy. The policies of Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren would put more money in his pocket than the Trump policies. And yet...
    • AvatarMike Schilling on Harsh Your Mellow Monday: ‘Tis The Season to be HarshingHM4: 🎡 Buckle down, Psaki, buckle down... 🎡
    • AvatarCJColucci in reply to JS on Voting for Nothing For the Last TimeWe could do this all day.
    • AvatarMike Schilling on Harsh Your Mellow Monday: ‘Tis The Season to be HarshingHM2: Domench wrote funny stuff when he was plagiarizing it from PJ O'Rourke.
    • AvatarJS in reply to Saul Degraw on Voting for Nothing For the Last TimeYeah, that's the other problem with the class-based approach. You can claim until the cows come home that a class-based approach will "solve" problems like, say, systemic racism -- but the people suffering from systemic racism don't believe you (and I don't blame them) and it sounds like you're basically glossing over their problems. "Racism will magically go away if we restore power to the working class" could, I suppose, do that. I don't think so, but I'm open to argument. However, it's often deployed as a panacea to everything -- and feels like you're simply ignoring a problem to focus on your pet solution. Sort of like the running joke that the GOP's answer to all problems is take two tax cuts and call me in the morning, I'd imagine hearing "class" as a solution to every problem you come up with seems more like someone has an agenda and your problem is a useful excuse to talk about their pet project.
    • AvatarSaul Degraw in reply to JS on Voting for Nothing For the Last TimeThe raced base v. class based is a tough issue for the progressive left to solve. i get that a broad class based politics has intuitive appeal but as you note, it is not how Americans tend to see themselves or our analysis of class is intrinsically linked to class. Notice how many people still see working class as a white guy in a hardhat rather than a woman of color who works as a home-health aide. However another part of wanting everything to be class based is that it allows everyone to ignore very tricky questions based on race and society which do not have easy answers or solutions.
    • AvatarPhilip H in reply to DensityDuck on Voting for Nothing For the Last TimeHardly. Most of the time I can make more sense of what George writes then what Jay writes, until someone with the degree in verbal archeology wades through it. Just like I don't expect George to change, I have zero expectation that Jay will change.
    • AvatarDamon in reply to Jaybird on Voting for Nothing For the Last TimeYes, that's always been the alleged claim.
    • AvatarChip Daniels in reply to Oscar Gordon on Voting for Nothing For the Last TimeI thought you were the one trying to craft a message to work around racism. I don't think such a thing exists.
    • AvatarSlade the Leveller in reply to Brandon Berg on Weekend Plans Post: Thanksgiving CocoonI like this. Thanks.
    • AvatarOscar Gordon in reply to Chip Daniels on Voting for Nothing For the Last TimeFirst off, you've shifted from racism to "the deserving poor", and while those two arguments overlap, they are not the same arguments. That said, are you trying to sell an idea, or overcome an objection?
    • AvatarSwami on LA County Fadeaway: 3 Week Lockdown Coming MondayThat should "flatten the curve."
    • AvatarDensityDuck in reply to Philip H on Voting for Nothing For the Last Timelol You agree with him, so he's clear this time.
    • AvatarDensityDuck on Voting for Nothing For the Last TimeI'm rather surprised that everyone's forgotten Biden and the DNC insisting on in-person voting in the Wisconsin primary. As someone pointed out on Twitter, that was when Sanders really gave up, because he realized that the Democrat establishment would literally kill people to stop him getting the nomination.
    • AvatarJaybird in reply to Chas M on Voting for Nothing For the Last TimeMinorities?
    • AvatarDensityDuck in reply to Saul Degraw on Voting for Nothing For the Last Time"There is no universal support for progressive policies in this country right now. " Florida voted for Trump, and for an increased minimum wage. There's plenty of support for progressive policies. What there isn't is support for every single progressive policy, and progressives don't want you to pick and choose which of their policies they like; they want a package deal, they want you to take your medicine along with the candy, they want to you to get poked with the stick before you get the carrot.
    • AvatarChip Daniels in reply to Oscar Gordon on Voting for Nothing For the Last Time"If you want to see the result of leftist policies such as minimum wage and unions, look at Detroit." "If you want to see the result of giving cash aid to single mothers, look at how it has devastated the black family." "Free college will just benefit privileged young females who study medieval poetry"* "Cash aid to single mothers will only benefit irresponsible women and undercut young men's ambition of becoming head of household."* *Misogyny can never be disentangled from racism. I know there will be some here who disagree with any of these being "racist" arguments, but even if we were to ignore the term and just focus on the arguments themselves, what all four have in common is that the beneficiaries of the policy are all assumed to be unworthy somehow; Either lazy union workers, or they are sexually promiscuous, or financially reckless or just dysfunctional in some unexplained way. But the core of the argument is that giving these people greater agency and power would have bad outcomes. But please, and i mean this sincerely, give me a message that will somehow overcome these objections.
    • AvatarMike Schilling in reply to Pinky on Disney’s Enchanted: A Contrast Between Real Love and Fairytale LoveThis is why Lloyd Alexander's Prydain stories are so good. "Orphan boy learns over many years not to obsess over his possible ancestry, and in fact never does learn who his parens were, but becomes the king because he's earned it." And of course Carrot is obviously the rightful king, but instead chooses to be a good cop.
    • AvatarOscar Gordon in reply to Chip Daniels on Voting for Nothing For the Last TimeWell, for starters, before I can work around racism, I have to understand specifically how racism is standing in the way of whatever bit of progressive policy you want. If you can explain it to me in detail, preferably with examples of how it is/would work, I might be able to message around it.
    • AvatarChas M in reply to Jaybird on Voting for Nothing For the Last TimeYep. Sometimes. That's life and politics dude. Maybe buy an electric car and stove and put the oil companies out of business so they can't influence your Senator? You know, do your part. Jebus, I get so impatients with this shitte. "Fall in love in the primaries, but fall in line in the general." Such and easy thing to remember and do that even the morons on the right can figure it out. I voted for Paul Tsongas, then Clinton. If you bought the media/right-wing line on Al Gore, that's your own dumb fault. Dean - the most energetic and intelligent party builder of the past 25 years - then Kerry. Barry, then, Barry. Warren, then Biden. It's not hard. Yes, Bernie is probably the closest to my actual Dem Socialist ideals than any other candidate, but he's a terrible leader and politician. I couldn't actually even get myself to vote for him in the primaries because I just couldn't love him, or his approach. But if he'd won? Of course I'd do everything I could to elect him. But then he'd lose the general in a landslide, and you know who would get the blame?
    • AvatarJS in reply to Saul Degraw on Voting for Nothing For the Last TimeSander's biggest problems are, first, a lifetime of being a politician in Vermont. No state is really scalable to the rest of the nation, but his entire experience as a politician as to what does and doesn't work is pretty....localized. Two runs for President, each failing the exact same way, is pretty indicative that he either has no interest or no ability to expand his message and reach. The second, and this is where a lot of progressives falter, is in insisting on a class-based lens in a society that does not really think of itself in class-based terms. I don't think they're totally wrong -- that lens is entirely useful, quite valid, and could lead to a number of solutions. But it's also orthogonal to a society that really does not see itself grouped that way. Rural versus urban? Sure. Heartlands versus coast? Sure. Race? Sure. But even bare basics like "working class" is a heavy lift -- useful for polling, but we're more likely to use the term 'blue collar' and 'white collar' to divide ourselves, even when both groups are quite often working class.
    • AvatarPinky in reply to Chip Daniels on Disney’s Enchanted: A Contrast Between Real Love and Fairytale LoveIf the classic princess story is "poor girl becomes a princess though marriage", the classic prince story is "poor orphan boy is really the prince". It's everywhere from King Arthur to Harry Potter. There can be a lot of overlap between the stories, too, like in the case of the princess and the frog (concealed prince, poor girl becomes princess) or Snow White (concealed princess). Both the sudden prince and sudden princess stories can have the character earn their advancement, but it's not necessary.
    • AvatarJS in reply to CJColucci on Voting for Nothing For the Last Time"Marrying Socratic Method with Devil's Advocacy is just trolling, but it's even worse when you're bad at both of them"?
    • AvatarPhilip H in reply to Jaybird on Voting for Nothing For the Last TimeCorrect. The Nazi Party was full on facist with a veneer of nationalism.
    • AvatarJaybird in reply to Damon on Voting for Nothing For the Last TimeThat wasn't *REAL* socialism.
    • AvatarDamon in reply to Chip Daniels on Voting for Nothing For the Last Time"Same goes to government assistance to dairy farmers (don’t you dare call it welfare) or government make-work jobs such as defense contracting." While there are legitimate reasons to subsidize food production or the armed forces, it IS a subsidy. I wouldn't call it welfare, but meh. And I have first hand experience with both of these examples. I remember listening to farmers bitch about how much less money they were getting not to bring their crops to market at the same time pulling libertarian's phrases about how gov't needed to say out of the people's way. I was 17 at the time and noticed the hypocrisy. "We often imagine that leftist economics and racial hegemony don’t fit together, but they actually do." I do seem to recall a good example of that. You know...the Nazi party was a socialist party and they were all banging on racial unity.
    • AvatarChip Daniels in reply to Oscar Gordon on Voting for Nothing For the Last TimeCan you offer an example of "crafting your marketing to work around racism"?
    • AvatarJaybird in reply to Chip Daniels on Voting for Nothing For the Last TimeYou can't sell the idea of progressive vision in California. Why do you think that you'd be able to do it in Alabama?
    • AvatarOscar Gordon in reply to Chip Daniels on Voting for Nothing For the Last TimeThe problem with "Everything is Racism" is that you can't simply wave away racism. If racism is blocking your ideas, then you need to craft your marketing to work around racism. But I guess whining about it is more fun that doing the work of making it palatable to the center.
    • AvatarChip Daniels in reply to LeeEsq on Voting for Nothing For the Last TimeYes, probably so. I know there was this book floating around a while back called "When Skateboards Will Be Free" about a kid growing up in a leftist household, and how they had this absurd notion of what political action would be like. Specifically how a lot of revolutionaries(of both left and rightwing varieties) think, that Come The Revolution everything we like will come about, but somehow all the things we dislike will magically vanish. Or in a less dramatic version, we can have socialized medicine but no one will pay more taxes. Or we will have a free market in health care but no one will be turned away for lack of money.
    • AvatarPhilip H in reply to Chip Daniels on Voting for Nothing For the Last TimeObviously I disagree. And here's a great case as to why - hardly anyone on the left sells "Green New Deal" ideas as economic concepts and answers to the steep decline of America's middle class in former manufacturing areas. Just look at the employment data for wind, solar and coal for the last ten years. Pitch wind and solar as the creators of good jobs they are, with environmental benefits, and you get more people to come around. Keep pitching them as answers to the slowly rolling climate crisis and no one will bite.
    • AvatarPinky in reply to Saul Degraw on Voting for Nothing For the Last TimeWanting something different without clarity about what is characteristic of fussing babies and/or divided electorates.
    • AvatarChip Daniels in reply to Philip H on Voting for Nothing For the Last TimeThe idea that "if only we sold the idea" of progressive vision then it would meet with overwhelming success is enticing but overlooks a lot of the complexities of American political culture that prevents that from happening. Specifically the power of racism and misogyny to cause the needed coalitions to splinter apart. The New Deal and Great Societies themselves are great examples of the limitations of this. In order to appease various factions like the Dixiecrats, the New Deal had to be carefully crafted to reserves its benefits for white males. And when the Great Society programs like AFDC appeared to be flowing towards inner city black people, "welfare" suddenly became an epithet. Even right here and right now, we can hear self-described "populist" conservatives speak bitterly of "elites" and "corporate media" and how the government needs to Do Something About It. Yet their wish list of government control over corporations is carefully tailored to just the exact remedy (Somethingsomething 230) which will deliver a benefit to them and them only. Same goes to government assistance to dairy farmers (don't you dare call it welfare) or government make-work jobs such as defense contracting. We often imagine that leftist economics and racial hegemony don't fit together, but they actually do.
    • AvatarLeeEsq in reply to Chip Daniels on Voting for Nothing For the Last TimeMillions of Americans hated Trump for aesthetic reasons and because he is trashing the mechanisms of the Federal government and voted accordingly. They then went and voted Republican down ballot. But a lot of them also approved of liberal ballot measures. My take away is not only the American electorate very polarized, they are really confused about what they want. A lot of Americans seem to want a United States equivalent of Disraeli's idea of a sound government being "Tory men and Whig measures." Millions of Americans want Democratic policy but implemented by Republican politicians even though that isn't going to happen.
    • AvatarChip Daniels in reply to Saul Degraw on Harsh Your Mellow Monday: ‘Tis The Season to be HarshingThat isn't an isolated thing, either. I've seen variations of that whole "Domina/ enslaved male" thing floating around under variations of "This is the future liberals want". It alternately hilarious and a disturbing window into the insecurities of many conservatives.
    • AvatarSaul Degraw on Voting for Nothing For the Last TimeMy preferred candidate during the primaries was Elizabeth Warren. I would have loved to see Elizabeth Warren become President and trash Trump's ass in November but this was not to be. Instead, she performed poorly in the primaries and her main base seemed to be liberals with graduate degrees. But I gladly and happily voted for Biden during the general election and am not disappointed by his Cabinet picks so far. They are experts and often career civil servants with strong senses of public service. I think Chip is right. There is no universal support for progressive policies in this country right now. At least not consistent ones. California voted overwhelmingly for Biden and the Democrat but also gave the odious Prop 22 a victory, refused to end the ban on affirmative action, and also did not separate commercial property from Prop 13. Florida voted for a very slow raise to the minimum wage but also went Republican because of a successful attempt to define Biden as a socialist. One of the things I see is that, at least for the online, there is a broad social discontent in all factors of American politics but this leads to people making decisions that are not strategic like jumping up and down for Medicare for All or bust when NHS style medical health care is not popular on the specifics and there are other paths to universal health care. Elite overproduction might be a reason for this discontent and it is not just a U.S. phenomenon.
    • Avatargreginak in reply to Jaybird on Voting for Nothing For the Last TimeNice simple declarative sentence.
    • AvatarSaul Degraw in reply to Philip H on Voting for Nothing For the Last TimeThat is not true. If the Democratic Party wanted what Bernie was selling, it would have nominated but he was not. Maybe he came closer to others but his appeal in 2020 was probably more accurate because he got a lot of the not-Hilary vote in 2016. Biden is a lot more progressive than people give him credit for. He is the first President-elect in my lifetime to denounce the death penalty for example.
    • AvatarJaybird in reply to Pinky on Voting for Nothing For the Last TimeI could not possibly agree more.
    • AvatarMike Schilling in reply to Oscar Gordon on Guys, Guys: Inclusive Language Is Important, But Let’s Not Warp A Word’s MeaningFalwell Sr. remains the template for the Christian Right. Falwell Jr. is just a sleazy grifter.