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    • AvatarJoeSal in reply to Chip Daniels on The Dark Road of CensorshipMeh, them amateurs stopped shootin' after just a few years and didn't really solve the problem. The ME taught us to fight for thousands of years until we have buildings with more bullet holes than wall, and how to hold really bitter grudges. This whole cultural exchange thing is going to be awesome!
    • AvatarJoeSal in reply to Dark Matter on The Dark Road of CensorshipYeah, and now that we can read regular text, there is an entire different format for legal text that requires the new legal priests. It's just this same thing over and over.
    • AvatarJaybird in reply to Marchmaine on The Dark Road of CensorshipHotep Jesus wrote a lovely little essay about banning porn that I pretty much agree with. As for your 1-4... yeah. I pretty much agree with that sort of thing, I guess, even as I think "that won't work". But I can see what it's going for and I agree with what it's going for.
    • AvatarDark Matter in reply to JoeSal on The Dark Road of CensorshipThe rules people lived by could probably have fit on a piece of paper with room left over. Knowing the text of the Bible, even just the highlights like "don't kill" is pretty useless in practice because it can and will be spun to mean whatever the Priests in charge want it to mean. For example don't kill or steal doesn't apply to Indians if you want their land and so forth. Agreed about the Marx Bible however, that really is a religion pretending to be a system of government/economy.
    • AvatarDark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels on Holiday Reminder: 3 Ways America Could Care for It’s Veterans BetterIt is actually more expensive that medical treatment and housing assistance; Yes, there are aspects to this which involve gov power and money. Yes, they even should be done. No, that doesn't imply this is entirely a fixable problem. The gov has a budget, the amount of money we're willing to spend is (I suspect) less than what a true total fix would entail. And no, "housing assistance" only works if there is housing. That last part is seriously important, if you structure the market so that it's impossible to build, then you get the most bang for your buck by fixing that rather than throwing money at the problem. Case in point, California is going to spend a Billion dollars to build homes for the homeless... but at $600k a pop that won't go far. A huge part of the solution is to get the gov to do a lot less in terms of obstruction (which probably has a cost of around zero or less since it'd create a lot of economic activity).
    • AvatarChip Daniels in reply to JoeSal on The Dark Road of CensorshipIt is therefore puzzling why tens of thousands of Americans in 1776, and again in 1860, felt the need to rise up in violence to overthrow the non existent government.
    • AvatarJoeSal in reply to JoeSal on The Dark Road of CensorshipMaybe that is the moral mirror, if the early Marxist bumped up against some nasty authoritarian religious order people, maybe they felt they needed to mirror that to equalize a authoritarian escalation.
    • AvatarJoeSal in reply to Dark Matter on The Dark Road of CensorshipWell i would say literacy and will to power are probably the two mechanisms. The old religious orders had few and pretty simple rules, and only a few that a commoner would learn to read or put to memory. Pretty much the rest of script was held by the priests to interpret and voice as needed. Even in protestant america, the ten commandments were the simple rules. The rules people lived by could probably have fit on a piece of paper with room left over. It may be informative to consider that in context to what happened to the quantity of rules that occurred after Marx reached our shores. Marxists basically produce a secular marxist statist bible everywhere they show up in the geography. They have to have the new bible to replace the old one, to justify the expression of social authority. If the social objectivity of the bible didn't mention anything about gay, (and fewer authoritarian busy bodies) we would probably have less conflict.
    • AvatarChip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter on Holiday Reminder: 3 Ways America Could Care for It’s Veterans BetterWhich is why I keep coming back to the fact that there is no solution which doesn't involve massive doses of government power and money. Right now I see the LAPD and the city jail function as defacto mental health ward, at enormous cost to taxpayers. It is actually more expensive that medical treatment and housing assistance; But as I mentioned in the police thread, the public prefers to spend ten dollars on police rather than one on treatment.
    • AvatarAaron David on The Dark Road of CensorshipBanning porn is as stupid an idea as hate speech. Different direction, but just as bad. There are legitimate things that the gov't is there to deal with. And these are actual crimes; exploitation of minors, rape, violence, etc. Porn, in and of itself, is none of those things. It is speech though. Which is protected, and that protection must always be fought for against such dangers as these. And frankly, no matter the damage to any group that porn may cause, it is lessor damage than censorship is in society.
    • AvatarJoeSal in reply to North on The Dark Road of CensorshipBiblical objectivity existed long before the concept of right and left. Correct me if I'm wrong, but secular objectivity would be even younger in concept than individual sovereinty. That maybe why we ended up with the two older concepts joined to battle the newer one. This may be the current convention, but it doesn't at all parse where the manifestations come from. To do that on the right and the left i add the y-axis as seen in the political compass. The way I see it the left high y-axis expression of social ordering is focused on imposing control over the entire faction or factions. This is different than the right high y-axis expression in that control is imposed individually. The people who would make laws and rules to control would be a expression of the left. The individual that will personally impose control is a expression of rightwing authoritarianism.
    • AvatarDark Matter in reply to JoeSal on The Dark Road of CensorshipA lot of this is fueled by technology, specifically transportation and communication. The car meant that people could leave, not only their parent's house to somewhere without supervision, but the entire town. Communication means would be lovers can locate each other, be they Gay or whatever.
    • Henrietta Lowellfillyjonk in reply to North on Everything I Ever Needed to Know I Learned on Sesame Street"1-2-3 4-5-6 7-8-9 10-11-12 Ladybugs came, to the ladybug picnic!" Another one I remember well from my childhood, and which I sometimes even feel a bit as an adult is the "Somebody come and play, somebody come and play today, somebody come and smile the smiles..." (That song really summed up what I felt as a child - I was often lonely, I lived on a street with few other children my own age, and even at that, i didn't have a lot of schoolfriends)
    • AvatarOscar Gordon in reply to North on UPS Truck Hijacked. Hijackers Shot, Killed. UPS Truck Driver Shot, Killed. Bystander Shot, Killed. Passive Voice Used.People in the military don't have Unions. New rule, if you are allowed to carry a gun for the government, you don't get a union.
    • AvatarInMD in reply to JoeSal on UPS Truck Hijacked. Hijackers Shot, Killed. UPS Truck Driver Shot, Killed. Bystander Shot, Killed. Passive Voice Used.Sorry for taking so long to respond, it's a mostly disagree, at least if leviathan is the feds. They haven't helped things with their incentives and sale of military surplus but most law enforcement is county/municipal and most of these problems could be greatly curbed at that level (and virtually all at the state level) of government.
    • AvatarOscar Gordon in reply to Dark Matter on UPS Truck Hijacked. Hijackers Shot, Killed. UPS Truck Driver Shot, Killed. Bystander Shot, Killed. Passive Voice Used.Just to be clear (and we'll see if bodycam footage bears this out), the robbers shot at the police at the store, but did not open fire when boxed in by traffic (i.e. a new location far removed from the original site). So the police surrounded the truck and immediately opened fire on it, before taking fire themselves, and before they had done anything to clear other motorists out of the area, or even attempted to secure the surrender of the robbers? Do we even know if the robbers discharged their weapons at the police at that time? Or did the police just let loose the moment they bailed out of their cars? I see it this way. If the robbers stopped, got surrounded, and the robbers started shooting at the police, I can see the police shooting back, although they really should have focused more on getting motorists out of the line of fire, rather than using them or their vehicles as cover for an exciting gun battle. Because they robbers weren't going anywhere, their vehicle was penned in, they only way they were leaving was on foot. Also, they had a fecking hostage! The safety of the general public was a non-issue, but the safety of those motorists and the hostage was at risk, and many times more so should the police start throwing high velocity slugs fecking everywhere! However, if the robbers never got a shot off, then the cops straight murdered four people, two of them innocent, because they were all hot and bothered that someone shot at them and ran away. Either way, having 20…
    • AvatarBurt Likko on Lay Down Your Marker: Impeachment1. When will the Impeachment Vote itself be held? December. Before the holiday recess 2. What will the numbers be in the House? 231 Democrats for impeachment. 197 Republicans, 2 Democrats, and Independent Justin Amash against. Articles pass, 231-200. Numbers will be identical for both proposed articles. 3. What will the numbers be in the Senate? All 53 Republicans and Democrat Joe Manchin will vote to acquit. 44 Democrats and both Independents will vote to remove. Identical vote on both articles. Result: 54-46 acquittal. And at that point, the table is set for the election in November.
    • AvatarInMD in reply to Marchmaine on The Dark Road of CensorshipIt's a non-starter. You can't build the architecture of the police state and expect people not to try to capture its power to their own ends. The whole idea is a concession that I'd think no social conservative wants to make- that their convictions are too weak to stand on their own merits, without the help of an omnipresent state and weak willed or amoral tech firms.
    • AvatarLeeEsq in reply to greginak on The Dark Road of CensorshipThis isn’t going to end well. I think that many Pro-Palestinian groups to engage in some or even a lot of casual anti-Semitism. Jewish students have been protesting this for years before Trump became President. At the same time, Trump is not the person I want to fight this issue because he will taint it. People will be able to ignore the very real anti-Semitism because of Trump’s taint.
    • AvatarGeorge Turner in reply to Jaybird on Lay Down Your Marker: ImpeachmentOh! I'd forgotten about that. I'd say it's likely the impeachment vote, probably in December because Nancy is in a panic, narrowly fails because the expected Democrat no votes from freshmen in Trump districts is buttressed by a few who argue that passing the measure, since the Senate isn't going to remove Trump, would just allow McConnell, Grassley, Graham, and others to turn the Senate Trial into what the House Democrats would describe as a "witch hunt" or "circus". However, if Nancy thinks that might happen, she might delay the vote till January to give her time to try to whip people back into line. But I'm not betting on that, as she knows dragging things out to get a bad Senate outcome might be worse than just losing the vote in the House.
    • Avatargreginak in reply to North on UPS Truck Hijacked. Hijackers Shot, Killed. UPS Truck Driver Shot, Killed. Bystander Shot, Killed. Passive Voice Used.I see unions as shitty and secondary. If we get rid of unions that doesn't change all the other parts of the problem. Changing institutions and cultures is hard, especially very conservative rigid and resistant cultures. If we want different cops we need to train/ retrain them and enforce new rules/expectations. Better leaders need to be promoted. In short, its a long process, not an easy fix. Also if unions are gone there will be plenty of Police Benevolent Associations around channeling the NRA adverts and lobbying hard for what cops want. Plenty of people will donate to them for a wallet card, sticker for their back window (wink wink) and to push for tough on crime policies. Unions are part of the issue but you can't engineer around the significant section of people who want hard ass cops.
    • AvatarNorth in reply to Dark Matter on UPS Truck Hijacked. Hijackers Shot, Killed. UPS Truck Driver Shot, Killed. Bystander Shot, Killed. Passive Voice Used.Agree with Dark. However hard it is to tackle policing problems it becomes ten times as hard when there's a police union involved. Just don't know how you could get rid of them; police love their unions for obvious reasons.
    • AvatarDark Matter in reply to greginak on Holiday Reminder: 3 Ways America Could Care for It’s Veterans BetterInteresting and good to know.
    • AvatarDark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels on Lay Down Your Marker: ImpeachmentThat's only when the Senate and Presidency are held by opposite parties. Even Biden himself, claimed he meant: "Biden responded that his position was and remained that the president and Congress should "work together to overcome partisan differences" regarding judicial nominations.[14]" When the same party holds both the Senate and the Prez, there are no "partisan differences" to overcome.
    • AvatarDark Matter in reply to greginak on UPS Truck Hijacked. Hijackers Shot, Killed. UPS Truck Driver Shot, Killed. Bystander Shot, Killed. Passive Voice Used.If you get rid of unions all those tough on crime people will still be screaming for tough cops. True. However A+B when both numbers are large and positive is always bigger than just B by itself. Get rid of the union and this will be MUCH easier. Whether or not "much easier" means "possible" is unclear, but the union doesn't have a reason to exist other than prevent this sort of thing.
    • Avatargreginak on The Dark Road of CensorshipFree speech warriors unite. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/10/us/politics/trump-antisemitism-executive-order.html?smid=tw-nytpolitics&smtyp=cur
    • Avatargreginak in reply to Dark Matter on UPS Truck Hijacked. Hijackers Shot, Killed. UPS Truck Driver Shot, Killed. Bystander Shot, Killed. Passive Voice Used.Tough on crime voters were a giant thing from the 70's on wards. They are loud and vote. They tend to be older so they get a lot of say. It's a conservative bias to focus on unions rather then the actual people, who sure as hell trend conservative/independent. The tough on crime vote was a big part of R's winning over D's in many states at the fed level from the 70's and 80's. Tough on crime was a part of ramping up the drug war through the 90's. It's still a trope R's throw at D's. If you get rid of unions all those tough on crime people will still be screaming for tough cops. It's not an accident how often juries and judges and DA's side with cops. You dont' change all those things by getting rid of unions.
    • AvatarDark Matter in reply to Philip H on Not the Bi-Partisan Impeachment They Were Looking For...the clearest sign that they valued power above all else. Pot. Meet kettle. Granted, the SC should have stopped with just not letting the Dems count certain votes extra special to try to "find" what they needed to swing the election and handed it back to Florida. An even better solution would have been for Gore to just drop the whole thing since there was no way for him to win by that point, i.e. all outcomes led to him losing, it was just a matter of him picking one. However by my count we had 7 Supremes unable to control their emotions so maybe that's a bridge too far. And second, Trump got to office with 27% of voters. He’s never had a mandate I doubt this would be an acceptable argument if HRC had won with 29% of the voters, or even 27%.
    • AvatarJaybird in reply to George Turner on Lay Down Your Marker: ImpeachmentHey, no disagreeing with people until you lay down your marker.
    • AvatarGeorge Turner in reply to Chip Daniels on Lay Down Your Marker: ImpeachmentIt would hardly matter if Trump decided to delay or not because he'd just appoint Judge Amy Barrett in 2021, and she's fly through Senate confirmation like almost all his other judicial picks.
    • AvatarDark Matter in reply to Philip H on Not the Bi-Partisan Impeachment They Were Looking ForYou need to run on something other than not being Trump. It's an abuse of language to use Hitler analogies and talk about death camps when what you mean is you don't like his politics. A good question is: "How will you make my life better?" The current DNC solution is to eat the rich and give their remains to "the people". In the context of full employment (created by the evil rich that are going to be eaten), that's probably not the best of ideas. Biden, to his credit, stays away from the idea that Amazon has created too many jobs so it's ownership needs to be taken over by the gov via a wealth tax. I think that's why he's going to get the nod. To his discredit I'm not sure after that what he's running on. It's my turn? I'm not Trump, and I'm also not Warren? Obama 3? That last might work but ideally he'd come up with something better after he gets the nod, i.e. "how will he make my life better"?
    • AvatarDark Matter in reply to Oscar Gordon on UPS Truck Hijacked. Hijackers Shot, Killed. UPS Truck Driver Shot, Killed. Bystander Shot, Killed. Passive Voice Used.they know to tread carefully with the elite and their families. Not just cops. My wife is an immigrant, ergo we had to deal with Immigration. Wonderful experience. The agent was friendly, intelligent, competent, helpful, and did a good job. We got walked to the head of lines, we messed up her photo and he pointed this out and had us send him the replacement so he could just swapped it in. I'd rate him 5 stars out of 5. Because I understood who and what I'd be dealing with, and just how fished we were if it went pear shaped, I put a letter from the local Congressman in my wife's application. I can't prove this had a lot to do with my experience. However I am the ONLY person I've ever talked to who had good experiences with them and I talk to a lot of immigrants. The government serves its own interests. This includes every aspect of it. We should never lose sight of that.
    • AvatarDark Matter in reply to Dark Matter on UPS Truck Hijacked. Hijackers Shot, Killed. UPS Truck Driver Shot, Killed. Bystander Shot, Killed. Passive Voice Used.Just so we're all on the same page: At approximately 4:14 pm, Lamar Alexander and Ronnie Jerome Hill robbed the jewelry store, Regent Jeweler at Miracle Mile in Coral Gables, Florida.[3] They held the stores cashier at gunpoint and stole diamonds. The two suspects exchanged gunfire with the store owner during the robbery,[4] injuring one jewelry shop worker... Police were alerted when the store's silent alarm system went off. A minute and a half later, when officers arrived, the gunmen opened fire on the officers who returned fire on the gunmen. The gunmen... carjacked a UPS delivery truck at gunpoint and took the driver hostage... Several police cars pursued the suspects until the UPS truck became boxed in by slow-moving rush hour traffic in Miramar, about 20 miles (32 km) north of the jewelry store.[8] Police then took cover behind the cars of bystanders and opened fire on the suspects.[8] A total of 19 officers engaged the suspects, including thirteen members of the Miami-Dade Police Department. The other six officers were from the Miramar Police Department and the Pembroke Pines Police Department. Four people were killed in the shootout. The two suspects from the robbery, both age 41, were killed by police. The hijacked UPS driver, age 27, and a bystander, age 70, in another car, were also killed.[6] A female store employee was shot and wounded in the initial robbery.[7] (wiki)
    • AvatarDark Matter in reply to DensityDuck on UPS Truck Hijacked. Hijackers Shot, Killed. UPS Truck Driver Shot, Killed. Bystander Shot, Killed. Passive Voice Used.Congratulations, you’ve identified another reason to back off and de-escalate the situation. When a group of criminals start shooting people, we want the police to back off to "de-escalate the situation"? If I'm committing a crime and it goes pear shaped, my best move is to shoot some people so the police will let me escape? You tell me the rules, I'll tell you my actions. These rules seem to encourage things we don't want.
    • AvatarDark Matter in reply to greginak on UPS Truck Hijacked. Hijackers Shot, Killed. UPS Truck Driver Shot, Killed. Bystander Shot, Killed. Passive Voice Used.Get rid of cop unions and those voters will still be there pushing for aggressive cops and screaming about getting tough on crime. The rock we need to move would be heavy but not uphill without the union. Voters get distracted, have other interests, aren't especially focused, and forget. The union is focused, moneyed, works with insiders and is always there. The union's job is to prevent reform and shield their members from responsibility.
    • AvatarDark Matter in reply to JoeSal on UPS Truck Hijacked. Hijackers Shot, Killed. UPS Truck Driver Shot, Killed. Bystander Shot, Killed. Passive Voice Used.I suppose the issue is what level of quality is being produced by a monopoly institution, deploying a monopoly service. Very true... but at the same time we need the whole "monopoly" thing. Societies which don't have a monopoly on the use of force get dysfunctional pretty quickly.
    • AvatarNorth in reply to JoeSal on The Dark Road of CensorshipSure, sure, the right didn't oppose sexual individuality, they didn't lose, they aren't still opposing it today. I could make the same argument about socialism: the Democratic party has always been capitalist, no politically significant portion of the left in the US has ever really pushed nationalizing the means of production, so they didn't get whupped by the right on that question… And yet... and yet... while the left wasn’t and isn't remotely all (or even majority) socialists you do find most of your socialists on the left; dear ol' Comrade Uncle Bernie isn't trying to get the Republican nomination and all the sexual moral scolds still are doing their "we wanna impose our biblical social constructs on everyone" on the right where they’ve always been- they just are more ineffectual than they once were (and are mighty pissed about that).
    • AvatarNorth in reply to JoeSal on The Dark Road of CensorshipI mean religious order, at least the kind that thinks it should inform civil social order, has been firmly parked on the right for the last century. Even if we exclude religiously imposed order the more secular sexual busybody-ness when it comes to infringing on peoples sexual decisions is, in all modern history, primarily a strain of right wing thought. I mean, sure, if ya wanna blame pervasive socialism as crowding out all rival things then you do you, but whatever the reason policing sexuality hasn’t been a left wing shibboleth since it was a universal shibboleth.
    • AvatarLee Ratner on The Dark Road of CensorshipThe story for those interested in it. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7763841/Female-judge-Kentucky-accused-using-court-frat-house-threesomes-drinking.html
    • AvatarJoeSal in reply to Lee Ratner on The Dark Road of CensorshipThe unmentioned would be that there wasn't much government in american history. Almost everything you see today didn't exist.