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    • AvatarPinky in reply to Pinky on Weekend Plans Post: Air Conditioning WeatherSpeaking of games (although I guess it was me speaking of games), Steam had a clever non-promotion last week, called Spring Cleaning. The opposite of a promotion. They put out the suggestion that you dig through your old game collection for something to play. I loved that. In these hard times, don't spend money on us, just have some cheap fun.
    • AvatarJaybird in reply to Marchmaine on 3rd Degree Murder, Manslaughter Charges Brought in Death of George FloydWe used to have corrupt leaders we could be proud of.
    • AvatarMarchmaine in reply to Jaybird on 3rd Degree Murder, Manslaughter Charges Brought in Death of George Floydcould be... I'm not really staking a position... just noting a couple things: "Minneapolis Police Department (MPD) Officers Thomas Lane and J.A. Kueng arrived with their body worn cameras (BWCs) activated and running. " which appears to be the basis for the Arrest warrant and detailed timing. Plus he was having a "breathing event" while standing and prior to the cops piling on him. Presumably this will be evident from the body cams? Which isn't to say there aren't crimes committed here... but getting the facts correct will go a long way in making sure that justice is done and, hopefully, reforms articulated.
    • AvatarOscar Gordon in reply to Doctor Jay on 3rd Degree Murder, Manslaughter Charges Brought in Death of George Floydpositional asphyxia is a thing
    • AvatarNorth in reply to Doctor Jay on Remembering Susan CollinsYeah it's the only substantive thing I can think of too. I suspect a lot of GOP senators secretly were very grateful for her part in steering them clear of that fiasco.
    • Henrietta Lowellfillyjonk on Weekend Plans Post: Air Conditioning WeatherI haven't been out enough (make a trip into an actual grocery is maybe once every 2 weeks at this point) for masks to seem "usual." I don't object to wearing one at all, but it does remind me "there's a pandemic on, so move carefully, be situationally aware, and for God's sake be super polite to the people working in the store") I went for a drive last night. Didn't go anywhere in the sense of a destination where I got out of the car, but took the scenic route to the next town over to the west and drove around for about 40 minutes. Was surprised to see how far my comfort with driving, even on country roads, had declined in the roughly six weeks since I've been out of the county.... No real plans this weekend; still need to do more yardwork before I buy plants and I also want to eyeball another week of case-data before I decide on the prudence of driving an hour's round trip (into a county with more cases than mine) for a good big garden center. This is the "down" time of year for me anyway; in a normal year I'd not be doing that much anyway.
    • AvatarTruth on 3rd Degree Murder, Manslaughter Charges Brought in Death of George FloydVideo now shows not one but THREE officers knelt on him simultaneously. One suspects the ME's report is what is known in the business as "Testilying" and that the "Blue Shield of Silence" has been working overtime again.
    • AvatarKazzy in reply to Jaybird on The Turning of the NarrativeThanks. I saw the first and now see the second. Was wondering if there were others because sadly there seems to be enough deniability with just these two. But seems pretty obvious there is a white guy clad in all black knocking out windows and one (or two?) black guys confront him about it.
    • AvatarDark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels on The Turning of the NarrativeThat's an interesting idea. I like it.
    • AvatarDark Matter in reply to Jaybird on 3rd Degree Murder, Manslaughter Charges Brought in Death of George FloydThat's... a weird one. I just wiki'ed asphyxia and it's basically just lack of air by any method. Also let's continue that quote: The defendant had his knee on Mr. Floyd’s neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds in total. Two minutes and 53 seconds of this was after Mr. Floyd was non-responsive. Police are trained that this type of restraint with a subject in a prone position is inherently dangerous.
    • AvatarChip Daniels in reply to Stillwater on The Turning of the NarrativeJust to to let you know where I'm coming from, I suggest taking police discipline out of the hands of the Police Department entirely, and having all such actions handled by a Civilian Review Board with the power to fire cops and turn them over to the DA for criminal probes.
    • AvatarJaybird in reply to Doctor Jay on 3rd Degree Murder, Manslaughter Charges Brought in Death of George FloydThe joke I saw on the twitters related this to COVID. He died *WITH* a cop's knee on his neck, not *OF* it.
    • AvatarStillwater in reply to Jaybird on The Turning of the NarrativeAny step in that direction is an improvement.
    • AvatarJaybird in reply to Marchmaine on 3rd Degree Murder, Manslaughter Charges Brought in Death of George FloydThe 3rd degree charge is overdetermined (that is: there are many, many things that explain it and removing one explanation leaves the others). Remember when officer Mohamed Mohamed Noor shot Justine Damond (née Justine Ruszczyk)? He got charged with 3rd degree murder too.
    • AvatarJaybird in reply to Stillwater on The Turning of the NarrativeHeck, I'm an enthusiastic supporter of limiting support to pay, vacation, sick time, retirement, etc. But even including paying for representation for cops at disciplinary hearings, just adding a wee bit of fear that has the cops say stuff like "you know what? We can't pay for the lawyer for *THIS*…" on the most egregious cases would be a step in the right direction. Maybe there are cases that are disciplinary in nature where the cop would benefit from additional training rather than surrendering badge/gun. Sure. And that guy getting representation at the hearing is appropriate. It's just that when a cop says something like "I didn't know that I wasn't allowed to (egregious example)" that my Irish gets up. If (egregious examples) went away, that would solve 80% of my problems. 70%.
    • AvatarStillwater in reply to Philip H on 3rd Degree Murder, Manslaughter Charges Brought in Death of George FloydThe asphyxia likely exacerbated those underlying conditions such that it killed him. Restraint alone wouldn’t have done that. "The be sting didn't kill the patient, it was the underlying condition of going into anaphylactic shock after the introduction of bee venom which killed him." "The blunt force trauma of being hit by a car didn't kill the victim. It was the underlying condition of having brittle bones and easily damaged soft-tissue organs which was exacerbated by the impact of the vehicle which killed him."
    • AvatarMarchmaine in reply to Jaybird on 3rd Degree Murder, Manslaughter Charges Brought in Death of George Floyd"While *standing* outside the car, Mr. Floyd began saying and repeating that he could not breathe." I assume the ME would have noted cause of death as Myocardial Infarction if the poor fellow was having a heart attack during the episode? The linked doc is the arresting doc, not the ME report... which the article suggests is still pending? Depending on what the police and DA know, might explain the 3rd degree charge.
    • AvatarDoctor Jay in reply to Jaybird on 3rd Degree Murder, Manslaughter Charges Brought in Death of George FloydIf I have my medical terminology correct "traumatic asphyxia" is something that would result from an obstruction of an airway. Likewise for "strangulation". But that's not what we discussed happening even yesterday. What it was presumed here by both me and veronica was that it was coratid obstruction - loosely known as the "sleeper hold". Also possible is some sort of crazy response from the vaso-vagal system as critical organs that control blood pressure. Is this a dodge by the coroner? Maybe, but maybe not. Carotid obstruction is not well understood by many, many people. Let's look for what they say the cause of death *is*.
    • AvatarJaybird in reply to Philip H on 3rd Degree Murder, Manslaughter Charges Brought in Death of George Floyd"As both a scientific and legal matter an ME can’t claim a cause of death not backed up by physical evidence." I have a problem with this take as it relates to this particular case and I'll tell you why: The ME speculated about intoxicants in Floyd's system. Saying that we have to go with the physical evidence implies that we have to go with the physical evidence. The introduction of speculation about intoxicants opens the door to speculation about the cop's knee.
    • AvatarStillwater in reply to Chip Daniels on The Turning of the NarrativeSure, but why would a union agree to that restriction? I mean, you could legislate it, but it'd have to be across the board and union members (and folks like you 🙂 would go f***ing nuts about government overreach and CB rights and all that.
    • AvatarPhilip H in reply to Jaybird on 3rd Degree Murder, Manslaughter Charges Brought in Death of George FloydThat's not my point. The officer is no doubt 100% guilty of causing this death. But accusing the ME of lying about cause (and thus of cover up) is a trickier thing in as much as scientifically the ME may be correct, and traumatic asphyxia probably has specific symptoms. As both a scientific and legal matter an ME can't claim a cause of death not backed up by physical evidence.
    • AvatarJaybird in reply to Philip H on 3rd Degree Murder, Manslaughter Charges Brought in Death of George FloydTrue, but there is video of him saying that he can't breathe and the knee staying on the guy anyway. Basing this on nothing more than my gut feel: I'm not sure that discussions of the nature of direct causation vs. indirect causation will do a whole lot to assuage the community when it comes to the death of George Floyd and whether his not breathing can be said to have happened at the agency of the cop kneeling on him.
    • AvatarDark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels on The Turning of the NarrativeThat doesn’t logically follow. Even at the height of Jim Crow, only a small number of black men were lynched. On its worst year lynching was 230 (161 blacks). For perspective we have years now when the total number of blacks killed by the police is less than a hundred. So yes, those numbers would show up in our numbers. You’re trying to extract motive from numbers, and that won’t work. If you use the number of dead whites as the baseline, then the number of dead blacks is the same or less after we adjust for percentage of population and number of encounters with the police. It's certainly possible to say its racism every time a black is killed unjustly... but what do you do with the dead whites then? Is that a good description for this data?
    • AvatarChip Daniels in reply to Philip H on 3rd Degree Murder, Manslaughter Charges Brought in Death of George FloydI seem to recall a case where robbers broke into a bank and tied up the elderly security guard and gagged his mouth. He had a deviated septum or something, and ended up suffocating because he couldn't breathe through his nose. The robbers were convicted of murder based on the grounds that their actions directly led to his death, regardless of his underlying condition.
    • AvatarPhilip H in reply to Jaybird on 3rd Degree Murder, Manslaughter Charges Brought in Death of George FloydThe asphyxia likely exacerbated those underlying conditions such that it killed him. Restraint alone wouldn't have done that. So the medical examiner may not be lying scientifically, but s/he may be lying in terms of cascading events.
    • AvatarJaybird in reply to CJColucci on The Turning of the NarrativeCool. I just thought that last part had a handful of parts that were in dispute.
    • AvatarCJColucci in reply to Jaybird on The Turning of the NarrativeI'm not interested in whether you think "the point," whatever you think it is, has been addressed. I don't give homework assignments and I don't take them. Police unions are your hobbyhorse, not mine. You can do whatever research you like, and report what you find to anyone you think will be interested.
    • AvatarJaybird in reply to CJColucci on The Turning of the NarrativeWell, if that's not what's being said, I guess I'll continue to go forward with that sort of thing without issue. I'll worry about what was being said if I run into it again, I guess. (As for Chip, he seems to be on board with limiting the powers of Police Unions to help toxicity fester in Police Departments so... I'm good.)
    • AvatarCJColucci in reply to Jaybird on The Turning of the NarrativeSo I’m in a place where, in response to someone saying that they’ve not seen evidence of X, giving them a paper from a trio of distinguished professors from a distinguished school writing about the existence of X does not meet the standard of providing evidence of X. Take that up with someone who's saying that. I'm not, and, as I read him, neither is Chip -- but he can speak for himself. And then re-read what you think you're responding to.
    • AvatarJaybird in reply to Pinky on Weekend Plans Post: Air Conditioning WeatherIf my glasses didn't steam up, I wouldn't have a problem in the world with the mask. Well, the beard, I guess. I'm sure that right around the time that masks are officially deemed No Longer Necessary (except on flights or during flu season), they'll perfect the whole "steaming up" thing.
    • AvatarJaybird in reply to PROFESSOR ESPERANTO on Weekend Plans Post: Air Conditioning WeatherA storm seems to be gently rolling in right now. Sky is dark and thunder in the distance. It might now be a June thing too.
    • AvatarJaybird on 3rd Degree Murder, Manslaughter Charges Brought in Death of George FloydI linked to this before but I'll link to it again: Medical examiner said they found "no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation" in George Floyd's death https://t.co/yQcLoloQkO pic.twitter.com/0rtSn0ICNQ— Justin Miller (@justinjm1) May 29, 2020 I admit to being suspicious that the medical examiner is lying.
    • AvatarPROFESSOR ESPERANTO on Weekend Plans Post: Air Conditioning Weather> Oh yeah. It does that in June, doesn’t it? I thought that was more of a mid-July to August thing. 4:30 p.m. until six. I could set my watch by it. Air conditioning finally went on here. Only 81° / 27°C / 300 Kelvin but 68% humidity. It's gentle, but I could not abide the weather.
    • AvatarPinky on Weekend Plans Post: Air Conditioning WeatherThe other day I put on a mask and went to the grocery store, and it felt ordinary. It took me longer to adjust to wearing glasses than a mask (although, to be fair, I don't have to wear a mask constantly). Most of the area parks have opened and they haven't been too crowded. I've been avoiding going to Target, but who doesn't? Our local forecast calls for a nice day Sunday, so maybe I'll have a one-man picnic. Saturday is more of an A/C day, so I'll probably be playing video games.
    • AvatarPhilip H in reply to Truth on Minnesota Burningyeah - I actually castigated NBC News on their facebook page for saying protests had erupted because that word creates a sense that it wasn't legitimate. Words matter, and the older I get the more I find journalists really don't know how to use words.
    • AvatarChip Daniels in reply to Stillwater on The Turning of the NarrativeWell if the union was not able to represent an officer at a disciplinary hearing, that would solve the problem, no?
    • AvatarStillwater in reply to Chip Daniels on The Turning of the NarrativeI'm not sure we're in agreement on that. Seems to me what we agree on is that using union power to protect employees who should be fired and barred from rehire is bad.
    • AvatarJaybird in reply to Stillwater on The Turning of the NarrativeI'm sure that a blood test *WAS* done and came up negative. Because if the blood test came up positive, that would have been reported. "While it's true that he may have died, he *DID* have traces of THC in his system." "Is Medical Marijuana legal in Minnesota?" "No further questions."
    • AvatarChip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter on The Turning of the Narrative" If that were true, then we’d have more dead bodies, especially black ones" That doesn't logically follow. Even at the height of Jim Crow, only a small number of black men were lynched. You're trying to extract motive from numbers, and that won't work.
    • AvatarDark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels on The Turning of the NarrativeI don’t why the number of shootings is even relevant here. Number of shootings should give us an idea of the scale of the problem. The number of unjustified shootings is the point. You've been arguing for a racial motive (or effect) on those numbers. If that were true, then we'd have more dead bodies, especially black ones. What seems to be going on is we have a certain level of incompetence/brutality in the police force which occasionally gets people killed. The rate at which people die seems to be proportional with the number of interactions with the police force... however if the victim is black, then it's publicized as racism and if he's white then it's not. It's a problem, for all the opinions, it doesn't seem to be a racial problem... and the scale of this is probably in the dozens of people per year. On a side note, pulling in "decades" of stories is problematic because the police forces seem to have reduced their fatality rates numbers pretty recently. That has had no effect on the media's reporting because they focus on the single worse cases, and something is always the worst.