Freedom of Speech and the Heckler’s Veto

Russell Michaels

Russell is inside his own mind, a comfortable yet silly place. He is also on Twitter.

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268 Responses

  1. Chip Daniels says:

    The Heckler’s Veto reminds me of terrorism, in two ways.
    One is that it is the tool of those not in a position of power, and second, that while it is almost universally condemned, in truth almost everyone has an instance in which they would support its use.

    The heckler is not the one invited to speak; The heckler doesn’t usually have the same stature and prominence of the speaker. Rachel Maddow doesn’t need to heckle Tucker Carlson, or vice versa. The heckler is making a guerilla, asymmetrical attack on the speaker, and while sometimes it is effective, sometimes, like the 9-11 bombings, it backfires and isolates the heckler.

    But like terrorism, everyone can imagine a situation where they would heckle a speaker. Remember that famous 1984 ad for Macintosh computers, where a bunch of enslaved rabble were standing listening to a massive Big Brother image droning on a screen, then a fearless young woman flung a sledgehammer to smash the screen?
    I don’t remember anyone being indignant at the idea of someone interrupting Dear Leader’s speech.
    Or a recent event where Russian tv channels were hacked to show independent news about the Ukrainian war.

    Is anyone here going to scold the hackers for interrupting the government propaganda?

    Because like in politics, the speaker is NOT always speaking in an environment of justice or fairness. Often heckling or bombings is literally the only tool the oppressed people have left.

    The obvious question is, who decides when the situation is justified, and that gets to the heart of what it means to live in a liberal society.

    Who indeed, decides who owns what property? Who was wronged, who is guilty, who is entitled to speak and who isn’t, and what is a “time place and manner”?

    The answer is, we all collectively do, sorta, and its complicated and very often unfair and unjust.

    Sometimes the speaker is the oppressor, and sometimes the heckler is. Sometimes the government is the terrorist, and sometimes the insurgent is.

    The free speech maximalist position has the same problem any rigid ideology like communism has, where it posits a simple solution for complex human problems.Report

    • pillsy in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      Is anyone here going to scold the hackers for interrupting the government propaganda?

      Remember when people scolded companies for refusing to allow a government official to spread propaganda advocating the overthrow of democracy and the Constitution using their own property?

      Yeah, of course they will object, as long as that government propaganda comes from their side.Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      The heckler’s veto remains at its most contentious when you have two sides that see themselves as the underdogs or at least not traditionally powerful. Anything involving Jews and a particular country in the Middle East is really prone to this. Many of us Jews see ourselves as not being part of the traditionally powerful because of our history but others see us as wealthy white people. So naturally Jewish events getting the heckler’s veto can get really contentious.Report

  2. Russell Michaels says:

    I will not be engaging in the comments section here. If you wish to engage with me about this article, please head over to my Twitter page. It is linked in my author page on this very site. See you there.Report

  3. pillsy says:

    I have many objections to this piece, but I’m going to start with the most minor: Michele Malkin didn’t start hanging with white nationalists after 2008. She started writing for VDARE, a white nationalist website, in 2002, and wrote a book that was literally titled In Defense of Internment in 2005, arguing that it is actually fine and good to imprison innocent people based on their race.

    This error matters, by the way, because the reason she got away with hanging away with the Tiki Torch set for so long is because she was part of the Team Red. Attacks would come Left, and Team Red would react with, “Oh you Leftists are always calling people racist just because you disagree with them!”

    And before you say, “Well the Left does do that!” stop and pause.

    Because we did call her a racist because we disagreed with her… about whether it’s good to imprison innocent people on account of their race!

    So it takes almost 20 years after she started hanging with white nationalists, and 15 since she wrote a book about how it’s good to imprison innocent people, for allegedly respectable Rightward orgs to acknowledge it. Because she was part of the team.

    And that’s what barring people from Malkin from speaking at your events, refusing to publish their books and articles, and generally “silencing” them, intends to accomplish: preventing them from getting an in-group that will defend them in spite of the absolute garbage they spew. Yes, it is an attempt to keep their ideas from being “debated”, but in this case the ideas being debated–like that it’s good to imprison innocent people based on their race–are being defended not because they are defensible, but because they’re being uttered by one of the team.

    Now the intent and objective behind keeping Malkin from being heard is in no means a justification for any specific tactic or action being taken to accomplish that end–this is one of those really basic things that constantly needs to be reiterated in discussions like the one I’m sure this will turn out to be.

    But without understanding their objectives, you are not going to make much headway persuading people who disagree with you.Report

  4. pillsy says:

    The Heckler’s Veto is a very easy concept to understand but those with political, cultural, and/or economic power like to pretend it doesn’t exist as long as the hecklers are on their side.

    This is not the Heckler’s Veto.

    The Heckler’s Veto is when someone who has the power to shut down speech does so on the grounds that allowing the speech to continue would be dangerous because it would inspire disruptive (and possibly) violent conduct on the people hearing it.

    It’s extremely bad because it incentivizes threats, disruption, and violence because they become a more effective of silencing, and further because it incentivizes worse and more extreme forms of objection over more mild ones, and it shifts the responsibility on maintaining order off of the shoulders of people who have the authority to do so.Report

  5. LeeEsq says:

    Another issue with the heckler’s veto involves the right to listen. This is rarely brought up in these debates. The speaker’s audience generally went to the event because they want to see and hear the event even if they didn’t necessarily agree with it entirely. The heckler or hecklers are disrupting the right to see and listen to a particular event because they think it shouldn’t happen for whatever reason.

    I’m not generally a fan of the heckler’s veto but I can’t think of a good way to stop it. A free speech absolutist stance would actually be pro-heckler’s veto because the heckler is also engaging in their free speech rights by actively disagreeing at the time of the speaker or event they oppose. This is also free speech.

    The best argument against the heckler’s veto isn’t a free speech argument but that it is really ineffective at doing what is supposed to do. This is because it just creates sene of persecution in the people that you are trying to stop. The usual response to the heckler’s veto is for the speaker and those that agree to double down and see that they are right and that the enemies that are trying to silence them are doing so because of this. I also think that badly executed heckler’s vetos end up looking contextless and confusing. I’ve seen heckler’s vetos where I generally agree with the heckler that just are dumb because of poor execution.Report

    • pillsy in reply to LeeEsq says:

      The speaker’s audience generally went to the event because they want to see and hear the event even if they didn’t necessarily agree with it entirely. The heckler or hecklers are disrupting the right to see and listen to a particular event because they think it shouldn’t happen for whatever reason.

      This gets to the heart of it. Often, the message that the hecklers object to is the message that, “This speaker deserves to be here, and deserves the respect that’s implied by welcoming him to speak,” and that “often” becomes “virtually always” in cases where the controversy is over a speaker at a college campus.

      Sometimes that is, in fact the important message being sent by the hosts. In fact, I’d say that was pretty close to the explicitly intended message of the YLS talk, because it was about a member of the American Humanist Alliance working with a member of the Alliance Defending Freedom, Kristin Waggoner, to support the lawsuit of a student who was barred from passing out religious pamphlets on a public college campus, in defiance of the First Amendment.[1]

      The thing is, the ADF is a reprehensible hate group, which in addition to supporting all the normal anti-LGBT trash that we’re supposed to pretend isn’t bigoted due to Rightward PC, also supports the criminalization of homosexuality, a genuinely indefensible view that really should get people who espouse it barred from polite society.

      And the message of the talk is that you can productively work with such people to do actually good things.

      And based on what happened in that case, the message of the talk was correct.

      Yet there was no need to actually have Waggoner there to deliver that message. Surely any number of people of people involved in that case could have delivered the message about her (including the AHA representative) without delivering the message alongside her.

      There are arguments I can see on both sides here, and the call is more than close enough that the disruption of the speech fucking sucked and I get more irked about it the more I think about it.

      But there were costs to inviting her, and I also can’t fault students who took her presence as an insult, as long as they found better ways to express it.

      [1] The whole legal aspect of the suit strikes me as very interesting, but I am not a lawyer and don’t believe I could give an explanation that does it justice. The SCOTUS found in favor of the student 8-1, with Roberts as the lone dissent!Report

    • John Puccio in reply to LeeEsq says:

      In my mind, a free speech absolutist is typically Libertarian.

      Libertarians believe their rights end where someone else’s begin, and vice versa.

      The heckler’s veto is an infringement on the freedom of association, so I don’t agree with your second graph.

      Or perhaps you had another political profile in mind when you talk of free speech absolutist?Report

      • Philip H in reply to John Puccio says:

        If that’s true – and I am not convinced it is, what are a libertarian’s responsibilities with regards to the Heckler’s veto?Report

        • John Puccio in reply to Philip H says:

          I’m not sure what part of what I said you think may or may not be true. And I don’t understand what you mean by “responsibilities,” but I would suggest a libertarian would support a heckler but not his veto. Again, freedom of association is just as fundamental as freedom of speech.

          I still don’t know what a “free speech absolutist” is.Report

  6. InMD says:

    I’m going to make a comment that is very open to multiple conservative and progressive relativist attacks but I still think is worth making. Chris mentioned this on the Burt’s post, and I think the linked popehat piece sort of got at this, but I think both are right that it is probably not possible to have this conversation in a value neutral way. The value in question is less about free speech and more about the marketplace of ideas. I think the reason a lot of people, myself included, wince at de-platforming is less on freedom of speech grounds and more that it represents a rejection of the idea that it is good and desirable to have a very broad marketplace of ideas. Both illiberal left and illiberal right seem to implicitly or not so implicitly be taking the position that it is not.

    I think it is possible to have both a broad marketplace of ideas and a possibility of a heckler’s veto on a sort of free speech/no privilege for being the first speaker grounds. The catch is that for that to work the veto needs to be a legitimately very rare occurrence, not a go-to tool. Something on a similar level of civil disobedience, where everyone gets that it’s wrong under the vast majority of circumstances, but every once in a great while the norm is violated in service of a particular, very narrow point. The person who does it takes their slap on the wrist and the broader world then compartmentalizes the incident as a product of a particular moment in time and returns to the regular rules.

    What I think is dangerous is getting to a point where the norm-breaking tool is being used frequently, and almost by definition, in bad faith. Now many will no doubt remind me that a number of the big deplatforming incidents have been in response to conservatives acting in bad faith by bringing some low educational value speaker to a university in hopes of provoking just such a reaction. I think that is true in some circumstances but it’s also true that the de-platforming/veto is also often enough being used in bad faith, maybe more for virtue signaling than anything else. If the speech of speaker 1 isn’t without consequence I don’t see how we can concede that the speech of speaker 2 somehow is, which is really what’s being suggested whenever deplatforming is defended.

    So my conclusion is that free speech and a marketplace of ideas can probably function well enough as long as deplatforming or a hecklers veto mostly sits in the shed gathering dust. We need to be willing to stand up for a free speech value, and also a marketplace of ideas value, as both worth defending. Further, as responsible citizens, we need to conscientiously avoid creating situations that put them in conflict, to the greatest extent we can, lest we endanger both.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

      Yeah. The whole culture thing.

      If you’ve got a culture that doesn’t believe in a broad marketplace of ideas, it doesn’t matter if you’ve got a first amendment.

      If you’ve got a culture that does, it won’t matter if you’ve got government censors.Report

      • pillsy in reply to Jaybird says:

        A culture with a broad marketplace of ideas and government censors means that you have cops who have the ability to break people who step out of line using their ideas as a pretext. Participation in the marketplace of ideas, no matter how broad, becomes a luxury of people who cops either don’t hate, or who have enough power and privilege to deter the cops.

        C.f. what it looks like where you have a culture that believes marijuana use is fine, but it remains illegal.Report

    • Greg In Ak in reply to InMD says:

      We have a wider and wilder marketplace of ideas now then any time in history. More people can shout out their pie hole at people all over the world now. We have all the ideas and speech out there. Every stupid idiotic thing that can be said is being said by someone right now somewhere on the web.

      People being able to speak to people freely is doing great in general. I agree there are some dangers none of which is people not having a place to speak. Deplat and HV are super rare which is good.

      The thing about a marketplace , since that is the analogy people love, is that every store in the mall does not have to sell the same things. Let Specner’s sell the black light poster and Sbarro’s the lame pizza. Just like the internet where racist dbags can have plenty of places to talk crap but the OT doesn’t have to print them and i can ignore them all i want.Report

      • InMD in reply to Greg In Ak says:

        I don’t have a problem with exercise of editorial discretion or even an editorial stance. My beef is mostly limited to the (particularly public) university context.Report

        • Greg In Ak in reply to InMD says:

          One seeming constant of these debates is the over heated throwing out a million examples but when all the dross gets weeded away there is not a lot left. I’m not a fan of the HV but there are very few examples of it for a country this size.

          We have plenty of free speech and very little HVing of it.Report

      • pillsy in reply to Greg In Ak says:

        Yeah, and the more ways there are for delivering those messages, the more meaning the venue has as a message unto itself. If you can hear Wingnut McFuckface on their podcast, or see them on YouTube, or read their blog or Twitter feed, or actually have a virtual lecture on Zoom, in addition to all the other traditional ways they can reach you, the argument that it’s necessary for them to be present on campus for you to hear them is no longer persuasive, and argues all the more strongly that their presence there is about signaling respect for them.Report

    • Mike Schilling in reply to InMD says:

      What I think is dangerous is getting to a point where the norm-breaking tool is being used frequently, and almost by definition, in bad faith.

      Like the Senate filibuster.Report

    • pillsy in reply to InMD says:

      If the speech of speaker 1 isn’t without consequence I don’t see how we can concede that the speech of speaker 2 somehow is, which is really what’s being suggested whenever deplatforming is defended.

      Yeah, this is what my counterargument is focused on: the speech itself isn’t of consequence, the invitation–on the part of the student group or administration–is.

      At this point I think one of the things that separates me from you, and many of my interlocutors here, is that I believe the fundamental importance of free speech is that it allows people to build (political) power by assembling movements and expressing dissent, and the benefits of discourse that occasionally allows us to toss out bad arguments in favor of good ones are closer to a happy accident than a strong justification.

      Indeed, I believe the whole “marketplace of ideas” approach allows you to lop off big chunks of free speech with relative ease, in ways that have a lot of unpleasant historical precedent.Report

      • InMD in reply to pillsy says:

        I don’t really see how your premise gets to your conclusion. If the importance of free speech is to build a social movement to crush other movements with tools like a heckler’s veto (as opposed to persuading a critical mass that certain things are wrong/aren’t worth listening to) that isn’t tossing out arguments. It’s just might makes right which has a much worse history.

        However I also see free speech differently. My view is that it along with other components of classical liberalism don’t exist for anyone to build power. Coming out of the religious wars of 16th century Europe I see them as creating a social truce. A happy consequence of the truce is that it has opened the door for incredible social and economic flourishing and mass well being, at least compared to all of the history that came before it. As I said in my previous comment, I think the truce can survive probing and occasional violations but it’s isn’t invincible.Report

        • pillsy in reply to InMD says:

          I’m not saying the hecklers are right to heckle; the ends don’t typically justify the means but the ends make sense.

          Shouting down is necessarily within the bounds of free speech–I think it’s close to the boundary–but just that the what’s being objected to is the message sent by speaker 1’s presence, not their speech, and that the hecklers’ understanding of what that presence means is usually closer to correct.

          Freedom of speech does create a kind of truce, but it does so by saying, “Hey, you can have a lot of power that we can’t take away from you so you can protect your political interests, which means you don’t have to shoot us in the face anymore.” Hosting the speaker in these cases is very frequently a way to build or assert that power.Report

          • InMD in reply to pillsy says:

            Got it. So in your view it’s the ‘we are having this event’ in the first place speech that’s at issue.

            I doubt we’re going to totally align on that particular principle, but I guess maybe a more practical question- even if we grant the legitimacy of the heckler(s) in these cases isn’t there also a case for not letting oneself be trolled? I get that’s more of a strategic political question than about the principle of free speech but it seems pertinent given what we now know about how the incidents are going to be litigated in the wider discourse, which for better or worse they are now a part of.Report

            • pillsy in reply to InMD says:

              There definitely is an element of not being trolled and people should consider it very carefully

              In practice effective (re)enforcement of that norm is going to need to happen in parallel with (re)enforcement of norms against trollingReport

  7. Greg In Ak says:

    Absolutism sounds righteous as hell but it is worthless. I have no problem as a pro free speech person saying some things are past being debated. I’m not going to involve myself is “was slavery a good thing?” “women’s voting: yes or no”
    Thinking should result is some things being found wrong and wasting time talking about them.

    You are using a common rhetorical trick of framing criticisms of someone in the most hyperbolic to paint critics as terrible and without any reasonable criticisms so you can make yourself look better.

    For example Peterson is not worse than Satan. I’m a card carrying liberal who is going on record saying Peterson is NOT THE DEVIL. I’ll be over here awaiting my cancellation. Which of course wont’ come.
    Peterson isnt’ the devil, but he has an immense number of really laughably stupid opinions . He is shallow, pompous and hilariously overrated. But he isnt’ the devil. We good now?Report

    • pillsy in reply to Greg In Ak says:

      Also, like, not for nothing but the guy whose basic message is “Get your house in order before trying to change the world!” had his campaign of activism interrupted because he was placed in a medical coma due to a crippling benzo addiction.Report

      • Russell Michaels in reply to pillsy says:

        Because he was suicidal as his wife almost died of cancer.Report

      • Brandon Berg in reply to pillsy says:

        This is actually really good advice. So many people mistake consequences of their own personal shortcomings for societal problems, and consequently end up going on some misguided crusade to change the world. Not only is this potentially bad for society (if they’ve misdiagnosed the problem they aren’t going to have the right solution) but it’s a distraction from doing the things that could actually improve their lives.

        Don’t tell us you know how to set the world to right if you can’t even figure out how to put your own house in order.Report

        • Russell Michaels in reply to Brandon Berg says:

          Precisely.Report

        • pillsy in reply to Brandon Berg says:

          Upon reflection, I think it is often, but not always, good advice, so yeah, that’s retracted.

          I just think that someone who really should be following the advice is JBP himself. The man has gone through some awful shit I wouldn’t wish on anybody, and is still out there trying to change the world, and it really seems to be doing him no good at all.

          I’m not trying to drag him for being a hypocrite. If he is, I don’t care, and I really don’t think that’s the right word for someone who can’t follow through on something they understand on an intellectual level when they’re dealing with serious mental health and substance abuse problems.

          But I really wish he’d taken his own advice, get healthy, and make it so I can go back to hating him for Being Wrong on the Internet rather than feeling bad for him for being in a really shitty situation.Report

  8. Kazzy says:

    Justine Sacco is still working.

    More importantly, I’ll repeat my question: what are you proposing be done about any of this?Report

    • Russell Michaels in reply to Kazzy says:

      I will write an article called “Who Deserves to Stay Cancelled” that will elucidate this.Report

    • Brandon Berg in reply to Kazzy says:

      Working again, not still working.Report

      • Brandon Berg in reply to Brandon Berg says:

        To clarify, I think this is an important distinction because losing even a year of income is a really heavy price to pay for one silly tweet.

        That said, as badly as the Sacco affair reflects on almost everyone else involved, I do think that there’s just a touch of karmic justice in someone who tweeted out a badly-worded attempt to dunk on racist white strawmen getting smeared as a racist herself because of that tweet.Report

        • Kazzy in reply to Brandon Berg says:

          I agree entirely. But part of the issue is we rarely hear what happens next. The implication of these stories is the person was fired, outcast, and is probably living under a bridge now.

          What actually happens is in most cases, the situation cools down and the person is eventually able to resume a normal life. If I recall correctly, someone here actually linked to a piece she wrote not even realizing it was her and I pointed out, “Hey, that name sounds familiar…” Like, folks here — some of the most tuned in to this stuff — couldn’t even remember her name not long after she was permanently canceled from society.

          So, yes, getting fired has very real percussions even if someone finds work again. And getting fired unjustifiably is even worse. No argument there. But if we’re going to talk about “proportionality” then we need to consider the use of the term “cancelled’ itself, since it gives an impression of permanence which in the vast majority of cases is not at all the case.

          As I said on the other thread, if everything is cancelling than nothing is.Report

  9. pillsy says:

    But here’s the rub: Insiders don’t stay down for long. We know what Jeffrey Toobin did.

    OK, not gonna lie: this was pretty funny.

    Nonetheless:

    Standup comedians typically fall under this rubric.

    What Louis CK did was strictly worse than what Toobin did, and his cancellation was not permanent.

    And in a lot of cases, the “cancellation” just amounts to simple criticism and people deciding they don’t want to watch the comic any more. That’s where a lot of people wound up with Chapelle, and he’s still working.Report

    • Mike Schilling in reply to pillsy says:

      Louis CK hasn’t gotten back to his previous level of popularity and success. Neither has Aziz; he felt compelled to become only a minor character in the most recent season of his TV show. But, as you sat, they’re still working.Report

      • pillsy in reply to Mike Schilling says:

        Did Aziz even suffer formal consequences?

        Like a lot of it seems like people just decided they liked him less after hearing it, which isn’t really the same thing as “cancellation” in any useful sense IMO.Report

        • InMD in reply to pillsy says:

          My recollection of the Aziz Ansari situation was that there was a lot more reluctance or at least debate about whether he was deserving of the same consequences imposed on other men caught in #MeToo scandals.Report

          • pillsy in reply to InMD says:

            That was definitely the case, and I don’t actually recall any formal cancellations of events, shows, etc. that followed as a consequence of the supposed informal one.Report

            • Russell Michaels in reply to pillsy says:

              He doesn’t really tour anymore and his celebrated show took forever to get another season and then he is barely in it.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                Are we certain we know the reasons for all that?Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Kazzy says:

                Even though the allegations were basically a nothing burger, he seems to be fine with being cancelled. If he tried, I’m sure he could come back. I think he just let himself stay cancelled.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                They weren’t in remotely the same league as other #MeToo allegations (and the whole story of how they made it into the public consciousness is kind of murky and it’s not clear they were ever intended as such), but they really cut right at the heart of his raunchy-yet-wholesome brand.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to pillsy says:

                And yet, he’s a non-entity.Report

              • He wrote and directed all of the season 3 episodes, and he was in two of them. So he wasn’t cancelled in the sense that Netflix won’t do business with him or people refuse to work with him, I think it’s what Pillsy said; his public image no longer aligns with the sometimes problematical but basically good-hearted Dev Shah character.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Mike Schilling says:

                He was everywhere before it. And then he fell off the map hard.Report

              • Absolutely, but it’s not a cabal cancelling him; it’s many individual decisions. That’s how things are supposed to work.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Mike Schilling says:

                But it’s weird. He didn’t really deserve it. Most people agreed. But that’s why I said stand up comics are outsiders. They can stay cancelled for relatively minor things. While Toobin can do THAT and be rehired in mere months.Report

              • I’d say it’s because we have a more intimate relationship with people who make us laugh. If we start to find them distasteful, it’s over.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Mike Schilling says:

                And yet Andrew Dice Clay is still around…Report

              • pillsy in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                Andrew Dice Clay’s persona was always, like, the antithesis of wholesome. Different comics have different acts and appeal to their audiences in different ways.

                I think Ansari’s was particularly susceptible to people getting turned off by even borderline bad behavior. Not every set of consumer choices can be reasonably attributed to “cancellation”.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to pillsy says:

                What the hell do Ansari, Louis CK, Dice, or, for that matter, Woody Allen, Kevin Spacey, or Bill Cosby have to do with anything? Clay hasn’t been cancelled. His act has just gone stale. None of the others have been cancelled for any joke they made, or thing they said, or position they took. Sexual assault, exposing oneself, or being a sexually aggressive date aren’t speech. These performers have taken huge hits to their popularity for things they did, not for things they said. And that’s OK. And if it isn’t OK, it’s still not a free speech issue.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to CJColucci says:

                No, they were cancelled for things people said about them. Look over the case of people like Toby Turner for another example.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                No, they were cancelled for things people said about them.

                Like: He drugged and raped me (Cosby)
                Like: He asked if he could masturbate in front of me (Louis CK)
                Like: He sexually assaulted me (Spacey)
                Like: He had an inappropriate relationship with a young woman whom he had raised (Allen)
                Like: He wouldn’t stop when I said no more (Ansari)

                If they had all just STFU, we’d all be enjoying Woody Allen movies, Bill Cosby stand-up, Kevin Spacey movies…..They had to go and tell us these things these guys did to them and spoil it for the rest of us. Strange notion of free speech you’ve got there.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to CJColucci says:

                I was talking about people like Ansari. She didn’t say no, but she regrets consenting. You really want to twist my words.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                The point remains. Ansari wasn’t cancelled because of what he said, but because someone told what he did. Where is Ansari’s free speech implicated? And if it isn’t, what’s the point?Report

              • InMD in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                He is actually a strange example to use since he was arguably ‘cancelled’ back in the 90s, just in a pre-web as we know it, and definitely pre-social media kind of way. It’s only many years later that he has re-emerged, at least as a D (or lower) list celebrity. The schtick he was known for is probably not something he will do again but it would also probably be quaint to try it when even Jersey Shore has faded into the cultural rear view mirror.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to InMD says:

                He was Lady Gaga’s father in “A Star Is Born”!Report

              • InMD in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                I get that but he was also banned by MTV in I think the late 80s or early 90s which was significant at the time and by the mid 90s was deemed too controversial for broadcast or basic cable. He basically disappeared for a very long stretch of time. I’m too young to remember his heyday but old enough to remember hearing retrospectives about it.

                None of this is really to get into the larger questions we’re debating on this and the other posts. I’m just saying you could really point to him as someone who was cancelled by the rules of another era and eventually clawed his way back into the picture, at least on the periphery.Report

  10. pillsy says:

    To the people who don’t like a completely and unrestrained free exchange on the Internet, especially when the people they’re talking to are anonymous, it would be smart to ask them why.

    Because having to defend the idea that the Holocaust actually happened from Nazis is exhausting, unpleasant, often involves real work in order to refute their claims, and is not necessarily a sure thing even when you do all of that successfully, as they use many of the same strategies as Creationists [1] to much, much fouler ends.

    Yet if the claims are left hanging out there, they have a tendency to attract people who , and let the Holocaust deniers build up an in-group that will have their backs.

    Any platform that allows Holocaust deniers to flourish on it is behaving in–at best–a grotesquely irresponsible manner, and even Twitter, which is pretty permissive, will generally ban them.

    [1] Outlined here in a brilliant prank/post by Jaybird.Report

    • Russell Michaels in reply to pillsy says:

      Define “flourish.” Because “any platform” would apply to America. It is not illegal to be a Nazi in America, as long as said awful people aren’t committing actual crimes.Report

      • pillsy in reply to Russell Michaels says:

        America is not a platformReport

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Russell Michaels says:

        Think of how Britain reacted to Oswald Mosely and the British Union of Fascists, or how Meyer Lansky fought the American Bund.

        Lets all imagine that were were there, witnessing those events.
        But lets also imagine that we don’t have hindsight, that we have no idea of what is about to happen in Germany.

        How would we view Lansky and the people who brawled with the BUF in the streets? Is our response only because we do in fact have hindsight, and can’t dispel it?

        My opinion is, there isn’t an easy or clear cut answer. I agree that the public law which outlawed Moseley’s party is draconian, and using gangsters to beat political opponents is the very opposite of democracy and liberal tolerance.

        But then, so is dropping thousands of tons of bombs on civilians. But in both cases, without those actions the world would be a much different and worse place.Report

        • Russell Michaels in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          I think attempting to get blood from a stone, in that trying to get Germany to pay for our war debts, destabilized Germany after WWI and led to the rise of bad things.Report

  11. Kazzy says:

    Where does the heckler’s veto power come from? It is not simply a function of being loud. That is a fundamental misunderstand of the term. Most definitions invoke government power being used to restrict speech the heckler objects to, with the heckling triggering the government action.

    And that is wrong because governmental restrictions on speech are very, very problematic.

    As I said elsewhere, the situation on the college campuses were not Heckler’s Vetos and the primary issue was not the hecklers themselves but the response from the college authorities. They saw fit to allow things to proceed as they did for whatever reasons. THEY chose to allow those hecklers to disrupt events. I don’t think they should have and think colleges should have and enforce codes of conduct at such events. Just like they wouldn’t allow a kid with a whoopee cushion to continually interrupted a professor’s in-class lecture without consequence, they shouldn’t have let these folks do so. But they did. So, really, the issue is with the colleges themselves. They handled these moments very very poorly in my eyes (and in most people’s eyes, I imagine).

    If we’re going to talk about the Heckler’s Veto, we should talk about what it actually is and not just shake our fists with nary a solution for what is irking us.Report

    • InMD in reply to Kazzy says:

      I said on Burt’s post that the source at universities is a failure of nerve (or duty) on the part of faculty and administrators. I still think that’s the case. I would say the biggest issue in play besides the ideology is the evolution from students to paying customers.Report

      • pillsy in reply to InMD says:

        I think the biggest issue in play is the social media panopticon combined with a lot of media class anxieties over discourse that are being projected onto the elite universities that most of the media class attended and want their children to attend.

        I remember all this stuff happening from time to time when I was in school which was a long time. Hell, right when I started grad school there was a spate of lefty college students straight up throwing stuff at conservative speakers, which is obviously much worse than just yelling at them.

        It’s not that it’s not a problem, but it’s an ongoing challenge that students, faculty, and administrators have been handling with more or less aplomb for ages, rather than a crisis.Report

        • InMD in reply to pillsy says:

          Point well taken on both the panopticon and the class elements involved. I went to Giant State Flagship for undergrad and Commuter Public Law School. I do recall activism in undergrad, including provocative right wing types (think anti-abortion activists with a paviolion made from graphic medical images) but the campus and student population was so big and diverse that it would have been really hard for anyone to influence the intellectual climate. Pretty quickly everyone just accepted they were going to see some weird stuff from time to time and adopted a go about your business mentality. Because of the nature of the law school even the K-JD crowd I think very much understood they were there to learn a skill, not change the world, and what limited campus culture there was reflected that.

          Nevertheless I don’t want to be too ho hum about it at the elite level. A lot of these are the people who will one day run the country. A comparison might be the video of serious police violence that goes viral. Usually the specifics are a statistical outlier but it doesn’t mean it isn’t to some degree indicative other troubling issues.Report

          • pillsy in reply to InMD says:

            Yeah one of the reasons I’m more ho hum about it was I remember similar incidents that from my time at Elite University.

            So I view it as an ongoing challenge that’s just part of the deal unless something worse than yelling happensReport

      • Kazzy in reply to InMD says:

        I work in private education (not university level but still). We 100% see families as clients. It’s always been true but now we acknowledge it pretty explicitly.

        The schools that are most beholden to that thinking are those with weak enrollment. They change with every blow of the family winds because they can’t afford to lose anyone. The schools that are least susceptible to the pressure are those with a waiting list. “Don’t like what we’re doing? Door is to the left… we’ll fill the seat before it closes.”

        Maybe universities are structured so differently they can’t apply this thinking but given that damn near every university seems to have a wait list, why is it so hard for them to be principled and not kowtow constantly?Report

        • pillsy in reply to Kazzy says:

          This stuff is an annoying distraction from their real job of raising money from alumni and spending it on parking garagesReport

          • Russell Michaels in reply to pillsy says:

            No, spending it on administrators instead of the classroom. That’s what causes ballooning tuition, beyond how easy it is to get a student loan.Report

            • Kazzy in reply to Russell Michaels says:

              Would love to see you address my point on your misdefining of the heckler’s veto.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Kazzy says:

                From Wiki:
                “In the United States, a heckler’s veto is a situation in which a party who disagrees with a speaker’s message is able to unilaterally trigger events that result in the speaker being silenced.

                In the legal sense, a heckler’s veto occurs when the speaker’s right is curtailed or restricted by the government in order to prevent a reacting party’s behavior. The common example is the termination of a speech or demonstration in the interest of maintaining the public peace based on the anticipated negative reaction of someone opposed to that speech or demonstration.”

                Another source:
                “A heckler’s veto occurs when the government accepts restrictions on speech because of the anticipated or actual reactions of opponents of the speech. The Supreme Court first recognized the term in Brown v. Louisiana (1966), citing the work of First Amendment expert Harry Kalven Jr., who coined the phrase.”
                [Link: https://www.mtsu.edu/first-amendment/article/968/heckler-s-veto%5D

                Now, both sources do note that the phrase is often used to refer to what is described here. So it is not a wholly inaccurate use of the term. But the original term and the legal implications that stemmed from it are very different than its colloquial use… so using the latter to achieve the former is pretty disingenuous, though I recognize that may not be intentional.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                I know that, when I use the term, it includes stuff like “protesters got the guy to withdraw” on top of “protesters got the administration to uninvite the guy”.

                Maybe it’s not the legal definition, but it’s a definition in common enough usage that I don’t think you can say that other people are using the term incorrectly when they are talking about protesters shutting down an event.

                It’s like saying “Hey, a YA publisher yanking a book at the last minute isn’t a Free Press issue. The government didn’t do it!”

                If your idea of the whole “free press” thing goes back to some vague (and imperfectly followed) enlightenment ideal, it’s very much a free press thing.

                If you read the First Amendment and notice that, hey, this thing only applies to Congress! And, through Incorporation, state governments too!!!, well, I suppose you could easily argue it’s not a First Amendment thing.

                But if you see the enlightenment ideals as prior, pointing out that it’s not champagne unless it comes from plains that have been rained on in Spain, you’re going to confuse a lot of people who use the term interchangeably with “sparkling white wine”.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Jaybird says:

                This.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                Fully on board with the idea that words change meaning over time.

                But part of the objection to the Heckler’s Veto is rooted in it’s original definition.

                I feel differently about the OG HV than I do about the colloquial HV. So if you ask how I feel about the HV and I respond based on the OG definition and your argument is based on the colloquial definition, it implies a level of agreement that isn’t actually present.

                So, sure, redefine the term but then you have to start at square one for if and why it’s objectionable and what ought to be done about it.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                See, I disagree that I’ve redefined the term.

                It was like that when I got here.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                So then… one person talking and another person responding in a louder voice is a threat to the Enlightenment ideals regarding free speech?

                Got it.

                ETA: And is something we should definitely do something about… only no one knows what the something is.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Kazzy says:

                “Gentlemen please! No speaking in the Free Speech Room!”Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                So then… one person talking and another person responding in a louder voice is a threat to the Enlightenment ideals regarding free speech?

                Only in the same way that, say, domestic violence is violence against all women.

                You could easily mock the idea that one husband slapping his wife is committing violence against all women.

                Indeed, if you wanted to minimize the slap, you could set it up that way.

                But you’d sort of have to hope that nobody noticed that you did that.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                I’m not the one who redefined the Heckler’s Veto. I’m trying to understand the definition you claim you inherited.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                I know that, when I use the term, it includes stuff like “protesters got the guy to withdraw” on top of “protesters got the administration to uninvite the guy”.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                Protestors also helped end segregation.

                The unEnlightened, Freedom(TM)-hating bastards.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                Is that what we’re arguing about now?

                How protesters getting events cancelled are best analogized to the protesters that ended segregation?Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                I thought we were arguing the merits of protesting once you re-defined “heckler” to “protester”?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                My emphasis was on “getting the event to not happen”.

                We can switch back to “hecklers” if you’d like. If that gets us back to looking at the whole “getting the event to not happen” thing instead of noun choice.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Jaybird says:

                “Getting the event canceled” seems like an obviously wrong definition: the essence of heckling is disruption, and the heckler’s veto is based on the threat of that disruption.

                If students protest a speaker on the quad the week before, and the speaker decides not to come or the host disinvites them, that’s just not heckling.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to pillsy says:

                Getting it cancelled wouldn’t count as disruption?

                I mean, let’s say that the college disinvites. That’s the veto.
                Let’s say the cops tell the college “you’re not having this event anymore”. That’s the veto.
                The guy looks at the pictures and the footage and pulls out… that’s *NOT* the veto? That strikes me as pretty dang close to the previous two.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                If the event is cancelled by the powers that be, it is the powers that be who have erred, not the heckler.

                If the speaker pulls out simply because they are not up to the task of being heckled, then it is they who have erred.

                If the heckler creates a real climate and threat of violence… e.g., if they threaten to blow up the building or attack the speaker… yes, that is indeed bad acts on the part of the heckler. But not because they heckled… because they threatened violence which we already have prohibitions on.

                “Getting it cancelled” puts the agency in the wrong place. I give talks at my school. The only people who could cancel the event are folks involved with the school itself. No one could “get it cancelled” if we don’t choose to cancel it.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                I appreciate that you’re using a narrow definition of the veto and limiting it to the administration pulling an event after threats of violence.

                I’m not saying that those things aren’t covered.

                I’m just saying that the whole “violation of the various things mentioned in the first amendment is not limited to the narrow definition you’re using and I see events being cancelled in response to protests and threats of bad action as also under the broader definition that I’m using.”

                Heck, if you go to a comedy club to see Joe Schmoe do a set and a heckler takes up 10 minutes of Joe Schmoe’s time instead of you getting to watch his hilarious bit where he talks about the difference between soccer and rugby and football, then the heckler has effectively ruined your evening with Joe Schmoe.

                And the heckler shouldn’t have done that.

                Even if the heckler has a right to call sports toxic masculinity and tell Joe Schmoe that he should go to therapy.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                Well then what are we talking about? Is the new school HV bad? Is that the question? Is there really any answer other than “It depends”?

                Wasn’t there that group that went around and blocked the Westboro Baptist Church from being seen by funerals? Were they administering a heckler’s veto?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                If we’re moving from “there’s not a freedom of speech issue here” to “but some things are more important than free speech!”, cool.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                So, the question is, is there a freedom of speech issue when people heckle?

                It depends. Convince me otherwise.

                A question for you: does preventing heckling create any freedom of speech issues?

                How long into the set does the guy at the comedy club get before he’s bounced? Or must the audience remain silent absent sincere laughter at a reasonable volume?

                I’ll clarify my stance: heckling and attempting to veto via heckling can create a freedom of speech issue but I can’t think of a big picture solution that doesn’t create more/worse free speech issues.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                No, there is a freedom of speech issue when people heckle.

                There is also a freedom of speech issue when people heckle hecklers.

                There is also a freedom of speech issue when people heckle heckler hecklers.

                There is also a freedom of speech issue when…

                Anyway, the last couple of times I went to a comedy club, I saw the same comedian get heckled (lightly) exactly twice. He handled both situations so deftly that I assume that the hecklers were plants.

                Ain’t that the ideal way to deal with it? Heckler heckles speaker, speaker comes back with a cutting one-liner that gets everybody else to laugh, heckler is shamed by the obvious overwhelming support for the comedian rather than the heckler.

                But when it comes to, say, colleges and speakers and whatnot?

                Well, there are completely different dynamics and it seems to me that a group inviting a guy to speak and having protesters show up and make that speech just not happen, there’s a problem there.

                Even if people used guns in WWII.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                Oh yes, I’ve fully conceded that universities can and should have codes of conduct they enforce at speaking events.

                When they don’t, they’ve failed.

                Don’t blame the heckler though… blame the university.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Kazzy says:

                If the question truly is, “Can free speech issues arise when hecklers heckle?” Or “Can free speech issues arise when completely unfettered free speech is allowed?” I would say yes, they can.

                I just keep seeing the question posed as “Why aren’t we stopping hecklers entirely?” Again, with no mechanism for how to do that.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Kazzy says:

                Last year, our local HS hosted a Zoom workshop for 8th graders on transitioning to 9th grade. The district had been using Google Classroom as their platform and thus were not very familiar with Zoom.

                Can you guess what happened? They got Zoom bombed. It started with fart sounds and only got worse and they eventually pulled the plug when recordings of the n-word came blasting through on loop.

                Now… the Zoom-bomber (probably but not definitely a student themself) was undoubtedly in the wrong. But who fished up here? Undoubtedly the school who didn’t put in place even the most basic protections on the meeting and had no idea how to respond.

                I tut-tut more at the school than the bomber. You?Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Kazzy says:

                The disruptor is still a jerk. And should be punished for their disruption. How do you not see that?Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                I agree that the ZoomBomber should have been stopped. The ZoomBomber was undoubtedly a jerk.

                But the ZoomBomber didn’t break any rules precisely because the powers that be didn’t put in place any rules. They created an environment where whoever was the loudest “won.” The ZoomBomber just played by THEIR rules… rules only THEY had the power to set.

                Now, they didn’t purposefully set those rules… they simply didn’t understand how the damn technology worked. And it was really frustrating that we couldn’t get through the end of the presentation and hear what we needed to hear.

                I was annoyed by the ZoomBomber. I was mad at the school. The school fished up royally. The ZoomBomber did what jerks (and, again, likely a teenage jerk) are going to do when opportunities to be jerky present themselves: be a jerk.

                But nothing *forced* the school to end the presentation. They could have identified and muted or removed the offending party. They could have blocked him from being able to draw on the virtual whiteboard. But instead they literally left a red carpet up onto the stage and then acted surprised that they weren’t the lone act.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Kazzy says:

                “But the ZoomBomber didn’t break any rules precisely because the powers that be didn’t put in place any rules. ”

                and if she hadn’t wanted guys to hit on her then she should have made that clear, by not wearing such provocative clothing and not behaving in such an enticing manner

                “[N]othing *forced* the school to end the presentation. They could have identified and muted or removed the offending party.”

                interesting because like four sentences previously you said ” they didn’t purposefully set those rules… they simply didn’t understand how the damn technology worked” which suggests that they could not, in fact, have identified or muted the offending party, as they lacked the ability to do so.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to DensityDuck says:

                “…and if she hadn’t wanted guys to hit on her then she should have made that clear, by not wearing such provocative clothing and not behaving in such an enticing manner…”

                I don’t believe anyone is seeking to ban unwanted hitting on, even if they acknowledge the many problems with it.

                “…which suggests that they could not, in fact, have identified or muted the offending party, as they lacked the ability to do so…”

                If you can’t handle leading a Zoom meeting, maybe don’t lead a Zoom meeting.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Kazzy says:

                “If you can’t handle leading a Zoom meeting, maybe don’t lead a Zoom meeting.”

                mmmhmm

                if she hadn’t wanted guys to hit on her then she should have made that clear by not wearing such provocative clothing, etceteraReport

              • Kazzy in reply to DensityDuck says:

                Yea, those are exactly the same thing.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Kazzy says:

                Even if the university does nothing to punish the people who disrupted an event, hurting all the people who came out to hear the speakers?Report

              • pillsy in reply to Jaybird says:

                No. The problem here is that you seem to be implicitly assuming protesters can’t convince anyone of anything except based on their ability to disrupt things!

                But if you somehow convince the UC Hastings Federalist Society that Ilya Shapiro is bad and they should feel bad for inviting him, that’s not heckling, the HV, or anything but plain old free speech being used in exactly the was free speech is supposed to be used.

                One problem with allegedly “free speech absolutist” takes on this subject is that if you take them seriously, they imply it’s bad to actually persuade anybody else to use their free speech differently.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to pillsy says:

                The problem here is that you seem to be implicitly assuming protesters can’t convince anyone of anything except based on their ability to disrupt things!

                I’m assuming that that’s the conclusion that they, themselves, have reached.

                We wrote letters to the editor, that didn’t work.
                We had a rally in the quad, that didn’t work.
                We put up posters advertising a second rally in the quad, that got more people to go to the second rally but the second rally didn’t work.
                We had a debate before the fact, that didn’t work.
                All that is left is to attempt to disrupt the thing.

                Victory isn’t measured in “being right”, however that would be measured.

                It’s in preventing the thing. Ideally by getting everybody else to say “holy cow, this speaker is really bad! We shouldn’t be condoning his speech by hosting it!”

                But is anything ideal in this vale of tears?Report

              • pillsy in reply to Jaybird says:

                We wrote letters to the editor, that didn’t work.
                We had a rally in the quad, that didn’t work.

                Isn’t the scenario in question that they had a rally in the quad and it did work?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to pillsy says:

                Are we still talking about UC Hastings?

                If so, the facts are in dispute. According to multiple sources. From all over.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to pillsy says:

                But it is the Heckler’s Veto.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                If it is disinvited because of fears of disruption, that is precisely the HV.

                If the speaker pulls out because they fear being heckled, that is at least HV-adjacent.

                If the speaker is disinvited because the inviting body decided, “Hey, hosting this guy is going to insult a lot of our fellow students, and we don’t want to do that to them,” that’s nothing like the HV.

                I’m beginning to think “free speech absolutists” need to periodically be reminded that protest is speech every bit as speech-y as lecturing from a podium.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Kazzy says:

                That’s just being disingenuous. And most of that was quiet protest. Just showing up and expecting fair treatment. It wasn’t yelling. That made the reaction of the racists even more obviously worse with the dogs and the hoses and the beatdowns.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                Yea, we wouldn’t want no uppity protestors… then we’d have to haggle over who was “worse”.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Kazzy says:

                That is the theory of non-combative protest. It was the big argument between MLK Jr. and Malcolm X.

                And I bet you wouldn’t use the same defense against, say, Thomas Sowell or Clarence Thomas.Report

              • Chris in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                You’ve never actually seen video, with audio, of the Dr King-led protests if you think they were quiet or involved “just showing up.”Report

              • JS in reply to Chris says:

                The Civil Rights movement has been heavily, heavily…toned down.

                Most people have this weird image of the Civil Rights movement as an almost Mister Smith goes to Washington sort of peaceful “respectful” movement.

                The reality would be — well, Dr King would have recognized the BLM marches — right down to agent provocateur’s, media focusing on random instances of violence while millions march peacefully nearby, and whitewashing police overreactions.

                He’d have probably said “Oh, government agents are snatching people up in unmarked vans, while cops fire gas and beat protestors? Yeah, been there my friend.” and then gotten very confused when he heard people scolding them to be more like his movement.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to JS says:

                You do realize I explicitly called out the brutality they faced from those in power when I brought it up?Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                Well, you did and you didn’t. You referred to that behavior as “worse.” Not bad. Not evil. But “worse” with the implication being the reason it was “worse” was because the protestors were silent (they weren’t, as Chris points out).

                The message was, “Had the protestors gone in their loud and disruptive, it would have been less clear who was worse.”

                You took a very relative position with regards to protesting and actual physical violence.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Chris says:

                Yes, impute my credibility.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                Nobody “imputes” credibility to what you say. I think the word you want is “impugn,” which is something people do, often for good reason.Report

        • InMD in reply to Kazzy says:

          I would think it certainly varies by circumstances of the institution. Sometimes I wonder if it’s not a coincidence that the blow-ups that hit the radar really are concentrated in ivy league and small, private liberal arts schools.

          To your point, there is always another student waiting in the wings to take a seat at those places. But is there always one with parents able to make massive donations to the endowment or whatever else? My guess is that those are in shorter supply. Imagine telling the wealthy parents who helped pay to renovate the whatever building that their child was suspended for a semester with tuition forfeited. The incentives don’t exactly align towards high levels of accountability.Report

          • Greg In Ak in reply to InMD says:

            Not a coincidence, but it’s more the media coverage follows the established narratives. Do these things happen more at Ivy’s? Who the F knows. But some silly complicated story will go big at Yale but no one will care at Directional State.Report

    • DavidTC in reply to Kazzy says:

      I don’t think they should have and think colleges should have and enforce codes of conduct at such events. Just like they wouldn’t allow a kid with a whoopee cushion to continually interrupted a professor’s in-class lecture without consequence, they shouldn’t have let these folks do so.

      You can’t disrupt classes for an actual good reason. People are trying to get an education.

      No one has ever been able to answer my question of why we shouldn’t let people disrupt other things at universities, especially since _legally speaking_ you can disrupt any other random events you want.

      The punishment by the government (And if it is a public university giving it out it _is_ ‘the government’) for disrupting a political speaker at a university should be exactly the same as disrupting a political rally: You are required to leave by the hosts, and if you fail to do that, you can then be arrested for trespassing.

      Invoking a university code of conduct at _an event that is not part of a university education_ is nonsense, and is exactly why these right-wing hacks want to give speeches at universities.Report

      • DavidTC in reply to DavidTC says:

        Or to put it another way: There are places where we restrict free speech.

        You don’t have free speech within X feet of voting, for example. Most of us agree with that and understand why it exists. (Because it’s easy to create political pressure on voting.)

        Often in the past, the government has tried to restrict protest _near_ events and speakers, setting up ‘free speech zones’ for supposed security reasons (but in reality to get the speech out of sight) and I think most of us disagree with those.

        And, in schools, governments (and by that read ‘school administrator) have the right to restrict speech in various ways because there is an important thing happening there that people have paid for, and protestors should not be able to disrupt that. And I think most of us agree with that in concept, if sometimes having issues in practice.

        But the end result of this is that if you go to a political rally and heckle, you can’t be _punished_ by the government. (Merely for failing to leave if asked.) And we’d be outraged if you were.

        Whereas someone _can_ be punished by the government for showing up in a college speaker and heckling, just because of location and their status as students. And people seem to think the government SHOULD HAVE done this? That the government failed there.

        Literally pause and think about that.

        No one seems willing to even _consider_ this question: Why are we extending those speech restrictions, intended to protect _education_, to ‘completely unrelated speeches that merely happen to be happening on campus’?

        The fact something is a college campus, or that people protesting are college students, should have absolutely no bearing on whether or not the government has the authority to punish them for speech that isn’t disruptive of some educational thing. We somehow skipped the ‘thinking long and hard about restricting first amendment rights’, or any real justification for doing so, it just slipped it because it was involving a location we’d already done for unrelated reasons.

        It’s like if we started letting people give political rallies at voting locations and then didn’t allow counterprotests because ‘Can’t do that near voting’.Report

      • Russell Michaels in reply to DavidTC says:

        Oh, so the code of conduct doesn’t apply on university grounds for an event paid for by that university? Is that the argument you’re making?Report

      • Kazzy in reply to DavidTC says:

        “No one has ever been able to answer my question of why we shouldn’t let people disrupt other things at universities, especially since _legally speaking_ you can disrupt any other random events you want.”

        I’m not sure there is true. At universities or elsewhere. Unless you mean that you haven’t broken the law unless or until you refuse to leave when asked.

        I can’t run onto the field at the college football game. I’ll be arrested and taken away. Hell, if I did so at even a Little League game and didn’t leave when told to, I’m sure the cops would be called.

        I’m kind of confused as to where we are disagreeing. Or if we are.

        “The punishment by the government (And if it is a public university giving it out it _is_ ‘the government’) for disrupting a political speaker at a university should be exactly the same as disrupting a political rally: You are required to leave by the hosts, and if you fail to do that, you can then be arrested for trespassing.”
        Like, this is what I think should happen. “Sir, there is a Q-and-A period at the end. Please hold your questions until then.”
        “Sir, you’ve been warned. Please sit back down.”
        “Okay, sir, we’re going to call security.”
        I don’t think that is an unreasonable response to a heckler.Report

      • pillsy in reply to DavidTC says:

        No one has ever been able to answer my question of why we shouldn’t let people disrupt other things at universities, especially since _legally speaking_ you can disrupt any other random events you want.

        This is wrong. Like very wrong.

        If you go into a movie, pull out your phone and insist on having a noisy conversation through the whole damn film, you will be asked to leave by the owners of the theater.

        You know how every time there’s a teapot tempest about some chud getting banned from Twitter for acts of egregious chuddery, and we patiently explain that Twitter can do what it wants with the servers and bandwidth it owns?

        Same deal for lecture halls at Yale Law School.Report

        • Russell Michaels in reply to pillsy says:

          This.Report

        • Kazzy in reply to pillsy says:

          I agree fully.

          Based on that, several questions emerge:

          1.) What environment offers more free speech: the one that has enforced rules about who can speak and when or the one that doesn’t?
          2.) What environment is better for the free exchange of ideas: the one that has enforced rules about who can speak and when or the one that doesn’t?
          3.) What environment is preferable: the one that has enforced rules about who can speak and when or the one that doesn’t?

          These questions are all different… perhaps vastly different. But they all seem to be conflated by certain folks.Report

          • Kazzy in reply to Kazzy says:

            For my sake, I would say the answers are as follows:
            1.) The one with no rules.
            2.) It depends on the rules.
            3.) It depends on the rules.Report

            • pillsy in reply to Kazzy says:

              Yeah. One those things that is important and routinely ignored by just about everybody, it seems, is that “freedom of speech” and “free exchange of ideas” are just not the same thing.

              Academics, and the institution that host them, have coalesced around a set of norms [1] that are typically called “academic freedom”.

              Shouting a speaker down is encompassed by free speech in some circumstances. But it’s pretty much always a violation of norms of academic freedom.

              However, once we have that distinction in mind, I think you have some other questions, was inviting the speaker in line with other norms governing the free exchange and debate of ideas on campus.

              In both the UC Hastings and YLS instances, I think the answer is definitely yes, even if you believe (as I do) that the motive in the Hastings situation was trolling.

              In other cases, it’s not so much, and in those cases I have much, much less problem with retaliatory heckling on the part of the students.

              [1] In some circumstances, these norms are enforced by contracts, disciplinary procedures, etc.Report

      • DavidTC in reply to DavidTC says:

        Addressing all my comments at once:

        Do…literally none of you understand the difference between being asked to leave (And getting arrested if you don’t) and a student being punished for making a disruption?

        One of those is basic trespassing laws. The other is a school rule. These are COMPLETELY different things, enforced in different ways by entirely different bodies.

        I am utterly baffled by people not understanding this. Hasn’t the right been bringing up the problems with the sexual misconduct ‘legal’ system on colleges for decades, where students can get punished without a lot of evidence, or even for things that are not technical crimes?

        Well, you do understand that there are _other_ student rules, right?Report

        • DavidTC in reply to DavidTC says:

          And not only that, that is literally the complaint about Yale: That they did not enforce their school rules on the protestors, they did not enforce the code of conduct, and they allowed the students to be disruptive. No one is asserting that they let students break the law!

          I really am completely baffled at the extremely weird confusion here. The fact that we think that students somehow are barred from disrupting events _if schools don’t care to stop them_.

          Like there’s some magical right for speakers on a college campus to be able to make themselves be heard.

          No. You go on my property and start talking, and I let you, and even say ‘Come stand here, I want to pay you to make a speech’…that doesn’t in any manner mean I can’t also allow a bunch of people to stand around you shoulder to shoulder and shout loudly to keep you from being heard.

          And that doesn’t really change if it’s the government. In fact, the government _might_ be barred from _stopping_ a bunch of people circling around and shouting…but that’s a bit of a side issue, because what they did here was just _not_ try to stop the shouting.Report

  12. Chip Daniels says:

    I think a lot of confusion results from the way people use the term “Marketplace of ideas”.

    The way is is often used is to indicate a freewheeling, anarchic environment where there is little or no controls.

    But actual functioning marketplaces are anything but. They are actually highly organized, carefully structured and controlled places with lots of boundaries and rules.

    Like, the very first prerequisite for the existence of markets is a safe space in which to exchange. There has a to be a secure place where each entity is protected and where there is trust that they will not be attacked or driven out.

    Free speech is like that, where in order for it to truly function, every individual needs to be safe and assured of participation.

    We can see how a heckler may damage that and inhibit the speaker, but there are plenty of other ways in which the marketplace of ideas can be destroyed.
    One is by one group simply monopolizing the platform, which is often what provokes a heckler in the first place.

    Heckling isn’t by definition good or bad, it very much depends on the overall context and whether there is in fact a functioning marketplace of ideas to begin with.Report

    • Russell Michaels in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      No, most marketplaces are organic. Spontaneous order. It is the planned marketplaces that fail. Central planning, the fatal conceit, the curious task, all that.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Russell Michaels says:

        I’ve never seen an organic marketplace.
        Can you provide an example?

        Like, even in ancient times, the only marketplaces which existed were in safe zones controlled by some king or another.
        In modern times, markets are impossible without things like secure property rights and enforcement of contracts.Report

        • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          In 48,000 BC the tribe of the red mountain exchanged 5 saber-toothed tiger fangs with the people of the golden valley for a basket of berries and the youngest female in the bartering party. There in the ancient past homo economicus was born!Report

        • Russell Michaels in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          An economy is organic.Report

        • The sellers at the Farmer’s Market claims their produce is organic.Report

          • Russell Michaels in reply to Mike Schilling says:

            There is no planning between two agreeing to a voluntary exchange.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to pillsy says:

                Planned economy. That’s what we’re talking about.Report

              • Not really. We’re taking about a framework under which exchanges can be made safely and reliably.

                Well, Chip was. I was making a pun.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                Real-world mutual exchanges in real-world markets often involve a ton of planning and discussion between the buyer and the seller.

                Not every purchase is getting a Slim Jim at the 7-11.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to pillsy says:

                Not central planning. That’s the point I was trying to make. I love how “central planning” has been redefined by the left as any laws constraining anything at all. When it has a specific definition.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                The defense of property rights isnt usually considered central planning yet markets are impossible without them.

                And thus the analogy. Free speech is impossible without a safe space and assurances of fair play.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Of course. Property rights are inherent to the system of free market capitalism. It is a liberty. I have discussed this before in my many articles on Hayek and such.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                Where “inherent to” means “prerequisite to”.

                And property rights are a restriction, limiting who can do what where. And can only exist with some central authority with a legitimate monopoly on force.

                Again with the analogy, free speech requires restrictions- things like rules barring hecklers, punishing those who threaten violence, punishing those who libel, and so on. Setting up that safe space where people can assemble and speak in safety.

                And just as with property rights, there are difficult questions which need to be answered- Who is the rightful owner of this or that? Who has the right to speak at the lectern at this time? What exactly constitutes libel?

                Those questions are difficult because they don’t have self-evidently obvious answers, and are easily abused to create the opposite of freedom.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Except they do. Because history has borne it out. Property rights are a requirement for capitalism to function.Report

              • Burt Likko in reply to pillsy says:

                Think about how much planning goes in to making that Slim Jim available for impulse purchase at that 7-11. How you need supply chains and production mrchanisms tracing back to to grain production for cattle feed and a complex social paradigm of property rights and a judicial system generally accepted as legitimate to enforce the contracts needed to get that feed to the cattle and the finished product to the 7-11 and a polity that creates that judicial system and a taxation regime that funds the polity, including possibly a tax on the Slim Jim itself raising its true cost to the impulse buyer from $0.99 to $1.08. That’s a lot of intention, a lot of planning, a lot of stuff we don’t see because we take it all for granted but is nevertheless a part of what’s involved in a “spontaneous” transaction in a “free” market.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Burt Likko says:

                No central planning, though.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                Take that up with advocates of widespread central planning.Report

  13. Burt Likko says:

    First and foremost, I appreciate Russell very much and I appreciate his taking the time to gather, write, and share his thoughts. Know that these are intellectual disagreements, and nothing herein is intended as a personal attack.

    Secondly, I urge everyone participating in this discourse, and those merely reading it, to keep a couple of distinctions clear in your minds. First, the legal boundaries of free speech as against the government are not co-extensive with cultural boundaries of speech tolerated in private discourse. Second, private disruption of speech (whether attempted or successful) is different than punishment like ostracism for having spoken outrageously in the past (what we are today calling “cancel culture.”)

    Don’t feel bad if you find yourself having blurred these ideas. That’s easy to do. No less a free speech guru than Nat Hentoff, a man with whom I had the privilege of collaborating during the early 1990’s about on-campus speech codes, did exactly that in 2006:

    First Amendment law is clear that everyone has the right to picket a speaker, and to go inside the hall and heckle him or her—but not to drown out the speaker, let alone rush the stage and stop the speech before it starts. That’s called the “heckler’s veto.”

    I’m sorry, ghost-of-Nat-Hentoff, but that doesn’t make sense. Saying “One heckler is OK, a bunch of them acting in concert are not” doesn’t and can’t work as a legal proposition, nor as a cultural proposition. If you have a right to heckle me while acting on your own, then how does that right vanish when your friend joins you? Either heckling is allowed, or it is not allowed. If you’re going to say heckling is allowed, but only sometimes, then what factors make some heckling tolerable and some intolerable?

    I don’t want to mischaracterize this post, but it postures itself in opposition to my underlying post and as such, seems to advocate something that at least approaches the proposition that any private disruption of another private person’s speech should be considered wrong. Its arguments (and those raised by Russell in response to my underlying post) seem to be:

    1) if disruptions are tolerated, no one will be able to speak or be heard at all and discourse will vanish because no one will be able to speak over all the heckling (which is inherent in the definition this post offers of the “heckler’s veto,” critically characterized as “essentially letting the mob decide who gets to speak, usually under some threat of violence but not always”);

    2) disruptions ultimately only underline the point that the original speaker is trying to make and therefore backfires upon the disruptor (the “Streisand effect”);

    3) disruptions don’t advance the merits of the heckler’s point (“Cutting out my tongue does not prove you right” and “Shouting down a speaker because you don’t like what they have to say … [it] makes you look like an immature child who can’t handle a free exchange of ideas”); and

    4) expressions of opinion oughtn’t bear serious consequences (“Everyone has an opinion and should not fear death or career destruction for voicing it”). Upon closer analysis, though, this seems to really be “expressions of opinions that I like oughtn’t bear serious consequences,” so the real problem is you want to impose those consequences when I think you shouldn’t. Expressions of opinions which I don’t like are appropriately sanctionable. This is articulated as “If you’re a terrible person who does something terrible, you probably should be fired. As long as we can agree what is defined as ‘something terrible.’ [Emphasis added.]”

    Points 1 and 2 are, of course, contradictory. You can’t effectively silence as well as inadvertently emphasize a speaker’s point simultaneously. You might do one or the other, and a disruption, if successful, might accomplish one or the other. But not both at once because that’s logically impossible.

    One might argue that tolerating disruptions prevents discourse from occurring; I was expecting this post to do that more forcefully but it really doesn’t articulate that argument. But such an argument flies in the face of common experience. We all have always lived in a society permeated with strongly-worded vocal disagreements, impolite interruptions, hecklings, protests, boycotts, and public shaming. Yet discourse is hardly anemic. Common experience demonstrates that even if we sometimes must muddle through hecklers, people can, do, have, and will readily find ways to express their (sometimes unpopular) ideas.

    As to point 3, the “free marketplace of ideas” does not provide us tell us what ideas are right no matter how much Thomas Jefferson hoped it would. Rather, a free marketplace of ideas tells us what ideas are popular. Truth is not always popular.

    As to point 4, When the post argues, “I can say anything on the Internet. Not always without being deplatformed… .” and , we see that there isn’t any objection to sanctioning sufficiently outrageous speech. Of course proportionality of response is important and disputable, but that’s a case-by-case discussion and not a categorical one.

    As is deciding what is outrageous and what isn’t.

    My original point was, and remains, if I say something you think is outrageous, you’re going to be outraged by what I said and are, whether it’s going to be tolerated or not, you may be moved to somehow respond in objection. One way you might respond is to heckle me. And either heckling is allowed, or it is not allowed. Most realistically, as a cultural matter, heckling is sometimes allowed. What’s the “sometimes”? If you can come up with a better way of figuring this out than mine, I’m all ears. To be precise, my observation was: the more you (the heckler) advocate an intra-fenestral idea, and the more I (the speaker) advocate something extra-fenestral, the more socially tolerated your heckling will be. And to be clear: this is not me saying that this is how things ought to be. Rather, that’s how I think things are, and I don’t see any plausible way to change it.

    This post proposes no guidance at all for when heckling ought to be allowed and when it ought not. As demonstrated above, heckling is a) going to happen whether it’s allowed or not, and b) can’t be prohibited consistent with principles of free speech.
    Distinguishing that which is intra-fenestral from that which is extra-fenestral is something that we all do. Sometimes we get it right, and sometimes we get it wrong. Even the author of this post reserves to himself the ability to pronounce upon what is generally acceptable and what is generally not, as he did in a comment on my underlying post: “Involving children under the age of 10 in Pride stuff is creepy to basically everyone.” Maybe he’s right about that, maybe he isn’t; the point here is, he like the rest of us has made a judgment and probably many judgments about what seems to him to be generally socially acceptable. Let us credit him with good faith in so doing, even should we disagree with his conclusions.

    This gets to what made Russell “visibly angry,” what he calls the “biggest problem” with my article: I identified the wrong people as the ones seeking more, and more severe, sanction of speech. That is very much in the eye of the beholder. You will inevitably perceive more, and harsher, disruption or cancelation aimed against speech you think is reasonable versus that which is aimed against speech you think is outrageous. This is simply human nature.

    Allow me to end by underlining a point of agreement. “People need to be better,” this post states, “and extend grace and humility to others that make honest mistakes. Society cannot function if the powerful take their knives out constantly over relatively nothing.” Absolutely. I think when appropriate apology is made, we ought not be parsimonious with forgiveness.Report

    • Russell Michaels in reply to Burt Likko says:

      I am a free speech absolutist. But shouting someone down isn’t allowing a free exchange of ideas. These hecklers could have asked questions to hosannas from their fellow cohorts in the audience and a dialogue could have happened. Hecklers do not seek dialogue. They seek to stop the person they’re heckling from speaking.Report

      • Burt Likko in reply to Russell Michaels says:

        Respectfully, I don’t understand what the phrase “free speech absolutist” means, then, since you are deciding for the hecklers where, when, and how they get to express themselves.Report

        • Philip H in reply to Burt Likko says:

          It seems to mean that everyone gets to speak every idea all the time, no matter how morally repugnant or bereft of intellectual rigor. That no person has the right, much less the obligation to decide when ideas no longer serves a public or societal good. That norms and conventions are not sufficiently good to prevent speech. That once someone speaks we can and should debate the ideas, not censure the speakers.

          Or something like that.Report

        • Russell Michaels in reply to Burt Likko says:

          A free and open exchange of ideas. Shouting someone down doesn’t lead to understanding or a dialogue. It breeds resentment.Report

          • Burt Likko in reply to Russell Michaels says:

            And how do we best achieve this “free and open exchange of ideas”? Submitted for your consideration: Absolutely free speech results in the very cacophony you condemn. Achieving the most open, free debate leading to understanding or dialogue requires someone to exercise discretion about who speaks, where, and when. This isn’t “absolutely” free speech. It’s intentionally regulated speech because someone has to, at minimum, regulate that only one person talks at a time. And in fact, it requires a good deal more regulation than that.Report

            • Kazzy in reply to Burt Likko says:

              Free speech absolutism WITHOUT hecklers is an oxymoron if there ever was one.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Kazzy says:

                Except it isn’t.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                Then you’re going to have to show your work there.

                Free speech absolutism means there is no restrictions on speech ever.
                Bans on heckling are a restriction on speech.

                You talking and me shouting doesn’t *restrict* your ability to speak. It might restrict your ability to be heard. But being heard is not the same as speaking.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Kazzy says:

                No, that’s not what it means to me. Free speech absolutism as you define it would lead to only the loudest being heard. You decided that was the definition. I mention the regime of punishments that is liberty.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                So then… for all of us who remain so confused… what does “free speech absolutism” mean to you?Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Kazzy says:

                It means an exchange of ideas. A conversation. People being heard and listened to, not shouted down.Report

            • Chris in reply to Burt Likko says:

              I think the town of Pulaski, TN, and its decades-old fight with the famous far right hate group that originated there, is a really good case study. The people there, who long ago stopped wanting to be associated with said group, have learned a lot of lessons about how to rid themselves of the disease that is the dudes in pointy white hats, and probably have a lot to tell us how to, democratically, drown out certain types of speech without violating the rights of the most awful people in the country. It goes without saying that there was a lot of heckling (in the form of protests, counter-rallies, complaining to public officials, etc.) that went into making the dudes in pointy white hats feel very unwelcome. The other options were to fight to outlaw them, which would have been an obvious violation of the First Amendment, or to ignore them, which would have allowed them to continue to treat Pulaski as their historic (if only symbolic at that point) base of operations.Report

            • Russell Michaels in reply to Burt Likko says:

              You know, maybe tell the people stopping someone else from speaking to let that person finish?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                “HALT! In the name of free speech I command you to shut up!”

                This works better when it is Graham Chapman and Eric Idle doing it.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                You really don’t understand that freedom of speech doesn’t mean you get to shout someone else down? Like, you don’t seem to understand what freedom of speech actually means.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                In some circumstances that is what it means. Not, like, in a law school lecture hall, but that’s neither the beginning and end to free speech.

                For an example of this sort of thing I believe is clearly justified and consistent with free speech, see the way the Patriot Guard Riders would drown out WBC protests at soldiers’ funerals.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                Maybe you should define what YOU think Freedom of Speech is. Because for all the words offered here, it seems like you are using a definition no one else is and which no one else seems to understand.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Kazzy says:

                What makes you think he understands what he’s saying any better than anyone else?Report

              • You really don’t understand that freedom of speech doesn’t mean you get to shout someone else down? Like, you don’t seem to understand what freedom of speech actually means.

                Or, he’s just got a different definition then you, which you seem to trying to shout down with your comments here. Because he’s not agreeing with you. Which you can’t abide.

                I guess you aren’t Heckling though, because you aren’t typing in all caps.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Philip H says:

                As best I can tell, Russell’s definition of free speech absolutism means a radical change in societal attitudes.

                Like, where people in China patiently and politely listen to government propaganda (without heckling or interrupting).
                But also the government patiently and politely allows them to host their own broadcasts about Tianenmen Square (without shutting them down or arresting them).

                In other words, free speech absolutism isn’t intended to be a solution to societal problems, but a suggested end state, although without a clear path of how to get there.

                This is illustrated by the exchange about markets, where rights are respected passively, without any central agency that enforces them; The respect and orderly exchange just, kinda happens somehow.

                How we arrive at such a state is an exercise left to the reader.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                So the same libertarian ideals completely divorced from what we know about how the world actually woks.

                Got it.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                That’s some intimately bad faith. I am against the regime in China, although I do know it is illegal to go against the government there. Which is why I give figures like Jackie Chan leeway when they have to toe the party line in interviews lest their families die.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                I’m actually trying to be generous here.
                You just keep repeating that no one should shut down or heckle or otherwise interrupt anyone’s speech.
                And that’s a fine and wonderful end state of affairs, we all agree!
                But it’s just an endless variation of a sentiment, not an insight which points towards action.

                What’s missing is any suggestions of what the citizens of say, China or Russia should do to reach that point.

                For that woman leapt onto the stage in Russia and interrupted the state broadcast, nothing that you’ve written seems to be of any value.

                Not wrong, just not useful to her.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Russia and China, since freedom of speech doesn’t actually exist in those countries, would require an internal or external revolution to demolish the ruling class of their government. Freedom of speech as it exists in America exists in very few other countries, even first world ones like Canada and Europe.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                I’m pretty sure that “intimately” is not the word you want.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to CJColucci says:

                And you’re criticizing my adjective choice instead of the points I’m making.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Russell Michaels says:

                Adam Smith attributed much of our prosperity to the division of labor. This is my contribution to the pin-making process.Report

              • Russell Michaels in reply to Philip H says:

                I’m not shouting down anyone.Report

              • one needn’t shout to both heckle or veto.Report

  14. Florida Republicans are now talking about punishing Disney for coming out against “Don’t say gay”, by taking away Disney World’s charter. That’s the heckler’s veto backed by the power of government.Report

    • pillsy in reply to Mike Schilling says:

      Republicans: “Corporations are people with the free speech right to comment on politics!”

      Aslo Republicans: “No, wait, not like that!”Report

      • Brandon Berg in reply to pillsy says:

        Democrats: We must suppress corporate political speech to save our democracy!

        Also Democrats: No, wait, not like that!

        The takeaway here is that both sides are crap, but that’s not new information.

        I kind of rolled my eyes at Mike’s comment above when I first saw it. He’s not wrong about Republican hypocrisy, of course, but there was a period of a few years where he never passed up the chance to make a snide comment about the Citizens United decision.

        By the way, “corporations are people” is a lefty strawman. The Citizens United decision doesn’t say they are, and explicitly rejects the premise that the prohibition on abridgement of the freedom of speech is contingent on the identity of the speaker.Report

        • pillsy in reply to Brandon Berg says:

          I can’t speak for Mike, but you convinced me CU was rightly decided years ago.

          Like, literally you, Brandon Berg, in OT comments.

          (I remember stuff like that but who the hell knows where my car keys are.)Report

          • Kazzy in reply to pillsy says:

            CU is one of the areas where I break hard from general liberal sentiments. I think it was not just decided correctly as far as my layman’s understanding of the law is concerned but that it is a GOOD thing to allow folks to pool their money and pursue their interests.Report

            • pillsy in reply to Kazzy says:

              “Liberals who think CU was Good, Actually,” encapsulates a lot of what I think of as the current OT commentariat’s ideological brand.Report

            • Mike Schilling in reply to Kazzy says:

              CU is an example of people pooling their money and pursue their political interests. That much was decided correctly.

              Exxon is an example of people pooling their money to make more money. Their management giving that money to a politician without express permission from the shareholders is coerced speech, not free speech.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Mike Schilling says:

                Hell, even if they _have_ permission of every shareholder, Exxon’s money is not _their_ money. Even corporations with single owners cannot spend corporate money as if it was theirs.

                It only becomes _their_ money when they pay income tax on it.

                I do not see why we should allow owners to use corporate money to promote political positions without being taxed on this _benefit_ the corporation is providing for them, anymore than we allow corporations to provide free housing or free cars to owners without the owners paying tax on that income.

                This is on top of the fact that if every shareholder does not agree to use that money in that way, it’s basically theft by conversion. But…even if it’s not, it’s tax avoidance.

                Meanwhile, things like CU are actually people pooling money _they have already paid taxes on_, so it’s fine. As long as it’s not a 501(c)(3), that part is fine.

                In fact, using corporate money to take political positions is essentially the same thing as using a charity’s money (Which people got a tax deduction on) to take political positions. There’s a reason they really aren’t supposed to do that. (Although technically they can, as long as they don’t promote a candidate…but I would argue they shouldn’t be allowed.)Report

        • Disney put out a statement. They’re not trying to buy an election.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Mike Schilling says:

      To be honest, the whole “self-policing” thing that Disney has going on is interesting as heck.

      Is that an option for, like, other people? I wouldn’t mind some self-policing over here in Colorado, tell you what.Report

      • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

        What do you mean by self-policing?Report

      • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

        When I first saw that Florida was considering revoking their control within their little empire, my first thought was, “Don’t threaten me with a good time.”

        Disney sucks. Florida’s government sucks. It’s a world of suck over there.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

          I’m looking forward to being surprised at who gleefully changes sides the moment that they realize that the most important principle above all is “deny opponents a win”.Report

          • Mike Schilling in reply to Jaybird says:

            No one’s changing sides. There’s never been any libertarianism in the GOP beyond liking tax cuts.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Mike Schilling says:

              Personally, I also see an opportunity to push for non-abusive copyright limits.

              Maybe even return to a pre-Sonny Bono world!Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to Mike Schilling says:

              Yeah I don’t think anybody is behaving differently, but maybe at long last we can finally dispense with the abstract talk about free markets.Report

              • Free enterprise in the defense of heresy is no virtue.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Sure, not yet.

                But I’m waiting to hear “but their private security results in much lower crime than the police two counties over.”

                “I wanted the police defunded and, looky there, Disney’s police presence is much less expensive than in the rest of the state!”Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Man, those imaginary people making those future hypothetical arguments are really stupid.

                My imaginary people just tell me to wear a silly hat.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Sounds like it’s unanimous that we’re going to finally abolish the weird rules for the Reedy Creek Improvement District.

                It’s about time.

                It’s good that we’re finally getting rid of this weird tribal thing and we’re all willing to work with DeSantis to make some things right.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Samuel Hammond 🌐🏛 (@hamandcheese) Tweeted:
                If the Right really wants to go after Disney, they should skip the culture war memes and drastically shorten copyright terms. https://twitter.com/hamandcheese/status/1509711868289507338?s=20&t=-n2lJnVk6ztMMKXv3VMfJg

                Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias) Tweeted:
                I mean if the conservative movement were something other than a con that exploits cultural issues for votes in order to redistribute wealth upwards there is a lot that it could do but … it’s not. https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1509715484526190599?s=20&t=-n2lJnVk6ztMMKXv3VMfJgReport

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I think that a lot of hay could be made if we could push the Republican Party to do the right thing (even if they would only do the right thing for the wrong reasons).Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                Who is this “we,” and how do we push them to do something they want to do? And what do we get out of it?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                Who is this “we,” and how do we push them to do something they want to do?

                Well, in this case, we can push them to actually go through with the unjust Reedy Creek Improvement District. We can move toward a less abusive copyright system. Just tell people like Ron DeSantis and his ilk that doing so would strike a blow for their team in the Culture War.

                And what do we get out of it?

                It all comes down to that, doesn’t it?

                “The right thing” is just a façade.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                On this very site you have half a dozen living breathing Republicans.

                Have you pushed them yet?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Um, sure.

                Hey Republicans on the site!

                What do you think about DeSantis’s plan to take away Disney’s special status for policing?

                You down with limiting copyright?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                ‘Republicans, open the can of whoopass on corporations.”


                “Open the can of whoopass on corporations, Republicans.”

                “I’m sorry, Dave, I’m afraid I just can’t do that.”Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Hey, DeSantis is making noise about doing so.

                I hope he actually does. Heck, I’d even praise him a little for doing it!Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                What happened the last time the Republicans went to war against Disney?

                Why do you think DeSantis chose the Reedy Creek angle, rather than taxes or worker safety or wages as his weapon?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Wait, so we’re *NOT* finally getting rid of this weird tribal thing and we’re all willing to work with DeSantis to make some things right?

                This is a great opportunity, Chip! Accomplish a goal!Report

              • pillsy in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Why do you think DeSantis chose the Reedy Creek angle, rather than taxes or worker safety or wages as his weapon?

                I have a theoryReport

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                You’re the game theorist. Game it out.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                Well, *MY* theory was that most people would see what side DeSantis was on and then act as if someone had yelled “SWITCH PARTNERS!”

                Folks on the Left would be arguing for the importance (and proven success!) of Disney’s policing. On top of that, they’d argue that shortening copyright to what it was pre-Sonny Bono would be tantamount to *THEFT*.

                While people on the Right would argue that Disney shouldn’t be exempt from policing and that the current length of copyright is abusive.

                That’s how I gamed it out in my head.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                No, it isn’t. Why do you think anyone would believe you?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                Oh, perhaps you can tell me how I gamed it out, then.

                How did I game it out, if not that way?Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                You didn’t, unless “play stupid games, win stupid prizes” is gaming it out.Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                I thought we were in a place where a Republican governor was threatening to use his power to attack a business because he didn’t like what their leaders said.

                Is that not where we are?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

                So we’re not going to accomplish a goal worth accomplishing because of who would be accomplishing it (and how he’s doing it for the wrong reasons)?

                Alas.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Jaybird says:

                No, we aren’t going to accomplish a goal worth accomplishing because the coalition that’s trying to accomplish something here is constitutionally incapable of accomplishing a worthwhile goalReport

              • Jaybird in reply to pillsy says:

                Well, maybe we can take on Disney’s self-policing and copyright madness when Team Good finally has the power to do it.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                You’re already seeing how Team Good handles issues of corporate self-policibg, in the Biden administration appointees to the NLRB.

                But Team Bad seems strangely unenthusiastic.Report

              • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Never underestimate the ability of Team Bad to align much more closely to the mainstream on social and cultural issues then ruin it all by…. *checks Rick Scott’s notes* proposing taxing the poor and eliminating popular social insurance programs.Report

              • pillsy in reply to InMD says:

                It’s extremely unclear to me that Team Bad’s current take–that mentioning the existence of gay people in front of eight-year-olds is tantamount to child molestation–is all that well aligned to the mainstream either.Report

              • InMD in reply to pillsy says:

                I don’t think that version of it is either. That it seems to be what their activists and… thought leaders I guess (I hate using that term for people who I don’t think do much thinking) are going with is an example of things I think are also likely to backfire. To which I say good, I hope it does.

                That said, there is a way moderated mainstream version that I think has legs. I think it goes something like ‘I don’t care who my neighbor marries but for the life of me I can’t figure out why adding gay representation, no matter how unobtrusive, into early elementary curriculums makes anyone’s list of top 100 priorities for public education.’Report

              • pillsy in reply to InMD says:

                I think it goes something like ‘I don’t care who my neighbor marries but for the life of me I can’t figure out why adding gay representation, no matter how unobtrusive, into early elementary curriculums makes anyone’s list of top 100 priorities for public education.’

                Yeah, I buy that as a reasonable enough position, but even there the legislative “Don’t Say Gay” push is fundamentally incompatible with, “Eh, who cares?”

                I think this is a limiting feature for a lot of Culture Warring, TBH.Report

              • InMD in reply to pillsy says:

                We’re in agreement there. I think there is a rump of voters on the right that realizes its lost the culture war on the gay issue (and a number of others) and so looks for any openings it can find to bully people or re-assert itself in some way. It’s wrong and it’s bad public policy.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Oh, I was talking about Disney’s self-policing.

                As in the police.

                Speaking of changing the subject, did you hear about Team Good’s plan to spend $32.2 billion to put “more police officers on the beat” through state and local grants and community violence intervention programs?

                It’s like “Defund” never happened.

                There was a recent Simpson’s joke (I know!) where they did another Future Episode. Nelson’s mom is still a gentleman’s entertainer at the age of 87 because of how the government got rid of retirement. Bart said “I don’t know how they did that with 99 Democrats in the senate.” The response? “That one Republican is really good at getting his way.”Report

              • pillsy in reply to Jaybird says:

                It’s like “Defund” never happened.

                It’s very much like “defund” decisively lost the intra-Democratic political fight long before it would matter for inter-party policy positioning.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                The fact you and DeSantis are only interested in Disney IS the subject.
                There is nothing else noteworthy about this.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Well, I’m glad you found a reason to oppose pushing the Republican Party to do the right thing (even if they would only do the right thing for the wrong reasons).

                Man, that one Republican is sure good at getting his way!Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                What makes you think a bill of attainder is a good thing?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                You mean like the one that explicitly allowed Disney to police itself?Report

              • pillsy in reply to Jaybird says:

                Here’s the thing: “We should cut back on copyright terms and that will really screw Disney!” is a totally plausible position that would at least work with a Trollface mask, but I haven’t seen it in the wild at all because the coalition that wants to screw Disney hates the idea of limiting corporate power.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to pillsy says:

                Eh, it’s started making the rounds.

                Report

              • pillsy in reply to Jaybird says:

                There, “your” is key.

                Also, I have to say that if they believed any of this crap had legs, they wouldn’t be saying it. Fox News depends much more on media companies being able to openly antagonize a major political party than Disney does.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to pillsy says:

                if they believed any of this crap had legs, they wouldn’t be saying it

                Yeah, I’ve got to concede that.

                But it does sort of hint that there *MIGHT* be a crack in the previously invulnerable. One hopes, anyway.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to pillsy says:

                “Your” really is the key. Whatever one thinks of crony capitalism, Republicans aren’t interested in doing anything about it in general. So there’s no way we can “push” them to do the right thing. What they want, instead, is selectively punishing the crony capitalists that offend them. And that is not a good thing that we should be pushing or helping. When they come up with a serious program of cutting off the gravy train on a consistent basis, maybe we’ll get on board. But we’re not holding our breath.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to CJColucci says:

                I love the way Republicans have no other mode of thinking than corruption and can’t even imagine anyone behaving differently.

                “We’re going to abuse the power of government to do this totally unethical and unconstitutional thing, and the Democrats will have no choice but to agree because…We’re doing it to a corporation! Muwahahaha!”

                The idea that Disney’s special status should be decided on what’s best for the citizens is completely foreign to them.Report

              • The other point is “on the table”, which means your privileges will go away if you don’t play ball.Report

              • Mike Schilling in reply to Jaybird says:

                What special corporate structures do Apple and Disney have that could be taken away?Report

              • Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

                That begs the question that it’s a goal worth accomplishing.Report