Noam Chomsky, Ron Paul, and American Hegemony

Russell Michaels

Russell is inside his own mind, a comfortable yet silly place. He is also on Twitter.

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59 Responses

  1. Philip H says:

    So you do not accept the notion that you can be anti-Israel without being anti Semitic?Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

      Anti-Israel? It’s like being “anti-Canadian”.

      If someone said “I am anti-Canada”, would it be crazy to conclude that they were anti-Canadian?

      I submit: It would not be crazy.

      That said, it’s possible to look at Canada and conclude that Justin Trudeau is racist, that he’s in the pocket of a lot of industries out there, that he wears the mantle of “Good Progressive” but he was the guy who was in the wrong in the SNC-Lavalin Affair.

      So let’s imagine someone who wanted to talk about how it was pretty messed up that not one, not two, BUT THREE instances of Trudeau wearing, ahem, “Skin-Darkening Makeup” and then Trudeau came out and admitted that, yeah, he didn’t know how many times he engaged in that particular stunt. So this person we’re imagining comes out and says “It’s messed up that Trudeau wore blackface” and gets the response “you’re being anti-Canadian!”

      That would be crazy.

      Imagine someone criticizing how Canada treats Indigenous Canadians and hearing “That’s anti-Canadian!”

      Being anti-Israel probably is anti-Semitic. But there are a lot of serious criticisms you can make of Israel that get the knee-jerk response of “that’s anti-Semitic!” or, its close cousin, “that might be an appropriate criticism that someone might make in theory, but you’re only making it because you’ve learned to couch your anti-Semitism in respectable trappings!”

      Anyway, all that to say, I don’t think that you can be anti-Israel without being anti-Semitic.

      That said, defenders of Israel, in general, seem to have learned that it’s possible to shut down criticisms of Israel by calling the criticisms anti-Semitic and there are a small percentage of them that just immediately jump to hitting that button. And that makes the charge… well. It’s a criticism that is losing its bite, innit?Report

      • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

        Anyway, all that to say, I don’t think that you can be anti-Israel without being anti-Semitic.

        Kind of like how the MAGA crowd likes to remind me I’m a traitor because I criticize our country?

        Plus I was asking the OP his views . . . .Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

          The MAGA crowd conflates “criticizing America” with “being a traitor”.

          I’d like to think that it’s obvious that they aren’t correct in this.

          I also like to think that it’s obvious that it’s possible to criticize Israel without being Anti-Israel.Report

          • Stillwater in reply to Jaybird says:

            I also like to think that it’s obvious that it’s possible to criticize Israel without being Anti-Israel.

            Nuance, ftw.Report

          • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

            Being anti-Israel probably is anti-Semitic.

            Is essentially the same thing as:

            I also like to think that it’s obvious that it’s possible to criticize Israel without being Anti-Israel.

            because of:

            But there are a lot of serious criticisms you can make of Israel that get the knee-jerk response of “that’s anti-Semitic!” or, its close cousin, “that might be an appropriate criticism that someone might make in theory, but you’re only making it because you’ve learned to couch your anti-Semitism in respectable trappings!”

            Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

              Yes, but the starting point was:

              So you do not accept the notion that you can be anti-Israel without being anti Semitic?Report

              • Stillwater in reply to Jaybird says:

                So the question, then, is can you criticize Israel without being anti-Israel?

                This is an area of discourse where you *usually* roll with the “I’m only interested in how the public views these things” but I think in this case you have a different take. More nuanced. More considered….Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Stillwater says:

                So the question, then, is can you criticize Israel without being anti-israel?

                Of course!

                I just don’t know if you can be anti-Israel without being anti-semitic.

                Pretty sure you can’t, though.

                This is an area of discourse where you *usually* roll with the “I’m only interested in how the public views these things” but I think in this case you have a different take. More nuanced. More considered.

                I apologize for being hypocritical here, I guess?

                For what it’s worth, there are multiple publics here and among some of them you can’t criticize the leadership without being seen as anti-Semitic and, among others, you can claim that Israel is a White Supremacist ethnostate state that needs to be wiped from the map entirely and have people say, nah, that’s not anti-Semitic.Report

              • Stillwater in reply to Jaybird says:

                I just don’t know if you can be anti-Israel without being anti-semitic.

                Pretty sure you can’t, though.

                You’re dodging. “I’m anti-USA but I’m not anti-American citizen” seems like a perfectly coherent even if grammatically awkward sentiment. Why is Israel different?

                Add: I just find it odd, and curious, why you’re drawing hard lines under certain colloquial uses of language in this case when you reject those same types of uses in other contexts. I say that knowing that since I’ve been on this board you’ve been a defender of Israel and all….Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Stillwater says:

                I thought I gave the example of someone saying “I’m anti-Canada”?

                Anyway, I’d make a distinction between someone who says “I’m anti-Canada” when they mean “Trudeau is an idiot” and someone who says “I’m anti-Canada” and they think that Canada needs to be absorbed into Greenland.

                I would cheerfully say that the person who says “I’m anti-Canada!” but only means “Eh, Trudeau sucks” is overstating their opposition to Canada.

                Maybe the people who are saying “I’m anti-Israel!” only mean that they wish that Israel had a different political leader.

                If that’s what they usually mean when they say that, I’d agree with you 100%.

                Maybe it’s just an overstated criticism of Bibi.

                Lemme tell ya, I have a handful of problems with Bibi’s leadership myself.Report

              • Stillwater in reply to Jaybird says:

                Lemme tell ya, I have a handful of problems with Bibi’s leadership myself.

                (sigh) Anti-Semitism rears its ugly head again.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Stillwater says:

                Being anti-Israel probably is anti-Semitic. But there are a lot of serious criticisms you can make of Israel that get the knee-jerk response of “that’s anti-Semitic!” or, its close cousin, “that might be an appropriate criticism that someone might make in theory, but you’re only making it because you’ve learned to couch your anti-Semitism in respectable trappings!”Report

              • Stillwater in reply to Jaybird says:

                So you’re admitting that your criticisms of Bibi are a cover for anti-Semitism in general?

                You’re admitting that?

                Bold strategy.Report

              • Stillwater in reply to Jaybird says:

                Seems to me that what you’re really trying to do here is separate your own criticisms of Israel, which are absolutely not anti-Semitic, from *other people’s* criticisms which are absolutely 100% anti-Semitic even though the criticisms are the same.

                Good luck with that.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Stillwater says:

                Erm, no.

                I’m trying to get people to not start from “I’m anti-Israel”.

                Criticize the leadership! Criticize the government! Criticize the fact that the Orthodox don’t believe in eating cheeseburgers!

                Criticizing isn’t anti-Semitic!

                But being anti-Israel? Well, we’ll need to hammer out what that means, doesn’t it? Oh, you just have a handful of criticisms of countries that believe in borders? Fair enough.Report

              • Stillwater in reply to Jaybird says:

                Maybe you should stop trying to maneuver people where you want them to be and address them where they already are.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

                Unfortunately a great many people have decided that criticizing Israel means you are anti-Israel and thus anti-Semitic. Hell AIPAC believes that criticizing Israel is anti-Semitic.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

                Oh, yeah, they have! There are people who think that opposition to expanding settlements is anti-Semitic!

                Like, not that “it’s possible to use anti-Semitic language in one’s opposition to expanding settlements” but “if you oppose expanding settlements, you’re an anti-Semite!”

                And if the bar is that low to be anti-Semitic, well…

                There sure are a lot more anti-Semites running around than there used to be.

                (But it’s okay. Most of them just have reasonable policy differences.)Report

              • Stillwater in reply to Jaybird says:

                The weird thing about this response is that your sarcastic comment about nuance undermines your central point about nuance.

                You just can’t help yourself but to dig against “perceived enemies” even when it undermines your own coherence. Points scoring is all.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Stillwater says:

                In this case, I’m seeing people who say stuff like “I’m anti-Israel” as asking to be perceived as an enemy of Israel. A “perceived enemy”, if you will.Report

              • Stillwater in reply to Jaybird says:

                And an enemy of Israel is a Jew hater. A “perceived” Jew hater. Yes, I understand how you think about this….Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Stillwater says:

                You’re using “hater” when I wouldn’t necessarily go to that.

                There certainly are those who do!

                But there are also some who say “Death to Israel!” the way that college girls in 2015 said “#KillAllMen”.

                But opening with “I’m anti-Africa” and then getting upset when the term “racist” is trotted out is kinda weird. “How dare you call me a racist? I’m the *VICTIM* here!”Report

              • Stillwater in reply to Jaybird says:

                Frege hoped for a perfect language, once upon a time. You’re keeping the dream alive.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Stillwater says:

                I’m not hoping for perfect.

                I’m hoping to avoid the whole “how dare you interpret what I said in a way that only half of the people who say the things I said intend it instead of the way *I* intended it?!?”Report

              • Stillwater in reply to Jaybird says:

                Well, unlike you, I guess, I don’t think our political problems will be resolved by all of us agreeing to use words more precisely, as if that were even possible. I certainly don’t think they’ll be helped, either.

                “‘Market failure’ is a technical term, with a precise definition, you idiot.”

                The other thing is that you’re reading into people semantics a bunch of stuff that isn’t justified by their use. Eg, that when people say they’re anti Israel that their *actually* anti-Semitic. Do you really think your own problem interpreting them will be resolved by *their* more precise use of language? har harReport

              • Jaybird in reply to Stillwater says:

                I don’t think that they’ll be resolved by us using words more precisely.

                I do think that talking about the same thing at the same time is a pre-req to solving them, though.Report

              • Stillwater in reply to Jaybird says:

                Half of that project is up to you. Sometimes more.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Stillwater says:

                Well, we’ll see if anybody else thinks that it’s worth making a distinction between saying “I’m anti-Israel” and saying “Oh, boy. Yeah, I have criticisms of Israel’s government. How long do you have?”

                Maybe the general consensus is that it’s not a distinction worth making!Report

              • Stillwater in reply to Jaybird says:

                Or we can see if anybody other than you equates anti-israel with anti-Semitism in normal discourse.

                Myi guess is that people who say they’re anti-Israel follow up, when asked, with specific grievances that have nothing to do with Judaism.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Stillwater says:

                Well, don’t read the other comments, I guess.

                Is this one of those things where we’re operating under the assumption that a Proposition P cannot both be True and Racist or Sexist or Transphobic or Anti-Semitic?

                Because I’m one of those folks who believes that T or F operates on a plane orthogonal to that of Racism, Sexism, Transphobia, Anti-Semitism, etc.

                I suppose if I saw “That’s Anti-Semitic!” as identical to “That’s False!”, I’d be irritated as heck that it was hammered out, prior to any discussion at all, that being anti-Israel was automatically the wrong position to have.Report

              • Stillwater in reply to Jaybird says:

                “we’re” not operating under any assumptions.

                You’re operating under a bunch of them.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Stillwater says:

                Yeah. And one of them is that if we think that “we’re” not operating under any assumptions, it’s a lot more likely that we just haven’t thought about what they are than it is that we actually aren’t operating under any.Report

              • Stillwater in reply to Jaybird says:

                Oh OK.Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to Philip H says:

      My biggest problem with anti-Zionists is that they never seem to have a good answer to what happens to the surviving Jews of Europe or the MENA Jews or Ethiopian Jews without Israel. Another issue is that they compare real Israel to the Palestine that exists in their head rather than an actual realistic version of Palestine. So the fact that all Arab and Islamic politics during this time and the present was really exclusionary when it came to the Jews gets ignored.

      Without Israel, there would be no Jews in the MENA countries beyond small remnants. The Jews would have been either kicked out or forced into the same deal with the Devil bargain that other minorities had to do. There is no evidence that Palestinian politics would be any calmer or more liberal than the surrounding states.

      In Europe, the surviving Jews would mainly be under really hostile Communist regimes intent on cultural elimination. All Jewish life would be not permitted.

      To be anti-Israel is to be anti-Jewish because it puts millions of Jews in a perilous place.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to LeeEsq says:

        Another issue is that they compare real Israel to the Palestine that exists in their head rather than an actual realistic version of Palestine.

        If we could hammer out the differences between the actual Palestine and the imagined one, that’d probably be great.Report

        • LeeEsq in reply to Jaybird says:

          Palestinian supporters could listen to what the Palestinians themselves say but that might make supporting the Palestinians harder because the Palestinians have been very consistent with not wanting to deal with anything more than a small number of Jews that they could easily dominate in their homeland.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to LeeEsq says:

            I understand that the median opinion in Gaza is different from the median opinion in the West Bank.

            And it’s easy to pluck a genocidal opinion from the Gaza Strip and say “this is what Palestinians really believe!”

            So, too, for the West Bank.

            (I’m a three state solution guy, myself.)Report

      • InMD in reply to LeeEsq says:

        I don’t have a per se problem with Israel but I really don’t get why my tax dollars go towards giving them cash, weapons, and diplomatic cover. And I feel this way about any ME country. Though at least I sort of understand what we’re buying with the Saudis, and to a lesser degree the Gulf States, and Egypt, even if it’s still fundamentally wrong headed and a bad deal overall.

        What does Israel give back to America? They don’t have natural resources and aren’t a particularly good proxy due to unwillingness to operate within international norms. They’re probably the biggest threat to the non-proliferation regime behind Pakistan and North Korea. It’s all liability for the US. It’s hard to even call them a democracy anymore, just another feuding sectarian state among the other feuding sectarian states. Which hey, whatever, but they don’t need American help for that.Report

        • Stillwater in reply to InMD says:

          They’re probably the biggest threat to the non-proliferation regime behind Pakistan and North Korea.

          Having nukes in violation of the NPT isn’t a good look for enforcing the NPT.Report

          • InMD in reply to Stillwater says:

            I don’t believe they are a signatory. But the fact that we support them the way we do in spite of that and the well known fact that they have nuclear weapons certainly undermines whatever little credibility we have on the issue.Report

      • Philip H in reply to LeeEsq says:

        I’ll say it again – criticism of Israel’s actions as a nation state is no more being anti-Israel or anti-Semitic that criticism of the American government is treason. That it is so often cast as such by its defenders says more about them then anything else.Report

        • Chip Daniels in reply to Philip H says:

          But Israel is no more a monolith than the United States, or Alabama.

          There are plenty of Israeli citizens who disagree with their government’s action every bit as much as you do, and it doesn’t do them any favors to allow Netanyahu or the Likud Party to own the definition of “Israel”.Report

        • North in reply to Philip H says:

          Maybe you worded your original question wrong. You didn’t ask “So you do not accept the notion that you can criticize Israel without being anti Semitic?” you asked “So you do not accept the notion that you can be anti-Israel without being anti Semitic?”

          Anti-Israel is not the same as criticizing Israel.Report

          • Philip H in reply to North says:

            Given the answers received I’d say the wording was just fine, though our OP has remained steadfastly outside the fray. More’s the pity.Report

      • Kazzy in reply to LeeEsq says:

        I think we really, REALLY need to define these terms.

        Does anti-Israel mean you think Israel ought not exist? Or does it mean critical of the current government of Israel and its policies?

        Do anti-Zionist and anti-Israel mean exactly the same thing?

        And if being anti-Israel means being anti-Jewish, does that mean that being Jewish means supporting every and anything Israel does? Do American Jews have to answer for Israeli politics? Are American Jews put in a perilous place if Israel ceases to be?

        I realize the rules of logic don’t apply neatly to real life, but if we are going to do a bunch of “X = Y” then we have to examine all the different relationships between Xs and Ys and not-Xs and not-Ys.Report

        • Stillwater in reply to Kazzy says:

          Reducing criticism of a government’s policies to a hatred of the people that government represents is a trick as old as time. So it’s amusing when people pretend it’s a new thing that requires a new analysis.Report

          • InMD in reply to Stillwater says:

            What’s missing is what I think the core criticism actually is, that being the (wrongness of the) US subsidizing Israel. That is a criticism of United States foreign policy. And to bring it all the way back to the OP, that’s really the insight of Chomsky. Criticizing other countries where we don’t have a vote should come secondary to criticizing our own, where we as citizens at least in theory exercise some control.Report

            • Stillwater in reply to InMD says:

              I think that’s right. The other “insight” of Chomsky is that a negative critique of US foreign policy doesn’t require using foreign sourced information since our own media – the NYT, WAPO, NPR, etc – do a great job of it all on their own. All it takes is, as he said, the “clerical” work of compiling the data. Honestly, I’ve never understood the anti-Chomsky fanboyism that’s emerged in recent years because while it pretends to be an intellectually defensible position in the best traditions of Chomsky himself it’s obvious that those dudebros have never read the stuff Chomsky actually wrote.Report

              • InMD in reply to Stillwater says:

                I don’t get it either. Using the principle of charity I suppose it’s a critique of a certain kind of Chomsky fan masquerading as a critique of Chomsky. And sure, there’s always the guy at the undergrad coop who read the back of Manufacturing Consent and concluded that Marxist guerrillas in the jungle really could make the world a better place, if only the big bad Yankees would let them. Where it goes totally off the rails is when people believe engaging that guy is the same as engaging Chomsky. And it absolutely isn’t, not even close.

                To your point I think we’ve got people debating things they haven’t actually read.Report

              • Stillwater in reply to InMD says:

                Well, as a case in point, the OP writer thinks Buckley “destroyed” Chomsky in the Firing Line Debate, which is something you can only believe if you reject your own lying eyes.Report

        • LeeEsq in reply to Kazzy says:

          This all depends on who is speaking. Many people who see themselves as anti-Israel know that realistically destroying Israel is not going to happen but tend to side a lot more with the Palestinians than Israel. More than a few others think that the only just solution is one where Israel does disappear as a nation state and is replaced by Palestine. The most radical want all the Jews to go “home.”Report

    • Slade the Leveller in reply to Philip H says:

      Perhaps a better way to put it would be “I oppose the policies of the Israeli government.” The state of Israel and Jews are inextricably linked, so to aver that you’re anti-Israel necessarily means you’re anti-Semitic.Report

      • Philip H in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

        I have been told I’m anti-Semitic when I say I oppose certain policies, because said opposition MUST BE anti-Israel according to my interlocutors. So are many liberal commentators. Hell AIPAC all but called President Obama anti-Semitic for suggesting that Israel was not doing itself any strategic favors by allowing illegal settlements.

        And given that Israel houses a number of secular citizens, and has actual bonafied Arab citizens (separate from the Palestinians in Occupied Territory) I am not so sure that Israel as a state and the Jews as a people are as intrinsically linked as some here would like.Report

        • Slade the Leveller in reply to Philip H says:

          I guess at some point you have to cease caring what other people think about what you say. If people want to think you’re anti-Semitic for opposing illegal settlements, let ’em.Report

          • JS in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

            I’m not so sure it’s about “caring what people think” (I for one doubt AIPAC has any official stance on me, no matter what I might blather) as much as it is pointing out rather significant and driving factor in public discourse on the topic, at least in America.

            Even quite mild criticism of Israeli policy whips up cries of anti-Semitism in America. And by “mild” I mean “not even half as harsh as what you read in Israeli papers by Israelis about their own government”. And of course often times if that’s called out, you get the fun “So you’re denying anti-Semitism exists” response…Report

  2. Stillwater says:

    In light of this post I re-watched a bit of the Buckley-Chomsky Firing Line debate from 1969. I think it’s pretty clear that Chomsky won that debate, not in the “Noam Destroys Bill” sense, but that Chomsky presented more arguments and evidence than Buckley did. (I wanted to link a bit of it but can’t figure out how on my new computer.)

    When you wrote that Buckley “absolutely destroyed” Chomsky on Firing Line, were you referring to a different debate?Report

    • Russell Michaels in reply to Stillwater says:

      Near the end of the interview, they get into death tolls. Also, “bringing up evidence” is nonsense if the evidence is fake. This is what Chomsky does. He cites his work, even if those citations are false. He is infamous for believing Soviet propaganda for the death toll numbers in various communist countries. This is why WFBJ gets wide-eyed in complete disbelief when Chomsky tells him he believes the death toll numbers he does over the many sources WFBJ cites. It’s in hindsight you realize how awful Chomsky is.Report

  3. Elijah says:

    “Being anti-Israel probably is anti-Semitic.” What is anti-Semitism? That’s the key question. If you hate Jewish people as a group, that’s anti-Semitism and is wrong for the same reason that hatred for Palestinians (who are also Semites) as a group is wrong.
    It should be obvious that criticisms of the mass-murderous policies and actions of the militaristic government of Israel, or rabid anti-Arab Jewish settler-colonialists stealing Palestinian homes and lands, does not imply, by any stretch of reason, anti-Semitism, or hatred of Jewish people as a group.Report