Plato, “Gorgias” & ‘epistemic closure’
In Gorgias, Plato expands on many of the themes of the Republic while posing the implicit question: Why do democracies fail? In particular, why did Athenian democracy fail?Levin/Manzi debate raging in the blogosphere. Okay, now bear with me here!
In doing so, he makes a distinction between the Orator and the True Politician that brought to my mind theThe dialogue begins with Socrates trying to get the orator Gorgias to explain what his ‘art’ consists of. The short answer: oratory consists of persuading others through speech. Gorgias assumes that this art will not be used for ill, but admits that a good orator can persuade others of things of which they themselves have no knowledge. Socrates claims, moreover, that an orator is actually more persuasive before an ignorant audience than an expert because they have the same level of knowledge as the crowd- none. Gorgias claims a rhetorician needn’t have any special knowledge, beyond rhetoric, and seems to think this is a good thing, but Socrates is setting him up for a fall.
Socrates does not think oratory is an art at all. He makes an important distinction between techne (art or skill) and empieiria (a knack): the former is a body of knowledge that can be taught or acquired through learning, while the latter is acquired only by experience. Rather arrogantly, Socrates asserts that many knacks are spurious or counterfeit arts. So a doctor treats the body by the art of medicine, while a cook’s knack allows her to put things in our body that make us feel good but don’t really make the body healthier. We can disagree with this point- apologies to the cooks!
The distinction extends to the Legislator or true Politician, who treats the soul of the people, and the Orator or Sophist who persuades them, while not actually treating their soul. This is because a true Leader has knowledge of good and evil. He cultivates the qualities of order and proportion in his people, which allows them to do what’s good. The Orator simply tries to satisfy their desires.
In the last section, as in the Republic, Socrates explains that the soul is judged after death for deeds committed in life. Standing naked before a judge, the soul of a wrongdoer is sent to be punished in Tartarus, while the righteous soul goes to the Isle of the Blessed. This is a far cry from the ‘shades’ in Homer.
A few points here. First, politics is no laughing matter to Socrates: an orator who leads us to false knowledge isn’t just screwing with us; he’s fostering disproportionate desires in us that are damaging to our soul. Ultimately, all true knowledge leads towards the highest knowledge of good and evil. Therefore, a good Leader actually makes us better people by cultivating in us the quality of self-control that allows us to choose good, and thus saves our souls. Not even the most gung ho Obama or Palin supporter would claim something like that!
Secondly, Socrates is not a believer in democracy. The good Leader is an Expert- who has the ability to rule over us as he sees fit, without our consent. The mass of people, according to Socrates, will generally support an Orator, actually a Panderer, who satisfies their desires. Indeed, a pandering Orator seems akin to a Tyrant here, and the suggestion is that democracy leads naturally to tyranny. Instead, Socrates wants something like a spiritual elite to lead us with an eye to our well-being, whether we like it or not.
Where this reminds me of the “epistemic closure” debate is when we see Jim Manzi, a wonkish Expert if ever there was one, arguing with Mark Levin, a radio Orator, about a topic in which the former is particularly well-informed and the latter is not. One doesn’t have to be an elitist (although, I’ll tell you, it helps!) to find it bizarre that the two are held up by National Review as roughly equivalent authorities, or that we’re patting NR on the back for taking the wonk as seriously as they do the radio personality.
Maybe the medium really is the message. The panderer works best in the mass media. The television and radio mediums communicate through avatars, and so constantly produce dynamic and fascinating characters: the grizzled cop still heartbroken by his first love, the kindly priest with a drinking problem, the prostitute putting her kid through college by hooking, and indeed the angry, crying pundit railing against the vast conspiracy. As Socrates understood, the appeal of the panderer is that he allows us to both take part in the search for truth and be reassured that everything we think is right. He does a great performance of sincerity.
In this, the panderer is a bit like the psychopath- he mimics human interactions with the intention of manipulating others to his own ends. James Poulos cuttingly suggests that the problem with a psychopath like Glenn Beck (my term) is that he conflates performances of ultimate sincerity and sarcasm. He seems unable to stop performing. It’s all a game for Beck because, on some level, he doesn’t recognize political sincerity as anything but a fool’s errand. So, the real “relativism” isn’t to think that there are multiple, culturally-specific ways of getting at truth- of course there are!- it’s thinking that there is no truth, so one knack’s as good as another.
The real problem lies for people who see truth as a matter of being wise and well-informed about the real world. For them, the panderers pose a dilemma: sure it’s a con, but the con might point a greater number of people in the right direction: as I’ve heard more than a few liberals say about Michael Moore: “I don’t like his methods, but his heart is in the right place”. Plato elsewhere advocates the use of noble lies to cultivate good citizens.
The problem is that you can’t embrace the con without embracing the contempt. When you say that an Orator is equal to or greater than an Expert, you’ve got what George W.S. Trow called “a problem of scale” in the best book ever written about television. Trow felt that television is so awful because it presents vastly different information by the same techniques- a flood in Venezuela is thus treated with the same importance as a new fitness trend. An Orator is treated with the same respect as an Expert. The only way to accomplish this total obliteration of scale, and Trow saw this as the ultimate function of television, is to destroy all context and create a context of no context that can comment on itself. The rest of the broadcast media- including, I suspect, the Internet- apes television.
I don’t think that Mark Levin is a psychopath, or even that he’s lying, just that it’s beside the point if he is. His job isn’t truth- it’s persuasion. The problem is the cross-odds: the Expert uses debate as a means of arriving at truth, but the Orator uses debate to persuade others of their position, regardless of its truth. When political movements start to treat Orators as Experts- or really as their superiors since that they get ‘better numbers’- it’s because they see persuasion- that is, power– as being roughly interchangeable with truth. ‘Epistemic closure’, I think, is really this problem of scale- an inability to tell the higher from the lower.
What conservatism needs, then, is probably more elitism. There really is a scale of value, after all. There are higher things and lower things, which can be measured in the soul. A hint: the higher things are the ones worth ‘conserving’. Otherwise, “conservatism” just becomes a knee-jerk defense of privilege and power.
Endnotes:
1. Some of this is a bit tongue-in-cheek, as always. I thought it would be fun to wade into topics the blogosphere considers relevant. Next time, of course, I fully intend to return to the standard irrelevance.
2. I’ll probably keep plowing ahead with Plato, who I’ve never read all at once before. However, I am really itching to get to the shelf of Chinese philosophy in my study before too long.
I love this article. Great job connecting the classics to relevant debates today.Report
@BCChase, Oh, thanks! Admittedly, with some texts it’s easier to do that than others.Report
@Rufus F., it’s a good antidote to Sullivan-style “Beck and Palin are huge threats to our country!” blogging, to remember that this is just a new form of a problem that was there at the very birth of democracy, and every moment since then.Report
@BCChase, Well, it’s probably worth remembering that it was a problem at the deaths of a few democracies too! But, yeah, I definitely think that Sullivan is overstating the threat posed by media figures. Or, at least, I sure hope so.Report
Rufus, second only to Callicles, you are my hero.
Onto the essay, I think that Callicles made a rapier-like point where he said: “For the truth is, Socrates, that you, who pretend to be engaged in the pursuit of truth, are appealing now to the popular and vulgar notions of right, which are not natural, but only conventional. Convention and nature are generally at variance with one another: and hence, if a person is too modest to say what he thinks, he is compelled to contradict himself; and you, in your ingenuity perceiving the advantage to be thereby gained, slyly ask of him who is arguing conventionally a question which is to be determined by the rule of nature; and if he is talking of the rule of nature, you slip away to custom: as, for instance, you did in this very discussion about doing and suffering injustice.”
Look at that again:
and you, in your ingenuity perceiving the advantage to be thereby gained, slyly ask of him who is arguing conventionally a question which is to be determined by the rule of nature; and if he is talking of the rule of nature, you slip away to custom
DUDE! SOMEONE SAID THIS TO SOCRATES!!! RIGHT IN THE FACE OF SOCRATES HIMSELF, HE SAID THIS!
In the case of Socrates, he got called out on how he always took the opposite of the position of the opponent no matter what and to rely upon his own strength as a rhetorician rather than to have an anchor… which is an excellent description of politics in 20XX (so far). You first ask “what position does the other guy have?” and then you take the other and rely upon your own strenth as rhetorician to carry you through the rough spots. *THIS* is nihilism. There is no short-term future, there is no long-term future, there is only right now and what you, my enemy, or the enemy of my enemy of my enemy, is arguing.
Maybe it’s the wine talking but I can’t help but wonder what Socrates might have amounted to had he believed in something other than in proving points…Report
@Jaybird, That’s right! One of the frustrating things about this dialogue for me is that I can sense Plato letting the other characters get in a good crack at Socrates and then inexplicably agreeing to some statement that allows him to neatly trip them up. It seems way too convenient, for instance, that Gorgias agrees right off that an Orator needn’t have any other knowledge but speaking.
Socrates does tend to argue with everything. But I feel like, at least, Socrates had a motive for tying everyone else up in these logical knots. I’m sure there’s some academic term for this confusion that I don’t know, but it seems like he tries to get them completely confused and disoriented in order to then say, Okay, now that you’re not sure you know anything, let me tell you about the Form of the Good…
Another sort of implicit criticism of Socrates in the Gorgias is that he specifically says that a bad teacher will suffer because his students will turn against him. And you think, okay, is that what happened to Socrates with the Athenians? And, if so, does that mean he was a bad teacher?Report
@Rufus F., Heh, I can’t even say. I’ll just say what I was taught and hope that you don’t follow up.
Socrates was a thorn in the side of the powerful. His rhetoric skills were unmatched. He could make someone who argued that 2+2=4 and that bacon and eggs were good didn’t know what he was talking about and shouldn’t be taken seriously. He, of course, spent most of his time poking not only good and decent folk like Callicles but people with, let me capitalize this, POLITICAL POWER.
The people with political power *HATED* Socrates. While Socrates just loved to play the game, the folks with power had something to lose. They finally got into a staring match with Socrates and Socrates *REFUSED* to lose. Indeed, he refused to let his opponents pretend to win. They accused him of corrupting the youth and he said “that’s a capital offense, is it not?” and they said “yep” and he said “meet me on such and such a date where you, yourself, can give me the hemlock”.
They tried for exile, they tried for commuted sentence, they tried for probation.
Socrates drank it and gave a rooster to Asclepius.
And, to this day, we love Socrates and *HATE* those who dared challenge him… those with political power.
All that to say: his students didn’t turn against Socrates. It wasn’t the students at all… and he was a magnificent teacher.
And if he were here, he’d spend all of his time arguing against me, beating me, and explaining to me how stupid I am after the fact.
Would that more were like him.Report
@Jaybird, I hate to follow up, but that’s a really interesting point. I’ll have to get to reading the trial dialogues again. I always took it as Socrates had said that being punished is good for the soul and so he had to eat his words, so to speak. But I like your reading more.Report
@Rufus F., please, I beg you, keep in mind that I am crazy.Report
@Jaybird, Always.Report
Great post, Rufus.Report
@Will, Thank you, Sir!Report
I quite enjoyed this.Report
@Mark Thompson, Thanks- glad to hear it.Report
Magnificent!Report
@E.D. Kain, Hey, thanks. By the way, I really liked your recent immigration post over at True/Slant. You might want to post a variation of it here.Report
For the time being, let me suggest that you keep writing on Plato before turning to the other books on your wall. These are good posts. A post on the Apology would be good, but I’d be interested in your thoughts on piety and belief and the nature of the gods in the Euthyphro (which of course is connected to the trial dialogues). Or the Crito or Phaedo.
Regarding Beck and epistemic closure and the role of rhetoric, I don’t know if you’ve run across this curiosity indicative–at the least–of having too much time on one’s hands.
http://www.beckstudies.blogspot.com/Report
@John, That’s great! I had not seen that, thanks.
I’ll definitely do some more Plato. I guess that’s what’s making me think of the Chinese stuff- I’m curious about the Confucian gentleman and whether he’s comparable to the Socratic Guardian. It’s also interesting to me that Confucius and Plato are both writing about the ideal social order during times of serious upheaval. So, it’s all related.
But, yeah, I’ve been yearning to re-read Crito and Euthyphro too.Report
@Rufus F., The connection between the Confucian gentleman and Socratic Guardian would be good for me, as I know very little regarding Chinese thought.
Socrates recounting of “the laws” speeches in Crito would make for an interesting comparison to his guardians. Socrates–the man imprisoned–speaks for laws which can apparently speak for themselves but which were promulgated by men (or perhaps for Crito’s sake, by the gods).Report
@John, Well, I definitely don’t want to sound like I’m asserting cultural cross-pollination. At least there’s none that I know of. They’re just writing about very similar topics.
I might actually talk about that with the Euthyphro because I remember he was trying to get Socrates’ approval for ratting out his father, and there’s a similar story in the Analects in which a fellow tries to get Confucius’ approval for a kid in the village who turned in his Uncle for stealing a sheep. Interestingly, both of them disapproved in different ways.Report
Every time I see Glenn Beck I get the impression he’s daring his audience: Let’s see how much smarm and sarcasm I can get away with.
It’s highly likely that Beck despises his fans. The contempt is written all over that smug mug.Report
@A.R.Yngve, Yeah it’s a weird persona- it’s a bit like a cross between Eddie Haskel and Malcolm McDowell in Caligula.Report
Could it be that Beck is a Socratic figure? (JB, wonderful discourse!) Here’s a man who has taught the American people what a “progressive” is and by all accounts the Americans, those that tune in anyway, have come away with a certain knowledge.
Can Dear Leader do that?
The purpose of his rhetoric is to align, unify, define, and direct the parasite. And, it is to accuse the productive class of “social’ injustice.
Is Glenn Beck the modern Socrates speaking to the power of His Magnificence?Report
@Bob Cheeks, e.g. Glenn Beck as the American parrhesiast!Report
@Bob Cheeks, Well, Bob, you have officially blown my mind.Report
@Bob Cheeks,
Bob, Can you direct me to a Voegelinian text on parrhesias if there is one?
All I could find on the term was this interesting account.
http://foucault.info/documents/parrhesia/foucault.DT1.wordParrhesia.en.htmlReport
@John, Your link seems to satisfy the definition of the word, though my tendency is to follow Stefan Rossbach (The Gnostic Wars, Edinburgh University Press, 1999)2-5.
Rossbach, a brilliant scholar, writes that “Parrhesia is a mode of speaking in which language and being touch each other….What compels the parrhesiast to speak the truth in spite of the risks he face is his spirituality.”
Consequently, parrhesia is the mode of Solzhenitsyn, Bonhoffer, Luther, and of course, the Christ. When we meet a parrhesiast we must be still and listen because we may hear the distant voice of a holy truth.
I can’t find any Voegelinian reference to the word, and that’s a mystery to me.Report
@Bob Cheeks, Bob thanks for the reference to the Rossbach book. I will look it up.
But your reference to Solzhenitsyn has made me in a much better mood. For all of the terror and hardship he went through and that I have never experienced, his account of “the lie” has been life transforming for me. We can bless ourselves that there is no gulag at present, but Solzhentisyn’s account of the lie remains true. The best thing about the lie is that it shows the truth whether that truth be nature or revelation. Perhaps more fundamentally it deals with the distinction belief or unbelief.
Solzhentisyn and Luther–and Christ as you say–all offer an opportunity for a real lived life in terms of the truth.
I simply hoped for a Voegelinian text, as I’m doing an amateur study of Voegelin at present and wanted to see what he said about parrhesias other than the Foucauldians that I found online.
Regardless, thanks for the time.Report
@John, Good for you. Voegelin has the ability to open the door to the truth of things. He’s difficult to master, or at least to read with a certain degree of confidence. But, once you are able to read him he can move you to the truth of reality. Be sure you have a copy of Vol. 34 of the CW, Autobiographical Reflections. The essays are great but there’s a Voegelinian dictionary that will pay for itself.Report
@Bob Cheeks, I’ve got to get around to that too. I’ve got through the volume on political religions and gnosticism and two volumes of Order and History, but have a stack of Voegelin waiting for me. Also, my dissertation is dealing with French Romantic authors who were well-nigh obsessed with the idea that 19th c France should be led by a poetic prophet who could interpret the signs of nature, which sounds pretty much like political gnosticism to me.Report
@Bob Cheeks, Thanks for totally confusing the hell out of me Bob with your fancy vocabulary. I was actually keeping up with the comments until you popped in. I apparently have some reading to do!
Thanks for keeping me on my toes.Report
@John, The world is a mystical place. We are always on the cusp of the gulag, it is the nature of fallen man. and always remember Solzhenitsyn knew God and that love sustained him.Report
@Bob Cheeks, Thanks for the recommendation for a “dictionary” found in vol. 34. I read Autobiographical Relections in an LSU version. So I must read vol. 34. I read a Sandoz edited book and have Eugene Webb’s book, but I need something in Voegelin’s own terms.Report
@Bob Cheeks, After I read the entire Foucault lectures, I must say that I am impressed. And I am surprised at how clear it is. And good. Why am I surprised? Prejudice and what I had read from Foucault before. This lecture, however, was exceptionally good. Wow.Report
I’ve been too busy at work to comment on your last few posts, but I must say this is really good!
And to tie in another of the memes du jour, I think there’s something here that might refine Noah Millman’s political taxonomy. Something like, how willing are we to settle for Authority in the absence of true Elites?
Which is to say you can learn a lot about someone’s politics by asking how they feel about, say, Alcibiades (although then I guess you’d have to ask whether they’re looking at Xenophon’s or Plato’s portait of him).Report
@Paul B, That’s interesting- I wonder if Socrates doesn’t accept Authority in the absence of true Elites in the end.
It actually reminds me a W.C.Fields line that the Socratic expert might keep in mind that went something like, if you intend to tell the people the truth, you should try to make them laugh in the process, because, otherwise, they’re going to try to kill you!Report
John, excellent, then you might want to get Vol. 12, Published Essays, 1966-85 and everyone of these essays is a noetic/pneumatic epiphany..guarentted!Report
Rufus, I am ignorant of the FR. romantic authors, so God bless your work and I hope that when you’re done with the diss. you’ll link us to it. You might enjoy that Vol. 12 of Published Essays as well.Report