The Mission
The administration of the great system of the universe … the care of the universal happiness of all rational and sensible beings, is the business of God and not of man. To man is allotted a much humbler department, but one much more suitable to the weakness of his powers, and to the narrowness of his comprehension: the care of his own happiness, of that of his family, his friends, his country…. But though we are … endowed with a very strong desire of those ends, it has been entrusted to the slow and uncertain determinations of our reason to find out the proper means of bringing them about. Nature has directed us to the greater part of these by original and immediate instincts. Hunger, thirst, the passion which unites the two sexes, and the dread of pain, prompt us to apply those means for their own sakes, and without any consideration of their tendency to those beneficent ends which the great Director of nature intended to produce by them. – Adam Smith (from The Theory of Moral Sentiments)
In the comments to Anantharaman Muralidharan’s post on doctors and bankers Tod Kelly wrote:
I think everyone is focusing too much on the service aspects of both careers; the real difference between doctors and bankers is the mission of each. A banker exists to make a profit; a doctor to heal the sick. One is inherently self-serving, the other not.
Russell and I each wrote recently about the movement to stop inducing early births. The movement has everything to do with patient health; the old way was more profitable. What’s more, inducing early births led to complications, which led to more items a doctor could bill his patients for over time. The movement to eliminate non-medicaly necessary early birth has not been brought about by lawsuits, of government fines, or really anything that was damaging doctors financially. It is being done because it is better for the patient.
Bankers would not make a decision to improve the lives of their clients at the expense of their own profits. In fact, if they did they would be summarily fired – and we would all agree that this was proper and correct.
That is the difference between doctors and bankers.
Read it again, because we’re going to seriously deconstruct and qualify it.
At first I was dumbfounded by this comment’s truth-mass. I’m often tempted by intentionalism or grand strategy or other macro considerations (hereafter referred to as “missionism”), as if simply directing agents towards some constructed ideal is sufficient to solve most institutional problems. The following quote from F.A. Hayek – one of my favorite quotes – can perhaps be read in support of missionism, although it can be read otherwise:
“An experiment can tell us only whether any innovation does or does not fit into a given framework. But to hope that we can build a coherent order by random experimentation with particular solutions of individual problems and without following guiding principles is an illusion. Experience tells us much about the effectiveness of different social and economic systems as a whole. But an order of the complexity of modern society can be designed neither as a whole, nor by shaping each part separately without regard to the rest, but only by consistently adhering to certain principles throughout a process of evolution.”
In this light, let us unpack Tod’s comment and see whether the idea that it is the mission of doctors to be selfless and it is the mission of bankers to be selfish holds up to close scrutiny.
I. We must think of the professions as specialized services provided for a customer or client.
Tod:
(1): I think everyone is focusing too much on the service aspects of both careers; a banker exists to make a profit; a doctor to heal the sick. One is inherently self-serving, the other not.
I disagree with this characterization. Who is to say a banker who allocates funds to only morally-praiseworthy causes doesn’t exist? Who is to say a doctor who practices medicine only to make money doesn’t exist (i.e. some plastic surgeons, doctors who treat only wealthy patients)? And who is to say that selfless bankers and selfish doctors are not net benefits to society? The only way to allow for the existence of such anti-mission professionals is to conceptualize the professions – banking and doctoring (and lawyering, blacksmithing, coopering, etc.) – as specialized services provided for a customer or client. And it is no wonder that, before the obsession with missionism and “proper roles” for discrete occupations that – I would argue – has plagued our society since the day we first imagined our best and brightest could design it all from scratch, one’s occupation was thought of simply as one’s “service”. Indeed, in many languages, the words for “serve” and “work” are one and the same. Society has always functioned most smoothly and most organically when professionals serve only their clients and not some overarching master or principle, where knowledge is local and specific, and deeds are performed for people and not institutions, abstractions, or policies.
II. The medical profession is an example of incentives working in phase with each other to foster a solid institutional structure that benefits all.
Tod:
(2): Russell and I each wrote recently about the movement to stop inducing early births. The movement has everything to do with patient health; the old way was more profitable. What’s more, inducing early births led to complications, which led to more items a doctor could bill his patients for over time. The movement to eliminate non-medicaly necessary early birth has not been brought about by lawsuits, of government fines, or really anything that was damaging doctors financially. It is being done because it is better for the patient.
I’m not sure about this on a few different levels. First, I’m skeptical that inducing early births is always more dangerous than allowing nature to take its course. Granted, if the decision is based on the doctor’s tee time instead of the patient’s health, inducing early births is probably a bad thing; however, inducing early births remains a common practice in Japan, a nation which has a (far) superior public health record than we do, specifically when it comes to infant mortality. Empirically at least, it seems to me that the dangers of inducing early births is an area where evidence-based medicine leaves room for reasonable people to disagree.
Tod claims that the shift towards inducing fewer early births is occurring not because of any financial considerations but because it is a doctor’s mission to serve the health interests of the patient. I am aware that I may be making a straw man of Tod here, inadvertently, and apologize if I am. Yet, there are many cases where both the mission of the doctor and the interests of the patient align (and they almost always should align, really. This is a huge reason why I made the decision to become a doctor instead of a banker: I’ll rarely have to do something morally dubious in order to save my career.) However, it is also in the doctor’s financial best interest to secure the health of the patient; that is to say, there are very real financial considerations that are in phase with both what we morally expect from doctors and with what clients (i.e. patients) can be reasonably expected to desire as services. Having these different spheres of incentives in phase with each other is crucial, it seems, to the institutional robustness of the medical profession in the United States. To assume an intentionalist causality as Tod does is naive. The reason why we can take for granted that altruism motivates the actions of doctors is (perhaps) because it is in the financial interest of doctors to be altruistic. Yet, we will never know the true reasons why doctors continue to serve patients, because we’ve created a structure that does not allow for anything else, where all vectors point towards universally-desired outcomes. Good for us.
III. The banking sector is an example of incentives out of phase with each other to produce the present mess.
From Tod:
(3) Bankers would not make a decision to improve the lives of their clients at the expense of their own profits. In fact, if they did they would be summarily fired – and we would all agree that this was proper and correct.
Again, I strongly disagree with Tod on this. Many bankers – perhaps most bankers – would actually invest in the kinds of services that their clients demand they invest in. In an ideal world and in an ideal institutional structure, these bankers would secure reputations for meeting the demands of clients and thereby attract more clients. (In the sense that the actions of bankers in the real world may represent a net loss for society, whereas doctors are almost always good for society, whether or not this has to do with the proper mission or quality of service the banker provides is epiphenomenal to how that service manifests.) The real problem with the banking sector is that – unlike the medical care sector (I’d argue that health care, in contrast to medical care, suffers from some of the same institutional problems the banking sector does.) – different classes of incentives (those of the individuals directly involved, moral incentives, and those of society) are out of phase with each other. One of the side effects of this is that it actually has the potential to create a zero-sum game.
Many of the young analysts I know often don’t work for clients or don’t know their clients or they don’t have clients – they merely crunch numbers or create computer algorithms for faceless institutions to use to win at the margins. Their movements are really responses to policy more than they are investments in worthy causes. Thus, the present lack of clear economic policy, the lack of central direction, is what keeps aggregate investment stagnant and oscillating still today: institutionally, the banking sector has developed an addiction to central direction, and central direction may be the only way to get it working again.
Widespread dishonestly and malfeasance in the finance sector is an indication that there is something that is encouraging bankers to neglect their own long-term livelihoods in favor of short-term rewards. In short, the incentives are perverse. To correct them requires an institutional structure where (1) bankers serve clients, (2) individual financial incentives for such service exist, and (3) the outputs of the financial system provide a net moral benefit to society. Such is the kind of system Adam Smith described first in the Theory of Moral Sentiments and later in the Wealth of Nations.
IV. Towards a general theory of institutional health
I have argued here that to think of professions as anything but mechanisms for services provided for people is counter-productive and of net-negative value for society. I have examined briefly how the medical profession represents a healthy institution, where individual financial, societal, and moral incentives align. It is good financially for doctors to serve the interests of their patients. It is good for society to have doctors meet the needs of patients, and it is morally praiseworthy for doctors to serve patients. I have also argued that the banking sector, seen through this same framework of classes of incentives being in phase or out of phase with other classes of incentives, can be seen as a broken institution. We have created structures where it is in the financial interest of bankers to screw their clients. It is bad for society for bankers to fail to meet the needs of their clients. And it is doubtlessly a great moral crime for bankers to take money from clients while failing to provide the services they were payed to provide.
To fix the financial system in this country, we need to fix the incentives structure. This starts with creating incentives for bankers to serve clients, which may mean decentralization, policy or social changes. Additionally, we need to ensure that individual bankers are rewarded for such proper behavior and punished for negative behavior. Finally, we also need to ensure that the financial system benefits society (which really is just us in aggregate) by allocating funds towards causes which seem like they will benefit a great number of people (i.e. things which people are willing to pay money for, i.e. things which will increase the general welfare) instead of causes which will benefit only a small group of people (i.e. speculation, re-packaged assets, accounting tricks); this should naturally follow from the first two conditions in the manner described by Smith provided we establish the proper incentives.
The question is: how do we get there?
It appears I have to be careful about what I say even in my comments!
However, if the early-baby argument isn’t to your liking, let me try a different tack:
A banker will, when faced with the prospect of evicting a family from their home for late payment, do so readily. Unless you can convince the banker that he can make more profit over the long haul by letting your family keep a roof over your head, you will be SOL.
A doctor will not, at least consciously, look at a sick person and make a decision about which treatment would be more profitable to determine a course of action – and I think Russell would tell you that in many situations doctors and emergency rooms treat people that need care even if they cannot pay.
This is not to say that doctor’s do not experience greed, or selfishness – or that bankers cannot be altruistic. But the mission of an organization is important to that organizations culture.
For example, I work with social service agencies that serve people with developmental disabilities. Funding is always an issue for these organizations. There are some that are actually for-profit organizations, that answer to investors. They will jettison those people with more pronounced disabilities that are more expensive to serve if other costs rise, rather than cut back on profit to investors. The non-profit organizations do not, and will go so far as cutting management salaries when necessary. In Texas, there are many vocational rehab facilities for people with developmental disabilities that are for-profit that have stopped hiring the disabled for most positions to increase production; the non-profits would never do such a thing.
This is because even though each organization serves the DD population, the for- and the nons- have different missions, and run their organizations accordingly.
They just do.Report
There’s a big difference between allowing someone to die when you have the skills to save them and not allowing someone the rare privilege of owning their own home when it is costing you and your company significantly.Report
A doctor will not, at least consciously, look at a sick person and make a decision about which treatment would be more profitable to determine a course of action
But they might look at a healthy person and make such a decision.Report
I will probably comment at greater length about this in a post of my own, maybe later this week. That said, and conceding that some doctors may order unnecessary tests to feather their own nests, as someone who has ordered tests he knows weren’t medically “necessary,” the motivation to do so if often totally divorced from any profit motive. I may absolutely no money either way when it comes to ordering tests, and when I order them even if I don’t think they’re needed it’s with other considerations in mind.
But again, I’ll probably post more about this outright later.Report
If you ordered the tests so that you wouldn’t get sued, then you made an economic decision to reduce costs. And it’s a decision that can, in fact, be judged on strict cost basis.
“These tests will cost five hundred dollars. If I don’t do them there’s a one-percent chance I’ll get sued. The cost of a settlement is one million dollars. One percent of one million is one thousand, which is more than five hundred, therefore it’s economically preferable to order the tests.”Report
What an awfully cynical outlook you have, DD.
No, I really don’t do them because I fear getting sued. Even the most irritated and unreasonable parents are unlikely to sue.
When I order tests that aren’t strictly necessary, it’s almost always because I know the patient/parent’s peace of mind won’t really be assured until it’s been done. It’s not a particularly wonderful reason to order tests, and I really, really try hard to minimize the extent to which this happens, but sometimes it’s the least bad option available.Report
…so your attitude is that your patients are petulant children who need placebo testing in order to feel like the doctor “fixed” something and therefore things are better?
I suppose “veiled contempt” is better than “defensive medicine” but I’m not really sure how.Report
How unfortunate that you infer contempt on my part. Regardless, it seems to me the tone of the conversation has become sufficiently snide as to obviate any desire on my part to continue it.Report
Hey, whatever makes you feel happier. Just remember this conversation when you cry about how Americans spend so much on doctoring and get so little in return.Report
Geeze, Duck, you over-generalize at the drop of a hat. It’s like you can’t help yourself. Given a position and an alternate, you have to push on the alternate until it’s wayyy over there!
There is a wide chasm of difference between, “in rare cases, which I work hard to avoid and reduce, I make the measured judgment that a small subset of my patients require psychological assistance via placebo testing” and “all my patients are petulant children”.Report
I’m glad you agree with me that it’s a pointless waste of patients’ money being used as a placebo.Report
That is not what I said.
Point of fact, a placebo treatment has a measurable level of efficacy. So ordering a placebo treatment isn’t necessarily bad medicine. It depends on how much it costs.
I can imagine ordering a $5,000 MRI exam would qualify to your point. A $5 strep culture given to one patient out of 250 is hardly the cause of our ballooning medical costs.
But you go on being yourself, Duck. Black. White.Report
I had the same cynical response as Mr. Duck, but I get your reasoning. I’ve found that both of my last two physicians have come to like me just because I’m not the type of patient you’re talking about here. I recently had a talk with my doc about whether it was time for me to start worrying about my prostrate, maybe get it examined. Doc looks somewhat uncomfortable, we have an intelligent discussion about my age, what I’m experiencing, the state of our current knowledge concerning dealing with the prostrate, I agree there’s no reason for me to have any concern or get tested at this time, Doc looks greatly relieved that I haven’t pressed to get tested anyway.
Report
“A doctor will not, at least consciously, look at a sick person and make a decision about which treatment would be more profitable to determine a course of action…”
“She’s in here all the damn time, give ‘er a Tylenol and send ‘er home” is most certainly a decision about which treatment would be more profitable–in the sense of allocating limited resources (a doctor’s time) to the places where they’ll give the best return (helping suture a wound instead of pretending like you need to get a full case history for the tenth week in a row just in case this time it’s a heart attack instead of boredom.)Report
“You have no insurance? See you later.”Report
To be fair, that doesn’t really happen in emergency rooms. In Massachusetts hospitals, it takes about fifteen minutes for a patient to sign up for MassHealth before being discharged, so the hospital can at least get some money from the state.Report
Sorry, Captain One-Liner, but that’s illegal.Report
Legal or not, it does happen. But more broadly, sick people who cannot pay are in fact turned away, as long as their condition is non-emergency.
Because, since we as a society have decided that doctors are nothing more than car salesmen and chemotherapy is no different than a Corvette, if you are sick and have no money, you may very likely die.
This is simply the truth which many discussions of health care prefer to avoid or brush aside.Report
A banker will, when faced with the prospect of evicting a family from their home for late payment, do so readily
A doctor will not, at least consciously, look at a sick person and make a decision about which treatment would be more profitable to determine a course of action
These two aren’t really commensurate — either make the first one something like “A banker will, when presented with a family applying for a mortgage, push the one that offers himself or his institution the greatest profit regardless of what is in their best interests” (and this is hardly self-evident), or make the second “A doctor will not deny treatment to a patient who’s likely unable to pay for the service”. In the latter case, while there’s a cultural and to some extent legal obligation to provide the service regardless of ability to pay, there’s also an overall compensation structure that takes that obligation into account.
Report
Cheers, Mr. Carr, for citing Adam Smith’s other, and better book. You are wise men both.
I don’t think Adam Smith in either book obviates the necessity of ethics. Neither does he ignore charity:
“How selfish soever man may be supposed, there are evidently some principles in his nature which interest him in the fortune of others and render their happiness necessary to him though he derives nothing from it except the pleasure of seeing it.”
The problem I have in many discussions hereabouts is that business is conflated with the need for charity. [And worse, that [pity-]charity is a no-no: what someone needs is transformed into a “right.”]
But one runs his business as a business, no more no less: he is obliged to act ethically, no more, no less. Your doctor [or auto mechanic] is unethical to repair your body or car in the way that suits him best, but not necessarily you. It’s the nature of the relationship: in a real way, doctor and mechanic are your employees, work for hire.
But the banker is an equal party to any agreement, and is bound to act in his own interest as long as it’s ethical. As are you.
To run a bank like a charity would miss Smith’s whole point about the “invisible hand.” The butcher does not give meat out for free or for less than its cost. He would go bankrupt, and then there wouldn’t be a butcher in town atall.
Report
[And worse, that [pity-]charity is a no-no: what someone needs is transformed into a “right.”]
My main hang-up is the question of whether something that does not exist could possibly qualify as a Human Right. It seems obvious to me that it cannot. It seems to me that it follows that something that is a limited good therefore cannot be a Human Right… it cannot be the case that something is a Human Right until it runs out, at which point it ceases to be a Human Right. That Makes zero sense to me.
I’m sure I’ve gone off on a rant about this before, though.Report
Hm.Report
It seems we are comparing two of the most screwed up, convoluted, over-regulated industries to each other.
There is no free medical care. There is a system of forced subsidization and missing feedback between cost and payment. This is sending health care into a spiral of un-affordability. Health care is the last field I would use as a model.
When I go to a banker it is because I want to get a loan or deposit some money in a safe place. If I take out a loan, I want the interest that goes with the terms. I can get a heck of a lot better deal if I put something up as collateral. This is an expected win/win. If somebody wants to create a world where you get loans and don’t put up collateral (not really that is), then go for it. But expect to pay about ten times higher interest rates. No thanks!
If Tod or his evil twin Kelly wants to establish a charity for people who can’t pay back loans, they should jump right into it. Please don’t ask any banker to do this though. You’ll screw the industry up even more.
The key premise of any industry or service is to benefit the producer by benefiting the customer. I agree with Tom. Free enterprise doesn’t work via altruism or charity. It works by setting up simple systems of expected win/win outcomes. When I get medical care I agree to pay. When I get a loan I agree to pay or lose my collateral. The banker, the doctor and I all expect to gain.
Report
In the comments to Anantharaman Muralidharan’s post
Thanks for giving my full name! (Though I do want to ask why?)Report
1. It’s a fun name to pronounce; very lyrical.
2. To remind everyone you’re a foreigner, hence certainly a terrorist, and so we can reject everything you say without examining it.
Report
3. Because your “opposite” alter ego’s name would be substantially more difficult to pronounce.Report
Its not like Mainamarbusalab Nek is any easier to pronounce than IlarumReport
That would be my alter ego’s name if I were my uncle’s son…Report
shoot, did I get your surname wrong? sorry!Report
No problem. I’m assuming you glanced at my email addy a bit too quickly. (If you came up with that from nothing more than my handle, it was a helluva close guess!)Report
I’m assuming you glanced at my email addy a bit too quickly
Yeah (I searched trhough my emails and kicked myself for getting it wrong)
Also, I appologise if I inadvertantly nearly revealed your name (if you object to my doing so)
BTW do you live in Madison Connecticut?Report
Yup, that’s where I am. I get the sense that my first+last name is a globally unique identifier, so whatever you find on Google is likely referring to me. Do you have some familiarity with the area, or were you just fine-tuning the search?
Re anonymity, I’d prefer that a search on my name not lead here, but I don’t care if people here know my name (I’m trusting in the absence of stalker tendencies among the commentariat). So the reversal would not have been a problem if it had been correct.Report
A couple (fairly frivolous) reasons exist: (1) I don’t like the first-name/nickname nomenclature norm of the blogosphere; (2) I like your name. I think we should have to learn to spell it instead of you having to simplfy it for us; and (3) I aspire to be the Kenny Mayne of the League.Report
I like your name. I think we should have to learn to spell it instead of you having to simplfy it for us
Thanks 🙂
However, i dont use my full name except in official documents (like formal contracts). I really think of myself as just Murali. Murali really is what I get everyone to call me in daily life. So, its not a special blogospheric thing. Murali just is my use-name. So, it is feels really odd to be called Anantharaman Muralidharan in a less than official setting.
Report
Fair enough!Report
I have, unfortunately, been busier today than is often the case, so I haven’t had a chance to read this and respond with the depth it deserves.
I did want to make a small comment to clarify something about the particular case Tod brought up, which is the induction of near-term infants. I am not arguing that doing so is always more harmful than allowing the baby to go to full term, nor that the outcome is more likely to be increased mortality. Indeed, advances in the care of premature infants have made mortality an unlikely outcome, even when there is an adverse effect from induction, Thus, if you compare mortality rates as an outcome measure, you may miss the effect.
However, it has been relatively convincingly shown that inducing infants at near term does lead to increased complication (for example, respiratory distress), increased NICU admissions, increased testing (eg X-rays) and intervention (supplemental oxygen), all of which increase costs.Report
Thanks for the clarification. I’m looking forward to your full response.Report
All of this is such BS. If docs are such good folks only looking out for their patients then why is the Stark law governing physician self-referral of patients to a medical facility in which they has a financial interest even necessary? As if docs never order unnecessary treatments or over code to make money. All this stuff about bankers only caring about about filthy lucre is just a smoke screen for liberal moralizing. Of course bankers are trying to make a profit, duh. If they don’t, their bank goes out of business. If a doc doesn’t make money, their hospital lets them go or if they are solo practitioners they have to close their practice. Liberals wants to pillory bankers b/c the profit motive is much evident in their case than with the supposed noble practitioners of the healing arts.Report
Scott, I think you make a good point and one that is probably underrepresented at the League right now. I wish you had made it without assuming malicious intent or ignorance on the part of those with whom you disagree. .Report
CC:
Do you really think such facial comparisons are made intelligently or in good faith? Maybe I was a bit harsh, I guess I shouldn’t post when tired. However, I have yet to see anyone tell me I’m wrong.Report
Well, my entire argument is that the structure we’ve created makes your argument about doctors insignificant and unverifiable. And I’m arguing that bankers could be morally positive for society if they allocated funds to worthy causes instead of effectively stealing from their own clients because they can.Report
Christopher,
You actually believe that bankers — overall — are not currently filling a positive role for society? That the hundreds of millions of loans and deposits made in this country are not “worthy causes?” That they are “effectively stealing?”Report
Here is my preference order:
1. A world where bankers allocate funds to promising businesses.
2. The present world, with a mixture of productive, honest investment and taking advantage of loopholes for quick cash.
3. A world where bankers speculate, manipulate prices, and respond to government policy.
Yours?Report
Christopher
Yes I prefer a utopian world. Your argument seems to be that a significant share of banking is worthless or unproductive manipulation and the equivalent of stealing. What data are you using to come to the conclusion that banking is less productive than other industries?Report
Roger, your comment seems to suggest that either (1) speculation does not exist or that (2) it’s not a problem. I’d argue that it is a problem, and, if you want I could cite lots of sources on the rise of speculation and its associated costs.
A more-interesting question is whether speculation is replacing investment or replacing other non-financial activities. There have been lots of studies recently on the increasing numbers of our best and brightest that are going into finance instead of going into medicine or engineering or the civil service (IMHO just looking around over the last ten years suggests the government is attracting increasingly stupid and incompetent individuals.) I wouldn’t think this were a problem if these people were going on to study individual companies and make decisions on which to invest in. But, many are exerting their efforts towards creating complex computer algorithms to capitalize on policy loopholes or to be that much quicker than the other guy.
What societal benefit is there to this? I don’t think hoping for a finance sector that actually finances industries instead of speculating is utopian, at all, or else, we’ve been a utopia at several points in our history already.Report
Thanks Christopher,
Your position is clearer now. It is not banking, finance or bankers which you are concerned with, but speculators.
If your position is that regulations and rules have gotten ridiculously complex and thus encourage pointless arms races to find relative advantages within the rules (I call this rule wrestling) and that the potential for government bailouts of stupid or risky activity has led to absurd speculation and wealth transfers…. then I agree.
I would consider this a small but toxic part of banking or finance.
My position is that free enterprise works by limiting commercial activities to voluntary win/win interactions. I certainly see that some areas of speculation (futures, risk mitigation, etc) work this way. I do agree that some areas have become toxic. I also agree that regulations, government interference and bailouts helped create this market anomaly. It needs to be fixed to bring incentives back in line.
Feedback?Report
I agree completely.Report
OK,
Now that we agree completely on the problem, your question was what should be done about it?
I’d suggest simple, consistent financial rules, preferably sanctioned by a supermajority with a sunset provision. Just as importantly, I would not approve bailouts. Failure, dishonesty and stupidity need to be penalized within the free market.
Of course, I do not believe we will get THERE from HERE. Old states, institutions and economies become sclerotic over time. We need fresh institutions.
By the way, I will repeat that the heath care industry is even more sclerotic and encrusted with regulations and privilege seekers. It needs a refresh as well. I am pretty sure I will get my some of my future health care out of country. I can now fly to Costa Rica and get good care for a fraction of the cost. I need to find an out-of-country health care network to invest in. I would LOVE it if my HCA encouraged out of country care.
Russell, do you know if any of these exist?Report
CC:
I definitely vote for the fantasy land with rainbows and unicorns. So when the banker in that fantasy land tell his bank’s shareholders that there money is gone but not to worry b/c the bad loans were made based on moral considerations and not the ability to pay the loan, they should be okay with it?Report
Scott, I agree with Milton Friedman that corporations should be responsible to only their shareholders (You’re right to point out that the corporations that don’t do this lose, but you’re wrong to make me into a straw man.). I believe CSR is the real fantasy land with rainbows and unicorns.
I reserve the right not to purchase a corporation’s products if I disapprove of how that corporation conducts business. This should be enough 99% of the time. We’re adults, and we should have the rights and responsibilities of adults when it comes to the consumer economy. If we want to spend all our money on Snuggies, so be it. Resorting to the morons in Congress to enforce the crude, regressed judgment of the masses should be a last resort.
That being said, the situation is complicated if an industry proceeds from the government, such as our financial system, which emerges from standards and structures set by the government and the quasi-governmental Federal Reserve and goes running home to Daddy anytime the economy takes a hit (a la the bailouts). To pretend that the financial sector is free is either ignorance or willful ignorance. To say that the government has no right or no responsibility to fix that which it has destroyed is similarly twisted methinks.Report
CC:
I’ve got news for you. Doctors taking financial advantage of their patients by referring them to medical facilities in which they had a financial interest was such a problem that even a liberal like Rep. Stark thought it was necessary to make it illegal. Too bad it took a federal law to make some docs more moral, I guess they aren’t that different from bankers.Report
I’m not really familiar with that law because it probably never made the news, but as you’re framing it, I’m not really seeing a huge problem. People tend to refer people to places they’re familiar with, and if they have a financial interest in that place, they want to see it succeed, and they may even recommend it to clients. How would that be different from referring someone internally?
Granted, it may be dishonest to refer someone to a place where one has a financial interest if that particular place is demonstrably substandard, but this is neither qualitatively nor quantitatively at the same level as, say, Goldman Sachs taking tax dollars for multi-million-dollar bonuses or credit card companies raising people’s interest rates and fees without informing them in order to extract more fees and interest rate hikes.Report
CC:
“I’m not really familiar with that law because it probably never made the news”
Really, never made the news? Thanks for the laugh. Maybe we should ask Russell since your knowledge of the health care industry seems to be lacking.Report
Could you send me a link, so I can become more familiar with what you’ve described as such a huge problem?Report
http://starklaw.org or just Google stark law.Report
So now I’m seeing that it’s only for medicare and medicaid patients, which makes this an even more insignificant problem than previously thought.Report
First of all, I’m embarrassed to admit I didn’t know you were a doctor until reading this post. Or perhaps I knew and forgot. Regardless, I wasn’t really aware that you were a fellow physician.
I agree with almost everything you wrote. As a general rule, I assume most people try to do the right thing most of the time, in their jobs and otherwise. Thus, I assume most bankers want to do right by their investors, most engineers want to design good technology, most lawyers want to represent their clients well, etc. And as people have already mentioned upthread, there are easy examples of doctors valuing lucre over the best clinical decision-making for their patients. I wrote about my own experience with some of them here. Things work best for everyone when, as you say, incentives are in phase.
Where I agree with Tod is that the moral incentive is weightier with some professions than others. This isn’t to say that there is no moral incentive to go into business, for example, but that it doesn’t predominate the way it does when one enters a field that is directly linked to the welfare of those you work for. Money or merchandise serves as something of a buffer between the banker or merchant and the direct welfare of the investor or client. The moral element, while present, becomes more diffuse.
By way of contrast, physicians and nurses (and lawyers and teachers and police officers, etc) are directly involved with the immediate human needs of the people for whom they work. The moral element is more proximate and harder (but not impossible) to ignore. This makes it relatively less likely that the moral, personal and social incentives will become misaligned.Report
You make several good points here. I’ll have to take some time to think about them.Report
Russell,
I’m not a doctor. Thanks for the compliment though! I am a medical student, currently at the lowest level of the totem pole – i.e. not even in medical school, just taking a postbacc premed course. Maybe I should have used the language, “decided I wanted to become a doctor someday” or some-such to avoid confusion.Report
Now I think I remembered this about you. Ah, well… we all had to start somewhere. Best of luck!Report
Thanks. We’ll see how far my non-traditional background and apparent lack of social skills can get me. So far this week alone, I’ve had two science journalists – one a former staff member of the AMA – publishing personal information and bad-mouthing me all over the Internet; and just this morning I was thrown out of the Department of Public Health for reasons I still don’t understand.Report
Oh, dear. That’s terrible!
Well, if it’s any comfort, I can assure you that I went to medical school with a few specimens whose social skills were noticeably lacking. Though I’ve never actually met you, you certainly seem like a personable chap.
Report
I think I’m a pretty decent dude, Russell, but occasionally I seem to unwittingly attract the ire of an individual, and I can never figure out why. It’s almost always an academic, though, and I’m wondering if there’s a pattern.Report