Strange Things Allegedly Believed by Others
“I see it’s ‘Dump on Libertarians Week’ again at Crooked Timber,” said the Stoic.
“Indeed,” said the Cynic. “It appears to be a regular feature there.”
“What is it this time?” asked the Stoic.
“The usual. Some libertarian said something stupid, and off they went,” said the Cynic.
“If only all ideologies had to police themselves so carefully,” said the Malthusian. “But who would do all the work?”
“Don’t ask the libertarians,” said the Academic. “They’re rather busy at the moment.”
“Better question: Who would listen when their own preconceptions were challenged, rather than the strange things allegedly believed by others?” said the Cynic.
“Well, let’s at least weigh the charges against the libertarians this time,” said the Capitalist. “What are they, anyway?”
“Libertarians,” said the Stoic gravely, “want to enslave us all.”
“Is it really that bad?” asked the Epicurean.
“Oh definitely,” said the Stoic. “Slavery sucks.”
“No — I mean — does the charge stick?” asked the Epicurean.
“Here’s the problem,” said the Stoic. And he read:
Libertarians – propertarians, anyway – rather notoriously maintain that you really ought to be able to sell yourself into slavery, if you want to. After all, you’re your property. You should be able to dispose of yourself as you see fit. (Some libertarians don’t go so far but many do. Nozick, for example. I think it’s pretty hard to resist this conclusion, in principled fashion, once you’ve bought the strong self-ownership principle.)
Now: suppose we drop, experimentally, just the libertarian ‘self-ownership’ assumption, while keeping the ownership model. Imagine a society in which everyone belongs to their parents, at birth. (Or, if their parents belong to someone, to their parents’ owners.) The libertarian logic of this is clear enough, I trust. (I don’t say all libertarians should be bound by logic to embrace this vision of utopia on the spot, but they ought to recognize libertarianism, minus assumed self-ownership, as a form of the philosophy they advocate, albeit an extreme form.) You didn’t make yourself. You are not the sweat of your brow. Someone else made you. And people are the sort of things that can be owned. So you are a made-by-someone-else thing. And made to be owned. Why shouldn’t you be born owned by whoever went to the trouble (two someones?)
It would be kind of fun to sketch a hyper-propertarian society, organized along these lines. It’s not obvious how such a society would work. Obviously it could work (or fail to) in a lot of different ways. It wouldn’t have to turn out radically differently than what we’ve got now. Most parents love their children, so they would free them – officially at birth, or when they turned 18 or whatever. But it could turn out quite differently, if different social patterns developed. You could have your free children and also your slave children, and you might regard them very differently.
“It’s a sorities problem, after a fashion,” said the Academic. “If you can sell bits of yourself, why can’t you sell it all? Libertarians are totally fine with you selling your labor, your real estate, your personal effects, your hair, your kidneys, your various privileges and capacities. Why not the whole hog?”
“And yet,” said the Stoic, “I’ve read the entire Encyclopedia of Libertarianism, cover to cover, several times, and I am not sure I find any support within it for the proposition that you can sell your entire self. Robert Nozick famously defended all sorts of things that aren’t necessarily parts of libertarianism, including everything from animal rights to some downright strange notions about the true purpose of yoga.”
“What?” they all asked.
“Never mind. No one reads that book anyway,” said the Stoic.
The Academic winced. “But everyone does read Anarchy, State, and Utopia,” he said after a moment, “and that book appears to defend the principle that voluntary slavery could be just fine in a libertarian world.”
“The animal rights bits are in there too,” said the Stoic, “but it’s not like they’re canonical either. Get a bunch of libertarians together, and animal rights is a sure-fire conversation-starter.”
“Do you mean to say that there are tensions, then,” said the Academic, “within libertarianism? Perish the thought!”
“Being unsure about slavery is one hell of a tension,” said the Skeptic.
“It would be a slavery unlike any other,” said the Academic. “The one Nozick imagines would certainly not be hereditary, or racial, and it would only be entered into by voluntary agreement. There would be none but happy slaves.”
“Really?” asked the Skeptic. “Isn’t that what they used to say in the South, too?”
“There are strong prudential reasons against even consensual slavery,” said the Malthusian. “It would be virtually the perfect disguise in which to hide non-consensual slavery. It may well be that this particular sort of freedom — the freedom to enslave oneself — is one that violates the law of equal freedom, because it tends to attack the freedoms of others who don’t want to be slaves. If so, then we’ve found our way out of the dilemma.”
“Also, consensual slavery attacks my own freedom,” said the Stoic. “Because if I decide to be a slave today, I might be happy with the decision. But if I change my mind next year, what am I to do? The master keeps all of his freedom, and he could release me if he wanted, but he might not want to. Meanwhile, my ability to leave the arrangement is nil. Not only that, but I’ve alienated a whole slew of rights commonly described as inalienable — my ability to try to acquire or alienate particular property being first on the list.
“We are no longer living, then, in a society of equal liberties, and that’s a serious red flag, isn’t it? Here I am, profoundly subject to the arbitrary will of another. It’s the very thing libertarianism wants most to abolish. This is why some rights can’t be surrendered, and hyper-propertarians forget it at their own peril.”
“It seems to me that this is a universal problem, though, and not one particular to libertarianism,” said the Academic. “Throughout the entire western legal tradition, there are two principles that stand in tension with one another: honor promises and honor individual autonomy. These principles clash with each other all the time, whatever your ideology is. The result, in practice, is known as contract law. Some contracts are kosher, others aren’t. The boundary changes all the time. Did you expect a sorities problem to have a neat, simple answer? But why is it, then, that the lack of a neat, simple answer — a problem common to all law systems in the West — falls solely on one very recent ideology, and not on western law as a whole?”
“A good question,” said the Skeptic. “But there’s another thing at work here, though, one we’ve neglected all along — the coercive power of the state. Without the state, a slavery contract isn’t a binding obligation. It’s just BDSM for lawyers.”
“Which should by no means be illegal,” said the Capitalist, a little too quickly.
“So one libertarian answer might look like this,” said the Skeptic. “Make your contracts. Whether or not they are enforceable, and how, will be decided by the community, according to norms of individual autonomy that are not necessarily of your own making, and that may give you more freedom than you claim to want. And remember, as you grumble about the libertarian polity, that most other polities have certainly erred in the opposite direction. We already know how that turns out, and we’re not interested.”
“Libertarians,” said the Stoic gravely, “want to enslave us all.”
This made me cackle.
The whole thing is sweet, dude. Well done.Report
An excellent post.Report
Whoa: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/17/business/17goldman.html?hpReport
Isn’t the lack of foreknowledge as to whether a contract is enforceable or not a serious deprivation of liberty and right to contract?
After all, the whole point of libertarianism is to develop mechanisms whereby everybody agrees in advance that the state will NOT have general police powers. So if you want me to buy into this approach, I need to know the precise boundaries of the state’s power. Otherwise, you’re just a bunch of statists luring me and Mr. Galt into bringing our capital into your community, then depriving us of it by invalidating our contracts ex post facto.Report
@Francis,
I am presuming that at bare minimum there would be a system of precedential or common law in place, in which you would have an increasingly clear idea over time about which contracts were likely to be enforced and which were not. I certainly should have been clearer here. I actually had a bit about slavery and the common law in an earlier draft, but I axed it because it was so similar to a comment I’d made just recently.Report
@Jason Kuznicki, I’d love to see a serious digression into a slavery contract/lemon problem argument, myself.Report
@Jason Kuznicki, Common law comes from merrie old England, which famously has an unwritten constitution. If the community gets to vote on which contracts are enforceable and which are not, on a case-by-case basis, you’ll very soon end up in the post-Lochner era in which certain employment contracts are struck down as being inherently abhorrent.
The only way libertarianism actually works is with a strong Constitution limiting the regulatory power of the State (a feature notably absent from every State constitution). Then Mr. Galt can be sure that his contracts with his bakers won’t be invalidated simply because the community thinks he’s making them work too hard.Report
@Francis,
I’ve been giving this one some thought, and one principle that might allow significant freedoms for both workers and employers, while avoiding even voluntary slavery, could be very simply stated: Employment contracts are at-will for both employer and employee. Which is what libertarians of the more sensible strain have always said all along.
But then, we really are reinventing the wheel here.Report
I always enjoy listening in on these committee meetings.Report
The right to be defined only by one’s own personal politics, and not by some vague notion of what is our affiliation, our ideology, our party or our group, is a right that (on the Internet) is desired by all but extended by very few. I daresay I usually fail to extend it to the degree to which I desire it, and so much the worse for me.
Now, from my perspective, (on the Internet) there is no group that comes close to having their views elided with some evil mass, or that has to endure more collective punishment, than the left– the actual left, not establishmentarian liberals. Anyone that has any affiliation with a genuinely socialist, Marxist or international leftist ideology is immediately lumped into the ranks of the forbidden “communism,” and expected to be fairly taken to task for, among other things, the crimes of Stalin, the oppression of civil liberties by Hugo Chavez, poverty in Havana, and how Che t-shirts are, like, totally support for genocide. In our opponents, we see gross generalizations; in ourselves, we see vast complexity.
I would think that the actual left is the side most subject to this kind of generalization and collective punishment, being a leftist and all. But even aside from my own bias, it seems that way.
The only thing to do is for me to be better about not talking about “libertarians” and rather about individual libertarians, and to expect the same of others in their conduct towards me. But that’s really hard; it makes the conduct of democracy much, much harder if we can’t talk in gross terms of competing ideologies.
In the meantime, baby, I’m ultra-gauche, but first I’m all me.Report
@Freddie, the crimes of Stalin, the oppression of civil liberties by Hugo Chavez, poverty in Havana, and how Che t-shirts are, like, totally support for genocide.
I don’t understand how this last part wouldn’t completely undercut the first part.Report
@Jaybird, I’m not sure I follow you– I’m just listing some usual responses to anyone who says that they are a part of the internationalist left, or Marxian or Marxist. “Stalin was bad/Castro is bad/Chavez is bad/Che was bad,” etc.Report
@Freddie, the arguments with which I am most familiar are something to the following:
“Those guys, those leaders, were No True Marxists. At best, they were Bastard Children of Marx and, at worst, they had nothing to do with his ideologies but used his ideologies to dupe the innocent and naive in order to accumulate power for themselves. They shouldn’t be considered under the umbrella of the authentic left at all… anymore than the priests that molest children ought be considered exemplars of Christianity.”
Right?
But then you have to deal with the whole fact that one of these bastard children/power-hungry mongrels is a symbol of “authentic” leftism to the point where his picture is on shirts.
Are the people who wear the shirts supposed to be automatically understood to be callow youths who ought not be taken seriously and, let’s face it, have heads full of mush and they’re probably just trying to freak the normals?Report
@Jaybird,
I have no idea who the true Marxists or leftists are. I wouldn’t even particularly know what such a thing means. And who cares, really?
Are the people who wear the shirts supposed to be automatically understood to be callow youths who ought not be taken seriously and, let’s face it, have heads full of mush and they’re probably just trying to freak the normals?
No, of course not. How could wearing a t-shirt ever say such a thing? Sure, some kinds wear Che shirts without a genuine understanding of who he was, historically or ideologically. I personally have conflicted feelings towards El Che. But I couldn’t sort the people I agree with by t-shirt; only by talking.
I am making exactly the same claim that Jason is making: however much Jason may self-identify under the broad banner of “libertarianism,” that term can never fully or fairly describe his personal views, and the fact that both he and a John Birch type might self-describe by that name, it in no way means he has to have exactly or largely the same views as such a person.
So with me; I have terms of art I use to describe myself, but they aren’t straitjackets that compel me to feel any particular way about any particular thing.Report
@Freddie, you say “Anyone that has any affiliation with a genuinely socialist, Marxist or international leftist ideology” but you also say “I have no idea who the true Marxists or leftists are”.
I’m confused.Report
@Jaybird, you usually are.Report
@Freddie, okay, if you want to play that way, fine.
You understand the problems with the Confederate Flag, do you not? Sure, there are people who claim that it’s not a symbol of racism but merely “Southern Pride”, right?
And you understand how there are people who look at the Confederate Flag and do not see merely Southern Pride but White Supremacy, Antebellum Southern Nostalgia, and Slavery. Right?
You are aware of that, correct?
Can you be so friggin’ obtuse that you cannot see how people respond identically to “Marxism” and have *EXACTLY* as much justification as those who see the Confederate Flag and see White Supremacy?
Or is that so completely different that it’s not worth discussing with someone who might see it as a comparison worth making?Report
@Freddie, But that doesn’t relieve Jason of the task of defining what libertarianism is; the more powerful a doctrine he holds it to be the more compulsory and the higher standard he needs to meet in so doing. I count myself as a liberal only because from available terms of which I am aware, I think it is the one that most fairly describes me. If I am wrong, it is really no skin off my nose; the term does very little work for me personally (though I have ideas about what I think it means quasi-universally). Regardless, I believe what I believe (and, to be honest, it doesn’t stay the same, and I don’t think ultimately what I believe probably fits within any one descriptor very well). The more normatively compelling and instrumentally valuable Jason considers libertarianism to be, and the more tightly he identifies himself with it — i.e. the more work it does for him — the more precisely he is required to define it (or otherwise state just what the views are he finds so compelling that he thinks we should all hold them, if so he thinks) and define it (them) correctly.Report
@Michael Drew, That “Confederate Flag” that Jaybird’s referring to is the Confederate battleflag that was used in Lee’s Army of NOrthern Virginia and only occasionally in the West (Army of Tennessee).
Now, as a border man inclined toward minimalist gummint, I do get a little flutter when I see it but it isn’t based on racism rather on the courage of men who out fought, out marched their foes on slim rations, limited ammunition, and threadbare clothing; men who only had to cry out “yip, yip, yip” on regiment front as they came crashing through the woods to scatter Yankees before them!
Yeah, I get a little chill.Report
@Freddie,
Terms like “libertarian” or “leftist” or “progressive” ultimately point at large unwieldy groups of people.
I believe that I have within my mind a workable idea of the ground rules for a good society. Whether everyone who has the sound “libertarian” articulated in their direction shares my idea or not, it is the sound that will always be made in my direction, too, owing to institutional affiliations, broad policy goals, and a common intellectual background (it usually begins with Ayn Rand, usw…).
Rather than argue about the accuracy of one single term — a dispute that will be settled not by me but by popular consensus — I’m going to simply articulate what I believe.
Hence in my above post, “one libertarian answer might look like this.” I deliberated a lot over those two words, believe it or not.Report
@Freddie,
Yes, the left has a hard time of it in the U.S. — practically an oppressed group. Free the lefties! Free the lefties!Report
@Mike Farmer, thanks for proving my point, as usual.Report
@Freddie, Enough about you. Let’s talk about me.Report
@Cascadian, sounds good!Report
@Freddie,
I’m starting a grass-roots movement to help, Freddie, it’s called Green Tea Party movement. We’re calling for Marxist-awareness, equality for all (except the conservative asshoes), 50% more leisure time and a living wage of 65,765.27 a year. We’re starting our cross-country (or across the street, depending on how much trouble it all is) protest in Greenwich Village. We’ll be smokin’! Power to the peeps!Report
interesting. in the quoted selection:
“Now: suppose we drop, experimentally, just the libertarian ‘self-ownership’ assumption”
Is this not similar to saying:
“Now: suppose we drop, experimentally, just the capitalist ‘free-market’ concept. without free markets capitalism is not capitalism.
it seems to me that without the “self-ownership’ assumption” libertarianism is not libertarianism.
i understand that i am on the verge of falling into the “No true Scotsman” fallacy, but when you take this assumption away, arguably the core principle of libertarianism, you have moved from the realm of libertarianism.
does this not negate the entire argument?Report
A powerful response, Jason. This I think winds up largely obviating the post I’ve been working on, which is probably for the best because my thoughts are kind of all over the map.
However, I wonder if Holbo’s feudalism point – at least with respect to a variety of libertarianism that holds property rights as the be-all and end-all – has more merit than libertarians would like to admit. I am by no means an expert on the Dark Ages, but I’ve been doing a good amount of reading on the subject of late, particularly this behemoth:
http://www.amazon.com/Inheritance-Rome-Illuminating-400-1000-Penguin/dp/0670020982/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271431296&sr=1-1
What has struck me in my reading and was reinforced by Holbo’s argument is that the Western European societies in the early Dark Ages wind up having quite a bit in common with a property-rights based hypothetical libertarianism. You have weak central governments, a court system particularly geared towards protecting property rights, sporadic (at best) taxation; and more or less unenforceable national legislation.
This isn’t necessarily the end of the world for property-rights based libertarianism – Wickham argues quite persuasively IMHO that there was in fact a remarkable amount of continuity after the collapse of the Western Roman Empire (which he argues was made inevitable when the Romans lost control of their tax infrastructure). And a not-insignificant portion of the peasantry were what we would call “free peasants.”
The major differences, it would seem, were that trade was drastically reduced due to political fragmentation and that society became more militaristic. But to the extent that society became more militaristic, we’re talking about de facto militia rather than massive armies of professional soldiers. Violence was certainly frequent, but it was also on a very small scale.
It’s just that such a society has little to do with any conception of classical liberalism. I think – and Holbo appears to concede – that for a lot of libertarians, the divide with liberals is over means rather than ends. However, for the sort of right-libertarianism based in an elevation of property rights that has largely dominated popular perceptions of libertarians, the difference with modern liberals is very much a difference of ends.Report
@Francis,
I agree. And I have the feeling that you and I are sort of walking through Hayek’s Law, Legislation, and Liberty, with me cheering him on, and with you dreading every step. But either way, it’s familiar enough territory.
@Matt Kuznicki,
The problem is that many libertarians really have been drawn into a very strong conception of the freedom of contract, and at some point, it really does become a problem.
@Mark Thompson,
The Inheritance of Rome was a fantastic book, and I had many of the same thoughts. I read it immediately after James C. Scott’s The Art of Not Being Governed, and the two make a great pair for discussing these issues. I think one problem here is that a certain kind of libertarian prefers to be identified by what he’s against — state violence. My preference is to be identified by what I’m for — individual self-expression, commerce, scientific progress, and toleration among peoples. Small-scale violence hurts these things too. The problem is not the state, but power.Report
@Jason Kuznicki, “The problem is not the state, but power.”
I’m making this my new motto.Report
@Mark Thompson, But, the ground of the state is “power.”Report
@Bob Cheeks, Of course it is. But power is the ground of many other things too.
The state is a container built from power, to constrain power. Perhaps a paradox, definitely a kludge.Report
@Jason Kuznicki, And, what “state,” that “constrains power,” would you be referring to?Report
@Bob Cheeks, Are you becoming an anarchist, Bob?Report
@Mark Thompson, it’s wacky, ain’t it?
Once you pop, you can’t stop.Report
@Jason Kuznicki, It’s certainly possible to draft a constitution that limits the power of a state. Just add economic freedom to the Bill of Rights. (ok, it likely would be a lot harder than that, but that’s not my point.)
My point is this: how many people do you think would vote for a state constitution if they felt that the constitution would ban a law empowering the state to inspect slaughterhouses?
Is it possible to give a state enough regulatory power that the constitution would get enough votes to pass, while at the same time permanently constraining the power of the state in a way that satisfies libertarian concerns? My personal take is that there’s no overlap in that Venn diagram.Report
I have a question I would like one of the libertarians to answer. I live just outside Baton Rouge and a few years ago the local paper published a letter to the editor from a farmer in Ohio complaining about the amount of paperwork the government made him do to verify the amount of chemicals he was using on his farm. On the same day and in the same paper there was a long article by a local professor whose last paper stated that there was considerable evidence that the dead zone in the gulf was expanding and probably was caused by chemical fertilizers flowing downstream from northern farmers.
So, here is my question: How do the people of Louisiana stop the farmers in Ohio from killing all the shrimp in the Gulf?Report
@dexter45, Riparian rights – fun! The solution you tend to hear all the time seems to be private ownership of waterways. Pollution becomes a violation of the owner’s property rights. Presumably the owner of the river section winds up being in a good position to act as an intermediary between the shrimp boats and the Ohio farmers since he is in a reasonable position to trace the flow of chemicals into the river and thus be able to negotiate with the farmers to either pay them not to pollute or to receive payment from them for the right to pollute, while also being in a position to negotiate with the shrimp boats over the minimal quality of water that may leave his section of the stream.
I am personally skeptical of this, though. It seems like it would only work if there were monopoly ownership of any given waterway, which would make it functionally no different from government ownership, IMHO. Even if you only sold sections of the waterway, it seems like ultimately it would have to result in a monopoly by whoever had the rights to the point furthest upstream. But I haven’t given riparian rights much thought, so I’m willing to be persuaded.Report
@Mark Thompson, My meager 2 cents. I have -never- heard any proposal for assigning ownership of a living body of water (or a portion of one) that doesn’t make me want to grab my wallet and run crying for a Marxist utopia. Now that could be observer bias but I am a very pro-market neoliberal and I have entertained a lot of suggestions on the subject (the tragedy of the commons is my personal pet issue to throw at passionate libertarians).Report
@North, caviar production? Fresh-water pearl production?Report
@Jaybird,
The former and the latter merely use already existing commons or in the case of aquaculture only take up small pieces of bodies of water and typically have serious pollution externalities that are merrily dumped into the commons around them.Report
@dexter45,
I don’t know the answer to this particular problem — there are complex problems which require a lof of thought, but it’s good to remember that it’s the overarcing principles involved when working out problems that are important — and it pays to keep in mind that liberarians are concerned with rights violations — it’s not a simple position of the Ohio farmers being free to do what they want to do — they shouldn’t be allowed to violate the rights of others. Then solutions develope with these principles in mind, hoping a fair settlement can reached and creative solutions applied. I don’t know of any libertarians who don’t believe in lawful settlement of disputes when rights violations are concerned. Rather than knee-jerk government regulations, a free society requires we work out our probems guided by principles, reason and fairness.Report