Porn, again
A quick follow-up to the surprisingly popular mini-post on porn. Granted, apocalyptic predictions of pornographically-inspired sexual violence aren’t very accurate (hat tip to commenter Plinko for the second link), and I also think that society has done a decent job of weathering the sexual revolution and its aftermath. But to my mind, the most compelling case against pornography is grounded in personal experience rather than social doom-saying, mainly because the over-consumption of anything (from porn to calories) is bad for you. Here’s Naomi Wolf:
After all, pornography works in the most basic of ways on the brain: It is Pavlovian. An orgasm is one of the biggest reinforcers imaginable. If you associate orgasm with your wife, a kiss, a scent, a body, that is what, over time, will turn you on; if you open your focus to an endless stream of ever-more-transgressive images of cybersex slaves, that is what it will take to turn you on. The ubiquity of sexual images does not free eros but dilutes it.
Other cultures know this. I am not advocating a return to the days of hiding female sexuality, but I am noting that the power and charge of sex are maintained when there is some sacredness to it, when it is not on tap all the time. In many more traditional cultures, it is not prudery that leads them to discourage men from looking at pornography. It is, rather, because these cultures understand male sexuality and what it takes to keep men and women turned on to one another over time—to help men, in particular, to, as the Old Testament puts it, “rejoice with the wife of thy youth; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times.” These cultures urge men not to look at porn because they know that a powerful erotic bond between parents is a key element of a strong family.
Does this mean I favor outright censorship? No, although less draconian measures that restrict local access to pornography seem pretty reasonable. I also think that occasionally indulging in a dirty magazine or whatever is totally consistent with a healthy libido. But the rate of pornographic consumption described in, say, this article is something else entirely. And I think there should be room for developing (or restoring) shared norms that discourage the over-consumption of pornography in lieu of outright censorship.
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A quick post-script: This entire discussion has been totally dominated by male commenters. If any female readers are interested in weighing in on Wolf’s article or the larger debate, I’d love to hear them out.
Excellent point, but do you think perhaps the ‘local restrictions’ are misguided? A visit to a theatre or club is by definition expensive. If nothing else you gotta get out of bed, get dressed, drive, walk or ride there and pay whatever it costs. Maybe visiting the strip club isn’t a sacred experience but it at least requires some action, some decision making and some responsibility. As a result there is at least a little bit of artistry given to the field.
The internet, though, can produce endless porn for free and you never even have to get out of bed.
I agree with your ‘personal experience’ argument but I’d also divert the problem to the ‘personal responsibility’ bucket. The fact is modern society allows us to overconsume here. Modern society’s wealth allows us to overconsume in lots of ways. Just as our forefathers had to learn to hunt and deal with the elements, we have to learn to deal with a world of plenty in a responsible way. Some of us will fail and some of us will need extra help but to me that seems to be a fact of life.Report
I’m all for local control. But, to some extent we already have that. If these premises were true, the Bible Belt would be reaping the rewards of a more conservative society.Report
Hey, what happened to being on the Internet means no one knows we’re dogs?
I have an issue with Naomi Wolf’s strong statements about what societies know about porn. A lot of societies think they know a lot about what’s good for people, I’m a lot less certain than they are. That passage reeks of the same kind of paternalism that we usually decry as nanny-statism.
I think years of reading Dan Savage (despite the obvious biases involved) has led me to reject any notions that there is some kind of sexual purity concept which we’re trying to defend against the insidious influence of modern society, or worse, the evil that lurks in the hearts of men. There are all sorts out there, and in far greater numbers than we’re willing to confront in polite society. Continuing to drive people’s feelings and desires underground out of a utopian view of human sexuality seems to me to be far more dangerous than the actual harm of pornography consumption.Report
Do you believe that this is a ‘compelling case against’ calories?
Most men have massive libidos. That libido can either be concentrated on one’s societally and religiously endorsed sexual partner, it can be distracted by pornography, or it can be repressed. Option 1 is great for those who have the option and an amenable partner with a comparable appetite. Option 3 is terrible. The problem with the generally conservative approach to pornography & sexuality is that it targets Option 1 with Option 3 as the fallback.
Ideally, you’d target Option 1 with Option 2 as the fallback, but Option 2 can often take over, which seems to be the crux of Wolf’s point. But I think the available body of evidence shows that it’s still a superior model to the conservative model. Cultures with repressive sexual mores are highly correlated with cultures that murder women for being seen unattended with a man.Report
Talking to everyone here at the League has helped my focus my thoughts on this issue a bit. What I see as the immediate problem is not so much pornography’s availability as its wide and, to my mind, totally unjustified prestige. We have the mass consumption of images that depict women (mostly) in vile and degrading ways, and the response of many is to make documentaries praising him a modern-day Defender of the Faith. Maybe he shouldn’t be put in jail, but he damn sure shouldn’t be up on that pedestal.Report
@Matthew Schmitz, *praising Larry FlyntReport
Whatever my skepticism of the side post, this one I am quite on board with. Pornography has the ability to warp the sexual mindset and we should be aware of that and (not through legislation, necessarily) be on guard against it.
I particularly agree with Matthew’s point about the exaltation of pornography. I believe pornography is protected under the first amendment and even if it weren’t I would support its legality as a matter of personal freedom. But the exaltation of pornography as being an emblem of freedom is misguided. In a way, it’s sort of like those that celebrate transgressive art for its very transgressiveness. The Turner Diaries is transgressive. That assigns it no moral value whatsoever.Report
One important issue missing from this discussion is the potential for earning money. I spend a lot of time in a third world country, and know several women who make a very good living as internet entertainers. For many women in this country, the only alternative is real sex, which not only runs the risk of STDs, pregnancy and physical abuse, but which doesn’t pay nearly as well as cybersex. Of course it would be nice if they could work in offices or factories and make a Western-sized income, but given that they can’t, I think this opportunity is a godsend for them.Report
Do you really think Larry Flynt is a heroic figure in popular culture? Really?Report
@Sam M, I think he said there are documentaries that portray him as such. I don’t know about that, but there was a movie that, to my mind, tried to show him as a free speech martyr.Report
@Rufus F.,
What Rufus said!Report
I’m always surprised at how comfortable people my age are with overconsumption of media in general. I’ve had roommates who watched, at the very least, eight hours of television a day, while surfing the net, which they also did at work. But whenever I talk about this with people, they just seem to think that this is what everyone does now.Report
You lured me in.
An interesting theory:
http://scienceblogs.com/cortex/2009/08/porn_and_mirror_neurons.php
It would explain the desire for a visibly/vocally appreciative partner.
Sexual desire is a complicated phenomenon. Many factors go into it, a lot of them subconscious. I think it’s important to note that as much as I’ve witnessed the desire for more extreme pornography expand with increased exposure, I’ve also noticed a subsequent contraction of that desire (as the exposure continues further) for many people I’ve talked to – a reversion back towards simple sexual scenarios (foreplay), “real” or “natural” looking girls, etc. Sure, you may get desensitized to certain types of porn, but that doesn’t mean reaching a stage where you’re dipping into kiddie or slasher porn because you’ve exhausted all other alleys. There’s enough variety (and this is the key to most desensitization issues) in the porn industry, and you can revisit old preferences. Maybe it’s more of a merry-go-round instead of a slippery slope.
I’m tempted to say that this you-can’t-have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too attitude is more: your cake (sex life) sucks, but if you (or your partner) are never exposed to any others, you can live in blissful ignorance of its relative shortcomings. Ideally, watching porn should not compete with your sexual satisfaction with your spouse, or create feelings of jealousy or insecurity. If you’re both game, enjoy it together.
But realistically, that doesn’t happen often. The issues (of jealousy/insecurity/you name it) that arise from watching porn are most likely present anyway, and if you’re not the type of couple that can talk about that stuff honestly, or figure out how to resolve it, maybe your best bet is to refrain so you can maintain your sex life. Pessimistic, but practical.
Now, as for just physically, I can see how repeatedly training yourself to get off in 30 seconds could be harmful. Probably not a good idea.
Since there’s been some references to the rape fantasy, below is worth a read. Earlier comments regarding correlation versus causation are pretty valid.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/humannature/archive/2009/01/26/rape-fantasies-and-female-arousal.aspxReport
And, you know, one thing that actually was surprising to me was that I had another mini-post below that, which I thought had it all: anime, censorship, child pornography, political hypocrisy and Japan. Not one friggin comment!Report
I named my (rarely-updated, frankly halfassed) blog after a song that was on a related subject, from an album full of them. Thus:
Is it wrong to think I’m a traditional man?
I hope I’d be up for annexation of that
Oh part of me can deal with these open relations
But a concept to do is like yes to a goal
It’s unclear how it happens
Maybe we’ll act how we planned it
We sure talked a lot, and soon it came into focus
(Focus, focus, I tried to focus! OH!)
There’s no time for fighting, any sex is personal
Keep your head above the meaning and devotion doesn’t swell
Any sexual encounter adds an awful twisting touch
It’s like scamming in the 90s but getting used to this is hard
Report
I know women who get off on anime tentacle-monster rape porn, but are otherwise completely normal and have actually healthier romantic relationships than many other people I know. I also know some women who work in “the industry”, and are indeed pretty dysfunctional.
But I worry more about misguided intellectuals who can’t tell the difference than I do about the impact of the latter’s career choices on random strangers, I have to say. That may just be a matter of priorities, but I do think this entire debate both conflates different issues and misses the forest for the trees.
Personally, I see “pornification” as just the inevitable latest step in capitalism’s totalizing, all-consuming commodification of any and all human desires, and abused sex “actresses” as scarcely different from underpaid retail workers in the scheme of things.Report
@JosephFM,
I think you’re on to something.Report
@Matthew Schmitz,
Most porn these days is amateur. If anything, the porn industry was more commercial in the 1970s, and less so now. With all the competition working for free, it’s really hard to make a profit. If anything, Internet porn has DE-commodified sex. Now exhibitionists connect with voyeurs for free, and the great majority of them are very happy. It’s hard to see someone as exploited by capitalism when there isn’t even an employer.Report
@Jason Kuznicki,
That is a very good point, and also fits with my (admittedly limited) experience – I realize now that I’d actually started talking about the entire spectrum of sex work, which doesn’t always apply to porn thanks to the later being mediated (which is also the source of its protections – why the same sex transaction that is considered speech when filmed suddenly loses protections when not).
The only counterargument I can think of is more abstract – that even amateur porn exchanges are transactionalized, and that doing so trivializes them. But I’m not sure I actually believe that, personal regrets aside.
(Well that and the whole “digital pictures live forever” thing – there’s a burgeoning genre of “revenge” sites that encourage sharing of personal-use nudie pictures and “sexts” without the subjects’ permission.)Report
Also, one last thought – anyone else remember when Tony Comstock used to comment here?Report
@JosephFM, Haha yes. I remember the first time I clicked on his site, totally oblivious to what he did for a living. Nice Faint reference, by the way.Report
@Will,
I actually asked because I’d be curious for his input – as far as I understood it, his and his wife’s project is to make movies about people having sex that are romantic and interesting rather than mechanical like porn or pretentious like, say, Nine Songs,and I think that’s a really good thing.Report
In discussions of pornography, you often hear about how porn degrades women. It always struck me how no one ever talks about how gay porn degrades men who are (anal) bottoms.Report
@Aaron,
The portion of the population that enjoys spending any time at all thinking about male homosexual porn in any capacity is limited.Report
Honestly, I think the discourse around porn is pretty much like the historical discourse around booze. And, like booze, if society had a healthier relationship with porn, there would be fewer individual problems with it. As a cheerful occasional drinker who appreciates the benefits of alcohol but also has plenty of alcoholics in her family tree, I am hugely conflicted as to what “should” be done. But God knows I don’t want no one to ever have a beer just because my grandaddies couldn’t hold their liquor. (I shall refrain from the temptations of a tangent about the superiority of microbrews over mass-produced hooshwa.)Report
@Maribou, and see, already I’m running into problems because I don’t want to seem to trivialize alcoholism if someone reading this didn’t parse the connotations of “hold their liquor” the same way I did. It’s a thorny puzzle, alright.Report
On my sloop in St. Croix, so late to this. But in a nutshell, this as well as nearly all other discusions of pornography are hamstrung by a profound ignorance that people have of the legal and economic conditions under which sexually explicit entertainment is made (I generally avoid the work “pornography” because it has no legal definition, or even a commonly accepted colloquial definition.)
I’m not sure yet if “The Intent to Arouse: A Concise History of Sex. Shame, and the Moving Image” is going to be a book, a PhD dissertation or a lecture tour or all three; but it’s a good place to start to try and grasp the forces at work.
RE: Mores
I find myself agreeing with James Poulos, but with more optimism about human nature than he has.Report
@Tony Comstock,
You mean, “one or more horny, good-looking individuals, around 20-30 years of age, in a basement, with a webcam”? Because that’s how most porn gets made these days.
I’m shocked and appalled. I had no idea.Report
@Tony Comstock, It seems like ignorance of your understanding of these conditions is pretty much guaranteed when you decline to describe what that understanding is. Are we supposed to know what you’re trying to say here?Report
@Tony Comstock,
Very good point as I expected. My understanding, as far as I have one (and I am on this point much more ignorant than you, obviously, but I imagine less so that anyone else commenting here) is that there is pretty wide variance in that. Jason is being too glib.
That said I disagree vehemently with Poulos about – well almost everything he writes that I don’t find totally impenetrable, including culture.Report
@Tony Comstock, Could you provide a link to a Poulos piece that exemplifies what you’re referring to?Report
Hey look! I’m Jason and I can make glib comments on blogs!
Jason, why do you suppose the erotic image has undergone such a profound devolvement in the past 35 years?Report
@Tony Comstock,
The Internet. Some questions really do have simple answers.Report
@michael theintenttoarouse.com
@joseph jason confuses the pointing finger with the moon
@cascadian sadly no. mostly from my and james’ ex par te. short version: generally speaking laws constrain the behavior of criminals (thieves, bankers, pornographers, corporations) Mores constrain the behavior of citizens.
@jason I don’t know if you are painfully simple-minded, but your repost is. the deevolution of s commercial photographic entertainment containing sexually explicit imagery began well before the rise of the internet, and the internet has not had a devolving effect on the commercial photographic/cinematic exploration of other subject matter.Report
@Tony Comstock, It’s a bit hard to address this question without definitions. What exactly is the change? Less hair on the actresses? I believe the internet has had a great impact or at least facillitated a change. There are certain forms of cinema where authenticity count more than cgi. Porn is one. Extreme or gen-x sports are another. I wouldn’t say that the internet is the cause of more extreme sex or sport but it does allow for a home production that can rival a slick package.Report
glad you mentioned xtreme sports. the advent of in home HD gave rise to a shot on film approach to xtreme sport filmmaking. there is no porn collolary because the porn business model breaks when you try to raise your game. (converselly, we’ve been able to shoot on film because we don’t use a porn business model to produce and distribute our films.)Report
Just pointing out that two (or three? I can’t tell on the internet) chicks actually commented on this thread but only the guys got responses.
That may have something to do with the dearth of chicks commenting.
Ladies, I’d just like to point out that I think that your comments were fascinating.Report
@Jaybird:
Uh, thanks, honey.Report
I didn’t really notice anyone engaging. Seems more like everyone throwing their two cents into the pot. I’d wager that more marriages are damaged by limited or habitual sex than too much great sex.
I particularly liked Rebecca’s post, but dang, those are murky waters and you had better have a great relationship before going there or have a greater EQ than most guys have. Ultimately, it’s going to come down to the preferences and compatibility of the four people involved. If one thinks sex is about puppy dog eyes and cuddling and the others strongly prefer acrobatics and a bit of the ol’ spank and tickle there’s going to be trouble and it would be best to call the whole thing off. And for those that have an exhibitionist streak, closet yourselves before you embarrass your parents and come off as a damaged individual.Report