Some Socially Conservative thoughts from a Liberaltarian
I like to think of myself as a liberaltarian. I think I would qualify for the label because I’m big on the Rawls-Hayek fusion thing (Or more accurately, the Rawls + public choice + economic consensus). Yet, I have certain affinities with a social/cultural conservatism. Here are some of my social conservative thoughts. (No, not an oxymoron)
1. Romantic Love destroyed the institution of marriage.
Prior to the valorisation of Romance, marriage served many purposes, for property, for the production and rearing of children, for political alliances, to satisfy their elders, etc etc. What was distinctive about marriage was that sexual relations on the part of the woman outside of marriage was absolutely taboo no matter the reason. The notion of irreconcilable differences being a valid reason to dissolve a marriage didn’t really exist either. There was nothing wrong with a marriage in which the husband and wife found that they had nothing in common. The institution of marriage as it existed before the valorisation of romance was therefore considered to be absolute. The only possible reason for separation was a lack of children (or male heirs) (Henry VIII) (or cuckoldry) and even then such would have been scandalous. If marriage is primarily an institution through which you transfer property to offspring, then of course a lack of such offspring would obviate the need for such an institution. (Note, this is also why social sanction is important to marriage. Property is a social kind of thing. The whole point of a marriage is/was to tell everyone else in the village that this person is going to become my wife and that my property by default is going to go to the offspring of this union when I die etc etc. )
Romantic love changed all of that. Once the notion of Romantic love became one of the ideals of relationships, then striving after this ideal therefore become a virtue. It therefore became a virtue to break the covenant of marriage if said marriage had become stale and a new dashing prince charming came along. It became a virtue for a don juan to approach another man’s wife with the aim of destroying her married life if the paramour to be was in love. There is therefore supposed to be something heroic about Mellors and Lady Chatterly’s affair: It is not merely heroic to strive against social rules that you may feel stifle you. It is heroic and virtuous if the goal is worthy. The crippled impotent husband, according to Lawrence, is the villain of the piece for refusing to dissolve the marriage and make way for Constance and Mellors.
Romantic love de-stigmatised pre-marital sex. Even if Romeo and Juliet had boinked a bit on the sly, then this was just an expression of romantic love for each other. The whole bloody aim of the story is to get us to root for the couple. That is why it is tragic when they both die. We are kept in suspense till the very end wondering how they will overcome their families’ objections. Romantic love also destroyed the family. Romeo and Juliet disobeyed their parents and failed to accord them due respect.
The valorisation of romance of course resulted in the sexual revolution and the de-stigmatisation of divorce. The whole point of the sexual revolution was to love as thou wilt without any social restrictions. However, without the valorisation of romance, the 60s would not have been the same. With the high rate of divorce, cohabitation, pre-marital and extra marital sex in modern western society, it is hard to say that the institution of marriage is not in trouble.
Of course, I’m not recommending any policy position here. I don’t think the fate of the institution of marriage is any business of the state. That’s why I’m still a libertarian. The above is just a bit of doom and gloom and a bit of musing about the decadence of western civ. Every socially conservative complaint about liberal attacks on the institution of marriage can be traced to the original sin of making romantic love the primary basis of the marriage covenant.
2. Abortion is one of those things which the state should take action to prevent (or at least the case is not so easily dismissed)
Let’s get a few things straight, just because something is immoral doesn’t mean that it should be prohibited by the state. Similarly, just because something is morally permissible doesn’t mean it should be permitted by the state. When it comes to questions of abortion policy, there are roughly 4 (or 3 depending on whether you think I’m repeating myself) considerations.
- What should people legally owe each other?
- What should people legally owe minors?
- From the viewpoint of a liberal state (i.e. one that does not endorse any particular comprehensive conception of the good), do embryos and foetuses count as the kinds of entities to which legal duties may be properly owed?
- Do some or any of the acts that we call “abortion” violate the above legal duties?
Let’s answer these in order.
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What should people legally owe each other?
People should be legally obligated to respect each other’s rights (to property, person, religion etc) as well as to pay taxes (not too large an amount) to maintain essential state functions like defence, security, other kinds of public goods and even a small social safety net if necessary. (This is pretty standard stuff for political philosophy in the liberal tradition)
- What should people legally owe minors?
This gets a bit more complicated. Political theorists rarely touch on the issue of children and the disabled. Political theory often concerns itself with how to deal with those who are equals (roughly speaking). i.e. people who are fully responsible for their actions. Yet, we often don’t hold children responsible for their actions. Yet, some of their rights are safeguarded, and yet others are permissibly abridged. Consider, taking your kid to a place where he doesn’t want to go (i.e. the dentist) is acceptable where doing the same to an adult would violate his rights. Similar with making your children eat their vegetables. Instead of systematically deriving what we owe children from first principles, I will just say that the principle that seems to unite our considered judgements about what we owe children is that they are to reach their majority as intact autonomous beings. That’s why we don’t allow freedom of contract to minors because we don’t want them to arrive at their majority already burdened by prior special commitments. This is also why we don’t allow minors freedom of religion if such freedom threatens their continued survival. That’s why a 21 year old can legitimately refuse a blood transfusion in a way that a 12 year old cannot. But because children aren’t able to take care of themselves, we also owe them shelter, food, education etc at the very least until they reach their majorities so that once they are adults, they as autonomous beings can choose to live their lives the way they want (If we have a cradle to grave welfare state it may be that we owe people all this stuff even beyond their majority).The legal notion of parenthood is therefore in place to create a division of labour wrt how a society raises its young. That’s why it is the responsibility of legal parents and guardians to provide these things. All of this is rather anodyne from a liberal perspective. Of course, we should note that the duty is not absolute come hell or high water. Rather, the duties are quite legitimately sensitive to the potential burdens. You are not legally required (generally shouldn’t be) to significantly risk life or bodily injury for the survival of the minor whom one is responsible for. Although at least for now, I don’t have a way to go about drawing a line as to how much risk we can legally obligate someone to bear. What I will put forward is that we owe more to our own children than we owe to our fellow citizens. - From the viewpoint of a liberal state, do embryos and foetuses count as the kinds of entities to which legal duties may be properly owed?
I will try to approach this from a generally Rawlsian perspective. So let’s imagine ourselves as beyond a veil of ignorance. We do not know who we are going to turn out to be. We are faced with the task of choosing the principles of justice. These principles will say what kind of fundamental social institutions would be the most just. Part of this involves determining what kinds of rights and liberties we ought to have. I will also take for granted (even though I have argued here before) that we will use maximin as a decision criterion. i.e. we choose the principles which, if adhered to provides the best prospects to the worst off. (I propose that we accept this as a rough approximation even if we think that it may be implausible under circumstances where large benefits are foregone by the better off in exchange for minute increases in prospects of the worst off. We can just suppose that the approximation doesn’t work in such circumstances).How do we go about comparing whether a person is better or worse off? Instead of taking a look at any particular time slice, we look over an entire lifetime. Not only that, we don’t just look over the lifetime, but we look at what a person can legitimately expect over a lifetime if he were reasonable and rational. (i.e. if he adhered to the principles of justice and observing the relevant constraints, took the best available means to his ends). Now, given that it is some version of our lifetime prospects that are important, then an important question to ask is how parties in the original position should view when life starts. It is easy to see why we cannot say that this has nothing to do with justice. If we supposed that life started at conception, then parties in the original position would have to take seriously the possibility that they could end up as an aborted foetus. However, if life started at birth, then any unborn just do not get counted as the kinds of things which they may end up as. The set of possible outcomes thus depends on how we define the parameters for said outcome. So, how do we solve this problem? We can neither ignore it nor bypass it.I will list out 5 possible starting points: conception, foetal neural development, viability, birth and early infancy. Given the way I have set up the problem, the question is not about when one has sufficient psychological resources to be counted as a person. Rather, the question is what the starting point of the life of an entity which will over time develop to be a person is. Obviously, by early infancy, the entity in question has already been alive for some time. The difference between birth and viability is basically about positioning, not about its distinctness as a separate entity. The mere fact that something happens to be in one of your orifices doesn’t mean that it is a part of you. Before viability, the issue is just about a matter of dependency. The mere fact that one entity is dependent on another does not mean that it is a part of that other. (Although it is possible to argue that until viability, the entity is exceedingly ephemeral in such a manner that its existence as a 4-dimensional being cannot be ascertained with any definiteness) Nevertheless, we can narrow down a range of starting points between fertilisation and viability. There is still one more question to answer: whether the living thing in question will in fact over time develop into a person. This is the place where I think ephemerality matters. One complicating factor is that if aborted the living thing will not become a person. i.e. even if life begins at conception, any aborted foetus will in virtue of being aborted not develop into a person. The problem with such a line of argument is that it argues too much. The question we face is whether people in the original position can count things that happen to pre-adults as harms even such things prevent the pre-adults from ever becoming adults. Whatever answer we come up with, it will be the same whether the pre-adult is a viable foetus or a 3 year old child. This is because as discussed above, there is not principled reason to stop at birth when discussing the beginning of the life of the entity in question. - How does all of this apply to abortion?What we do is look at the central cases where a mother to be may want to abort her child. I will for now ignore cases where we are getting rid of the defective before they are born (I leave that to Mr Van Dyke who has done a very good job of it). So, in the range of cases in front of us, we will see some cases where the mother’s life is in imminent danger from pregnancy and others where the risk of complications, while non-zero, is sufficiently small as to be negligible (Dr Saunders can correct me if I am wrong). In the latter, the most that expectant mothers may face is some back pain, bloating, nausea, discomfort etc. Perhaps most of this is in the latter stages of pregnancy where the foetus is already viable. Another issue is about methodology. Is abortion more like killing or letting die. Whether there is in fact any moral difference between the two, the state (at the minimum as a matter of practicality) does make the distinction. Killing requires a larger burden than letting die. However, since the pregnant woman would also tend to be the lea parent of the foetus (by default), she faces a higher burden when letting that foetus die than she does of some random child. But, all these are rather intuitive observations. And intuitions about whether the burden on pregnant women is sufficient to justify killing or letting die one’s own unborn child can differ (See Judith Jarvis Thompson on Abortion for someone whose intuitions about this differ from mine) Instead, we go back to behind the veil of ignorance and ask ourselves. If we don’t know whether we are going to be a woman with an unwanted pregnancy or the child she was pregnant with, would we suppose that there was a right to an abortion? Hint: the parties in the original position use a maximin heuristic. The fate of the pregnant woman, as horrible as it may be if abortion were criminalised most cases (with exceptions made for the woman’s health etc), is still far less horrible than the fate the foetus that would have been aborted. The freedom to abort is therefore a freedom of the slightly less badly off to dominate the worst off.
Of course in the original position, you are also going to see that everyone would be better off if the expectant mother had the resources to raise the child or send it for adoption depending on her preference and would not be forced into either option. Other things that might seem useful is to allow pregnant teens to continue their education etc etc. (I may be socially conservative on this one but I’m not a monster. Of course she should have a safety net. But is should be carefully set up in order to avoid perverse incentives) None of this is to suggest that abortion is in fact morally wrong (although it might be) All my argument shows is that laws permitting abortion using particular methods and/or in certain kinds of situations (which perhaps occur fairly often) are unjust. It could sometimes be unjust to permit behaviour which is morally justified.
Note: I thought about adding something about privilege, but my thoughts on that are too confused for even myself to understand. So, instead of having 3 nice grenades to lob, I’ve got 2. Well, Happy New Year and if nothing here is worth commenting upon, consider this an open thread.
[Update]:
Yes, the double standard was horrible in the bad old days. Yes, women were treated as property. (What kind of monster do you think I am?) My point is this: If you think the longevity of the union is important, then the key point of weakness in the institution is romantic love. Change everything else: no of partners, sex and gender of partners, age of partners (mo more child marrriages), make it more egalitarian and the institution would still not have weakened and you would still have a more laudable institution today than you currently have.
Were you intending to argue that the demise of marriage is bad?
As one of those freewheeling radical social liberals, I don’t see the crumbling of the institution of marriage as a bad thing, particularly since — and it’s curious of you to ignore this — “traditional marriage” has also been a “traditional” way of controlling women and denying them agency. When you discuss the purpose of marriage as “transferring property to offspring,” it ought to be “transferring property to male offspring.”
You mention that dissolution of marriage was unheard of, excepting reasons of infertility or cuckolding; this notably does not include dissolution of marriage due to violent abuse. Until the mid 1800s or so, wife beating was considered a reasonable exercise of authority by a husband.
And, of course, there’s that nice little aside that goes unexplored — women were not to have sexual relations outside of marriage. I think it’s worth at least pointing to the double standard: Men were not included in this, because marriage wasn’t about control of human sexuality but about control of female sexuality. Similarly, until very recently, men had complete control over the sexuality of their wives; getting married denied women the ability to say “no” to sexual encounters.
Marriage, historically, was an institution that controlled women’s sexuality, their access to property rights, and their agency. The reason that feminists were opposed to marriage until very recent decades — after the long “romanticization” had removed its original purpose — was because of the constraints it placed upon a woman’s freedom.
I’ll say “good riddance” to any institution of domination and control.
(Additionally, it’s pretty impressive that a whole post about women’s issues ignores any feminist thought from the last thousand years.)Report
I second everything in this comment. What romantic love destroyed about marriage wasn’t worth keeping in the first place.
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The irony is this. Prior to romantic love, marriage was a strong, but (often enough) horrific institution. After it dominated marriage, it became a a much more worthy institution, but its strength is a joke.
Also, the high passion of romantic love is over-rated. The kind of friendship and affection that make a long lasting marriage do not necessarily have anything to do with romance.Report
How are we defining “strength”? Duration? Is a miserable 40-year marriage that makes both participants depressed, saps them of vitality, and damages their ability to pursue their goals more successful than a happy, 10-year marriage that ends when both participants amiably agree to go their separate ways? I’m skeptical of assigning unquestioning value to the permanence of institutions.
If your assertion that marriage is now “weak” is correct, is that grounds for returning to a monstrosity? Arguing that an institution’s strength matters more than its purpose (which you are insinuating here, although there seems to be some assumption of ‘marriage’ as a fundamental good) is ludicrous.
I’m not particularly interested in debating whether the passion of romantic love is overrated; that’s irrelevant to my argument that traditional marriage is not an institution worthy of survival.Report
You are wrong on this. Many times in history marriage has been weak. Men abandon their families and have always done so but there are times that it has occurred with much more frequency than other times. Expand your time horizon, read more social history. Remember that in pre-modern times, women died in child birth at much higher rates than they do today so men remarried without having divorce. Also men did not divorce their wives unless they had property and wanted to keep their social standing. They simply left town. Finally lots of people did not officially marry, they often lived together and referred to themselves as husband and wife, just like today. No surprise there, most people did not have birth certificates, Everything was much less formal before the modern state and modern communications made info so readily available. When you add this into the mix, it is not at all clear that marriage is weaker today than it has been in the past.Report
The irony is this. Prior to romantic love, marriage was a strong, but (often enough) horrific institution. After it dominated marriage, it became a a much more worthy institution, but its strength is a joke.
And so your argument is what, then? That we should want our institutions to be strong and horrific? Are you sure you’re a liberaltarian?
Also, the high passion of romantic love is over-rated. The kind of friendship and affection that make a long lasting marriage do not necessarily have anything to do with romance.
Yes, but there are other things that make for a good marriage in the modern way of thinking — such as a profound, lifelong friendship. Or a shared commitment to a particular way of life or set of values.
The reality is that none of these good things has anything to do with the coercive and misogynist elements of traditional marriage.Report
Yes, but there are other things that make for a good marriage in the modern way of thinking — such as a profound, lifelong friendship. Or a shared commitment to a particular way of life or set of values.
I was going to say this- people whose marriages hinge on maintaining romantic love are pretty likely to divorce, yes, but most married people worth their salt are aware that long term marriages are like deep friendships with occasional (and thrilling) recurring bouts of romantic love. I’m not sure why that’s supposed to be a strike against people coming together via romantic love though.Report
I’m not sure why that’s supposed to be a strike against people coming together via romantic love though.
Its a strike because people who come together via romantic love may not necessarily have what it takes to have all the good kinds of friendship and stuff. That’s why they end up separating after the romance fades. If on the other hand, a couple got married because they rationally assessed that they were compatible and then romance bloomed that would be fine.Report
Well, if my neighbors separate after their romance fades, it neither breaks my arm nor picks my pocket. Besides, I thought we were talking about arranged marriages being stronger than romance matches because they last longer (and this is not, presumably, because people who are susceptible enough to parental pressure to marry someone their parents picked for them would also stay together for the same reason?) instead of talking about replacing romance marriages with something else entirely. What you’re talking about- rationally assessing a relationship before marrying- is really a lot more common than you seem to think.Report
in Japan, which does both, it’s more likely to be “is desperate/having trouble finding someone” rather than susceptible to parents.Report
The reality is that none of these good things has anything to do with the coercive and misogynist elements of traditional marriage.
Yes, so we can jettison the coercive and misogynist elements of traditional marriage. Include the friendship stuff and still reject romantic love as the proper basis of marriage.Report
If this is what you want, then it isn’t socially conservative.
Also, the word “basis” is overworked here. In the West, many — probably even most — respectable marriages begin with romantic love. Is that their “basis”? If so, do we condemn them?
Or do we only condemn them when they don’t move on to something deeper?Report
But you favor government protection of the institution of marriage, don’t you?Report
No, what made you think I did?Report
I was asking Jason.Report
For some purposes, yes. For others, no.
I do not favor differential tax treatment for married couples. I do favor the presumption of inheritance, child custody, power of attorney, and medical decisionmaking rights that is conferred by marriage. Having one instrument for these things (and a few others) and calling it “civil marriage” seems like a sensible approach to me, one that solves many problems of governance and vindicates the ordinary expectations of how the law should work.Report
Thanks for clarifying that.Report
I just want to +1 Shay’s comment above. The ‘institution’ of marriage is very bound up in oppression and maintaining, or imposing, privileged and otherwise unjustified power structures on women. A libertarian critique of marriage that doesn’t include the feminist perspective on this isn’t really a libertarianism worth taking intellectually seriously.
Shay’s comment also points to a subtle type of revisionism I see frequently wrt the issue of marriage – that the fundamentally oppressive and privileged roots of that institution should somehow be excluded from the ‘debate’.Report
In a society where woman have the same rights and opportunities as men, how would you choose your mates other than romantic love? Traditional marriage took the form it did precisely because women did not have the rights of men. Without the opportunity to fend for themselves, women needed a marriage to live. When women were not married, they lived with male relatives.
If your argument is that frivolous notions of romantic love undermine marriage then fine. Fools will be fools but that is a straw man and I think you know it.
This is ridiculous. You clearly dont understand the history of romantic love if you think the de-stigmatisation of divorce had any thing to do with romantic love. Romantic love has been a force in western society for a good 500 years. De-stigmatization of divorce is relatively new, the last 50 years or so. And guess what, it is going back the other way. The trend is that long marriages are more admired, leaving your wife is seen more as a character weakness. This is part of the ebb and flow of morals. You can find many times in our history when libertine’s ruled followed by a conservative backlash. It is the rhythm of society and you have just taken on turn of the cycle and made a sweeping generalization based on it.
Oh I get it now, you ARE a conservative. That whole ‘libertarian with some social conservative views’ is kind of like being bi-curious. Come out of the closet, dont be ashamed, admit your conservatism!Report
In a society where woman have the same rights and opportunities as men, how would you choose your mates other than romantic love?
Voluntary arranged marriages. (or strong parental vetoes)Report
Voluntary arranged marriages.
You want voluntary arranged marriages, and you don’t want strong state involvement?
You’ve just destroyed the factors that made the strong institutions you liked–it isn’t voluntary love per se that undermined the permanence of marriage, but the admission of voluntariness in entrance and the reduction/elimination of state control over marriage that enabled voluntariness in exit.
If I read you correctly, you’re trying to have it both ways–voluntary but permanent–but it just won’t work.Report
If I read you correctly, you’re trying to have it both ways–voluntary but permanent–but it just won’t work.
I dont think so. This is also backed up by personal anecdotal evidence. All the people I know who had arranged marriages are happily married.Report
Mr. Murali speaks from another culture halfway around the world. I’ll stick around in case I might learn something. Me, I like our assumptions being challenged on How Man Works. We seek the universals about man and one’s own culture is more a prism than a decent pair of bifocals.
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Then maybe he should refrain from sounding like he’s the expert giving a prescription to fix what’s wrong with other people’s society. We’re not going around telling him arranged marriage is evil; it might work in his culture, but he should not act as if that is the perfect prescription to fix what he thinks is wrong in other culture.Report
Plus it’s amazing that the same people who are always screaming about the evils of multiculturalism seem so excited about following Mr Murali’s prescription from another culture. But I guess since Mr Murali also subscribes to the most important ideology of all – authoritarian – his brand of multiculturalism is A-ok to you guys.Report
To Tom, perhaps. But I’m seeing a lot more dissent than support on the thread.Report
Jason, don’t mistake my willingness to entertain Mr. Murali’s thoughts for accepting them.
I don’t think arranged marriage has much of a future in the United States. However, from what I gathered, in Mr. Murali’s culture, marriages are arranged with the consent of the parties.
It’s worth entertaining the shocking thought that it’s with forming a family in mind rather than formalizing a sexual relationship. I’m not yet firmly decided that romantic love is the only sensible mechanism. I’m willing to hear more.Report
I’ll point out that, in a society with with reliable contraception (and, though this may be cynical, reliable paternity testing), it’s not impossible to have a marriage based on a mutual desire to raise children combined with profound friendship and trust, while making room for romantic love on the side. At least technically; I don’t know if PEOPLE could deal with it, at least universally, of course.
On a different note, given the increasing importance of intangible inheritances to children (education, etc) versus tangible inheritances (land, etc), I’m not sure a successful marriage needs to be truly permanent. Once the children are, say, 30, I don’t know that an amicable separation is going to do them or society any harm, especially if it’s something that’s at least potentially anticipated as a normal part of marriage.
Moving marriage away from a model of romantic love would be a radical change from contemporary Western culture. But I’m not sure it has to be radically reactionary.Report
also subscribes to the most important ideology of all – authoritarian
How is anything I’ve said about marriage here authoritarian? Look, I will fully admit to being authoritarian on other threads where I’ve spoken out against democracy (but democracy is fundamentally illiberal and boneheaded), but what does that have to do with my position on romantic love? Now, given the comments here that I have received it may be that it is a bit too simplistic to point to romance as the one thing that made marriage weak. The case can still be made (but it will have to be more nuanced and better argued). The question is, how the hell is what I’ve proposed authoritarian?Report
“but democracy is fundamentally illiberal and boneheaded”
So, why do you choose to live in Singapore and not North Korea then, if democracy is so boneheaded and illiberal?Report
Probably because Singapore is about the most liberal non-democracy around. If he’s looking for a liberal place, who could seriously suggest North Korea?Report
Murali,
Okay, so let me give you a different thought experiment: “a woman and her brother are the parents of her offspring”. Romantic love is allowed, and sexual partners are serial monogamous.
(actual culture in India. they do a “marriage” with a man from a higher caste, as well, but he’s not terribly important to day to day life.)Report
How voluntary would it be for women as opposed to men? But I guess that’s not an issue that matters to you, since you’re the guy who thinks marriage is soooo much better in the old days (I bet the ladies don’t think so).Report
How voluntary would it be for women as opposed to men?
I’m talking about present day society in modern industrialised nations. it is as voluntary for women as it is for men.
since you’re the guy who thinks marriage is soooo much better in the old days
I just said it was stronger. Gender equality has come a long way and I’m not about rolling that back. And the reason it was stronger has more to do with the role romance played (or not) as its corner stone than with issues of gender (in)equality.
As Katherine mentions below, non-romantic types of love and friendship are important to marriage and strengthen it. (i.e. think of marriage as a formalisation of friends-with-benefits rather than as a celebration of a romantic connection)
Also, in traditional south Indian Hindu weddings, the vows are not about obeying and honouring so much as committing to a mutual friendship.
Its romantic love which is problematic to the strength of marriages, not other kinds of love and not gender equaliy.
And just because I criticise 1 semi recent development in the institution of marriage and point to it as the root cause of its present weaknesses it doesnt mean that I think all modern features of marriage are bad, nor does it mean I think marriage in the past was just fine and dandy. Get over yourself.Report
Romantic love has been a force in western society for a good 500 years.
You just made Abelard and Heloise cry you know.Report
My fundamental problem isn’t the goal, it’s the logistics.
You touch on this with regards to marriage. You can’t imagine a particular policy. I imagine that part of this for you is the pragmatic issue of being able to think of one that would work. I’ll ask you to try this thought on:
What can you imagine you, yourself, having the right to do to prevent divorces? It seems like such a silly question when asked that way, right?
Now let’s get to the darker part of your post: What can you imagine you, yourself, having the right to do to prevent abortion?
Keep in mind, this is what you’ll be asking The State to do on your behalf.Report
You touch on this with regards to marriage. You can’t imagine a particular policy. I imagine that part of this for you is the pragmatic issue of being able to think of one that would work. I’ll ask you to try this thought on
Its not that I cant imagine policy. Its that whether or not the institution of marriage is a good thing, what happens to it isnot the business of the state.Report
Fair enough.
To what extent is pregnancy the business of the state? When it comes to issues of abortion, what would preventing abortion actively entail? What institutions would need to be in place to effectively limit abortions?
Would you, Murali, be comfortable doing *ANY* of the things that you’re asking the state to do on your behalf?Report
When it comes to issues of abortion, what would preventing abortion actively entail? What institutions would need to be in place to effectively limit abortions?
We would need carrots and sticks. Many women are driven to abortion out of desperate circumstances. First the carrot. A large part of reducing abortions will involve improving the prospects of the worst off so that a pregnant woman will not find herself in desperate situations. This involves policies aimed at pursuing economic growth as well as highly efficient means tested social safety nets.
The second part would be the stick. How do we track illegal abortions? the same way we track other forms of illegal killing. If someone finds a dead foetus in the dump, a DNA test will reveal who the mother is. Applying the age-appropiate punishment is a matter of the courts and existing policy. At the same time, collaborate with healthcare professionals to institute guidelines for when licensed/certified medical practitioners may perform abortions. (i.e. viability point, health risks etc)
The third plank of abortion reform is about providing a third option to pregnant women wanting to end their pregnancy. The third option is to induce labour and extract the viable foetus. The neonate will likely survive and can be put up for adoption when its condition is stabilised and it is ready to leave the icu.
Would you, Murali, be comfortable doing *ANY* of the things that you’re asking the state to do on your behalf?
I dont know that I will be willing to do the operation myself, but the others? probably.Report
This is interesting. So would all citizens need to have their blood types and DNA catalogued by the state? How would know by the fetus’s DNA who the mother was without it?
Not only this, many of the carrots you have sound like state funded types of things. I know you pay attention to American politics and governance and am curious how you think this type of social spending doesn’t get viewed through the same lens as current social spending does, i.e. we have too much and can’t afford more and actually need to cut it?
Needless to say, this all sounds very much more conservative than libertarian.
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There is no “economic consensus.” There is a particular set of economic policies, favored by moneyed and powerful actors, that is constantly represented as the consensus in order to demonize and exclude a robust set of differing opinions, without bothering to argue. That the economic “consensus” is that which best suits plutocrats and corporations is not a coincidence.
I know Kuznicki constantly tries to assume away different opinion but there’s no need to adopt that tactic.Report
There is no “economic consensus
You mean that there is no set of substantive claims that can draw a general consensus among economists? Not even a rough grained version?Report
Too late, he’s already gone.
Next time, you should open with a paragraph talking about how you know how much he cares and you know that (such-and-such) issues are very, very important to him and you want him to know that you care about these things too… and *THEN* ask your question.
You gotta invest in the emotional bank account if you expect to be able to make a withdrawal.Report
a robust set of differing opinions
“Opinions.” Precisely.Report
To be honest, my own opinions on the institution of marriage come from what most people would consider “left field” (well, excluding French people). This is why I tend not to share those opinions in bloggy form, and why I’m not going to pile on here, but I do want to understand better what you mean by “the valorisation of Romance”. It seems to me that romance has always been valorised, at least in poetry, literature, and philosophy, which would seem to suggest it was held in high regard culturally. This was not, as you point out, necessarily the case in the law and perhaps that was what “weakened”. As for cuckoldry, it was an old saw in comedy, so definitely not unheard of, especially since young girls were frequently married off to much older men. It always seemed like a fairly lousy system for men in that regard because it assigns so much power to women- he can be a great military leader or even a King, but if his wife boinks someone else, he’s suddenly ridiculous in the eyes of humanity. But there are, nevertheless, tons of Medieval stories about knights and ladies in love chastely with one another and kept apart by the institution of marriage. It seems like what became weaker was the Church and state really, which were, of course, one and the same until the Modern era. Finally, let’s remember that a big part of Medieval marriage laws is that Jesus spoke very harshly against divorce. (An interesting aside: Martin Scorsese, as a Catholic, has said that he expects to go to hell for having divorced). The norm, incidentally, in a marriage gone sour was to deposit the missus in a convent.
So, we’re talking about the Church/State having less power than culture in the modern era. But, of course, culture is not static, so assuming that marriage will continue “weakening” into the future seems unnecessarily gloomy. When I was reading your post I kept saying to myself, “And yet… they marry”.Report
Murali,
When I take Rawls seriously and ask what type of society I would create behind the veil, my answer has been that I would choose a libertarianish society with strict prohibitions against abortion. It always seems to me bizarre that pro-choice liberals are attracted to Rawls, as this anti-abortion stance seems to be the most obvious implication.
When I think of the veil, I picture Woody Allen in a sperm costume and before he gets shot out the gate some social bureaucrat with a clipboard asks him what type of world he wants to enter.
Bureaucrat: “OK. Mr Allen, assuming you don’t get aborted, what system of justice are you choosing?”
Woody: “What do you mean aborted? I want to enter a system where I don’t worry about being aborted!”
Bureaucrat: “Ummm… that option isn’t on the checklist.”
Woody: “Well we better write it in.”
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On the first question: if you are saying that a shallow view of romance has led to a devaluing of marriage and fidelity, and that this is a bad thing, I agree. But if marriage does not exist for the purpose of love – a deeper, stronger kind of love than romance, which can overcome things like differences of opinion or temporary quarrels or wrongs – then I would posit that there is little reason for it to exist.
Also, isn’t there an argument that the changes in the institution of marriage are the result of greater rights of women? Once men and women could hold property jointly and couldn’t be told whom to marry by their parents, the use of marriage for managing property and forging alliances, or to satisfy parents, was pretty much defunct. The only reason left of the ones you list was then “rearing children” – and more and more young couples are choosing not to have children now. So rather than destroying marriage, love could be seen as the only reason why the institution of marriage continues to exist at all; it’s certainly the reason why same-sex couples have fought so hard for the right to be included in it.
On abortion, I agree with you.Report
Not quite on topic, but I strongly disagree with your interpretation of Romeo and Juliet as glorifying romance.
We’re not meant to idolize R&J, or glorify their love. We’re supposed to pity them and recognize their love as foolish. Juliet is a silly thirteen-year-old whose feelings for Romeo are as deep and profound as a modern teen’s love of Justin Beiber. Romeo spends the first act-and-a-half deeply in love with Juliet’s cousin.
Love and hate are shown as two sides of the same coin–both appealing to the young and foolish, and both with immense destructive power. Lord Capulet and Lord Montague are ready to make peace–it is their silly children that must war or love, and thus doom all.Report
I recall that my Shakespeare professors all taught the work with a perspective completely at odds with what you’ve put forth. It seems quite clear that the dude believed in romantic love.
Romeo goes through a maturation from a juvenile crush to a more grown-up love as his romance with Juliet develops. Juliet is almost at her marriagable age already. The point of the play is not that kids are stupid.Report
I am very ignorant in most things Shakespear but wasn’t R&J written as a comedy?Report
There’s a lot of funny stuff in it, and I was taught that you can’t tell that R&J is a tragedy until Mercutio dies at which point it’s a foregone conclusion.
On the other hand, given Shakespeare’s obsession with fate and fulfilling social obligations I doubt he started it out a comedy and then decided to revise it and kill them off.
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Maybe it was both? Maybe Shakespeare was Tarantino before Tarantino was?Report
Now there’s a great analogy, I would say he certainly was.Report
Please, you don’t get to call yourself a liberaltarian. just because you want to. You are an authoritarian, and your socially-conservative views in these subjects are just extension of your authoritarian beliefs.Report
Things That Never Goes Over So Well With Me, Example #187: People arguing that my successful marriage should be changed to reflect what they want their marriage to be, and arguing that the existence of mine is destroying the institution of marriage and society itself. Bonus points given to those that are either single or divorced when making said arguments.
(please see also: related opinions on child-rearing)Report
I’m not familiar with those arguments, RTod. I am familiar with those straw men, though. ;-PReport
I’m sorry, did I misread the OP?Report
I thought it was stated as a conditional:
If you think the longevity of the union is important…Report
Really? The very first argument:
Romantic Love destroyed the institution of marriage
seemed a bit unconditional to me. As did this:
“The whole point of a marriage is/was to tell everyone else in the village that this person is going to become my wife and that my property by default is going to go to the offspring of this union when I die etc etc. “
This not only seems unconditionally spoke, but will come as a huge shock to my wife:
“It therefore became a virtue to break the covenant of marriage if said marriage had become stale and a new dashing prince charming came along. “
And my children will be most sorry to hear this:
“Romantic love also destroyed the family.”
But bristling at such words is really me just making up straw men, I suppose.Report
Well, Tod, you’re just saying he’s wrong.
People arguing that my successful marriage should be changed to reflect what they want their marriage to be
I don’t think he demands you & yr lovely missus fall out of love.
and arguing that the existence of mine is destroying the institution of marriage and society itself.
Well, mebbe sort of, if you stretch it sophistically. But the phenomenon he’s describing occurred centuries before your own marriage, I don’t think a charitable reading would put him as recommending you put your own marriage out of existence to save the institution.
I was detecting echoes and analogies to another sort of marriage controversy here in the 21st century in yr remarks, but I suppose that was just my imagination.
It’s just that the language and formulation seemed so familiar…
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No Tom, now you’re trying to read things into what I’m saying that you want to be there.
You don’t hear me saying: “Murali, you’re totally wrong about marriage; if you are married, or if this is the way your family did it, then you are doing it wrong and you are destroying the family and (as I believe he put it) western civ.”
Lot’s of people have different kinds of marriage than I have chosen, and have led happy lives. My parents, who chose a slightly different traditional Man Is Head of Household/Woman Does All Domestics model come to mind. I don’t know of anyone in my generation, but I know a few couples that are parents of friends who were the product of arraigned marriages – and they seem both happy and in love, and have certainly raised successful families. I even know people who are quite old and celebrating decades old anniversaries – on their second marriage.
It’s one thing to say “This is the kind of relationship I want, and the kind of family I want to raise,” and then do so with commitment and kindness. It is quite another to say, “That’s not the kind of marriage I would choose, so it is wrong and harmful.”
And for the record, no… My reacting to people speaking like this about my marriage and my family is not some knee-jerk stepping up to protect Jason and Russell…. That’s just silliness – going out of your way to find an excuse to cry PC.
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the product of arraigned marriages
I always thought marriage was a crime.Report
Oh, auto-correct – you make everything I type better!Report
RTod, I understand Murali to be speaking in the theoretical, not about existing marriages like yours.
And if you attest that I heard PC echoes where there were none, I shall of course take you at your word. But the consonances sure were spooky.Report
What, it’s spooky that me telling someone to stop cracking on my marriage is similar to Jason telling someone the exact same thing about his? How is that spooky?Report
In fact, so we avoid even the appearance of PC rhetoric, let my simply rephrase my entire comment:
Lord, spare me from people who have never been married explaining to me what a good marriage is really all about. (And, as also mentioned in my original comment, also from those without kids telling me about how my child should really be raised.)
Better?Report
Sure, Tod, but I’m willing to listen. I find his thoughts interesting.
And they’re directed at the dysfunctional marriages and non-marriages. For every rule there are exceptions, perhaps even a great many of them. “The sex was always good” is a line used so much in the movies and TV by dysfuctional, split-up couples that perhaps the cliche holds some truth, that being hot for each other isn’t enough.
As for how you’re raising your kids, I’d have to get a gander at the little monsters before I venture an opinion.Report
OK, this was awesome: “As for how you’re raising your kids, I’d have to get a gander at the little monsters before I venture an opinion.”
As to your other point, of course there are dysfunctional marriages today. But there were back in the day, as well – at least be any metric we might measure such a thing. Thinking dysfunctional/horrible/failed marriages are a thing of the modern age is as much of a myth as marriages were never happy or successful until the modern age.
You are correct, of course, that being “hot” isn’t enough to keep a marriage together. But the other unspoken half of that argument is that back in the day people didn’t get married for shallow reasons (not true) and now everyone does (also not true).Report
RTod, I’m not endorsing Mr. Murali’s musings, but the developments of the past century—contraception and economic changes, that women can now survive on their own [as opposed to being limited by their lesser physical strength, or by misogynistic social laws and conventions]—may have put “being hot for each other” at the top of the list instead of a few notches down where it might belong.
IOW, that his musings might hold much truth, not that they are THE truth.Report
Fair enough, and I think that’s worth discussing. But to say that romantic love has destroyed the family is knee jerk hyperbole. (Sorry to be harsh, Murali, but it is.)
He is correct that marriages lasted longer hundreds and thousands of years ago. But that is mostly because of all the reasons others have already pointed out better than I could. You have to take the good with the bad. You don’t want to make women the property of men, and instead give them freedom to make their own choices? Fine, then you have to live with all of those consequences – including that they may not choose to stay married to you, or even consent to marry you in the first place. You want to have a society where there is class mobility? Great, but you might find that arranged marriages are no longer as universally desirable as they once were. Thems just the breaks.
But do any of these things mean that the institution of marriage is now tarnished, or that western civ is on the skids – us having given women rights as equal humans and encouraged class mobilitity? Quite the opposite, say I. I understand that others, especially conservatives, might feel differently – and I understand that they might feel different for reasons other than I list here. And as far as I’m concerned, they should be allowed and encouraged to pursue their life-partnerships as they wish, so long as they do so with both commitment and kindness toward those they commit to. L’chaim, I say! But I’ll still choose the marriage that I have, and choose to honor the marriage of my parents and grandparents, and siblings as well – romantic loves and deep friendships, each and every one.
And come tomorrow, the sun will still rise, and civilization will still stand. True, we’ll probably have another season of Jersey Shore, but we’ll muddle through somehow.Report
But to say that romantic love has destroyed the family is knee jerk hyperbole.
Tod, I’ll cop to this. I was in a bit of a mood and was looking for a heading which would grab attention. (Though it seems to have generated more heat than I initially expected)
My apologies. I didnt mean to cast aspersions on your mariage or suggest you dissolve it or anything. (Removing foot from mouth)Report
Murali – No worries! It appears that I, too, was in a bit of a mood today. I was obviously cranky.
Come to Vegas (a long flight, I know!) in May and I’ll offset part of your flights with many, many rounds of drinks.Report
I’m not as sanguine, Tod: I do believe the “conservative” trope that our culture isn’t just mutating, it’s dissolving. Marriage is also a social institution, not just a contract between two individuals, which is the current trope if not fast becoming the dominant view.
I did some poking through the history of marriage over the weekend, and it wasn’t just the abusive-exploitative institutionalization of misogyny that our “theory”-influenced drones paint it as.
We must remember that when Hobbes wrote that life was nasty, brutish and short in the 1600s, he wasn’t kidding. Marriage, for all its flaws and non-21st century lack of enlightenment, was still a means of protection for a woman and her children.
And this is still true, if you poke through the metrics in 2012. Single motherhood is still highly correlated with poverty, and it shouldn’t be hard to correlate it strongly with, yes, “wealth inequality” and the rest of that list of the unfairnesses of the current era.
Marriage worked for Hillary Clinton, who could bring home the bacon and fry it up in a pan. The wretches of Jersey Shore, I don’t know what awaits them.
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I agree with almost everything you say here, Tom… I might quibble at the notion that premarital sex and sex out of wedlock is a modern day phenomena, and that we are on a downward slope. But we are mostly on the same page.Report
Tod, those “History of Sex” things, I dunno, I’m no expert. It’s what you do about what happens after, if anything, on trial here.
Mr. Murali’s world doesn’t let people kiss on the movie screen, let alone fake doing the nasty. On the other hand, they came up with the Kama Sutra.
We only have porn. Some pretty nasty doing of the nasty. On the other other hand, they seem to be having a good enough time, so perhaps romantic love is overrated afterall.
😉
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I might quibble at the notion that premarital sex and sex out of wedlock is a modern day phenomena, and that we are on a downward slope.
It depends on what we’re talking about. Of course premarital sex and sex out of wedlock have always been with us. That doesn’t mean, though, that there isn’t a substantive difference between it happening and it becoming an accepted cultural norm.
In the first case, you have a couple of kids periodically fumbling in the back of a Chevy. In the latter case, you have a much greater sense of expectation. And with that expectation is likely to come greater frequency, more partners, and much greater pressure among people who otherwise would put it off or tread more carefully.
Too much of the sexual discussion is treated in the binary. Social conservatives with the black-and-white approach where the world ends if you have premarital sex or more than one partner ever. Social liberals seeming to… well… this.Report
In the latter case, you have a much greater sense of expectation. And with that expectation is likely to come greater frequency, more partners, and much greater pressure among people who otherwise would put it off or tread more carefully
This sounds right.Report
it becoming an established cultural norm is a GOOD thing, if you care about not having unwanted pregnancies. the more girls on the pill, the less they have to “take responsibility” for a boy quietly raping them.Report
You want to know what premarital sex was like in the old days? So glad you asked! It’s a question for a historian, and I’m happy to answer.
In the old days, young, unmarried men had whatever women they liked, until one of them got pregnant. Then they got married. Smart young men with money visited prostitutes instead, because that way they would never be expected to marry. Until the mid-nineteenth century, prostitutes were cheaper than pornography and often less frowned upon than masturbation.
It’s estimated that as many as a third of marriages even in puritan New England took place when the bride was already pregnant.
So… before you knock romantic love, do consider what system it was replacing. In all its sordid details.Report
That reminds me of Charlie Sheen’s response when a judge, busting him for soliciting, asked why such a good looking, rich, successful, young guy would have to “pay” for sex with beautiful women. He noted, (I’m paraphrasing) “I’m not paying for the sex; I’m paying them to leave.”Report
… I’d be tempted to put somethign here in l33t speak, just as a rejoinder. But I read better than I write, it appears.
Society fragmenting is not society dissolving.
And whenever I suggest ways to prevent our society from “dissolving” into haves and have-nots (the people allowed to crash planes into buildings, and the TSA-wading-through shmoos), you seem to get upset.
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Even if Romeo and Juliet had boinked a bit on the sly, then this was just an expression of romantic love for each other. The whole bloody aim of the story is to get us to root for the couple. That is why it is tragic when they both die. We are kept in suspense till the very end wondering how they will overcome their families’ objections. Romantic love also destroyed the family. Romeo and Juliet disobeyed their parents and failed to accord them due respect.
Oh. my. God. No. Just…no.
This is why, when suggesting we do some Shakespeare at the theatre I volunteer at, I always say ‘Except not Romeo and Juliet’. Because everyone else seems to be watching entirely the wrong play.
Please watch the climax of Romeo and Juliet and tell me with a straight face that Shakespeare isn’t mocking the characters, who both decide that life is so horrible without someone they knew for three days that they should commit suicide. (Although not without Romeo killing a perfectly innocent bystander who rightfully tried to apprehend him, a wanted felon.)
I know everyone laughs when teenagers aspire to be ‘like Romeo and Juliet’, but I always suspect I’m laughing for entirely different reasons. ‘Oh, so you want to be absurdly overly dramatic, think your five minute crush is some deep epic love, rush into a relationship, and then think that any problem is the entire of the world? Good luck with that, but try stopping short of the suicide, okay? Also, kill less people along the way.’Report
I don’t with to hijack Murali’s post into Shakespeare discussion, but there is zero textual evidence for the idea that Shakespeare takes R&J anything but extremely seriously, it also doesn’t at all fit in with any of his other work at all.Report