California Legislature Proposes Racial Discrimination in University Admissions Policy
Via Pacific Legal Foundation, the California Legislature recently passed a bill, SB 185, that would require the state’s public universities to discriminate on the basis of race and gender in their admissions policies. Here’s the relevant text of SB 185:
This bill would authorize the University of California and the California State University to consider race, gender, ethnicity, and national origin, along with other relevant factors, in undergraduate and graduate admissions, to the maximum extent permitted by the 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution, Section 31 of Article I of the California Constitution, and relevant case law.
And here’s the relevant provisions of article 1, section 31 of the California Constitution, as amended by Prop 209, which runs expressly counter to SB 185:
(a) The State shall not discriminate against, or grant preferential treatment to, any individual or group on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin in the operation of public employment, public education, or public contracting.
. . . .
(f) For the purposes of this section, "State" shall include, but not necessarily be limited to, the State itself, any city, county, city and county, public university system, including the University of California, community college district, school district, special district, or any other political subdivision or governmental instrumentality of or within the State.
(g) The remedies available for violations of this section shall be the same, regardless of the injured party’s race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin, as are otherwise available for violations of then-existing California antidiscrimination law.
(h) This section shall be self-executing. If any part or parts of this section are found to be in conflict with federal law or the United States Constitution, the section shall be implemented to the maximum extent that federal law and the United States Constitution permit. Any provision held invalid shall be severable from the remaining portions of this section.
In First Things, Hadley Arkes pointed out the moral problem of legally prescribed racial discrimination, still unanswered by its proponents:
Even in circles in which it is fashionable to be provocative, we never hear the question “How has the abolition of slavery worked?” We do not hear that question, I suspect, because people sense that the rightness or wrongness of ending slavery is wholly unaffected in principle by the extended consequences of that measure—whether the former slaves happened to prosper or grow poorer in their freedom. And yet it is quite common for people to ask whether policies of “reverse discrimination” or “busing for racial balance” have worked. . . .
. . . . When we say, for example, that it is “wrong to separate children in schools on the basis of race, do we mean that it is indeed categorically wrong—wrong in principle, wrong in itself? Or do we mean that it is only contingently wrong: it is wrong only because of its effects—because (in the words of the Supreme Court) it may affect the motivation of children to learn? Would a poor performance in school affect, in turn, the chances of black children to earn, in their maturity, incomes equal to those of whites? And if we attain an equality of performance in the schools, or a parity of income between the races, are those things good in themselves, or are they merely means to other ends? The questions lead on, once again, in a search for a final point, an understanding of something right or wrong in itself. . . . When the wrong of segregation is understood to hinge upon its material effects, we must necessarily dissolve the conviction that the segregation of people on the basis of race is categorically, in principle, wrong. [Boldface added.]
In California, lawmakers have not only sought to supplant the people’s anti-racial discrimination principle expressed in their constitution through an inferior act of lawmaking, they have failed to supply any principle with which to replace it. If the acts of California’s public universities are not to regard racial color-blindness as a good in itself, or racial discrimination as a wrong in itself, then what sorts of objectives of state admissions officials will be considered “good” or “bad”?
The problem is not only that lawmakers enact bad policy. It is that they make the scope and nature of their policies inscrutable. Modern policymaking is all making and no policy. Worse still, they devolve the responsibility for setting policy down the chain of command into the unelected ranks of chums and technocrats. In his review of Claude S. Fischer’s Made in America: A Social History of American Culture and Character, Wilfred M. McClay writes:
Voluntarism [a system, according to Fischer, in which relationships, organizational affiliations, and living circumstances are largely a product of individual choices rather than of necessity or external compulsion] requires a structure of laws and mores and institutions in which the individual is accorded a high degree of negative liberty, a liberty that he knows he has, and that the government knows he has, and that he knows the government knows he has. It requires the highest possible degree of directness, simplicity, accountability, and transparency. And it requires the right kind of ideas about human agency and human responsibility, in order to support those laws. Take those away, and put in their place a regime of arbitrary laws administered by large, unaccountable bureaucracies, undergirded by mores stating that the individual is powerless to know his rights and responsibilities, and you soon have a very different American social character, and certainly one in which voluntarism becomes either irresponsible or extinct. Ideas do have social consequences.
In their haste to restore rule by specialized knowledge, California lawmakers have ignored the will of the people reflected in their constitution. California voters have often wielded the initiative process with disastrous results, but stunts like SB 185 demonstrate why Californians still need a check against their legislators’ penchant for elitism.
Good effort trying to compare slavery to affirmative action, opps, I mean “reverse discrimination”. Three cheers!Report
Realistically, the UC is going to admit whomever will benefit the university, regardless of the resentment that whites and Asians about having their rightful place in a UC school snatched by someone less deserving. Having attended to UC Berkeley, I am pretty familiar with this debate and the annoying liberal hipsters whining about social justice.
The policy really only affects people who are on the borderline of acceptance, a very small percentage of each class. Students are very comparable in this range. GPAs are approximately in the same range as are SAT scores. GPAs are very difficult to compare high school students, even if they went to the same high school. How stable were your SAT scores? I went to Kaplan, which made me better at taking the test. You could say I cheated, in fact.
The argument for diversity is this: allowing the student body to become more of a monoculture is not in the interests of the State of California as a whole. Foreign and out-of-state students pay higher tuitions and help bring new ideas to the state and it also makes it easier for California to export ideas and culture throughout the world. You never know which graduates are going to go home and start a business of become prime minister.
Objective measures simply don’t exist. You can make the case that certain people are definitely better academically than others. UC uses its own composite based on GPA, SAT, and AP courses to classify certain applicants as “sure bets” (as in they will graduate and probably will succeed). No one will read these students essays or recommendations or care that they lived in a poor neighborhood and raised their siblings.
For the borderline cases, there is a huge qualitative difference between someone from a upper-middle class family who used test prep courses for several years (me) and someone who didn’t have time for that because they spent their time being leaders and making their communities better.
It’s not good for UC Berkeley to have 75% of its incoming class to come from elite magnet schools. Otherwise, it would be basically admitting the same sets of students who all went to the same high schools. A large portion of students prefer to stay near home so the applicant pool is already skewed towards locals. These people go home on the weekends for free food and laundry.
In any case, with Asian Americans intensely game the college admissions process. Will a person who’s done everything they were “supposed” to do be an asset to the university? Or a student who doesn’t come from that culture? Or comes from a culture that is hostile to education? Who is more likely to make a difference? Who is more likely to make a unique difference?
If we focus on *strictly* standardized measures because some feel wronged that someone “less worthy” got in ahead of them, the American education system gets closer to the masochism and mediocrity of universities in Asia. I certainly don’t want the next generation of Americans to be even more worked up by comparing their test scores when most students have enough variance that making a cutoff is a matter of luck and resources to spam the test system.
Favoring one student over another purely because of race (ceteris paribus) is slightly wrong. Allowing race to count too much or to making it a free pass would be wrong, but not that wrong. Probably any applicant from Bhutan would probably be admitted, assuming they meet the minimum measures for being likely to finish and not stay over 4 years.Report
Hi Jeff, interesting reply. Just a few things
1. As a state university, arguably, UC must be held to a higher standard when it comes to admissions than private universities. Whereas private universities have their own reasons which may legitimately allow them to use whatever admissions process which would be to the best interests of the university, state organisations must apply an equal opportunity standard. At the very least there is a presumption in favour of operating in a race-blind manner.
2. It is not clear that diversity is good for the university as an institution. This is especially the case where said person comes from a culture hostile to education. The fact that they may make a unique difference to the school is not sufficient. The unique difference they may be making could be detrimental to the university and its culture.
3. It is not even clear that the students (who fared worse on standardised tests) from non-magnet schools are sufficiently different vis a vis culture to be able to provide meaningful diversity. The student from Laos or Indonesia would be a better choice if you were aiming at diversity.
4. Even if diversity were a good to the university, that isnt the only or even the over-riding consideration when it comes to admissions.
5. There is a difference between having a neutral and rigid set of criteria, giving discretion in dealing with a neutral criteria and discretion coupled with race-base criteria.
6. The mere fact that american universities are allegedly better than asian universities does not imply that anything that makes amrican universities more like asian universities is bad. Its like saying that the Nazis made the train run on time and the Nazis were bad. Therefore making the trains run on time is bad. There is a name for this logical fallacy but I can’t remember this right now.Report
“It is not clear that diversity is good for the university as an institution. This is especially the case where said person comes from a culture hostile to education. The fact that they may make a unique difference to the school is not sufficient. The unique difference they may be making could be detrimental to the university and its culture.”
I imagine you might have a specific example of which person comes from a “culture hostile to education”? Should we exclude everyone from that cultural/racial background then to make universities a better place for everyone else?Report
I might be wrong, but I think you’ve mentioned being from Singapore, right? I presume you have a specific culture in mind with regards to Singapore when you mention “culture hostile to education” (probably the racial group that starts with M, right?) Well, how you guys prefer to do things over there might not be the best things for the US, see.Report
Actually I dont have any particular gorup in mind. Rather, I was rifing off Jeff’s use of the term. Jeff was claiming that getting people from different cultures even such a radically different culture thamay have been hostile to education was a good for the school. I think he is overstating the case. If there were hypothetically some people who do come from a background so hostile, it is not clear that they contribute anything constructive to the university. Granted, if people were hostile, it is not clear what they are doing in a university in the first place. People who want to go to a university, for some measure of want, want an education. They are not hostile.Report
ya, I do. Rednecks, due to a sort-of reverse selection process, tend to have a cultural attitude that is hostile towards education.
It comes from seeing your best and brightest leave, and likely look down upon you when they do come home to visit.
A perfectly understandable attitude.
I wouldn’t mind getting rid of bullies, but people from that culture deserve a chance to leave.Report
“I wouldn’t mind getting rid of bullies, but people from that culture deserve a chance to leave.”
Don’t understand what this means. Rednecks = bullies? Why can’t people just retire that term once and for all?Report
feh. meant no offense. bullies exist everywhere (I should know, most of all!).
But there’s definitely a culture that exists in certain rural areas, where they do not like “book-learning”, and anyone who’s got it is viewed with much skepticism. (not so much in PA. Penn State has many shinies, and loves to get free research done in farmer’s fields, so they pass around the goodies a lot).Report
1. There something in the framing of this that should be addressed. Yes, the UC is mostly equal opportunity in that it doesn’t discriminate against classes of people. However, when you’re dealing at the margins, basically all candidates are classified as approximately equal. Applicants get a little bonus point for being Native American. At this stage, essays get read anyways. You need to check for obvious frauds.
2. If they are going to go through all of the trouble and expense of university, they probably aren’t that hostile to education and interested in sabotage. Although, I would favor expulsion for AA protestors (who are clearly stupid tactically and rhetorically) to make room for more AA admits.
3. There is a huge difference between going to a high school where you’re considered a loser for not getting into any UCs (my school) and one where the school doesn’t help college applicants because there aren’t that many.
4. Which is why it is only matters for a small portion of the applicants. Diversity is good for universities and many other types of organizations like business and the military. Especially when it comes to idea generation and learning.
5. I agree with this. AA should never create race quotas. That is a legitimate problem with the proposed bill.
6. You’re thinking of a bad analogy, but no. However, the characteristic I am talking about is part of the difference. Students spend so much time and effort (see hagwons in Korea and elsewhere) that once they get into university, there is a huge tendency to coast and not work. I know this from being a TA of foreign students and discussion with peers who did undergrad in Asia. The system is largely about cutoffs though there are quotas for different ethnic groups and provinces. In the American system, numerical measures are used for gross sorting, people who cannot be rejected because it would be anti-meritocratic, and likely to be definitely harmful. Below the auto-admit cutoff, qualitative assessments are weighted equally with quantitative.
I bring up Asia as an example because of the public idea that Americans need be more like Asians, based on test score comparisons and the stereotypes from Asian-Americans, which is a very flawed idea.Report
There is a huge difference between going to a high school where you’re considered a loser for not getting into any UCs (my school) and one where the school doesn’t help college applicants because there aren’t that many.
This seems right. But, the solution to this may not necessarily be the kind that gives additional points just because you come from a poor inner city school. (as a tie breaker it could be okay)
The major worry is that the number of points afforded to coming from a disadvantaged background is adjusted until the university population (at least among the local damissions) starts looking a lot like the american or state population. This is functionally equivalent to a quota system which you do agree is bad.Report
http://www.uned.es/dcpa/doctorado0506/cursos/49Young_3ss.pdf
An interesting paper for discussion.
What I find frustrating about these discussions is the facile treatment of the fundamental issues. Not all discrimination is the same. Not all race-consciousness is the same. Yet, if we accept the reasoning of Tim and those like him (as usual, it’s not like this is not a post of cliches), then it would be pretty much impossible to address harmful racial discrimination through policy. I’m sure this is quite fine with Tim, but given the world we live in, the consequences are too great to let people who are allergic to nuance drive the discussion.
Also, apparently the Supreme Court’s history on this issue is unknown to Tim.Report
SCOTUS has in certain cases given states leeway in setting their own “reverse discrimination” policies. It is up to the states, however, to identify a need for racial discrimination. California’s constitution is clear that the people of this state do not regard the moral principle against racial discrimination as something to be compromised for light and transient causes. As other commenters have pointed out, schools are free to use non-arbitrary factors like geography, economic condition, where the students might have traveled and lived, etc.
Arkes again:
Report
By his account, IQ is as arbitrary as race. So entrance standards based on that would be as percarious, no?Report
ya. Now, me, I understand more about IQ. It is a fantastic measure of how normal your brain is, how equal it is at learning in different modalities.
I have many doubts on how well the IQ test can tell you how smart you are.
Apply, connect, reform, restructure — these are the strategic qualities that define high intelligence. They are quite hard to measure — if you think about it, can you measure them?
Even if I could devise a test to measure these things, it might not be retakable (though it might be quite replicable interpersonally)Report
Yes. Which is why if IQ fails to lead to some measurable merit that can be objectively considered, the number itself is basically meaningless from the perspective of the state.Report
So what non arbitrary criteria would the universities best base their admissions selection on?Report
I like that you call it “reverse discrimination.” It’s just discrimination, but like I said, not all discrimination is the same.
I don’t know much about the constiutional provision passed with Prop 209, but from the looks of it, the law definitely violates it. Not for any of the reasons you’ve laid out, because your reasons essentially say, “Hey, if we can’t do it, then you can’t either!” But based on my extremely limited knowledge, I can’t imagine how the new law will hold up.Report
“… your reasons essentially say, “Hey, if we can’t do it, then you can’t either!” ”
If it’s bad to do it, then why isn’t it bad to do it?Report
Here’s an analogy.
Some people look at pushing little old ladies out of the way of a bus and pushing little old ladies into the path of a bus as pretty much the same thing: Pushing little old ladies around.
There are, however, distinctions that can be made. Useful ones.Report
Precisely.Report
Yes, but–in context–we’ve been told that the reason it’s bad to push little old ladies in front of buses is that pushing little old ladies is bad, and that unfortunate bus interactions are just the kind of harmful things that happen to little old ladies when you push them.
And, furthermore, that the way to stop people pushing little old ladies in front of buses is to push other people away from little old ladies.Report
Yeah, now map your extension of the analogy onto affirmative action, and you’ll understand the way supporters actually see it: a necessary evil, in a sense. Discrimination is pervasive, and pernicious, and the only way to counteract it in some cases is, unfortunately, discrimination.Report
Discrimination is pervasive, and pernicious, and the only way to counteract it in some cases is, unfortunately, discrimination.
Chris, can you explain why racial discrimination is necessary here? Why not discrimination based on wealth, geography, school district, etc? We have more discrete tools at our disposal than race, do we not?Report
I’ll do all of the above as well. Again, I’ve got no problem with bonus points for being the first kid to go to college, bonus points for achieving x GPA despite working 20 hours/week, and so on.
But, race is still a factor. As much as being a poor white kid sucked, I knew even as a kid that on the average, being a poor black kid or Hispanic kid was even worse for a variety of reasons that has been gone over zillions of times in fifty different places.Report
Jesse,
Probably true in many instances, but I still don’t see why race should be a factor. For example, if a kid grew up in a Spanish-speaking household and had to learn to excel in an English-speaking school, by all means, put it in the admissions essay. Could also ask those questions in the application form. But it would be absurd to assume that every Hispanic kid shares that experience.
Why can’t we account for the discrete hardships of these students using the tools we have? More importantly, how does race tell us anything meaningful about these hardships?Report
Along with abolishing legacy preferences, it might be good to have a sort of anti-legacy preference: Reserve a non-trivial number of spots for anyone who has never had a family member go to college.
This might be difficult to prove, but I have a hard time thinking it’s a bad idea.Report
Tim, if you look at the data, you will quickly find that race is a statistically significant factor in school performance and admittance, even when controlling for other factors. That’s why. It’s not really that difficult. If you research this issue a bit, you won’t change your opinion, because it’s an ideological one, but you might at least understand the reasoning.Report
Chris, could you give me some more breadcrumbs? The data I’ve found so far is not nearly as clear as you suggest. For example, I’ve found that in 1998, the first year in which affirmative action was abolished in California following Prop 209, the UC system reported just a 2.2% drop in minority admissions. (Incidentally, the rate of minority enrollment in private four-year institutions increased.)
Interestingly, white admissions also decreased from 1997 to 1998 by a staggering 9%. Apparently, the group affirmative action had really been short-changing was Asian-Americans.
But I would be very interested to read the kind of study you described.Report
In a backwards way I’m with Tod on this. Let them figure out what they think they can accomplish with AA. Then, if we do go down that road hold them to it.
As it is, it’s just never-ending excuse for bureaucratic overreach.Report
Tim, I don’t mean affirmative action data. I mean educational outcomes, admittance, hiring, etc. Just go on google scholar and search for race and education, or race and test scores, or race and hiring rates, or race and admittance rates (you could also include the search term “regression”).Report
Chris, can you explain why racial discrimination is necessary here? Why not discrimination based on wealth, geography, school district, etc?
A good point. As I understand it (and I am open to correction), when Texas ended affirmative action policies, the UT system shifted to taking the top X% of the graduating class from each high school, a policy that might actually work much better than affirmative action at getting minorities into the state’s schools (given that the schools still have a lot of de facto segregation, based on relatively homogeneous neighborhoods), and is much simpler to implement and much easier to defend.Report
James, I haven’t seen the data since 2005, but initially, black and hispanic enrollment at UT dropped significantly after the 10% rule went into effect. In 2008 (I think), they significantly altered the top 10% rule, because it dramatically increased UT’s overall enrollment, though.Report
“Discrimination is pervasive, and pernicious, and the only way to counteract it in some cases is, unfortunately, discrimination.”
Thank you for admitting that reverse discrimination exists.
Although it’s interesting that you justify discrimination by pointing to discrimination. I wonder what your opinion is regarding blood feuds?Report
Density, apparently you missed the entire discussion. Sorry about that.Report
a vile cultural artifact, like the rule of thumb and child abandonment.Report
“Yet, if we accept the reasoning of Tim and those like him (as usual, it’s not like this is not a post of cliches), then it would be pretty much impossible to address harmful racial discrimination through policy.”
That would be a feature instead of a bug, if that were true. First of all, what Tim says is right but is something I tend not to dwell on because for good or ill most people have heard it already and have come to some sort of understanding of where they stand on the matter.
What is more important for me are the other consequences of policies like these that are usually not considered. In the big picture, the life of our culture is being choked out by the bureaucratic sclerosis of governmental and quasi-governmental bureaucracies. People wonder, why can’t we stop the drug war or why can’t we stop the drug war considering that 70% of Americans or 70% of Minnesotans or whatever support the decriminalization of marijuana. There is an answer to this.
We can’t stop the drug war because we have cops, prosecutors, prison guards, parole officers and the rest of it. Over the course of time, these people have acquired a fair bit of political power and have in an operational way have removed control over the drug war from the citizens.
It’s the same here. Anybody who’s been associated with a major university knows that the diversity racket is a major component of the education-industrial complex. In our current economy, we have a lot of people in their late twenties or so who find themselves with a $40K job and $60K of student loan debt. This might even describe a fair number of our readers here. Again, this isn’t something that just happens. It happens because their university has 80 diversity officers and all of them need to get paid (and dole out scholarships).
And getting back to Chris’ comment, let’s also note that this particular case also depends on an abuse of the law as well. The legislators and the educational establishment don’t need to address racial discrimination because the voters have already addressed it perfectly clear enough. Libs could, if they chose, try to repeal 209 the same way it was enacted. I’m sure there’s been some effort, however halting, for this. But failing that, their unwillingness to let things lie there has corrupted our culture. Libs might say that racial diversity is so important as to be worth doing anyway. So it’s important to remind them that they won’t always be able to control the ends our culture is corrupted to accomplish.Report
OK, so it’s not bad because there’s a categorical imperative against any kind of racial discrimination, but because it’s government involvement/beauracracy/part of the education-industrial complex. Interesting.Report
Categorical imperative is overstating the case a little bit but essentially yes.
Here’s another example that may or may not be goring your particular ideological ox.
As a parenthetical issue surrounding the various budget negotiations, people have brought up the home mortgage interest deduction. Economists of all stripes for the most part agree that it’s an inefficient use of tax dollars and distorts the housing market in bad ways. Nonetheless, with where we are now, there’s also a grudging realization that we can’t get rid of it because we can’t risk housing values deflating further.
This, and other things like it, are important obstacles to what can be done. This is what I was trying to get at in a guest post from some months back (which drew quite a bit of hostile comment as you can read for yourself). If you are ideologically hostile to this point of view, it’s worth it to clarify exactly why.
In any case, the point is that it’s very useful to get rid of detritus like the diversity-educational complex and the mortgage interest deduction when we have the opportunity to do it, so that when there’s something that we really want to do, we’ll have the resources to do it.Report
Meant to link this:
https://ordinary-times.com/blog/2011/04/03/high-hopes/Report
While I don’t like AA at all – it’s pretty hard to refute that just about every school is going to try and implement some kind of diversity scheme. It’s not even just race, ethnic or gender based. At many schools it’s also geographical. Schools that want a national reputation don’t want 80% of their student body to come from the surrounding counties.
At the end of the day, admissions is a black art that only they understand and there is almost no recourse for the public. Where they stumbled was putting it in writing.Report
> Where they stumbled was putting it in writing.
I think that’s on purpose. I think the regents would rather fight this fight in court than fight a lawsuit to put their admissions criteria in print when they haven’t done so because some kid is suing over not getting in.Report
Higher education is a mess. I’m not sure AA should be touched before systemic overhaul of the current university arrangment is considered and implemented.Report
The majority of UC students these days are women, so taking gender into account means admitting more men. I wonder if that changes anyone’s mind.Report
Why would it?Report
The perception being that women are a permanent suspect class and men are forever the priveleged class.
Whiggas and White trash are just as disadvantaged as blacks. Even granting white privelege, they lack white privelege because they are subject to discrimination merely for being in the social class that they are. They do not get the perks of affirmative action. People who end up getting admitted are middle class blacks.Report
You know, state universities in Kentucky have special scholarships and programs to get Appalachian students, the vast majority of whom are white, into college. You know why? Because white Appalachians are an historically and presently underpriveleged population. I’ve yet to hear anyone, anywhere (including in Kentucky, where complaints about affirmative action are not unheard of) complain about such programs.Report
And guess, I, the great supporter of reverse discrimination are in full support of programs like these. Even if it means Tyler from Surbubia has to go to his second choice college.Report
Chris and Jesse:
But the difference is that those programs are based on economics not on race, so a white person might be able to take advantage of it unlike most AA programs that directly discriminate directly against whites.Report
“When the wrong of segregation is understood to hinge upon its material effects, we must necessarily dissolve the conviction that the segregation of people on the basis of race is categorically, in principle, wrong.”
The wrong of racial segregation is that it’s based on unproven assumptions and faulty generalizations. It’s simple ignorance.
The problem with it is that it leads to categorical policy that’s based on arbitrary criteria.
Any policy predicated on racial segregationReport
Segregation would be wrong even if (and this is a big if) there was a 10 point difference in IQ between Blacks and whites.Report
Will employers be allowed to take the new college admissions standards into account when they look at resumes and offer interviews?Report
You mean trying to guess why they were admitted rather than looking at what they actually accomplished?Report
Would it be more okay if they didn’t have that company policy in writing?Report
It would be silly and counterproductive. Doesn’t the great engine of The Market punish that?Report
The Market punishes a great many things. Some worse than others.
One of the big benefits of a degree, in the past, was its usefulness as a signalling device.
It seems to me that policies as written above add to the noise portion of the signal:noise ratio and it seems to me that any given marketplace would adjust within a few years to attempt to get the ratio back to a useful one.
Is this illogical on its face?Report
Only in the underlying sense that a degree was always a bad signaling device, so it wasn’t so much a big benefit as a big perceived benefit.
It worked for the degree holder much more than the employer.Report
I imagine that if there were a better signalling device, it would have been hoovered up quicker than you could say Jack Robinson.Report
ya. and no. CS folks can easily prove whether they can do the work — 2 weeks, and voila! Either they’re worthy of being paid, or not.
Nobody does this. Nobody hires someone without a degree, unless the problem is so hard that the only person who can do it has no degree.Report
> CS folks can easily prove whether
> they can do the work — 2 weeks,
> and voila!
That is only a high enough bar to get you a junior programmer.
If you want a h4rd k0r3 developer, you really won’t know for sure until he’s done two large projects, four small ones, in six different working environments, with differing dependencies on the network guys and the sysadmin team, delivering for different business units including that crazy HR lady that everybody hates, and had to read and clean and troubleshoot somebody’s code other than their own.
Then maybe you know something.Report
An observation: It sounds like you’re saying that programming is more of a trade than anything else, with apprentices and journeymen and masters.Report
tch. ain’t it funny then, how people get hired doing that? Maybe it’s because hard problems take talent… And if the problem’s hard enough, you’ll work around the difficulties in the expert.
Am I such a primadonna? no way in hell. But there are people that good.Report
Generally speaking, programming and developing are two different things.
If you want a junior programmer, “write me a sort” is going to get you a result. I personally don’t want to hire anybody like this, and while there are plenty of job openings out there for junior programmers, it’s not the sort of job that most HR people are screening for today.
If you want a developer, then yeah, the trade model is a lot better. Tons better.
It’s either that, or know people.
> Ain’t it funny then, how people
> get hired doing that?
Not really. Hiring is hard.
> Maybe it’s because hard
> problems take talent… And if
> the problem’s hard enough,
> you’ll work around the
> difficulties in the expert.
Er, yes and no. It is contextual.
You should read this and this and note the difference between the Free Electron in the two.
And then you should read the rest of Rands In Repose, like everyone else who works with technical people, just because it is awesome.Report
Probably. Unfortunately, until recently we didn’t have too many boys coming back from the war as 2nd lieutenants.
Aside from that (which is actually a *good* signaling device for types of employment), “Hey, I’m doinkin’ your daughter” and “Hey, I have a college degree from your alma mater”, there isn’t much left as signaling devices.
Hiring is hard.Report
Pretty much. Being admitted to a university has always been driven by a combination of factors, some sensible, some wholly arbitrary. Singling out one (race, as always) to say “Now, the system is broken” is … well, there’s a word for it.Report
What if one is not saying “Now, the system is broken” but “It seems to me that policies as written above add to the noise portion of the signal:noise ratio and it seems to me that any given marketplace would adjust within a few years to attempt to get the ratio back to a useful one”?Report
Too abstract for me. What does it mean?Report
That it seems most likely that “the marketplace” would tend to give more weight to certain traits and less weight to others as a reaction to the colleges giving less weight to certain traits and more weight to certain others in an attempt to get back to the old signal:noise ratio.Report
That is, they’d assume any black kid was an AA admission? People who tend to do that sort of thing already do.Report
Is this likely to increase the number of people who tend to do that or decrease it (or keep it the same)? The degree to which they are inclined to let this sway their judgment… will this tend to increase, decrease, or stay the same?Report
Since bigots tend not to let facts get in the way of a good hate, I’ll vote “the same”.Report
You’re so Manichean.Report
Employers are permitted to do almost anything they want as it is. I don’t know what you’re trying to prove here, other than you can write cute things.Report
I don’t know what you’re trying to prove here, other than you can write cute things.
That should be enough for anybody.Report
Touché.Report
I like that you start your post by quoting a bill that explicitly limits itself by reference to a section of the Constitution, then cite that section of the Constitution to show how the bill is unconstitutional.
What?Report
Ryan,
I probably should have mentioned that in the OP, though it is covered in PLF’s letter to Gov. Brown. In short, you can see what is encouraged in SB 185 is slightly different than what is prohibited in Prop 209. Despite the symbolic deference to “relevant case law,” the measure essentially attempts to pick a legal fight to change the relevant case law that currently interprets Prop 209’s mandate broadly.Report
I usually admire PLF. Here they seem terribly exercised about a bill that can’t possibly have any effect.
The constitutions of both the state and federal governments: You can’t discriminate at all.
The bill: Discriminate as much as the constitutions allow.
So… discriminate not at all? Why is this controversial?Report
It shouldn’t be. What’s relevant is that inter alia you can now explicitly consider race etc. as long as such consideration does not reach the mark of “preferential treatment”. Before if you were trying to decide between two otherwise equal candidates you’d apparently have to flip a coin since you can’t consider anything else. I suspect they’re just codifying this so that they have legal cover for the inevitable watb suits.Report
That.Report
Jason,
The Courts and Legislature frequently do battle on how broadly or narrowly to interpret a statute or constitutional provision. The angle here appears to be to pare back the “broad” construction given to Prop 209 (based on the judicial policy that if a statute is reasonably capable of interpretation consistent with the Constitution, “‘the statute will be given that meaning, rather than another in conflict with the Constitution’” (County of Madera v. Gendron, 59 Cal. 2d 798, 801 (1963)), and replace it with something more like the standard under the Fourteenth Amendment that permits racial discrimination.
Will it work? It has to get Gov. Brown’s signature, then it has to be challenged in the courts, then who knows. I haven’t done much research on it, but I’d put my money on somewhat less than even odds and well above “can’t possibly have any effect.”Report
The constitutions of both the state and federal governments: You can’t discriminate at all.
The state constitution certainly seems to be saying that, but the federal constitution, at least according to the Supreme Court since at least ’89, says differently. That is, you can discriminate, you just have to pass strict scrutiny. Croson-related cases in particular end up in court constantly, and in general, the courts side with the state.Report
As soon as legacy admissions disappear, I’ll care about this.Report
Disappear?
What if legacy admissions are less than 3%? Is that close enough?Report
I’d make the argument that the amount of people who aren’t able to go to the college they want because of affirmative action being ‘discriminatory’ toward them is probably about the same as people who are barred from the college they want because the scion of a big donor graduated high school in the same year. There is no mass of white or Asian kids being barred from going to the school they want.Report
If someone can show you that this is false, would you change your mind?Report
You do realize that a goodly number of the whites hurt by affirmative action are not remotely helped by legacy admissions, right?Report
To be blunt, as I said above, I think the number of whites (and Asians) ‘hurt’ by affirmative action is vastly overblown by those who want to attack affirmative action.Report
Is the number of folks who receive help by affirmative action measurable?
I mean, can we look at the folks who get in because of it and look at what happens to them X years later and see what’s up?
If one happens to drop out with debt from a school that one would not have managed to be accepted to without these policies, should that be measured as harm done by these policies?
Are there numbers that we could compare/contrast good done against harm done?Report
To the extent that this is true, and that preferred college admissions don’t matter, then the degree to which minorities hurt by the abolition of affirmative action is rather marginal as well.
I actually think that there is something to this, by the way. If you don’t get into the college of your choice, you simply go to the next one down on your list. It’s one of the reasons that I am not all that excitable on the subject of affirmative action more generally.
Even so, legacy admissions are a very imperfect counter to affirmative action because it rests on the assumptions that whites and Asians are helped by one and hurt by the other, when the two are approached differently. One is expressly race-based. The other has race as being somewhat incidental to something else.Report
I’m going to take a wild guess that legacy admissions doesn’t accurately reflect the demographics of even the whitest state in the Union. So, even if it isn’t directly race-based, it’s going to favor whites.
My larger point on legacy admissions is that as conservatives talk about reverse discrimination, they never seem to remember to throw in, ‘they shouldn’t allow legacy admissions either.’ It’s the ole’ joke I’ve heard about Irving and Bill Kristol.Report
Yes, but they *don’t treat all whites the same*. Or even remotely so. This is significant! Very significant! Preference for a Winklevoss doesn’t help a guy named Jespeczyk. Preference for minorities help minorities more generally.
I know, I know, you dislike Republicans and therefore you can just dismiss all of their points out of hand. But it rings pretty hollow to people whose primary interest is not bashing Republicans.
But a better comparison for legacy admissions are programs like Texas’ Top-10% program, which disproportionately favored minorities and people who went to minority schools. And which meets with a lot less visceral resistance among whites in general.Report
As I said below, I’m also for affirmative action for poor people, those from crappy school districts, de-emphasizing standardized tests in admissions, etc.
But, yes. race still has to be a part of it. Sorry, 400 years of institutional racism hasn’t gone away in the last thirty years.Report
Get to work on making the class-based affirmative action happen and you might lose some of the resentment to AA among a lot of whites.Report
Will:
It might do just that but do you really think that Uncle Al and Uncle Jesse will every let go of AA voluntarily?Report
“Dukes don’t fight Dukes.”Report
This is true. They gang up on Tarheels.Report
how many public schools have legacy admissions? my impression is that only private schools. the Fourteenth Amendment only prohibits discrimination by governments not private institutions.Report
I would add that the number of Asians going to the top California colleges is nothing short of astonishing. And quite possibly would not have occurred without the ending of affirmative action in that state. While I think for whites in California it may be a push*, for Asian Americans it seems to have had quite a large effect.
* – I’ve read, and it makes sense to me, that if colleges are allowed to consider race that whites do okay because they’re still a “preferred” race due to the fact that they have higher participation rates and make more generous alumni. Asians, however, are (allegedly) much more stingy with their donations, don’t participate in general activities on campus (ie go to football games, join social clubs, etc.) and therefore are less desirable to universities. This matches my experiences in college in terms of participation.Report
The number of Asians was pretty astonishing back when I was at UC, and AA was in full swing.Report
Were they the plurality? Does anybody have some good before/after statistics?Report
There were way more Asian kids than “other minority” kids, so the fraction of Asian kids affected by AA had to be pretty small.
I’m wondering though, if the ratio of Asian to white kids has gone up, what does that have to do with ending AA?Report
That is factually untrue. I attended UC Berkeley before AA was cancelled and about 50% of the school was Asian. Now it’s probably up to 60%.Report
Actually I take that 50% to 60% number back. The current number is actually 43%. But based on the areas of campus I was usually at, it seemed like over half at least. And a 10% increase would be ludicrous .Report
Jesse:
So you assume there is no problem with AA disadvantaging whites because to think otherwise might upset your world view? I can’t tell who is a legacy admission just by looking at peoples skin but I can sure tell who the AA admission is. I find it amusing that minorities scream about racism when it hurts them but want to see it codified into law when it helps them.Report
I can’t tell who is a legacy admission just by looking at peoples skin but I can sure tell who the AA admission is.
As I always say in reference to Bob, I prefer those who wear it on their sleeves.Report
AA’s were disadvantaged in multiple ways for literally centuries. You (and I) are sitting upon so many tons of white privilege that we don’t realize. So, no, I don’t think giving a black kid an extra five points on his admission score is a bad thing, even though I’d also give the white kid five extra points over another white kid if his family is the first to go to college or he worked an average of 20 hours a week and still managed to get x GPA.
Talking about reverse discrimination these days is like complaining about the guy who starts 30 yards behind you in a 100-yd dash a second head start.Report
Edit – Talking about reverse discrimination these days is like complaining about the guy you’re facing in a 100 yard dash getting a one second head start…when he starts 30 yards behind you.Report
Jesse:
So how many centuries will reverse discrimination be required to pay for all these wrongs you want righted? Oh, and why should I have to pay taxes to fund a school system that discriminates based on race?Report
I’m not Jesse, but I’m going chime in and say “As many as it takes so that someone who’s in college and not white isn’t assumed to have gotten in because the government is cheating white people.”
https://ordinary-times.com/blog/2011/09/27/california-legislature-proposes-racial-discrimination-in-university-admissions-policy/#comment-191123Report
Todd:
That is funny b/c I was thinking that folks will not stop assuming that some folks only got in based on race until AA ends and everyone has to get in on merit alone.Report
I can’t tell who is a legacy admission just by looking at peoples skin but I can sure tell who the AA admission is.
Really? You can look at a black kid and instantly know his GPA and SAT scores?Report
Mike:
Assuming that you can read please read what I wrote before you twist it. I said the “AA admission”, which could be a black person but is not limited to them, last time I checked. Second, I didn’t mention grades but if you are an AA admission then by definition you didn’t have the grades to gain entrance on merit.Report
Also, as a side note and to show how silly the idea that the current status quo without AA is ‘unbiased’, riddle me this. Here’s two students.
Student A lives in an upper-middle-class neighborhood, goes to a school with a dozen AP classes, attends SAT prep courses multiple times during a week, and as a result, gets a 2140 on their SAT and has a 4.2 GPA.
On the other hand, Student B lives in a working class neighborhood, works 10-15 hours a week, and goes to a school with only 2 AP classes. As a result, they get a 1920 on their SAT and has a 3.7 GPA.
Who deserves the admission spot?Report
Neither. Their spot goes to the dude whose father paid for a wing of the chemical engineering building.Report
Well done.Report
And that’s totally fair, because his father is a job creator.Report
Oh, +10 points to Mike. Very well done.Report
Jesse:
Tell me which one is the left handed, mixed black/Latino lesbian and you will have the liberal’s choice.Report
Like I said, wearin’ it on your sleeve.Report
> Who deserves the admission spot?
More useful answer:
There is no way to tell from the information you’re providing.Report
Actually, that’s sort of my point.
But, if I make person A white and person B black, and person B gets in over person A, all of the sudden it’s reverse discrimination.Report
> Actually, that’s sort of my point.
Well, if the point is that “all signaling devices used as markers for college entrance are currently pretty dubious”, I’m on board with you, there.
> But, if I make person A white and person
> B black, and person B gets in over person
> A, all of the sudden it’s reverse
> discrimination.
You realize that there’s a position to be staked out here that is credible, and isn’t “it’s reverse discrimination”, right?
I can see someone saying, “All markers for admission have limited utility, so ‘deserves access to education’ is a bad assessment off of any of those markers, so adding another marker is probably a bad idea unless it’s actually a good marker.”
I can also see someone saying, “All markers for admission have limited utility, so ‘deserves access to education’ is a bad assessment off of any of those markers, so adding another marker is probably doesn’t really matter, in the grand sense.”
Either of those has more nuance than “Affirmative Action!” vs. “Reverse Racism!”Report
Player A has been participating in intramural sports since he was eight, has been shadowing coaches and studying football history for almost as long, has played in at least two competitive football leagues every year of his life, and acts as an assistant coach for the peewee teams at the local elementary school.
Player B, whose parents didn’t have time to drive him all over the state to play football, had an afterschool job, and hadn’t even touched a football until high school, played exactly three competitive games in his life.
Who deserves the football scholarship?Report
Whichever one is 6’3″, 260 and runs a 4.5 in the 40. Perhaps another example would be more helpful.Report
Yeah, root skills matter more at college level than the pros.
This is a classic example.Report
The difference is of course, football scholarships actually have definable characteristics. A good player from a crappy school will still get a scholarship even if his school is crappy if he puts up good stats.
But, nice try.Report
So academic performance doesn’t have definable characteristics, then? The SAT is meaningless? (spare me the cynical nattering about test quality; the question is whether objective measure of academic performance is possible, not whether it’s currently being done well.)
“Oh well I know lots of high scorers who failed!” Yes, does that mean that higher scorers are as likely to fail as lower scorers?
“But the lower scorer’s performance is due to external factors and not their own innate ability!” Perhaps, but aren’t they starting from a lower baseline of knowledge and ability? The higher scorer might take four years of advanced classes. The lower scorer might take one year of remedial classes, one year of average-level classes, and two years of advanced classes. Who benefited more from the college education?
“Well OBVIOUSLY the one who benefited more was the one who needed it more! ” Ah, so it’s No College Student Left Behind, then?Report
> So academic performance doesn’t have
> definable characteristics, then?
It can. How well those definable characteristics map to your proxy measurement are a different issue.
> The SAT is meaningless?
As what? If you mean, “is it meaningless as an scholastic aptitude test?”, then no. If you mean, “is it a good predictor of future academic success?”, then oh, also no.
> Yes, does that mean that higher scorers are
> as likely to fail as lower scorers?
Not precisely. Here is some baseline information. No single metric (GPA, class rank, SAT, rigor of classes taken) is very good. Aggregate measures are better, but still not very good.
> Who benefited more from the college education?
I guess that depends upon what you view as the purpose of college. If you think it ought to turn out engineers and other professionals, it sort of depends on what the two cases actually do after they graduate. If you think it ought to turn out at least decently educated voters, then you don’t really care about the guy who is succeeding already.
If you think there’s an amalgam of purposes there, you’re probably coming down on “it depends”.Report
Well, there is more to success in college and post-college than academic performance in high school. And even performance in high school is a different beast than college, where you don’t have parents there driving you to “succeed” and you need to make your own choices. Many students with overly involved parents end up majoring in something they hate. Cheating and mooching is rampant at UC Berkeley especially when you select from the population that values marks highly but haven’t learned efficient ways of managing themselves. Students driven by linear measures of success are going to be the ones bickering to turn the A into an A+ because they need it for med school. (for example)
The number of students who experience a reversal of fortunes after entering university definitely exceeds the number of AA students. People who are used to being in the top quartile of the class are suddenly shocked. I know many of these people.
Coming from an unsupportive background requires a person to develop their own sense of discipline. They might have more incentive to succeed and personal aspiration (as opposed to peer pressure).
Your fictitious scenario is based on the supposition that someone unworthy is selected ahead of someone more worthy. Is a 3.5 GPA definitely better than a 3.4? And only counting 2 years of high school (not 9 or 12)? Well it certainly is, ceteris paribus. But rarely is that the case in real life.
AA doesn’t make a large quantitative differences but makes large qualitative differences.Report
Shorter tk: “the state can’t make me mix with the coloreds!”Report