Pancakes with a Side of F*** Off
There’s something I’m not getting.
I came across what is emphatically not an earth-shaking news story. In fact, I’m not entirely sure why it’s a news story at all, except that we all like to weigh in on the ethics of other people’s actions. Not that I’m judging – I’m down with that. In fact, I will proceed to do it.
Here are the basic facts on which both parties to the dispute agree:
It was a weekend morning in a crowded diner in Portland, ME. A couple visiting from New York ordered their toddler some pancakes. The toddler, to one degree or another, was fussing or tantrumming. The pancakes came and the parents put them out of the child’s reach while they fed her pieces. The child was not calmed by the arrival of her carbohydratic bounty, and continued emitting irritating noises. The frustrated owner of the restaurant screamed at the toddler.
The parents eventually posted negative comments on the restaurant’s Facebook page. This sent the owner into a ranting response infested with F-bombs, in which she threatened that she would have been A-OK had the confrontation leapt into violence.
Here is the original post by the mom and the response in the Marcy’s diner controversy: pic.twitter.com/wWEPUqbIDs
— TVTEDDY (@TVTEDDY) July 20, 2015
Worst case scenario: let us say the child was being truly awful. Were it one of my children, I would not have waited a half an hour for a table in the first place, and then 40 minutes for pancakes. I would have left. I would have left if my child were being exceptionally whiny/loud. These parents didn’t. They said it was raining. Too bad; they should have left.
HOWEVER. On what planet is it okay for someone to react to an instance of parental bad judgment by screaming at somebody else’s toddler (as opposed to asking the parents to leave)? Not screaming at the parents (bad enough, I think), but a child under two years old? I have, on occasion, screamed at one of my own when they were toddlers. It’s an exercise in intimidation, and I feel horrible about it to this day. You win because you are big and scary. I saw the owner of the restaurant interviewed on television. She said she had perhaps shown poor judgment, but she can’t regret what she did because she shut the kid up. Well, yes. By frightening the bejesus out of her, most likely.
And then the owner’s rant is disproportionate retribution for the parental crimes, to put it mildly. She begins (as she did in the TV interview I saw) by criticizing the parents for ordering their kid three big pancakes, which is too much for a small child. Huh? Maybe one of them was planning to eat the rest. Maybe they wanted to take out leftovers. What difference could that possibly make? I think it’s supposed to illustrate the poor judgment of the parents, but it actually shows the owner’s willingness to bloviate. Then she lights into the parents viciously (“rotten child,” “stupid husband,”) and ends on a threat. A retroactive threat, but still.
If you actually think that fussing, or full-blown tantrumming, by a less-than-2-year-old signifies rottenness of said child, you have a serious empathy deficit and/or have spent zero time around children.
My confusion: when I have seen this news story, and looked at the comments of news stories, I find that most people are angry at the mother. Many are applauding the owner. Others are saying, yeah, the owner was over the top, but jeez, that mother. Apparently business at the diner has increased. I find this flummoxing. As happened to this writer, one time a stranger screamed out her car window at my kid (who was 3 or 4 at the time) for running on a sidewalk (suburban side street, no other pedestrians present). My kid was absolutely terrified and literally dropped into our driveway and tried to crawl under our car.
Am I missing something? Is the owner’s actions in screaming at the child, or in posting that rant on Facebook, remotely warranted by some insensitivity on the parents’ part?
Both parties are wrong.Report
No matter what the behavior of the child:
1) Addressing her and not her parents was inappropriate.
2) Screaming at her is grossly egregious.
3) Responding to these parents on the Facebook page with anything other than a contrite apology is impossibly unprofessional and stupid. We live not all that far from this restaurant. There is absolutely no way I would take my children there, know this about the owner.Report
Doc!
Do I appear super-pathetic if I tell you I’ve missed you? Seeing you in the Twitter window just makes it worse…I wanted to help you with your iPhone screen-orientation lock….Report
I’m going to create a Twitter account for you, damn it.Report
Me too, while you’re at it. I’m still sending the Doc FaceBook messages in response to his Tweets.Report
You are officially the oldest person here.Report
I used to text him until he “lost” my number and started FB’ing me. Maybe he was sending a hint…Report
No he isn’t. At least he does Facebook, I don’t do that mess either.Report
Hold on, gonna hit you up on Friendster.Report
I just gotta load this AOL disc and fire up my dial-up…Report
Sending you a message on Compuserve CB right now.Report
@chris
If your home phone rings, it’s probably me. I’m calling from my basement… in 1997.Report
Hit me up on my beeper. I got it from Dennis Duffy, dummy. Technology is cyclical.Report
Pretty sure I still have a MySpace account.Report
I never actually cancelled my Eternal September (Usenet) account, though it’s probably expired by nowReport
Doc Russell and I actually met in a chat room on aol. Simpsons trivia room (that’s how cool we were).Report
“And then we went to a chat room, which was the fashion at the time.”Report
I got an email when Geocities was about to close shop.Report
That’s incredibly sweet of you, actually.
I really am sorry I haven’t made more time to participate in the community here. Work has become much more busy, and it’s often harder to keep up with assignments at DB than I’d imagined. I need to think about writing something fun for this place again.
But yes, I am distressingly involved with Twitter these days. (The Better Half would ruefully concur.) I’d love to see you there!Report
@chris @russell-saunders I’ll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Twittah!Report
Both you and that Schilling fellow are perfect for Twitter, but you are also obdurate buggers.
Hey, look who I found there: https://twitter.com/gbvtweetsReport
@chris I don’t get Guided by Voices thing.Report
Glyph is a bit of a fan, so I’m using it to entice him.Report
All right, @glyph I really will write that Twitter post.
Back when I was young and loopy, my boyfriend at the time and one of my closest friends took a semester off from school to tour the country playing in a band that was opened for Guided By Voices. So I went to a bunch of shows, and I hadn’t heard about them much since.Report
What was the band called? I saw GbV…a lot, so I am wondering if I ever saw them.Report
adding an @rose-woodhouse , since I am nosy about this band.Report
@glyph Prisonshake. I think that’s what it was. I am old. They were not…great.Report
@rose-woodhouse – Looking them up, that seems likely (same geographic scene, and one of the bandmembers runs/ran a label that GbV was on)…never listened to them though.
Pulling them up on Spotify now…it’s actually not too bad.Report
I heard them practice far too many times to be fond, really.Report
The Twitter account, or the band?
Because I can maybe help with the band.
https://ordinary-times.com/blog/2013/09/10/voices/Report
Both you and that Schilling fellow are perfect for Twitter, but you are also obdurate buggers.
I thought that was why we were perfect for Twitter.Report
Is the owner certifiably crazy?
We had a crazy owner here, and her yelp responses make waaay fun reading.
(yes, she liked to yell at people in the restaurant too, though I didn’t hear of her yelling at babies).Report
Glad to know that some people react this way. I was discouraged by the increased business.Report
Everything @russell-saunders said here is entirely correct.
Naturally, I will bloviate on, in a few different, semi-related directions…
1.) I was on a plane once that had a baby on it who was essentially silent the entire trip. Upon landing and taxiing, she began to cry. We were stuck on the runway for a few minutes and eventually someone piped up with, “Will someone quiet that baby?!” said with all the attitude in the world. Someone else responded, “She’s a baby. What’s your excuse?” Nailed it. Far too often we tolerate behavior from adults that we wouldn’t tolerate from children. Which is 100000% ass backwards. The owner’s issue with the child was, presumably, that she could not control her emotions and was causing a disturbance. And he shows her how inappropriate this was by… losing control of his emotions and causing a disturbance? Well then…
2.) I recently lost my temper with Mayo, raising my voice even beyond the “big voice” I sometimes ned to use at work. It was awful on any number of levels and being the sweetpea that he is, he seems to have forgiven me. But then later in the day, when he was yelling at me to get my attention, I said, “Mayo, I’m not going to look at you if you’re yelling.” Egg, meet face. How could I demand that of him when I yelled in order to gain his attention? This isn’t to say that it is never appropriate to raise your voice with a child, but it should be done intentionally to serve a purpose rather than as an emotional outburst.
3.) There seems to be a weird thing happening where one segment of society is increasingly thinking, “Every where is a place for children,” and another segment is increasingly thinking, “No where is a place for children.” I watched a grown ass woman, attending on her own, shush a four-year-old during the final minutes of an afternoon showing of “Inside Out” at the community owned theater. What??? And of course there was the much discussed situation of those parents who brought a small child to that impossible-to-get-a-table-at-restaurant. I don’t know quite what to make of it other than, “People are increasingly operating under the assumption that the world should cater to them.” Which is indeed alarming. All that said, a diner seems like a reasonable place for children to be and while I would hope that parents had strategies to use in response to a tantrum, anyone so bothered by a two-year-old doing two-year-old things in a place for families is probably in the wrong establishment.Report
I wasn’t there, and some parents are indeed terrible, but I am surprised by the amount of online support for the business owner, who comes across as frankly unhinged.
Also, the thirty minutes’ wait is on the family – they knew what the wait was, and they stuck it out – but the 40 minutes for pancakes (PANCAKES) is on the restaurant.
Toddler or no, you’ve got service issues at that point; once you seat me, you should be able to serve me in a reasonable amount of time; or customers of any age have a right to get irritable.Report
Story says it was a weeked morning at the dinner, so i adjust my personal feelings about how long things should take, even to get pancakes. I dont excuse the owner but ive avoided many places when i thought my kids might meltdown bc of wait times.Report
Oh, I know things get crazy at certain times, but the “crazy” should be primarily on the wait to get a table. If they tell you up front it’s going to be a half-hour to get seated, that half hour should mostly be the “difference” in total time to food from just getting seated right away, and you can adjust your plans/expectations/behavior.
Once you get seated, a properly-staffed and -run restaurant should be able to serve you in a reasonable amount of time, or else they have too many tables (or not enough staff). So to me, the forty minutes for pancakes (pancakes) indicates the restaurant may have a service problem.
I mean, in addition to yelling at little kids and threatening customers online.Report
At a hopping diner (and Pamela’s does hopping!), with every table fully seated (and a line out the door), I expect a 40 minute wait to not be totally unreasonable… on a weekend. People come in to chat, and eventually to eat.Report
Eh, again, people should be expected to linger and chat, but ideally a restaraunt should be able to have every table full, and still serve all of them adequately.
The line out the door is the queue and it can be however long it needs to be, but once you get seated on the ride, it should start moving, especially once your order is taken. 40 minutes is a long time to wait for pancakes.Report
The owners FB complains that she only has so much grill space and three pancakes takes up a lot of room. Get a bigger grill then or have fewer tables. But serving food is your business, dont’ complain when people are trying to give you money even if they are wasting it.Report
*eyeroll* that’s ridiculous. is she implying that she let other orders go ahead?
It’s a hot metal plate. If you need a bigger one, you get a bigger one. And three pancakes shouldn’t take up that much space on your griddle.Report
Depends upon the SIZE of the pancakes doesn’t it?
Yes, let’s expand the grill. We’ve done our analysis of the demo/construction time/costs and the loss of income from the closure during renovations? We’ve confirmed that there are no other issues, say with permits or grandfathering of zoning that wouldn’t get negated by this change in the store? Right…Report
Unless these are absolutely massive pancakes, an order of three should not completely fish up your ability to process other food orders.
And if they do for some reason, then perhaps you should take your Absolutely Massive Pancakes off the menu.
Or alternately, go all in and make Absolutely Massive Pancakes your only menu item.Report
See my last post. They appear to be dinner plate size. That’s pretty big. And I think it’s the case that the cook either puts three down for one order or puts one down and continues cooking other orders. He’ll go for the second option, thus the long wait for 3 pancakes.Report
So if they had three tables, each of which wanted one pancake, (or one table of three adults, each of whom wanted one pancake) it would screw their production up just as much?
That doesn’t seem like a particularly unlikely scenario or pancake-ordering payload. Which still means to me they have a problem.Report
Mmm, wait time is one of those things that you just gotta deal with on the weekend breakfast scene. At least here in Norcal. That said, you do need to let the customers know at least an estimate of time.
The owner comes across as a jerk, that is for sure.Report
Yeah, Bay Area restaurants have epic wait times.Report
I will wait (or not, as I choose) any amount of time…to be seated. That wait’s on me, so long as they gave me a reasonably-accurate estimate of wait time (most places pad, to be on the safe side, so generally if they tell you 45 minutes to be seated, it will usually be no longer than that, and often a little shorter).
But: once seated and ordered, the clock is ticking and food should come out in a reasonable time, particularly basic comfort food which requires little special prep (long or involved cooking processes) – and most breakfast food (say, pancakes…pancakes) fits that bill. It’s why people go to diners.
Otherwise, it’s likely that the establishment has either too many tables/not enough grill real estate/inadequate or unskilled cooks, servers or staff. That’s on them.Report
Wow…the owner/lunatic was complaining about people buying to much food from her. How dare they waste their money by giving it to her. Who knows why they decided to carb load their child. Anybody with the most passing knowledge of the restaurant business knows people have a million different weird tastes and food desires. That is part of the business. And don’t yell at other peoples children. Just don’t do that. I wouldn’t yell at any of my nieces or nephews children unless their parents weren’t within a mile and only if i was trying to save them from being run over by a train.Report
Yeah, yelling at the kid was completely inappropriate. No one looks good in this situation, but the owner looks much worse. Have a conversation with the adults, if they don’t take the kid outside to calm him or her down, ask them to leave, then demand that they leave. They’ll probably still leave negative feedback on your Facebook/Yelp pages, because they’re assholes, but you can reply and explain, and you’ll come out looking much better than they.
When my son was 4, a stranger, a mentally ill homeless woman well known on capmus, yelled at him at a bus stop. It was so traumatizing that he still brings it up to this day.Report
When I was a kid, we were eating at Shoney’s. The silverware came in little plastic bags, which I would pop. One time, I scared an older gentleman who was eating there, and he grabbed my by the ear and gave me a very stern reprimand. It scared me, and I did not pop the plastic anymore after that.
I did not know at the time, because they did not say anything to me, but my parents were both pretty mad at the guy.Report
You had me at “we were eating at Shoney’s.”Report
Am I the only one who does kind of want to go check this place out?Report
If you do, I hope you order a bunch of pancakes during the breakfast rush, and I hope you make a lot of noise.Report
Exactly. Or ideally someone else does that and I sit at the counter and order popcorn.Report
If I had no kids I probably would. There used to be a couple places that I frequented that exhibited Soup-Nazi-levels of service (in one greasy spoon diner, the owner and his wife would scream obscenities at each other while smoking like chimneys; in a chili-dog place, they used to get really mad if you broke any of several arcane rules of conduct there when it came to ordering and payment), and the, uh, ambiance was part of the experience/entertainment.
I probably wouldn’t go to either with my kids, though.Report
Herwig’s used to have a punishment board for corporal punishment if you failed to finish your food. And make merciless fun of you if you mispronounce an order… and talk about how they served unicorn meat…Report
I think the support for the diner owner stems from an inflated* sense that the country is overrun with bad/inconsiderate parents who only care about their special snowflake.
*Thank you internet for making everything that is petty & local a massive viral thing.Report
I think this is right. Indeed, I saw the phrase “special snowflake” several times.Report
http://www.passiveaggressivenotes.com/
Totes hilarious.Report
Sorry, i think its already been overrun.Report
Ditto.
I see it in adults too.Report
One other thing I recall encountering is an idea amongst “experts” that engaging with bad behavior in children will somehow encourage it. For instance, your toddler is having a meltdown in a public place, so taking your toddler outside & engaging with the toddler in order to defuse the tantrum is somehow giving the child what it wants/letting it win/allowing it to manipulate you.
Which might be true for a school-age child, to a certain degree*, but for a toddler? The toddler/early pre-school set are not yet capable of such blatant manipulation.
*If your engagement with the temper tantrum of a school-age child is to get the kid a new toy or an ice cream, you are doing it wrong.Report
Remind me: do you have kids?Report
One, a three year old boy.Report
Toddlers definitely act out to get attention. Mine rarely did in public, but when they did, I just calmly told them we were going home right now. Sometimes I got dirty looks from people who wanted me to be more sympathetic, but that did resolve the situation without any escalation.
Bit if the kid had been waiting a damn hour for his breakfast, he’s probably just bored and hungry. Of course he’ll act unhappy. How could the parents not figure that out?Report
Toddlers act out, but not in a conscious effort to manipulate parents.Report
I disagree, they can and do.Report
“Apparently business at the diner has increased. I find this flummoxing.”
Amy’s Bakery effect in the short term, in the long term, their actual customer service gaussian distribution will determine the new equilibrium customer level.Report
I think I’d heard about Amy’s Baking company, but not that business temporarily increased. On reflection, you’re right. It’s not all that flummoxing.Report
And of course, they are now closed, because freak shows do have a limited shelf life.Report
I recall about a year and a half ago there was some controversy over a couple bringing a very small child to Alinea. The sitter flaked out at the last minute and the couple had purchased their tickets months in advance. So they brought the kid, because you can’t leave the kid alone and they’d already spent the money. The kid predictably but unfortunately acts out and fusses and cries because he’s a little kid. The owner responded by thereafter banning children altogether. Accolades afterwards to the restaurant for banning those annoying little brats, with a side order of public shaming for the parents.
That’s Alinea. A Michelin three-starred destination restaurant, debatably one of the finest restaurants in the United States and at least on the kinda-short list of finest in the world. Foodies get happy little foodie orgasms thinking about dining at Alinea.
Today, though, we’re talking about a diner in a touristy part of Maine serving up pancakes and other carb-er-ific breakfast fare to hungry, wet summer vacationers.
My expectations of the dining experience at a diner are substantially different than they would be at Alinea. While I would also find a fellow-diner’s fussy, crying, screaming kid annoying in the diner, it’s a long way along the spectrum towards the “stuff you’ve just gotta put up with” in the diner as compared to a fine dining restaurant.
Consequently, I’m leaning more towards Rose’s side of the issue: while the parent would have been lily-white and without blame had she stepped out of the restaurant with the yelling, fussing kid, it’s really not the place of the owner to yell at the kid herself. You don’t get to parent someone else’s kids unless they ask you to. You get to manage your restaurant.
The right thing for the diner owner to have done would be to say to the mom, “Would you mind taking your kid outside for a few minutes until she calms down?” Maybe the owner did exactly that, and the mom gave her attitude back; that’s a different story and the posts suggest that the owner was the one with the hair trigger temper.
All around interpersonal diplomacy fail, but the -5 points should go to Marcy’s Diner, not the mom. You’re a diner, not Alinea, so get over yourself already and sling the pancakes.Report
Yes, I think the fact that it’s a diner matters.
Another thing I kept reading over and over again were parents who said that their kids were raised never to behave that way. I wish parents would get less self-congratulatory about their kid’s behavior. Our oldest was exceptionally un-fussy, and we would get compliments all the time. We would take him out to pretty upscale places – not Alinea, but nothing to sneeze at – and he was lovely. One time, the chef came out to meet the 2-year-old who was so well-behaved and eating duck carpaccio instead of chicken nuggets. My middle child has only once in his whole life cried in public.
But – alas – it is not that we are such fabulous parents. We will barely take our youngest to Panera. He will wander off, make loud comments about people’s body shapes, tantrum if he is not allowed to order what he wants.
Temperament really matters.Report
I wish parents would get less self-congratulatory about their kid’s behavior.
MAKE THIS INTO A T-SHIRT.Report
“LOOK AT THIS AWESOME TSHIRT I MADE ABOUT HOW MUCH LESS SELF CONGRATULATORY I AM!”Report
How do you feel about parents who take their kids to bars?
I don’t mind when parents take their kids to a casual restaurant but there is still something very odd to me about seeing hipsterish Boho young parents take their under 1-year olds to divey bars. I see this fairly often in SF.Report
Are the kids drinking whiskey? Starting brawls? Sexually harassing the waitresses?Report
Sexually harassing the waitresses?
“Hey, pretty mama, you could feed me any time.”Report
It’s also totally normal in countless European countries.Report
@saul-degraw
Depends on the bar and the time of day. But even at the kid-friendliest bar at the ideal time of day, I still recognize I’m not in a kid place and high tail it out of there the minute one of the boys is causing any sort of problem. Plus I tip really well.Report
>>hipsterish Boho young parents take their under 1-year olds to divey bars
It definitely looks and feels weird, but it actually makes sense for <1yr kids because their needs are very predictable – eat, poop, get comforted, sleep – and the last need takes up 90% of their time. Most importantly, they can't get around on their own and are often happiest sitting in a small space. I've talked to many parents who say that they really wish they went out more up to 1-year because it's this strange period where you're getting cabin fever as a new parent, and the kid is very limited in how much havoc they can wreck.Report
Has there ever been a set of parents who didn’t experience a toddler or child having a full scale meltdown tantrum in public?
Is there a restaurant anywhere that hasn’t experienced this in one form or another?
If there are any special snowflakes here, it is the people who are unable to tolerate or endure the normal range of behaviors of families and children.
I read a wonderful essay once, and have long since lost track of the author, but it was about freaks.
It began by noting that a freak is considered something that has a abnormal trait, like curled leaves or missing or extra limbs, that usually renders it unable to exist in the normal environment, and can only be sustained in a rarefied, specially controlled environment like a hothouse flower. But freaks are a naturally occurring, normal part of the diverse range of life forms in any species.
It went on to describe how, in our desire to vanquish things that we find unpleasant or unacceptable, we slowly lose the ability to tolerate the naturally occurring broad range of forms and behaviors, and slowly narrow the acceptable range until we can only tolerate an environment which is tightly controlled and monitored. Where we all become freaks.Report
That essay sounds lovely. I just had an interaction with my oldest about the idea of freak shows – maybe it’s worth writing about.
I do think if we want to eat at a restaurant, we should expect that the presence of others may intrude upon our notice. And some of those others are small.Report
My reaction is to again refer back to the spectrum of appropriate social expectations. There’s a class of behaviors and incidents that you just have to put up with, and a class of behaviors and incidents that are socially appropriate to complain about.
The young kid having a meltdown is sometimes on the “deal with it, pink boy” end of the spectrum and sometimes on the “you shouldn’t have to put up with that” end of the spectrum. The diner, though is on the “deal with it” end, and Alinea is on the “you’re right to complain” end.
Where that line gets crossed, I don’t know exactly. About a half step up from Olive Garden, maybe.Report
Have we reached the point where even the lower classes have gotten unused to mewling children?Report
Per Dave Barry:
When is the best time to take a baby to a nice restaurant?
a) During a fire
b) On Easygoing Deaf People’s Night
c) After the baby has graduated from medical schoolReport
Yeah, I’ll tolerate some fussing. You want to time line the amount of time we should endure this crap?Report
Isn’t that the argument against institutionalizing the mentally ill? We are just trying to put them out of sight and out of mind.
What we are seeing here is two incompatible issues in democratic society and liberty. On the one hand you have a definition of liberty that says people should be able to live in their own defined communities and that could mean “We are the upper-middle class community where everyone is athletic looking and wealthy.” On the other hand, we have a general idea that segregation is a moral wrong and that diverse communities encourage compassion and respect and maybe even liking each other more.
These are incompatible. You can have one or the other but not both.Report
@burt-likko @saul-degraw
This is again where I come back to the notion of speaking less about rights or clearly delineated arguments, but a negotiated boundary by consensus.
The boundary between an acceptable level of behavior and unacceptable is different for everyone, but there is a tipping point where enough of the group can and should enforce norms.Report
I find that the sound of crying and screaming children freaks me out and makes me uncomfortable as well. IIRC there is something evolutionary about this and it is natural because we want to figure out how to get the kids to calm down. Some further observations:
1. I totally get and understand that being a parent and having children is not for everyone. I am not even sure if having kids is for myself. There seems to be a substantial number of the “child-free” crowd who thinks that they should never, ever be required to interact with children especially when the kids are in meltdown mode.
2. Related to #1, there seems to be a low-grade war going on about what spaces are kid-friendly and what spaces are not. Burt’s example of Alinea above. On the other side, I have seen parents take their young children to bars and beer gardens and breweries, and wineries. I am not sure how I feel about this. On the one hand, I can see that parents (especially youngish parents of relatively young children) are going to want to spend time out and not be chained at home. On the other hand, bars are adult places.
3. There seems to be something in human nature that makes people think “kids these days”. I have heard 19-year olds say stuff like “the problem with kids these days is that they are not taught to expect their elders like I was” with a straight face.
4. Disciplining or speaking to other people’s children seems to exist as an idea in some communities and cultures more than others. My girlfriend grew up in Asia. She told me that every adult who is a non-parent or teacher is called “Aunty” and “Uncle”. I find this rather bizarre. It does seem to turn every adult into a family-esque figure who has the right to give commands in some way. Another friend who grew up in India and now lives in LA once wrote something on facebook about how she needs to resist calling every older Indian co-worker “uncle” and “aunty”. This is a rather communal way of forming society that is not really present in the Anglo-sphere where we see families as atomized units.Report
Asia (and Japan in particular) have a much stronger idea of cultural conformity too.
An elder, any elder, reprimanding you is shameful.Report
Related to one, I once got into a heated discussion, before i had kids, with a gentlemen who took exception to a screaming child on an airplane. He was telling the kids mother that he doesn’t have kids, and so shouldn’t be expected to tolerate them. Unable to refrain from jumping to the family’s defense, I said that’s besides the point. He asked why, and I said it doesn’t matter if you have your own screaming kids, because you used to be one yourself. And everyone tolerated you.Report
Yeah exactly. That is thing. No one seems to remember when they were the screaming toddler having a meltdown. Or most people don’t. Perhaps those meltdowns are so traumatic that we forget them?Report
Other than Thriller, I can barely remember anything from before I was 32.
And you’re asking me to remember being a toddler?Report
Not even Born in the U.S.A.?Report
His wife is canadian I think but I’m pretty sure J’s a natural borm citizen.Report
So, obviously, the first kick he took was when he hit the ground.Report
Somewhat apropos, I learned the other day that my work-friend Buck’s full name is Buckner. So I made the obvious joke about not letting it go between his legs, and he had no idea what I was talking about, nor did anyone else seated near us. What the hell is wrong with young people these days?Report
I’ve made a similar joke that turns out to depend on now-archaic pop-culture references. I’ve repeated it and other people in that age bracket have had similarly quizzical, mystified, and most importantly, unamused responses.Report
You’re comparing some spy movie to the World Series?Report
I have been known to introduce myself (for larfs) as “Eric Straten – damn glad to meet you.” The youngsters just go OK and call me Eric.Report
Evolution is a tricky bastard. If it is your own kid, or even a close blood relative, you are primed to go all gooey and proudly post the products of the kid’s artistic genius on your refrigerator. In reality, having a baby is like having the worst roommate in the world move in: loud, demanding, eats your food, and doesn’t even help with the rent. And nobody–absolutely nobody!–not also a close blood relative cares about the “art.” There are other benefits besides genetic trickery, but you have to take the long view for them.
Some people, however, are not susceptible to the genetic trickery. They hold their newborn child and think “What an ugly kid!” My advice to these people is to put the kid up for adoption. Seriously. Wiping poop off butts isn’t for you, and the kid will sense it. It won’t go well for either of you.
The kicker is that you can’t tell in advance. I was not a “kid person” until I had my own. Maybe being a kid person is a positive indicator, but not being a kid person doesn’t tell you anything.Report
I dug this comment.Report
Bars and beer gardens are “adult places” why exactly? IMO, it’s because we in North America have a globally anomalous hang-up about bars being seedy and awful places.
Go to a beer garden in Germany, you’re likely to see kids. Go to a Heurige in Austria, you’re likely to see kids. Go to a village pub in England, you’re likely to see kids. Go to a cafe in France, you’re likely to see kids. As a child, I ate with my parents at all of those places except a German beer garden.
When we were in Brazil with our daughter who was then not quite two, the first time we went into a bar for lunch we were somewhat nervous we would be booted out and shamed for bringing a child to such a den of iniquity. A waiter brought over a high chair.
We’re the weird ones for thinking kids don’t belong in bars.Report
This.
I mean, there are certain bars, or certain TIMES in bars, where kids don’t belong. But in general in the rest of the world, the beer garden or pub is where a community gathers.Report
There are certain coffee shops, restaurants – heck, certain public parks – where I would be uncomfortable taking a child. In some cases it’s because I would find it difficult to maintain the place’s appropriate level of posh with a child, in others it’s because I would find it difficult to maintain the child’s appropriate level of safety in the place.
Either way that’s because of characteristics of those specific instances, not because coffee shops or restaurants or parks as a whole are not places one should take children.Report
Kids belong in bars every bit as much as loaded guns do.Report
Large swaths of the Midwest would tend to differ.Report
When my wife & I moved to WA from WI, we found it very strange the prohibition WA has on minors in bars, even when accompanied by their parents/guardians. It’s even more annoying now that we are parents, and we can’t go just sit at the bar & must wait for a table if we have Bug with us.Report
In Dusseldorf, it’s contentious that there is one beer garden that doesn’t allow children in one part of its total area (having also built a playground on another part).
http://www1.wdr.de/themen/aktuell/keine-kinder-im-biergarten-100.htmlReport
Go to a bar in Wisconsin (but I repeat myself) and you’ll see kids.Report
It always seemed to me like there’s a pretty good coarse rule set for “Should I bring my kid here?”
Is it a place you pretty much have to go to (DMV, public transit, Jiffy Lube, etc.)? Bring your kid. Nobody likes flying but we do it to get from point A to point B. Children are not exceptions. They’re people who go places just like everybody else. We all need to deal. Nobody likes anybody else in an airplane anyway.
Is it a “family friendly” place full of kids of all ages? Bring your kid. People who freak out because kids are making noise at Denny’s or McDonald’s make no sense to me. The ambient noise level is high and the feel of the place is chaotic, so what’s your complaint?
Is it a place where people are expected to be silent for an hour or more (concert, non-childrens’ movie)? Probably not great to bring a kid unless they can reliably be quiet for an hour or more. This seems like a no-brainer, but it apparently is not. For a movie, I’m not even annoyed when people bring little kids as long as they’re ready to step out as soon as they become disruptive. I only get annoyed when people think, “I paid $12 for this, so that gives me the right to ruin it for the other 300 people here.”
Is it a place where a loud conversation would disrupt people around you (fine dining restaurant, university library, etc)? Probably not great to bring your kid. At least, not if you’re not prepared to bail the moment you can’t conform to noise-making norms. The idea that I shouldn’t have to *see* a kid in one of these places is extreme and silly. But noise making norms are noise making norms, and a lot of people go to these places specifically for the environment. Disrupting that environment is not far off of spitting in somebody’s food.
There are probably plenty of gray areas, but off the top of my head, this seems like it covers the majority of cases. Am I crazy, or is it weird that there isn’t at least rough consensus on these?Report
I think there is at least rough consensus.
The thing that seems to have the most divergence is restaurants. What is “fine dining” exactly? Is “fine dining” compatible with a large group table of adults getting loud and cheerful for somebody’s birthday? Is it compatible with people who are hard of hearing so they can’t take part in a conversation unless everyone speaks up?
I’ve certainly been to restaurants that would bankrupt me if I ate there often, heard tables full of grey haired folks get right loud, and nobody seemed to be bothered by it. It’s a happy night out – Esther is 70 today. Hurrah!
But I suspect that at least a few of the people in the restaurant would be much more bothered if a child were making even half that much noise.Report
I would say that the easiest way to tell is if there is a kids menu.Report
Anyplace with a kids’ menu is clearly kid-appropriate.
I don’t agree that any place without is clearly not, if that’s what you’re saying..Report
1. People who thought too much about “child free” and formed a philosophy around it seem to want to live like a Friends-esque sitcom or something. There is something really self-indulgent about the people who really put a lot of thinking into the child free crowd.
2. My main concern about kids in bars is that they often play music loud and it might hurt the kid’s ears. As long as their isn’t overtly sexual entertainment or more importantly a chance turn towards violence, I don’t see any real problem with it. Like others noted, beer gardens are considered family spaces in Germany and Germans seem to have a good relationship towards alcohol. Turning alcohol and places that serve it into child-free spaces does more harm than good. The presence of enough kids might actually be a benefit for a bar and serve as a civilizing force.
3. People are hypocrites.
4. You do not discipline or yell at another person’s kids.Report
One of the things that was pointed out to me by my mom was that when they first got married, they had a circle of friends… and when they had kids, about 75% of the circle of friends also had kids… and that 75% became the new circle of friends and the previous 25% went off elsewhere. They were always welcome, of course, but it’s one thing to hang out with your friends who are talking about sports, politics, pop culture, shopping, whatever, and it’s another thing to hang out with your friends who are swapping stories about their kids.
People find new circles at that point.
So, with that in mind, I’ll say that I know that I am committing a postdiction fallacy here.
Ahem.
When I was a kid, grownups who got married were expected to have children. If you couldn’t make them yourself, you should adopt. People had kids. That’s what you did. You weren’t a real grownup until you actually had kids. There were all kinds of negative feedbacks in the culture to re-inforce that you should get married and have kids.
Now, it seems, the culture is catering much more to people (like me!) who don’t have kids. Kids are now seen as more of a lifestyle choice than a social obligation.
And that is going to seriously come back and bite us, as a society, in the butt.Report
@jaybird
And that is going to seriously come back and bite us, as a society, in the butt.
How so?Report
See Japan and to a lesser extent South Korea and many European countries. Societies with very low birthrates tend to suffer from a lot of problems as the average age rises. For one thing you don’t have enough people to take care of the old people, particular those that never had kids, and keep the economy running and growing. Old age might be less deliberating in the present than in the past but its still plenty deliberating and most people lose the ability to take care of themselves at some point if they live long enough.
Low birth rates societies also seem self indulgent in ways that might not be safe or even dangerous. Monogamous societies were able to out compete polygamous societies because they were more productive and disciplined. They also had fewer social problems because monogamy gave more adult men a stake in the system rather than leaving them permanent bachelors. I’m wonder if more conservative societies could overwhelm the liberal ones.Report
Low birthrates AND low immigration, right? We may have one, but not the other. Yet, anyway.Report
Our immigration is overwhelmingly unskilled labor. This may be useful for stuff like the upcoming need for domestic help, but we’ll also find that the whole pay-go system of Social Security will run into problems not only for the ratio of workers to retirees getting checks but the fact that it’s a lot easier to collect the money for those retirees by skimming off of the top of the paychecks of skilled labor than of unskilled labor.
Yesterday, NPR was talking about how Social Security was going to run into serious financial problems starting the year I hit 63.
I admit to having found that really, really funny.Report
The liberal answer is tax the rich bc they’ll always have money.Report
There are very complicated reasons why kids are seen as a lifestyle choice rather than a social obligation and most of these reasons are good things from liberal, libertarian, or leftist stance. The big reason is that kids are no longer an economic and political necessity. For most of human history, kids were economically and politically important. They provided labor for their parents and a way to cement alliances through marriage if you were high status enough to need that. Kids who survived into adulthood were also the only form of security against old age for most people because very few adults would ever earn enough to pay for other people to take care of them. These things have been less and less true since the 19th century. The growth of non-hereditary government and business made kids less necessary for marriage alliances. Even in non-democratic countries, kids aren’t really politically necessary these days with the exception of North Korea. The advances in the economy and the welfare state made it possible for more people to take care of themselves without kids barring some really unfortunate situations.
Feminism also made kids less of a social obligation. An important part of women’s liberation was to free women from the chains of domesticity that previously bound them. Women are freer now to live as they please in large parts of the world than they ever were previously. This is a very good thing but it makes kids a lifestyle choice rather than a social obligation. Most women are going to want fewer kids if they have any say in it. Wealthy societies with low risks of infant mortality tended towards fewer children before feminism had any successes in the first place because kids were became an expense rather than a source of wealth because of the factors listed above.
Contraceptives and abortion make fun, PIV heterosexual sex without the risk of pregnancy easy. This again turns kids into a lifestyle choice rather than a social expectation.
The only way to turn kids into a social expectation is to really turn back the clock and re-institute many ideas and practices that most people on Ordinary Times would regard as morally monstrous regardless of where we fell on the political spectrum. It would also require a lot of economic destruction and a lowering a living standards so that kids are economically, politically, and socially necessary.
It isn’t going to happen.Report
@leeesq
@jaybird
At the risk of, once again, exposing myself as one of the less-intellectual members of the site who gleans most of his insights from pop culture, there was a storyline in the Battlestar Galactica reboot that sort of dealt with some threads we’ve discussed around here recently.
At one point, President Roslin (previously presented as probably the equivalent of a liberal Democrat in the show’s universe) makes the decision to outlaw abortion amongst the tiny band of humanity’s remnants currently fleeing across the galaxy on the run from genocidal robots.
This is a decision which goes directly against her personal feelings and prior political stances; yet in her estimation, the question of the currently-precarious survival of the species, outweighs any individual’s right to choose for themselves.
And that got me thinking about how many of our cultural customs & beliefs w/r/t marriage, and kids, and abortion, and hetero/homosexuality probably originated, in one way or another, when we were living in much smaller tribes, and one good famine or disease outbreak (or skirmish with the next tribe over) was all it might take to wipe out our tribe forever.
In such an environment, it might make some sense to those guys to say, “get married, have kids, lots of them; and I don’t wanna see none of that gay stuff neither; we have GOT to bulk up the population. Birth control/abortion is right out.”
But now, we sort of face the opposite problem – our very *numbers* threaten us, and we have generated unimaginable (to those ancestors) amounts of wealth (with “wealth” defined as Jaybird did the other day: meaning not just “money”, but also tech and knowledge etc.)
So now, it makes sense to look around and say, “you know what, have kids, or don’t, it’s up to you; do what you want to do and love who you want to love, without worrying about progeny. Do what thou wilt.” etc.
We can afford to be more liberal – hey, maybe we can even afford to be more libertarian – because we don’t face society-wide existential threats currently (that aren’t largely related to our successes, anyway).
Now, it’s possible that a few hundred years down the line, our descendants will be on the run from genocidal robots, and at that time, they will have to make the choices that make the most sense to them, given the facts on the ground at that time.
But that is their problem, and their choice; we can only act with the facts on the ground available to us now.Report
Well, let’s see..
I find crying/screaming children to be excruciating, only exceeded by fire alarms that actually echo in my skull. They waited an hour for food-30 mins for the table and 40 mins for the food. (The pancakes are apparently very large-dinner plate size and likely have to be cooked one at a time) According to the mom, the kid had started to get antsy. Given the over all white wash tone of her column, I’m better it was near 40 minutes of the kid being antsy. The mom said she “didn’t see anyone looking at us or think we were causing a disturbance”. Maybe so. But we were on our 4th attempt to calm the kid down (once every ten minutes) when the owner asked them to leave. They didn’t. The mom claims she didn’t know who the woman telling them to leave was. Really? Didn’t ask did they? Didn’t decide that maybe they should bail? Nope, stayed right there.
Gee, I’ve known parents that pull their kids from places after 10 minutes. 40 mins? I’d have been climbing the walls, especially if I observed the parents not doing anything to calm their kid down.
Not saying the owner was right. But after sitting in a 18 hour flight with a kid kicking the back of my seat for hours and the mom not doing a damn thing, I sure as hell understand the anger, frustration, and rage.
Blame factor: Mom 90%. Owner 10%. Public Relations: Reverse that.Report
@damon
Even though I’d apportion the blame almost opposite to how you would (I’d say Owner 70% and Mom/Dad 30%…but I’d agree with your apportionment of PR fail), most of your comment really touches on how I suspect some of this went down.
I can imagine it being really busy and noisy and the parents being much worse than they portray themselves after the fact (I agree with you that it’s probably a white wash…at the very least, I don’t think we’re getting the whole story) and the owner just losing her temper. She shouldn’t have lost her temper and she certainly shouldn’t have done the online rant. But sometimes things happen. So I guess she should get out of the business or take out a huge loan and reinvest in a better establishment, as some people above seem to suggest. [ETA: /snark….in case it wasn’t clear]
On the other hand, my personal temperament probably predisposes me to see your side of the story. This:
Describes me almost to a T, especially if you add ambulances and firetruck sirens to the mix. Ugh!Report
I think @kazzy nails it up at the top, but I do want to add one thing. When my son was young, his mother and I were also young. And we took him out with us when we went out. If he started fussing while seated, one of us (we took turns) would go outside with him. If they didn’t comeback in about 10 minutes, the other paid the check and we as a family left.
People understand a screaming baby for the most part, but an ignored screaming baby only pisses people off. Whatever teachable moment you are having, don’t inflict it on others.Report
@aarondavid
Excellent point. And you and your wife’s approach shows a wisdom that seemingly belies your age. Then again, so much of good parenting is about having a plan, a backup plan, and a backup to the backup plan.
The plan is breakfast.
The backup plan is step away from the table for a few.
The bakcup to the backup is leaving if the other doesn’t return.
Of course, that is just one spoke on the wheel. You also need the backup plan for a diaper emergency, a hungrier than expected child, etc.
Now that I’m on number two, I’ve got a diaper bag that, when properly stocked, can get me and the two of them through just about anything over a 12 hour span.
However, I’m curious… given the inordinate wait, do you think the owner would have been any more gracious if they attempted to cancel their order after 20 minutes and then left? I feel like he’d have had a similar reaction.Report
I think if they had paid the check for whatever was ordered, then the owner might have whined, but she wouldn’t have any legs to stand on. Also, anyone who “sided” with her would look a fool. If they didn’t pay, then they F’ed the waitstaff and food costs along with table time are real.Report
Now that I’m on number two, I’ve got a diaper bag
Uh-huh.Report
Breakfast Is the Plan the Plan Is Lunch is one of James Tiptree Jr.’s lesser-known stories.Report
She said she had perhaps shown poor judgment, but she can’t regret what she did because she shut the kid up. Well, yes. By frightening the bejesus out of her, most likely.
And then the owner’s rant is disproportionate retribution for the parental crimes, to put it mildly.
Oh, I don’t know. It’s just one event, and the owner admits she showed poor judgment. Maybe this event will snap the kid’s parents outa whatever effed up delusion they’re living in and jump-start em on a productive path of good parenting. Like, caring for their child (and others!!) enough to proactively prevent people from yelling at them. And their kid.Report
I love reading your stuff in other places, but I get all warm and fuzzy seeing you and the doc at the league. Thanks for leaving the breadcrumbs! Great stuff 🙂 xoReport