Vaping in the Age of Regulatory Uncertainty
Last October we were expecting to hear a round of regulations that would determine the brave new frontier of vaping, but nothing came. It’s expected that it will come soon. Ordinarily, I’d fear the silence. In this case, though, I wonder if longer isn’t a little bit better. It all depends. At this point I believe the facts are on the side of less regulation and more thought out regulations will be more measured, though it seems a bit like the anti-vaping crusaders are gaining some traction.
Megan McArdle wrote a reasonably good piece on ecigarettes. In which she speaks to the fear:
As nothing but a replacement product for existing smokers, e-cigarettes seem like a public-health win. Widespread adoption by current smokers “could potentially reduce smoking deaths by more than 90 percent,” says Joel Nitzkin, a public-health physician who is a senior fellow at free-market think tank R Street in Washington.
But what if current smokers aren’t the only people who use them? What if e-cigarettes lure back people who used to smoke or attract new smokers? What if people who otherwise would have quit keep using nicotine? And perhaps the No. 1 argument: What if e-cigarettes make smoking normal again in public places, with the attendant annoyance of a neighbor or officemate blowing nicotine-laced steam everywhere?
What is really frustrating is that we don’t know. As important as anything, we don’t even know if there will be much wrong with people choosing to vape. Almost all of the anti-vaping sentiment is based on potential and hypothetical dangers. Well, it’s hard to argue with potential and hypothetical. It’s hard to argue with the notion that vaping may be dangerous, because it’s hard to prove a negative. Tests on propylene glycol, one of the chief ingredients of the eliquid, have been performed because that’s what they use for theatrical fog, and it was found to be safe. They have tested this stuff on animals saturated 24/7 for extended periods of time (eighteen months) and they found minimal consequences (reversible dehydration of the nasal and ocular areas). The head of the FDA himself has said that nicotine addicts you and tar kills you. Ecigarettes do not have tar.
I have previously expressed some skepticism of the health consequences of these things, taking the middle ground that while they’re not nearly as dangerous as the critics claim they’re probably not as safe as the advocates say. The more I’ve read, though, the more confident I am that the health threat is likely very minor to non-existent. The advocates’ claims are based on study after study after study, while the opponents claims are based on hypotheticals. Not even hypothetical models, but vague statements about what we don’t know.
Which brings us to the next argument, which is that it will prevent people from quitting smoking or quitting nicotine. In the case of the latter, if the health risks are so marginal, should we really care? In the case of the former, that could be bad, save that there is no real reason for it to be true. According to a UK study (STS140122) on cigarette, ecigarette, and NRT (nicotine replacement therapy – the gum or patch), “There is no evidence that electronic cigarettes are undermining motivation to quit or reduction in smoking prevalence.”
It goes on to say: “Use of e-cigarettes by never smokers or long-term ex-smokers is extremely rare.”
It does not provide any data on people starting with ecigarettes and moving to the regular kind, which is another concern (supported by hypotheticals). Speaking from a personal perspective, once you’re using ecigarettes and get the regular cigarettes out of your system, the latter becomes superfluous. I can quite honestly say that I have no desire to pick up a real cigarette at all. What I’m doing now isn’t just healthy, it’s more enjoyable. Vaping offers advantages that smoking can’t match. Including, I should add, the very flavoring that the anti-vaping advocates want to ban. Not to mention the ability to do it in more places, though right or wrong anti-smoking crusaders are going after that, too. They are going after a lot of the things that make vaping better than, and therefore a better alternative to, cigarettes.
In other words, due to their anti-smoking zeal, they are methodically trying to reduce incentives to take advantage of an amazing new tool to help people quit. Even if they don’t quit the vaping, they’re still ahead. Arguments otherwise assume that if they can’t vape they will quit For Real. They remind me of my father who, on finding out that I had indeed quit smoking entirely and was now vaping, wondered if I could just quit without vaping. The last eight years of my life indicate otherwise. Strongly.
And on a more personal level, by god I have found something that works for me. Not just because I don’t smoke anymore, but because it allows me the ability to continue to do the things that drew me to smoking in the first place. I may quit the ecigarettes or I may not. But I have finally found myself not having to obsess over this question. Do you know how amazing that is? A world has been lifted from my shoulders. The monkey that has been on my back for years and years is gone. At worst, replaced by something by all measures benign by comparison. It makes me want to kiss the skies. And it makes me furious at those who see this as some nefarious new threat to the public health.
Right now I am just waiting to find out how bad it’s going to be. Whether the thing that right now costs me twenty-five cents a milliliter will shoot up to seventy-five cents (a very real possibility). Whether the people I get my supply from will be allowed to remain in business. Whether I am going to have to throw everything out and start all over with an FDA-approved device. I’m concerned about the number of people out there who could take the same path as I did to recovery, but as much as anything I just want to keep doing the thing that has put more distance between me and cigarettes than I have had in over ten years. Or whether it will be made more complicated and disrupted with right-now unthinkable consequences. In the name of public health. In the name of my own well-being.
Now, having talked abstractly about regulations, I wanted to go into many of the specific proposals.
Who doesn’t want to protect children from nicotine? It’s extremely hard to take issue with the aims, no matter how harmless you tend to think that ecigarettes are. Too often these discussions break down on regulation or unregulation. I’ll confess that I do have an inclination to oppose all regulation because I’m pretty sure that when regulation comes we are going to get too much regulation. But I will instead try to focus on appropriate and inappropriate regulation, and address the suggested regulations one by one:
- Restricting Advertising to minors: The devil is in the details on this one, though to be honest I don’t care too much of all advertising is banned or banned to the extent that cigarette advertising is. Reason being, the main people I want to get a hold of these things are smokers, and smokers talk to smokers. So the best way to reach the target audience, without reaching people who otherwise wouldn’t consider it (which seems prudent, from a precautionary level) is to let the rely primarily on word-of-mouth advertising as well as signs in windows and convenience stores where smokers tend to look (and that I scarcely even noticed until I was a smoker). The only hesitation I have here is that it gives the bigger companies a huge leg up on the competition. All things being equal, I’d prefer that the industry leaders are not owned by tobacco companies. Right now there are three industry leaders and one is. If we restrict advertising, it seems very likely that the ecig companies will need the tobacco companies for their networks. I could be wrong about that, or they could be needing it anyway, so by and large I am pretty open-minded on this. Especially given the odd state of affairs that while companies can sell their product as a lifestyle product they can’t sell their product for the very thing we want people to use it for, smoking cessation. The real problem for me, though, is that “marketing to children” is interpreted to mean…
- Candy flavors: Leave them alone. Flavored cigarettes (except menthols) were banned on the basis. I have no real opinion on that. I do, however, have an opinion here: Leave them alone. The fact that there were these flavor varieties were one of the things that helped me get over the hump. It was one of the things that ecigs offered me that the analogs did not. Yes, kids like candy, but so do grownups. Kids like fruit, but so do grownups. Personally speaking, I am not as big into the flavors as a lot of people. Now, if all this is going to be is a requirement that they come with “grown up names” then I can deal with that. Blu tended to name theirs after alcohol drinks. Except you know who likes or is intrigued by alcohol? Kids. Which makes me fear that what they mean is “no flavors but menthol.” Which I can deal with, but which I don’t think would be a good thing for people trying to jump the chasm. Also, the less you make these things like regular cigarettes, the less likely the hypothetical gateway effect will occur.
- Register and pay fees: This one actually bothers me a little bit, though it is (not without reason) the least objected to by the big boys. I get my eliquid from independent sources where it’s significantly cheaper than through the maker of the ecigarettes itself. By “significantly cheaper” I mean roughly half to a third the price. I think the best way to keep prices low is to allow as much competition as possible. Lower price points on eliquid are a selling point to people who want to quit but higher prices are not a barrier to people looking up to start from scratch. The barrier to people looking to start of from scratch is the upfront cost of the equipment.
- Restricting online sales: Please no. For the same reasons as previous, except much more emphatically. I understand that there are concerns as far as age verification, but please figure them out. This isn’t the worst suggestion I’ve heard, which is to limit sales from convenience stores, but it’s probably the one that would hurt me the most. It’s the one I look at and say “If they do this wrong, in conjunction with other mis-steps, I might end up smoking again.” If you want to limit sales of the apparatus, I guess I can go along with that (though that again means a likely conglomeration under the banner of the tobacco companies) but not the liquid.
- Obtain prior approval for new products: I don’t understand the rationale behind this one other than “it seems like something we should want.” If done right, I don’t see a whole lot of harm. My only concern would be if every slight modification required thousands and thousands of dollars worth of testing or something. Otherwise, there are a lot of options out there and I’m not sure we need new and great innovations. If it’s limited to devices, it could be a positive if it prevents the upfront costs from falling too much as one would expect over time. I can also think of a lot of ways this could go wrong, however. And if it applies to eliquids, it could jack up prices seriously. (“Wait, you want to put in coconut and pineapple? You’ll have to fill out these applications…”)
- Ingredient labeling: More information is better than less information, but I see this creating problems for independent makers. This would, once again, lead to more consolidation and probably more consorting with the tobacco companies. I’d want to know more about the specifics here. I’d honestly want to know more about how onerous this would be for suppliers.
- What about nicotine-free liquid?: A lot of my above objections could be alleviated if it didn’t apply to makers of eliquid without nicotine. I could get my own nicotine and add it myself, which would be a pain but would be something I could do. It might still do some damage to the industry and would jack up prices, but I’d love some differentiation here. This partly goes to the question of “What hazards are we regulating these to prevent?” (the nicotine or the PG or it just looks too much like smoking?) and the answer to that seems to be “I don’t know, but it all just seems kind of dangerous to me.”
It is too bad, certainly the science as you present it sounds conclusively in favor of non-intervention. Alas, smoking is a cultural bugbear now and politicians are always on the prowl for some kind of feather to put in their cap so an assortment of busybodies have taken aim at ecigs. I certainly hope that good sense prevails but I sure wouldn’t bet on it.Report
The advocates’ claims are based on study after study after study, while the opponents claims are based on hypotheticals.
Sounds a lot like the same-sex parenting issue.
Out of curiosity, so feel wholly free to ignore the question, how much of your attraction/addiction to smoking/vaping is the nicotine and how much is the physical aspects of it? I never got addicted to nicotine, but I always enjoyed the little physical details of smoking, especially when I rolled my own. It was sort of ritualistic, from the crumbling of the tobacco to the rolling of the paper up to the striking of the match, the crackle of the paper as it caught fire, and that first delicious scent of burning tobacco.Report
I think it’s mostly the physical aspects. I don’t think the patch would have worked for me. Taking medication that dulled the effects of the chemicals was unsuccessful in part because I would just smoke anyway. I never took Chantix, which is supposed to not just negate the positives but make it unpleasant.
I never rolled my own. For those who like the ritual of doing that sort of thing, they’d probably have a lot of fun mixing the liquids and creating their own ejuice. Until that gets banned, as it probably will. (Well, not banned, just regulated to the point that people won’t be able to do it with the sorts of freedoms they have now.)Report
From what I observed it’s actually different for each individual. A few have no problem quitting the nicotine but staying with the rest of the experience. While others really are “hooked” on it. Smoke obviously contains other substances some people are dependent on. I know several vapers who really don’t like the taste and smell anymore and love vaping, but they still need a few smokes a day. Must be something the e-cig doesn’t provide. I for one didn’t miss anything after switching. Except for the first days: The “wake up slap” by the first cig in the morning. E-cigs don’t deliver this kick. Now I know, I might have used higher nic to compensate.
Karl Fagerström, THE expert on the topic says: Dependence on tobacco and nicotineReport
It’s kind of perfect that the photo on the FP has the subject’s eyes “censored” by black box.Report
Is that a pun on “censer?”Report
It is now!Report
Yeah, that wasn’t intentional but it did kind of work out.Report
I am so sick of these puritanical, anti-science conservatives forcing their morals down everyone’s throats.Report
Actually, IIRC the culprits behind this particular push are some liberal politicians by and large. I’d guess, however, that it’s only 50% genuine nanny busybodyness and 50% political opportunism trying to drum up accomplishments and attention.Report
You know Brandon was being sarcastic there, right?Report
Maybe he was. Even if he was it was a good opportunity to acknowledge that this particular brand of idiocy is being driven by some (misguided opportunistic) liberals.Report
I was. But now that I think about it, in the literal sense of the words, this is much more conservative than liberal. Of course, that’s true of the modern left in many ways, now that so much of the status quo is stuff they fought for.Report
I’m pretty sure that these guys will be the types of people that will be Republicans in 80 years.Report
I hope that whatever regs are issued, they turn out to be minimally annoying/disruptive for you, Will. I agree that the presumption here should weighin favor of just allowing this product to do as much as it can to help people transition away from inhaling burning plants directly into their lungs, and to ease the tensions in negotiating between smokers and non-smokers in shared spaces.
It seems hugely obvious, but at the same time, I’m not surprised that a critical mass of busybody-type parents are terrified of this as an easier pathway toward nicotine addiction for the non-addicted, in particular, kids. They need to be reasoned with, but that’s an endeavor with an established track record of very uneven success, so I hardly blame you for your dread about where this goes.
Incidentally, this kind of technology must be long-established as a THC delivery device? Or no? It would beneficial in an exactly parallel way.Report
Incidentally, this kind of technology must be long-established as a THC delivery device? Or no? It would beneficial in an exactly parallel way.
I can neither confirm nor deny that many, many years ago, while still in college, someone who isn’t me heard rumors of just such devices that worked on the same general principles (though there were certain differences). The stereotype of the lazy, dull stoner is somewhat undermined by certain ingenious engineering feats that, again, SWIM heard stories of, once upon a time.
Such devices were, at that time, not portable, as I understand it.
The advance of technology being what it is, it is safe to assume that portable devices designed for THC delivery, similar to e-cigs for nicotine, exist today.Report
Dennis Leary’s old joke was that pot doesn’t lead to other drugs, it leads to carpentry.Report
I knew some guys that about the only thing they COULDN’T turn into a bong, was another bong.Report
@chris Goddamn I miss that album. I listened to it on cassette so many times in high school that the cassette tape eventually broke.Report
I knew some guys that about the only thing they COULDN’T turn into a bong, was another bong.
Oh, that’s just silly. It’s easy to make a bong out of a bong.Report
@patrick – yeah, but, like…how do you draw the essential “bong-ness” out of an object, when that object is ALREADY a bong, man?
Think about it.Report
@mark-thompson
Two words…Report
Incidentally, this kind of technology must be long-established as a THC delivery device?
Discussing that would make a hash of things.Report
@mike-schilling — Dude! Didn’t we already establish the need for “Trigger Warning: puns”!Report
Old news: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporizer_(inhalation_device)Report
Sounds like a net win to me. I personally prefer to get my addictive stimulant in the form of a hot aromatic drink that sometimes spills and stains public places and produces a lot of cardboard cup litter. If the detrimental effects to the commons from vaping are the same or less, it sounds good to me.
If I were a restaurant owner, I might be hesitant to allow customers to blow aromatic flavored vapor around (how strong is the aroma?), or as a theater owner I might want to keep vapor out of the air where I was projecting, but it doesn’t sound like we have the same public health arguments that got government involved last time. What if vaping becomes mainstream and non-vapers become vapers? Is it worse for us than the coffee shop being so central in our culture?Report
My limited experience (I don’t smoke) has been quite positive. I highly dislike cigarette smoke and have an excellent sense of smell.
I sat across a table from an acquaintance who has switched to vaping. The exhaled steam is visible white steam for about two seconds before it dissipates. Next to the user I got a whiff of the flavor before it dissipated as well. I haven’t noticed much lingering smell and I was in what I’d consider an average room as far as ventilation goes.
I’d conclude that anyone outdoors who complains about vaping is absolutely full of it.Report
Very cool. Sounds like if it caught on like cigarette smoking, it probably wouldn’t be much trouble (until people who vape start spontaneously combusting 10 years from now because of something we don’t know about it today).
I suppose I’d be bothered by that trend primarily because of the aesthetics of it. I’m of the newer non-smoking generations, but I grew up just before the crossover where people smoked all over the place and we knew it was bad for you. So I don’t have the fond memories of enjoying smoking, but I do have a lot of crappy memories of being soaked in cigarette odor. Seeing it come back would be really weird from a visual association standpoint. If that’s the worst I can say about it, that’s pretty good.Report
I’m there with you. Going to the gay bars in the aughts meant that your clothes absolutely reeked of cigarettes when you got home and reeked of it even in the hamper (Sunday Laundry was mandatory). When they dropped the boom on bar smoking and the smokers were banished outside I was ecstatic (but alas, mostly over the bar thing).
My only complaint about vaping is to wish it had happened ten or even twenty years earlier.Report
Huh. For some reason it surprises me that there was a lot of smoking going on in gay bars, but I looked it up and it turns out that gay people—and bisexuals even more so—have unusually high rates of smoking.Report
My wife really, really hates cigarette smoke and smoking. I’ve smoked in her presence maybe ten times over the course of our marriage. While she still wants me to go outside to vape, she will sometimes come out to join me. Her father, a former smoker who hates cigarettes more than she does, did the same when I was visiting.
That’s not to say that there’s no odor. There is, but one huge thing is that there is no noticeable lingering odor at all. It’s not like cigarette smoke that just kind of gets everywhere. and casts a general odor.
The health risks of the vapor are pretty much non-existent by second-hand. Like I said in the post, they put animals in there for eighteen month stretches in unrealistically dire scenarios and the only results were temporary. There could be long term effects, but given how transient the overall effects are there doesn’t seem to be any of reason to believe so. For second-handers, at least. I could see it causing long-term problems for the vapers themselves, though there is as yet no indication that the vaping itself will.
I can actually totally understand why restaurants would want to keep it out regardless, and why customers might prefer it. Honestly, I would be really happy if it were left to individual establishments to decide. That’s unrealistic as it’s becoming increasingly clear that ultimately they will fall under the same regime as cigarettes.
Probably, because by most accounts nicotine is worse than caffeine. I suspect, however, that a 5-10% fall in the population that smokes would likely be a public health improvement even if 60% of the population vapes I think that’s why the anti-vaping folks are increasingly hanging their hats on the gateway theory.
To be uncharitable – very uncharitable – I think that there is a non-insignificant segment of the anti-smoking population that genuinely doesn’t want people deriving the pleasure that smoking or vaping brings regardless of whether or not there are actually adverse health consequences. I wouldn’t assume it true of any random anti-smoking person – or even a person who is presently skeptical about vaping – but I actually wonder how much vested interest the anti-smoking crusade industry has in doing more than minimizing consequences. Very uncharitable, I admit. And possibly wrong across-the-board. I find the difference in response from the medical community and health advocates to be actually pretty interesting.Report
Even about the professed toxicity and addictivity of nicotin on its own there are some serious scientific doubts. For starters:
How much nicotine kills a human?
Dependence on tobacco and nicotine
And even the importance of flavors was scientifically studied:
The impact of flavors variability on e-cigarette experienceReport
The real outrage here is that I can’t find a quote hysterical enough to justify speculation that the quotee has a case of the vapers.Report
How about a quote that’s vapid enough?Report
I could honestly care less if people vape, and I am utterly baffled by the resistance to it. I do get places like WA state trying to tax it, because they are losing money on tobacco taxes (even though they try to dress up the new taxes as pro-health & safety), but the utter lack of reason or evidence for those opposed…Report
Has Washington banned public vaping yet?Report
Not that I am aware off, although Seattle may have (they always seem all a-twitter to do crap like that, which is part of why I don’t live in Seattle).Report
I’m waiting to get all up in Seattle’s (or Washington’s) business when vaping bars are banned and cigar bars were explicitly legalized (but not cigarettes, because air quality).
Which is the status quo in New York with regard to hookah vs vaping, where the former is allowed but the latter no longer is.Report
Which is the status quo in New York with regard to hookah vs vaping, where the former is allowed
Huh, I thought hookahs were what got Spitzer in trouble…
(back to the well!)Report
The problem was his crossing state lines because the New York hookahs weren’t good enough for him.Report
I have nothing to say on the main subject but this frivolous observation:
I don’t like romantic comedies much, but if there were a romantic comedy called “Love in the Age of Regulatory Uncertainty” I would absolutely watch that movie.Report
I, too, would be interested in that movie.Report
There is a hilarious, somewhat similarly titled Evelyn Waugh story called Love in the Slump.Report
The antics of the ANTZ – both in America and here in Europe – fatally remind me of a movie: Idiocracy. While the jokes are often lame, the story looks increasingly realistic.Report
Make you a deal, I’ll join you at the barricades for your right to vape if you join me in my fight for easy access to hormones.Report
I honestly don’t know that much about the debate over hormone access, but my general instincts probably put me on your side of it.Report
I don’t know much either, but my first thought was to wonder what the enviro impact of these hormones could be, if made more freely available (it’s my understanding that there is some concern about the amount of hormones being excreted into the water table by users of the Pill; that, and things like PCBs that can chemically “mimic” hormones, are being eyed for negative reproductive effects in fish & frog populations).
Then I realized that the amount of pee generated by people needing these hormones, when compared to the number of users of the Pill and general environmental PCBs, would *literally* be just a drop in the bucket.
All of which is to say, my general instinct, like Will’s, would be towards increased access.Report
Argh, don’t know why I said PCB’s, meant BPA.Report
Actually @veronica-dire that would be an awesome guest-post. Letting us know what the issues are. Or is there a link to an article with a good rundown of what the legal issues and obstacles presently are?Report
Square deal. I mean, easy? Shit, I think it should be on the taxpayer’s dime, covered under Medicare (although to be fair I’m also for making Medicare a single-payer health system like Canada). I can’t imagine what it’s like to feel like you’re trapped in a body that’s the wrong sex/gender, but it seems like a severe enough situation to warrant immediate and fully-insurance-covered treatment.Report
Tests on propylene glycol…
OHHHHHHHHHH.
Thank you for explaining to me why vaping really bothers me physically; I thought it was psychosomatic. (One of my more ridiculous, though luckily not horribly severe, allergies is to propylene glycol. I’m also, fun fact, allergic to latex, Nonoxynol-9, AND most forms of glycerin. Good thing I married early, I guess.)Report
Yep. And some people do have an allergic reaction, which is noteworthy. Some vapers do and have to go with a VG solution instead of a PG solution.Report
Please note, my allergy to your vaping doesn’t mean I want it regulated. If everything I was allergic to got regulated, almost everyone would fishing hate me. Including me. Because onions taste GOOD dammit.
Anyway, this was a really good post, I was just tangentially pleased to learn something.Report
I hear ya, though allergies are still something to be considered. (I’m also glad to know for whenever we next meet.)
Feel kinda bad for @jaybird as that makes this a non-solution (or at least a more problematic one) for the whole “Think about cigarettes more than my mother” thing.Report
I’m pretty sure he thinks about them less now than he did when he was smoking….Report
True.Report
When I was smoking I didn’t *HAVE* to think about them.Report
Well, when you weren’t smoking that second, but were going to be smoking later, or had just smoked, etc, you TALKED about them a lot. Like a lot a lot. Just saying.Report
They were really pleasurable.Report
I’m not complaining. I just think you thought about them a lot more than you noticed thinking about them.
I certainly have some pleasures of that type.Report
oh, god, you’re allergic to onions? that sucks.
(hopefully you’re not superallergic)Report
Uhhh, this may be filed under TMI, but…Nonoxynol-9 allergies.
Yeah.
People really need to always do an allergy test, in the proverbial inconspicuous location, well *before* ever using condoms featuring this spermicidal product.
Don’t ask me how I know.
Just thank me, when you *don’t* feel like you’re p*ssing xenomorph blood later.Report
The worst part, she said completely hypothetically, is that they often put it in lubricants without advertising that fact. And did so even before you could use the web to search such things in the middle of the night.
Thank god (well, really quebec socialism) for 24/7 health lines staffed by nurses that advertise themselves heavily to college students. Hypothetically.Report
I recall seeing somewhere an ad or some such that stated that the non nicotine content of these things were all chemicals approved by our gov’t for use and / or considered harmless.
Should be easy to confirm. If true, I see no issues with these.Report
Considering how long smoking was common practice, and how long any health risks to it were vehemently denied by the tobacco companies, I think it’s perfectly understandable that people want to be cautious about the health risks of e-cigarettes. Because it’s a case of “you can’t unscramble eggs” – it’s a lot easier to ensure they’re regulated until we’re certain they’re non-dangerous, and then deregulate, than it is to stamp something out after we realize it has serious health consequences.Report
Up Next: Ban MILK!Report
We don’t have to take the ecig companies’ word for it.
The effects of smoking were immediate. It wasn’t a silent killer. It took its victims coughing, hacking, and wheezing the entire way. There were definitely warning signs that were missed. That doesn’t seem to be the case here. Animals have been put into rooms saturated with vapor for over a year with minimal health effects. And we know a lot more now than we did then.
All leaving aside, of course, that this is foremost a substitute for cigarettes to begin with. So the benchmark primarily is whether or not they are significantly less unhealthy than cigarettes, which they are.Report
Effects don’t have to be immediately evident, though. It can be a decade or more before we can tell if something significantly increases cancer risk. And every other form of smoking we know of does seriously increase cancer risk.
We can’t solely treat this as a substitute for cigarettes, because they’re being sold to everyone, not just smokers.Report
Vapor isn’t smoke and this isn’t smoking. We know what makes cigarettes deadly: tar. These have no tar.
While it isn’t smoking, the appeal it has to non-smokers is quite limited. The most aggressive estimates I’ve seen are that 10% of vapers are non-smokers. According to the UK report cited in the OP, non-smokers (and long-term ex-smokers) taking up vaping is “extremely rare.” We may want to keep it that way, which would be a reason to restrict advertising, but not much more than that.
And if non-smokers who pick up an ecigarette when they would otherwise pick up a cigarette, that itself would be a public health win. We can’t assume that all of them would never pick up a cigarette if vaping were unavailable as new smokers (smoke smokers) are created every day (though fortunately, at lower rates than previous).
To get back to the initial point, though, there is no smoke and there is no tar. The number of carcinogens in ejuice is a fraction (10-450 times lower) of that in tobacco products. The only tobacco in these things is extracted nicotine (and there are nicotine-free options) and the primary ingredients (PG/VG) are approved by the FDA for food. The harms of vapor are, at this point, largely theoretical. This is all something to keep an eye on, but not a good application of the precautionary principleReport
It’s not just tar that makes cigarettes deadly (joints don’t have tar, and they’re carcinogenic as well). The tar is terrible for your lungs, but they’d still be carcinogenic without it, and lung cancer is one of the big killers.
The points in your last paragraph are good ones, though.Report
@KatherineMW
Totally hypothetical unknown long term effects are the hallmark of those fearmongers that insist on promoting their ideology, when all scientific evidence contradicts their assumptions.
With this kind of reasoning you can promote the prohibition of anything at all. Take a good look at http://dhmo.org/facts.html. I checked: Those facts are listed as truthfully as a lot of facts about e-cigs are presented by the FDA etc.. With all those potential dangers it would be prudent to ban DHMO. Right?
Actually all the components of the vapor have been inhaled by people all over the world for years. Don’t you think, adverse effects from longterm exposure would have been known by now?
– propylene glycol, glycerin: Theatrical fog (disco, concerts, opera)
– food flavorings: Cooking
– nicotine: alone it can’t possibly be worse than smoking. And it has been tested excessively for years: It’s definitely NOT carcinogenic.
As Porky Pig says: That’s all, folks.
At least that should be all. But look at what some pharma firm puts additionally in their FDA approved NRT product: Quickmist vs. e-cig
Can you restict the sale of beer to those who were drinking moonshine?
Since you can’t, you want to prohibit beer, because you can’t ban moonshine.
Sounds absurd, doesn’t it?
Since you also can’t really prevent a non-smoker from trying something new, you are promoting that he will have no alternative to the classic garanteed harmful tobacco smoke.
And you are also saying that the health and general well-being of millions of current vapers and the future of billions of smokers is negligible compared the hypothtical one non-smoker who start vaping but never would have started smoking.
Look at it from this perspective and you’ll see that your good intentions really are very cynic and dehumanizing towards a vast number of people.Report
Your comparisons to beer and moonshine don’t make any sense. I’m not calling for the banning of e-cigarettes and nothing in my posts even suggests that position. You’re arguing against a position that nobody here has taken.
The discussion here is whether e-cigarettes should face the same restrictions as cigarettes or fewer restrictions, and what specific restrictions are justifiable. All I have said is that it’s understandable to want to retain similar controls to those on cigarettes in the short term until we’re clear about the health risks, given that any study done by, funded by, or involving the tobacco companies is – based on their previous actions – obviously illegitimate.Report
Oh, and I got the DHMO thing in Grade 8 science class and realized it was talking about water almost immediately. That’s really old, shallow, and overused.Report
There’s no indication that the tobacco companies have funded the applicable studies. The tobacco companies aren’t the drivers here. They’re jumpers on the bandwagon. Only one of the three major producers of ecigarettes are traditional tobacco companies. I expect that to change, but all things being equal they’d probably prefer these things didn’t exist and if these things were to actually be proven to be just as dangerous as cigarettes, that would probably benefit them. As things stand, instead of buying cigarettes from a cigarette company, I am buying juice from a guy in Florida. Further, regulating these things like tobacco would almost certainly benefit them because it would provide substantial barriers to competition and they have institutional advantages. The guy in Florida would have difficulty navigating the regulatory landscape.Report
@katherinemw
“It’s not a ban” is what the zealots and industry “friendly” politicians here in the EU keep on repeating.
But severe restrictions and “regulations” that will effectively prohibit the majority on the current market and leave only mostly useless, unsatisfying junk to be sold, works just like a ban.
That’s the situation we have here. And all in the name of health, precaution and of course “protection of the children”. What a bunch of hypocrites. So, please excuse me, if I tend to get cynical when I read these words that I have learned to associate with prohibitionistic crap talk.
Tobacco smoke is about as dangerous as the dubious moonshine (methanol) that was sold and consumed during the prohibition. E-cigs are probably less dangerous than one beer in the evening.
Well, the DHMO text really has about the same scientific value as a lot of publications by the FDA and “experts” like Glantz. Like our own german “scientific” nemesis DKFZ – German Cancer Research Center.
We are still fighting to get a reasonable regulation in the EU, that is based on science and input from us consumers, not just big industry and arrogant/ignorant ideology. It’s the European Citizens Initiative EFVI.
That’s a tough one, not just “yet another petition”: We need at least one million verified support statements from european citizens to get the ball rolling. So, if you know any EU citizens, please ask them to sign, too.Report
@norbert-zillatron This may be of interest to you: http://hitcoffee.com/file/5699/Report
I pretty much agree with the OP in its entirety. The only reason I would support prohibitive regulation is if it can be demonstrated that ecig’s cause harm. Even then, I’d be wary of many of the possible regulations.Report