Against ‘National Divorce’

Mike Coté

Mike Coté is a writer and podcaster focusing on history, Great Power rivalry, and geopolitics. He has a Master’s degree in European history, and is working on a book about the Anglo-German economic and strategic rivalry before World War I. He writes for National Review, Providence Magazine, and The Federalist, hosts the Rational Policy podcast, and can be found on Twitter @ratlpolicy.

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154 Responses

  1. Chip Daniels says:

    The idea is founded in intolerance, an outgrowth of the “stolen election” myth, stoked by years of voter fraud hysteria.

    MTG and her crowd view the majority of American citizens as lesser, unequal beings who are not entitled to share power. Any electoral victories are presumptively illegitimate. And the divorce talk is really just an expression that unless they get their way, they are entitled to resort to violence.

    All U.S. extremist mass killings in 2022 linked to far right, report says
    https://www.axios.com/2023/02/23/mass-killings-extremism-adl-report-2022Report

  2. Jaybird says:

    National Divorce is a bad idea.

    But there are worse ones.

    Personally, I think that “compromise” is a pretty good idea.Report

  3. InMD says:

    As we always say with this discussion, the divide is rural/urban, and to an increasing degree educated versus not. However I also think people underestimate the economic ramifications of walking away from big country, super power (even if waning somewhat) status. It isn’t like life would just go on, now even better than before with no one you disagree with ever having any political or cultural influence on your life.Report

    • InMD in reply to InMD says:

      Just to add to this, I think you see kind of an interesting, imperfect parallel with public sentiment and apparent recent regret around Brexit. And as I understand it their membership of the EU was a looser one due to not adopting the Euro plus various other opt-outs they’d negotiated over the years, and that’s just leaving a trading bloc, not a country. So you can get people to say they want it but that’s mostly because they don’t really appreciate what it would actually mean nor are they great judges of the credibility of promises about the outcome, to say nothing of those making them.Report

    • Michael Cain in reply to InMD says:

      What do you mean “we”, Kemosabe? As the long-time lunatic fringer on the subject here, I have always said that splitting on the current urban/rural culture basis doesn’t work. But there will be things related to climate change that require greater regional autonomy to deal with. I became convinced of it circa 2012, said in 25 years it would become a serious topic (ie, by 2037 people will be serious enough to ask about the dollar), and be ripe to happen in 50 years (2062).

      There’s nothing to stop a Euro-in-reverse. Both/all parts keep the dollar, along with a joint central bank that worries about it. Separation on other grounds — eg, the West focused purely on fire, drought, renewable resources while the Southeast wants policy that addresses more and bigger hurricanes and flooding — could still proceed.Report

      • InMD in reply to Michael Cain says:

        I know it’s your pet issue, I have just never seen how an outcome like that is remotely plausible. One of the most defensible uses of federal power is employing national resources to respond to regional disasters. The feds of course aren’t perfect but I don’t know what would lead anyone to conclude that a state or a handful of states would somehow do it better alone. In fact I’d say all indicators point the opposite direction.Report

        • Marchmaine in reply to InMD says:

          Eh, if you squint you could see a path where Federalism for realz(TM) takes shape under an amendment that creates Regional Jurisdictions as Districts of States to mitigate some of the vagaries of State Sovereignty simpliciter.

          But yes, ultimately would have to be a strange negotiated Constitutional settlement that no one really has thought through. Well, other than the Electoral College system gamers… they’ve totally thought it through.Report

  4. Philip H says:

    Interesting analysis. You left out a big factor – Red states are net economic recipients of federal dollars. This means a divorce situation would drastically impoverish the red. Not a good look me thinks.

    https://www.moneygeek.com/living/states-most-reliant-federal-government/Report

    • InMD in reply to Philip H says:

      An even more important question would be who would get to ‘keep’ the dollar. I would assume Blue America, not that anyone proposing this has really thought any of it out at the most basic levels.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

      I like how you can fiddle with the knobs on the chart there.

      But I’m not certain that I’d draw as strong a conclusion as you have. From the same link:

      7 of the 10 states most dependent on the federal government were Republican-voting, with the average red state receiving $1.05 per dollar spent.
      Twenty-nine states sent more to the federal government than they received, compared to just nine states in 2021.
      Of the states that sent more than they received, 52% were Democrat-voting and 48% were Republican-voting.
      New Mexico had the highest return on federal spending of any state ($3.69), and Delaware had the lowest ($0.32).

      That third bullet point was interesting. Of the states that send more than they receive, you’ve got pretty much parity. An odd number of states with blue having the tie-breaker.Report

      • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

        Based on the methodology they reported (which was thin on the details) I’m almost wondering if the analysis isn’t essentially one of where retirees and/or poorer people live. They say they cut out Medicare but not SS or Medicaid.Report

      • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

        That’s not the only one reaching that conclusion.

        https://www.tampabay.com/opinion/2022/01/22/blue-states-pay-more-than-their-fair-share-here-are-the-receipts-column/

        For example, Mississippi received $2.07 for every tax dollar it sends to Washington, Kentucky $2.89, Virginia $2.24, West Virginia $2.15, Mississippi $2.09, Alaska $2.07 and South Carolina $1.71. Florida, a Republican state, received $1.24 for every dollar it paid in federal taxes.

        Per capita GDP is 29 percent higher in Democratic-led states. In 2020, Donald Trump carried 2,497 counties across the country that together generate 29 percent of the country’s GDP, according to the Brookings Institution. President Joe Biden won just 477 counties, but together they generate 71 percent of GDP.

        Report

        • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

          We should establish a norm that says something like “if you consume more than you produce, there will be expectations for you that we don’t have for net producers.”Report

          • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

            Who has “expectations” about the red states sucking at the blue state tit? To the extent most of us expect anything, we expect them to continue taking the money and whining. We just get to point and laugh. And continue to give them the money.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

              I’ve seen some folks explain that red states should “STFU” about pretty much anything until they get their own houses in order.

              I’m surprised that you have not seen that sort of thing.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                I’ve seen it too. You can find “some folks” who say pretty much anything. If you have a problem with them, take it up with them.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to CJColucci says:

                I was. That’s why I said We should establish a norm that says something like “if you consume more than you produce, there will be expectations for you that we don’t have for net producers.”

                I figured that anybody who sees the significant difference between consumption from the collective and production for the collective could speak up about how people who need stuff should be treated with as much dignity as people who give them stuff.

                Or, I suppose, people could point out that, hey, they can say what they want and whine and we get to point and laugh at them.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

                testReport

      • Marchmaine in reply to Jaybird says:

        Watch food, water, natural resource prices rise to normalize the equilibrium. A lot of folks underappreciate how Fed Policies are written to protect low prices for natural resources that benefit high density ‘Blue’ States/Regions disproportionately. Technically it *is* a benefit of Union.

        Which is just to say, the system we have is the system that we want. Change the system and other changes will happen too. Reminds me little bit about when we apply assumptions about how voting works now and how it would be the same if you change all the rules around apportionment and such.

        Twiddling nobs supposes we know where all the nobs/levers are, and what they do… which we don’t, entirely.

        In the end, as everyone says, there’s no model for separation; I remember Vermont making a case in the 90s and remember thinking, I already thought they’d left.Report

        • North in reply to Marchmaine says:

          Yes, likewise watch the astronomical increase in cost to maintain utility and road access for rural red state areas*. The subsidies go every which way. Cheaper food and inputs for urban high density population areas, subsidized electrification and transport for rural and near rural areas.
          I once sat in on a conversation in which some rural types were waxing eloquent about how we need to eliminate the transfers from virtuous rural towns to the godless cities and the treasurer for one of those little rural towns was like “Umm we don’t send money to the cities- they send money to us.”

          *Industrially and agriculturally necessary roads for companies would, of course, easily be maintained by the relevant corporations but all the rest of the roads? That’d be on the rural residents entirely.Report

  5. Brent F says:

    I think your legal analysis falls short that unilateral seccession is illegal under American law. Which is also how it works internationally absent decolonization and genocide.

    Secession by consent with the Federal government would be entirely kosher though. National divorce on those terms would be just like Czechia and Slovakia.Report

  6. Slade the Leveller says:

    This article should be one of the posts with no comments below it. Discussing an idea proposed by back bencher red state congressmen and conservative political pundits in search of ratings and clicks is ridiculous on its face.Report

  7. Actually nothing she said was illegal or unconstitutional… a lot of misinformation being shared .. here are the ACTUAL facts about the law. https://www.youtube.com/live/ILx8uhymFMU?feature=shareReport

  8. Pinky says:

    Would this work?

    An Amendment –

    A state or territory may secede from the Union under conditions set forth by the jurisdiction’s constitution, following two consecutive elections coincident with presidential elections showing support for secession by a minimum of 60% of the votes cast. The governor of the jurisdiction may then present a notice of secession within 30 days of the second election. The jurisdiction will forfeit its electoral votes in that election.

    Upon presentation of a notice of secession, the jurisdiction will assume an amount of federal debt according to its population. Residents of the jurisdiction will maintain United States citizenship for one year. The jurisdiction will maintain full military alliance with the United States for twenty-five years, bearing a tax burden according to its population.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

      That’s roll on the floor funny. Good luck getting it through Congress, much less ratified.Report

    • Michael Cain in reply to Pinky says:

      Now do federal land holdings, and the set of Supreme Court rulings that the federal government can take whatever water it wants, in the western states.Report

      • Pinky in reply to Michael Cain says:

        As written, it implies that the state would possess whatever is in its borders except for military bases. But if you don’t like that, you can change it.Report

        • Michael Cain in reply to Pinky says:

          Transferring control of the western public lands to the states has been a non-starter for non-western Congress critters for 90 years. I don’t see them giving that up.

          The Hanford Nuclear Reservation is not a military base, but is a disaster area that Washington State can’t conceivably afford to clean up on its own. INL is nearly as bad. Large reparations are in order. New Mexico would close the WIPP in a heartbeat. There’s a bunch of eastern states who still believe they will eventually get to dump all those spent nuclear fuel casks somewhere in the West. I can make a somewhat plausible argument that the 11 contiguous western states might jump at your offer.

          I could see Colorado saying, “No more river compact obligations? The states on the downstream side of those nine agreements will have to pay for water? Where do I sign?”Report

    • Slade the Leveller in reply to Pinky says:

      What sank Scottish independence was fear of losing the state pension. I imagine losing federal benefits might be akin to that.Report

    • Pinky in reply to Pinky says:

      Philip, Michael, and Slade – I’m not recommending it or saying it’s easy. It was a thought exercise. “It’s unconstitutional” isn’t an unconquerable barrier when we have an amendment process.Report

      • Burt Likko in reply to Pinky says:

        If your point is that nothing is unconstitutional if we’re talking about amending the Constitution, then, I’ll grant it. We could amend the Constitution calling for the President to be crowned king and hereditary succession of the office via ecclesiastically-legitimated male primogeniture if there were sufficient political will to adopt Carolingian executive leadership norms in the 21st Century. You’d be laughed out of Congress for suggesting it, but it wouldn’t be illegal.

        Or is the thought exercise “What would happen if, by some miracle, we adopted this language as the 28th Amendment?” If that’s the question, then I’d predict that the US would become a North American version of the European Union within a decade, and within a decade of that, there would be the equivalents of Brexits, and within a decade of that, we’d have what are currently states going to war with one another over water. And I’ma call that “a superlatively bad idea.”Report

      • Michael Cain in reply to Pinky says:

        Not easy, indeed. There are reasons that the time frame where I thought things would break were 2037 to get serious and 2062 to finish up.Report

    • Brent F in reply to Pinky says:

      Why would you need an amendment? Secession is obviously legal if the Federal government consents, which is probably easier than an amendment, and secession negotiations between governments would be required for any practical secession process.

      This isn’t a new problem, and the American allergy to looking beyond your borders for practical precedents is showing. Your legal system isn’t that unique and special.Report

      • Pinky in reply to Brent F says:

        Our system must be unique if other countries follow the “legal if the Federal government consents” model.Report

        • Brent F in reply to Pinky says:

          That’s literally every system, including America’s.

          These aren’t new problems. You don’t have to flail around reasoning from first principles. There are practical precedents you ignore out of provincialism.Report

          • InMD in reply to Brent F says:

            Actually you’re quite wrong about this and it has nothing to do with first principles. The US constitution gives limited, enumerated powers to the federal government. This is well established constitutional law in this country.

            You would therefore need to find something written in the constitution allowing Congress to do it or else the law purporting to break up the union would be unconstitutional. Now, different jurists and political factions have different views of just how expansive the text can be, but the fact that there is complete silence on the matter of secession is pretty conclusive, and you’d therefore almost certainly need an amendment. We also once had a big war over the issue which you may have read about.

            Either way you really ought to learn something about a subject before accusing others of provincialism.Report

            • Brent F in reply to InMD says:

              Oh please.

              Adding and substracting which territory is under the jurisdiction of the national government is an ancient inherent power of a national government. That’s not something you need to write into the constitution.

              The United States has already adjusted the borders of its jurisdiction many, many times. That’s something they can do.Report

  9. Burt Likko says:

    Query if advocating secession is contrary to the Congressional oath of office. It’s certainly contradictory to the Pledge of Allegiance.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Burt Likko says:

      I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter: So help me God.

      If its unconstitutional – and I think it is, then advocating for an unconstitutional act might well be a violation.Report

      • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

        Wouldn’t advocating for a Constitutional amendment also be a violation by the same logic?Report

        • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

          No. The Constitution is designed to be amended – that’s a process baked into its articles. As amending the Constitutuion is, well, constitutional, there’s no issue.Report

            • Burt Likko in reply to Pinky says:

              …and what? Congressmember Greene could sponsor your proposed Constitutional amendment and try to gather political support for it. She might succeed, but probably would not. But there’s nothing wrong with her trying to do that. In fact, I think if she were serious about this “national divorce” idea, it is approximately what she would be doing. Has she proposed a resolution to amend the Constitution in (more or less) such a way? I think the answer is “no,” else we’d have heard of it. Hence, Slade’s point remains the most trenchant: this is not-serious talk coming from a not-serious person, and we’ve all already paid it far too much attention here.Report

            • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

              I answered the question you asked. Feel free to ask any others.Report

  10. Chip Daniels says:

    As with most of what conservatives say, this idea shouldn’t be treated as a serious proposal so much as a statement of defiance, that they refuse to accept us as equals.

    All these conservatives going on about the holocaust of the unborn, and the mutilation of children by pedophile groomers…what, we’re supposed to think they suddenly want to live peaceably alongside the murderous perverts?Report

    • Only a few actually think we’re murderous perverts. In practice the rest confine themselves to saying “Eww gross,” and living their lives peaceably. Which is all we can really ask of our differently-minded neighbors anyway, and all most of them really ask of us. Which is fine.

      AND THAT’S WHY WE DON’T NEED A NATIONAL DIVORCEReport

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Burt Likko says:

        Only a few ever have the balls to follow through on their rhetoric.

        But the vast majority can be counted on to meekly acquiesce and offer handwavy excuses for it it.

        We see it right here on this blog.

        None of the reasonable conservatives actually say that gay teachers are grooming children for sex, but we do see a lot of bland just asking questions about how perhaps firing a teacher for mentioning his husband isn’t really that bad and after all it is an understandable backlash to bad DEI.

        Do the reasonable conservatives actually think we are murderous pedophiles?

        It doesn’t matter because they can be counted on to defend those who act as if we are.Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.G._%26_G.R._Harris_Funeral_Homes_Inc._v._Equal_Employment_Opportunity_Commission

          One assumes that if you can’t fire someone for being gay then you can’t fire them for mentioning they’re married.

          And I can’t remember anyone defending this sort of thing.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

            It is against the law now for a teacher in Florida to mention their sexual orientation.
            And there are plenty of prominent conservatives who are telling us that LGBTQ people are perverse and sick, and pose a threat to children.

            And there are plenty of people trying to tell us that this isn’t really that bad and perhaps its an understandable backlash to bad DEI.Report

            • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              It is against the law now for a teacher in Florida to mention their sexual orientation.

              Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age-appropriate or developmentally appropriate for students in accordance with state standards

              (NPR on the “don’t say gay” law).

              there are plenty of people trying to tell us that this isn’t really that bad

              People are claiming the hysteria doesn’t match the reality? Do tell.

              From googling “sex ed in in the US”, Most adolescents in the United States receive some form of sex education at school at least once between grades 6 and 12; many schools begin addressing some topics as early as grades 4 or 5.

              So Conservatives think it’s not a big deal that we’re not going to do sex education before we do sex education?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                The fact that a self-described “reasonable” conservative thinks that a teacher putting a picture of his husband on his desk, constitutes “sex ed” and is a fireable offense, is exactly my claim.

                From bathroom bills to making it illegal to dress in drag to bans on LGBTQ books, to Iowa Republicans introducing a bill to outlaw same sex marriage, the Republican Party has gone all in on hatred and intolerance of LGBTQ people.

                Here’s a good thread by Brynn Tannehill, a writer for The New Republic in which she describes MTG’s national divorce idea in the context of the nationwide crusade against trans and LGBTQ people.

                https://twitter.com/BrynnTannehill/status/1628420517580652551

                Her point is that they are incapable of living in peace with LGBTQ folk. Not only living in peace with them, they are not willing to even live a separate peace apart.

                Despite their talk about “returning the issue to the states” in fact they are moving to embrace nationwide bans on abortion, drag, and same sex relationships.

                And how could they not? They view these things are existential crises, as a holocaust of babies, and mutilation and perversion of children, as a “woke mind virus” that is infecting the nation.

                It is the existence of these things which they find detestable and so long as they exist anywhere, the conservatives intend to search them out and exterminate them.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                is a fireable offense, is exactly my claim.

                Link? Because my link was to the Supremes saying you can’t fire someone for being gay.

                the Republican Party has gone all in on hatred and intolerance of LGBTQ people.

                Meaning they virtue signal less and have a loony wing.

                Here’s a good thread by Brynn Tannehill, a writer for The New Republic in which she describes MTG’s national divorce idea…

                MTG is a legit loon. She got banned from her committee assignments the previous term with GOP help. It was probably a mistake to give them back but whatever. She does no actual law work and focuses on starting fires and media attention.

                Trying to claim this is the voice of the GOP is Blue nutpicking.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Dark Matter says:

                This is a better claim on where the GOP’s head is at: https://www.politico.com/news/2021/08/16/republicans-gay-marriage-wars-505041Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Data point on where the GOP’s head is at:

                Alaska Says It’s Now Legal “in Some Instances” to Discriminate Against LGBTQ Individuals

                On the advice of the state’s attorney general, Alaska’s civil rights agency quietly deleted language promising equal protections for LGBTQ Alaskans against most categories of discrimination, and it began refusing to investigate complaints.

                https://www.propublica.org/article/alaska-drops-lgbtq-discrimination-ban

                CPAC Speaker Calls for Transgenderism to Be ‘Eradicated’

                “For the good of society… transgenderism must be eradicated from public life entirely,” far-right conservative Michael Knowles said, drawing raucous applauseReport

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Alaska announced this change on election day on a twitter feed which has 31 followers. This is what you’re claiming should represent the views of the entire GOP?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Yes.

                It is a data point, along with Republicans in Iowa proposing to ban same sex marriage;

                And Texas Republicans voting to censure Republican Tony Gonzales because of his vote supporting same sex marriage;

                And that only a minority of Republicans in House and Senate support same sex marriage;

                And that the Virginia Republicans blocked an effort to formally overturn their state’s same sex marriage ban;

                If you want to say that Republican voters support same sex marriage, that is true;

                But it isn’t a deal breaker. They will happily continue to vote for candidates who want to ban it.

                My data point for that claim is you, and the rest of the Republicans on this blog.
                Did your Congressperson or Senator vote to support same sex marriage?
                If not, is that a deal breaker? Will you search out and find a Republican primary opponent who supports it?

                On the issue of the rights of LGBTQ people the vast majority of Republican voters are quislings.

                They might prefer to let LGBTQ people live in peace, but they can always be counted on to meekly turn away and acquiesce when someone oppresses them.

                They won’t speak up, or protest or demand that rights be respected.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                If you want to say that Republican voters support same sex marriage, that is true; But it isn’t a deal breaker.

                All that is true. I have one vote, I don’t vote for lunatics but after that I vote for economic growth because that’s the most good for the most people.

                Now as far as gay rights go, the good news is you’ve won. The hardest anti-gay GOP line that you can nut-pick is a 31 person twitter feed that says they’ll be enforcing pro-gay rights for employment but not for other carefully undefined issues. Given the extreme efforts to hide that, one wonders if they’ll walk it back now that it’s in the public eye.

                However if the question is whether a carefully picked 31 person twitter statement from Alaska is enough to swing my vote, the answer is no.

                They might prefer to let LGBTQ people live in peace, but they can always be counted on to meekly turn away and acquiesce when someone oppresses them.

                If a carefully hidden 31 person twitter feed in Alaska is your definition of “oppression”, then we’re right to ignore it.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                It is the attorney general of an entire state, and his civil rights division.

                But the fact that you quote their Twitter count is illustrative of my point. You are trying very hard to minimize it, to handwave it away and to get us to ignore it.

                At this point, I don’t see any difference between “I’m a bigot” and “I vote for bigots”.

                Should I?Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Did you view Obama as a bigot when he was elected? Maybe even Evil?

                Everyone you’re pointing to is significantly to First Term Obama’s Left, because back then he very publicly was against gay marriage.

                The only thing you’ve got is accusations of bigotry, but your definition of bigotry is going to be set so that Team Blue passes and Red does not.

                And if Blue has some nut do the same thing as Red, you’ll give them a pass or change your definition of what decides your vote yet again.

                Or alternatively, if Red fires the person who did that and replaces him with his predecessor (a gay, black lawyer) there’s no way you’d accept that as evidence that Red is acceptable, you’ll just go nut pick somewhere else.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                The claim here is that the GOP is moving to be against same sex marriage.
                That’s it, that’s the claim.

                Was it wrong for Obama to feel that way?
                Sure, but he isn’t in office, and no national Democrat feels the way the GOP does.

                The GOP is shifting from a passive acceptance, to embrace open hatred of LGBTQ people.

                And you have a choice.
                You can stand up and make it a dealbreaker and refuse to vote for these people, or not.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Obama was always a funny case. Although he was always very honest as politicians go, neither his supporters nor his opponents believed him on same-sex marriage. And they were right not to believe him.
                Does anyone think that if he were Governor of Illinois and the legislature were considering a same-sex marriage law he would have pushed back against it, or that he wouldn’t have signed the bill if it had passed? His stated views on the subject were transparently political and, therefore, never taken seriously. What “evolved” was not his views, but the political climate.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to CJColucci says:

                When our understanding of it changed from “choice” to “not a choice”, then it also became equiv of being left handed.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Dark Matter says:

                It — same-sex marriage — changed from “not a choice” to “choice.” Unless by “it” you’re talking about homosexuality itself. And why would you want to do that?Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to CJColucci says:

                I meant homosexuality itself.

                “Not a choice” means “can’t be spread” and “no reason to disallow marriage because they’re never going to get married to the opposite gender anyway”.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                The claim here is that the GOP is moving to be against same sex marriage.

                Your strongest link has the Alaskan gov saying they’d take a narrow reading of the Supremes on enforcing gay rights. Not overturning the Supremes, not refusing to enforce it, not even making religious claims that gay marriage isn’t a thing and trying to litigate some exceptions.

                What you need is an actual movement similar to Pro-Life trying to overturn the Supreme Court’s ruling on gay marriage.

                That would take multiple decades, but it would show the GOP’s religious wing being serious about this. They should be electing Judges based on their opposition to gay marriage. They should be imposing litmus tests.

                Without that, or anything close to that, what you’re doing is crying Wolf.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Dark Matter says:

                And if Blue has some nut do the same thing as Red, you’ll give them a pass or change your definition of what decides your vote yet again.

                Case in point. Trump’s immigration policies were “genocide”, unethical, and something to vote against or you were a racist.

                Biden continuing them gets a pass.Report

              • Jesse in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Nobody would be fired for saying they’re gay, they’d be fired for breaking the law of inserting their belief and instructing about sex to children, by mentioning they hav same-sex partner.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Jesse says:

                Sounds a lot like being fired for being gay.

                Put differently, if it works the way you’ve said then it’s against federal law and/or unconstitutional on the face of it. If it doesn’t work that way then we’re looking at hysteria.

                Which is not the same thing as it being a good law. I think there’s a lot of virtue signaling here on both sides.Report

  11. LeeEsq says:

    People who talk about national divorce are imagining the relatively neat and easy geographic divisions of the American Civil War United States rather than the more complicated census tract divisions of the former Yugoslavia. The divideReport

  12. Jaybird says:

    I saw a good take today that compared “National Divorce” to “Defund the Police”.

    “It’s the worst possible framing for what you claim you actually want!”

    The suggestion was something like “just ask for a little more Federalism on cultural issues!”

    Personally, I think that saying “that’s really dishonest, by ‘national divorce’, I mean a robust interpretation of the 10th Amendment and nobody is arguing otherwise” would be funnier but…Report

    • Jesse in reply to Jaybird says:

      Federalism on cultural issues was shot in the head at Fort Sumter and died the day the first videos of protestors being water hosed on TV.

      Why should I give a shit about the borders drawn up by politicians for political advantage hundreds of years ago when it comes to my friends, or people I know’s rights. I don’t care if only one woman in an entire state wants an abortion, she should have that right.

      Either we’re one nation, or we’re not.

      Here, I’ll be fair even – pro-gun people have just as good an argument on this.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Jesse says:

        Yeah, as much as I love comparing various cultural issues to the start of the Civil War, I was trying to avoid the whole “national divorce” framing (including the whole Civil War) thing.

        I was, instead, pointing to something more like “a little more Federalism on cultural issues”.

        Let California be California, let Massachusetts be Massachusetts, let Illinois be Illinois.

        “But people will be different! PERHAPS THEY WILL EVEN BE IMMORAL!!!”

        Yeah, they definitely will. But I prefer that to forcing immorality on the entire country when maybe we could get away with allowing states to choose to be moral here or there. Heck, maybe even let people vote with their feet!Report

        • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird says:

          No one’s forcing anyone to do anything immoral. Not being immoral is easy! You just don’t be immoral.Report

          • CJColucci in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

            Letting states be states on cultural issues was a thing in living memory. It didn’t work out well for a lot of reasons, very few of them having to do with the habits of relatively civilized states like New York, Massachusetts, and Illinois. Now almost no one wants that — some for good reasons and some for bad.

            A house divided against itself cannot stand, at least not in the long term. Anyone who disagrees with that can take it up with Abraham Lincoln, or Jesus.Report

          • Dark Matter in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

            No one’s forcing anyone to do anything immoral. Not being immoral is easy! You just don’t be immoral.

            I’m told sending my kids into good schools or making other data based decisions is immoral.

            That’s not the spin that would be used but that is a good summation the definition of “structural racism”.Report

            • Slade the Leveller in reply to Dark Matter says:

              Why do you care how other people judge your life decisions? It obviously hasn’t affected the way you’ve led your life.

              Am I a huge fan of some of the drag stuff we’ve seen on the web. No. Do I want my legislators to pass laws banning the shows? Also, no.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

                Why do you care how other people judge your life decisions?

                Oh, I don’t. I don’t expect other people to care about my (nor the gov’s) option either. However it’s a good example of people drawing lines.

                RE: Drag
                Hits the radar as adult entertainment. Locally it’s advertised as such as well. I don’t see any point in me (or the gov) getting involved.Report

              • Philip J in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Great. Now go tell that to Tennessee’s governor. And for that matter your own – he’s not far behind.Report

        • Jesse in reply to Jaybird says:

          I don’t think poor people should be forced to live under the tyranny of small, petty fiefdoms. You do.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Jesse says:

            “And that’s why I support the invasion of Iraq.”

            Jesse, I know that things are never going to be perfect. I just also know that attempts to make them so will make things worse.

            One size does *NOT* fit all. It’d be better to allow local control than to try to make the entire country as progressive as Portland or San Francisco.Report

        • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird says:

          I mean, Florida is currently passing a law allowing the kidnapping from other states of trans kids, or even kids that might possibly be allowed to have gender-affirming care, by non-custodial parents. (The law doesn’t even seem to required them to actually be getting any gender-affirming care, just that it’s a possibility.)

          It’s worth reminding people that laws allowing the kidnapping of people (Aka, the Fugitive Slave laws) from other states (The Free States) that were trying to protect those their residents (former slaves, and really any Black people the ‘slave posses’ could find and claim were runaway slaves) _from_ other states was, in fact, the actual immediate cause of the last civil war.

          But I prefer that to forcing immorality on the entire country when maybe we could get away with allowing states to choose to be moral here or there.

          So at this point I sorta feel this question is obvious, considering the actual last time this happened: Do you actually think there are moral lines the states cannot cross even with their own citizens? Do you think that slavery crosses a moral line, for example?

          I guess you would immediate point that ‘slaves can’t vote with their feet’, but saying people can vote with their feet is an _amazingly_ privileged idea. Trans people are literally, right now, attempting to vote with their feet and it is actually very difficult to uproot everything. Poor people have almost no chance of pulling it off. You realize that’s not actually a workable solution in a modern area where people have jobs and schools and health insurance and whatnot to deal with?

          Hell, a ton of young people are still living with their parents, or with roommates or whatever random housing situation they can find, and they’re doing that because they actually can’t afford anything better…they can hardly vote with their feet.Report

          • Dark Matter in reply to DavidTC says:

            Florida is currently passing a law allowing the kidnapping from other states of trans kids, or even kids that might possibly be allowed to have gender-affirming care, by non-custodial parents.

            Link? I’ve never heard of it and I’m in Florida have a kid and am getting divorced from a wife that would love to claim nonsense.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

                Blink.

                Florida Courts are going to assert custody over kids where other state’s courts have asserted custody?

                Pretty sure they can’t do that. Not don’t want to, not shouldn’t, not must not, but literally can’t. It flies in the face of what I’ve been going through with my multi-state divorce where we fight over the kid.

                Politicians writing bad laws to get into the paper. Seriously unconstitutional on the face of it.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Dark Matter says:

                I mean, I don’t know what else to expect from fascism, it doesn’t really stop at borders!

                Also maybe ask yourself what sort of news media is not covering this, because they are too busy both siding whether trans people should exist or not. When in reality, the second you decide people can’t exist in public, all you have to do is redefine who those people are to get rid of other people you don’t like.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC says:

                it doesn’t really stop at borders!

                Man, don’t you wish that we had a norm that said “despite your morality, you don’t have jurisdiction over me”?

                We should have a system where people on the other side of a given border don’t have a say in how you live your life!Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird says:

                I’m assuming you’re coming at this from a right wing viewpoint. I’m wracking my brain to come up with any attempts by the other side to govern how one leads one’s life.Report

              • I’m coming at this from the assumption that the right wing will occasionally grab the levers of power.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird says:

                As they do. What happens to those levers is what we should concern ourselves with.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

                You’re racking your brain to think of an example of the left side of the aisle trying to control one’s life? Did I read that right? (Not sarcastic phrasing; I’m just not sure I read it right.)Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Pinky says:

                You read it correctly.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

                The Left is big with “solidarity”, so anything that gets in the way of collective action tends to hit their radar as deserving to be hit with a hammer.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Such as?

                Slade was asking the same question I’ve asked a number of times, ‘What harms or infringements on personal liberty are liberals doing’?

                I can’t think of any either.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I can’t think of any either.

                First of all, notice the vastly different goal posts being set here.
                Disney’s right to free speech is being impeded by losing their ability to take homes without review.
                Walgreen being punished for not breaking the law in 20 states is nothing.

                Blue currently owns Trump’s immigration enforcement policies. Blue’s blue-only urban plantations are largely the source of police brutality. Similarly, those urban locations are largely the source of the insane housing policies which result in extremely high housing costs.

                For all three of those we’re in “both sides do it” territory, so there’s that, but that works for Walgreen/Disney too.

                Getting more Blue specific, Blue is the source of “sex is rape, no due process is allowed on accusations”. They were successful at implementing this in colleges.

                Blue’s desire for collective rights and collective outcomes infringes on individual rights. We see that most clearly with Asian students where they’re punished for being too successful academically.

                That world view should be expected to cause other problems, how does Uber change their algorithm so women make the same amount of money without stepping on individual rights?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Everyone, everywhere, without exception, wants to “have a say in how you run your life”.

                There are no exceptions even on this blog.

                So its probably better to define what the restricted activities are, and why or why not they should be permitted.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                All of us are in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

                In this case, I’d probably want to make distinctions between the stuff in the bailey (“quit smoking, take a walk after dinner”) and the stuff in the motte (“you shouldn’t drink wine, if you don’t want to have sex with people who aren’t your spouse, maybe you should interrogate that and see if it’s rooted in bigotry”).

                And so instead of running with the loosey-goosey “have a say”, I’d like to go back to something like “have jurisdiction over”.

                If someone in Colorado shoots someone else in Colorado, how much jurisdiction should California have over the incident?

                It’s easy for me to say “looks like none”.

                Even if there are multiple people in California who want to explain that, hey, maybe there are good reasons to shoot people. Or, hey, nobody but the police should have guns. Or, hey, Black Lives Matter! SAY IT! BLACK LIVES MATTER!!!

                From here, I’d be content with saying that California can run with the “wanting to have a say” all they want so long as we agree that the limits to California’s jurisdiction stop at the border.

                “What if the guy who shot the other guy was from California?”

                “Like, visiting? Or moved here two months ago? Or moved here 20 years ago?”

                “Quit avoiding the question!”

                Anyway, I do think that there are some obvious arguments for saying “your jurisdiction does not extend here” despite the fact that all of us are each others’ aunties.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                “Jurisdiction” misunderstand both the issue and the objections to it.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Explain it to me, then.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to DavidTC says:

                I mean, I don’t know what else to expect from fascism, it doesn’t really stop at borders!

                The people insisting there be no borders in this discussion thus far have mostly been on the Left; Insisting that there must be a one size fits all solution on their ethical issue.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Dark Matter says:

                But honestly, if you’re only person in an entire state who wants you to keep any custody of your kids, and you’re given that right from the federal gov, then the bulk of that state is going to be trying to have their view of reality made the federal law.

                …feels a little different when it’s you, doesn’t it?Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to DavidTC says:

                …feels a little different when it’s you, doesn’t it?

                Not really. If it gets that far my kid gets a voice in this mess.

                I need a clause in my divorce which says:

                Kid and Mom aren’t on speaking terms. If Mom gets time with the kid in the summer and the kid flatly refuses to get on the airplane, Dad doesn’t get arrested for Contempt of Court.

                According to my very good lawyer, No Judge is going to have a 16 year old arrested for breaking my Judgement of Divorce.

                If Mom and Dad fight about that issue in court, maybe Mom says Dad is putting kid up to it, then the easy way for the Judge to deal with this is to ask the kid what’s going on.

                Moving the conversation back to trans, far as I can tell we as a society don’t have a good grasp on best practices for trans youth. I’ve read that if untreated a large percentage of them become gay adults. Suicide and self harm are also issues.

                Lacking best practices for childhood problems is going to be a high voltage thing.

                One assumes divorce doesn’t make all these issues less complex.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Moving the conversation back to trans, far as I can tell we as a society don’t have a good grasp on best practices for trans youth. I’ve read that if untreated a large percentage of them become gay adults.

                That’s because you’re read right-wing nonsense. There’s absolutely no evidence of that at all. In almost all cases where transition is denied during childhood, it just…happens later.

                In fact, to address sexual orientation, a third of all trans people are not straight after transition. Which you may notice is _way_ higher than in the normal population.

                Aka, a full third of of trans people are transitioning _into_ being gay, not out of it…yes, including kids.

                That said, statistically, most people are still straight, which is, incidentally, exactly why you get most trans people denied transition looking like they are gay. It’s exactly what you would expect…if you make trans men live as women, they are, statistically speaking, still going to be attracted to women. Because they are men.

                Suicide and self harm are also issues.

                Yes, just like all queer people, trans people are at a much higher risk of suicide and self harm when society forces them to live as they are not, or attacks them for living as they are.

                Lacking best practices for childhood problems is going to be a high voltage thing.

                There ARE best practices. The best practices are therapeutic for a bit and then puberty blockers until 18. There are entire medical guidelines laid out.

                The right is entirely ignorant of them and makes up nonsense constantly, and attacks them when they are told.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to DavidTC says:

                And I think the question you really should ask yourself here: Are fascists willing to lie about the groups they are going after? And is the American media willing to play along?

                Because, you know, it’s not like we don’t have an answer to that.Report

              • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Florida courts are, generally no less conservative than the legislature. So no, I don’t expect them to stop this nonsense. DeSantis is fully intent on pushing everything he can. And he’s gonna succeed because too many people dislike Disney and don’t understand being trans. Just like other fascists his intent is to erode all our rights through others so that it’s all too far gone by the time he gets to us.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

                RE: Disney

                Thus far zero people on this forum have even attempted to defend Disney’s ability to act as the government.

                We were letting a company issue state backed bonds and gave them infinite access to Eminent Domain.

                By all means, please explain why only a fascist would want to eliminate that.

                RE: don’t understand being trans

                That’s certainly true. I’ve been raising children for 25 years. This entire field has changed massively in that time period.

                When I read the wiki on “trans youth”, there’s a lot on the troubles they face. If I focus on their care it seems bleeding edge enough that reasonable people can disagree, i.e. not a lot of research backing it.Report

              • I live in a place where special districts with taxing authority to provide various services and infrastructure are common. Disney’s case would be unusual, but not outlandish. Eg, we have a special district covering 25 square miles, with a population just over 100,000, that provides roads, water, sewage, negotiates with neighboring communities for police and fire service. For practical purposes, the HOA that encompasses the whole area is the government, along with the developer that owns the still undeveloped areas.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Michael Cain says:

                Yes, one of the frequent examples is in the context of standing up a community… although if that’s what is going on here, then Disney’s efforts to restrict or prevent voting rights doesn’t look great.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                I call bullsh!tt on any attempt to make DeSantis’ actions into a principled position on special districts.

                He made it clear he is fine with special districts (The Villages, a Republican stronghold is notoriously corrupt, and exempt from the new law) and decided to take action so as to coerce Disney into silence.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Far as I can tell, what makes “The Villages” special is a lower tax rate. They seem to be an actual arm of the gov there so there’s that. That’s a different problem than handing the gov over to a corporation.

                RE: Principled
                Clearly not.

                However it also stands out that no one can even attempt to defend Disney. Disney was way, way over the line here. And yes, that only came to DeSantis attention because they ended up on his sh!t list.

                However, removing Disney’s various abuses is an example of good government. Us getting a good look at the inside of the sausage making doesn’t change that.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                The only principle at work here is, “Is it an abuse of power to punish private entities for speech disfavored by the state?”Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                And in the news: The State of California is punishing Walgreens for following the law.

                Walgreens won’t dispense the abortion pill where it’s illegal, as it is in 20 states, California’s governor Newsom is not happy.

                https://abcnews.go.com/Health/california-governor-announces-state-business-walgreens-after-restriction/story?id=97665534

                IMHO Punishing a company for following the law is probably a much better example of “fascism” than is Florida’s.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                This is why I always ask people to clarify their broad language.

                Newsome is demanding Walgreens sell a legal product to facilitate women controlling their reproductive choices.

                DeSantis is demanding Disney stop saying things he disagrees with.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Newsome is demanding Walgreens sell a legal product…

                Abortion drugs are legal in states that have outlawed abortion? About 20 AGs disagree with you.

                But that proves my point. Blue always gets a pass. I suppose Biden’s immigration enforcement is a better example but whatever.

                On a side note, given that whoever sells those drugs into Pro-Life states will come under legal fire, they can’t have brick and morder shops nor distribution points inside those states. Ideally they’ll be located in some state with laws to facilitate this.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Can states preempt the FDA?Report

              • They can, apparently, preempt the DEA.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

                Can states preempt the FDA?

                The drugs are legal for use for abortion, abortion itself is illegal.

                We are in “can Chicago regulate gun sellers” territory except without the 2ndAM.

                A brick company probably can’t do this just because they have lots of touch points in the state in question, and especially touch points to the stage gov in question.

                They’re facilitating crimes and also trying to operate as a law abiding company. At some point their corporate officers get arrested and/or their brick companies get shut down. The state can make it painful for them to operate short of that.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Dark Matter says:

                They’re facilitating crimes and also trying to operate as a law abiding company. At some point their corporate officers get arrested and/or their brick companies get shut down. The state can make it painful for them to operate short of that.

                Pffft, try telling people here, including yourself, that, when I point out barring the manufacture of guns would, ya know, actually stop factories from making them, dropping the rate of production from ‘mass-production industrialized assembly line’ to ‘like 100 of them made in a barn’.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC says:

                It says that you have the right to own them and the right to bear them but it doesn’t say you have the right to manufacture or import them!

                See also: hormones.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird says:

                It says that you have the right to own them and the right to bear them but it doesn’t say you have the right to manufacture or import them!

                I’m pretty sure this was in a discussion about me asserting out that eventually the American people are going to snap and repeal the entire second amendment if they continue being shot up, and other people who shall remain unnamed but are actually the people I’m having this discussion with right now, seem to think that wouldn’t solve the problem of gun production and sales, so I just found it funny that it somehow became true for about hormones, which are actually a lot easier to make and smuggle!

                In fact, there’s actually a fairly brisk market in the grey-market importation of hormones for DIY hormone therapy for trans people, because the level of medical gatekeeping is already so high.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC says:

                You mean that people aren’t following the law?

                EVEN THOUGH IT WAS PASSED?!?!?

                Fund the police!Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to DavidTC says:

                seem to think that wouldn’t solve the problem of gun production and sales, so I just found it funny that it somehow became true for about hormones…

                The market for hormones is MUCH smaller, not supported by an entire criminal class, and in theory it’s possible to get them legally.

                If you’re wondering why we think the law would have limits in terms of fixing the gun issue, this is a good example in micro.

                the American people are going to snap and repeal the entire second amendment

                The amount of political+cultural support you’d need for the sea change you’re envisioning is very high. Changing the Constitution is easy compared to that.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Dark Matter says:

                The market for hormones is MUCH smaller, not supported by an entire criminal class, and in theory it’s possible to get them legally.

                The hormone thing was just me pointing out that the hypothetical bad thing Jaybird proposed for trans people is already happening, and in fact getting access to healthcare, including hormones, has _incredibly_ high barrier to trans people, and it’s so bad that a good chunk of them have to opt out of the system entirely and do what they can themselves. And it’s not just in the US, although the inaccessibility of health care in general doesn’t help here.

                It’s really fun how often that happens, when people go ‘But what if this bad thing happened to this minority’ and everyone who has been paying attention to the issue stare blankly at each other and say ‘Uh, it is? And worse?’Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to DavidTC says:

                Pffft, try telling people here, including yourself, that, when I point out barring the manufacture of guns would, ya know, actually stop factories from making them

                The good news is we’re going to see your idea in action.

                My expectation is we’ll find there is a vast difference between “stopping Walgreens from selling this” and “stopping everyone from selling this”.

                Abortion drugs is less than one percent of income to Walgreens. It’s not worth the hassle.

                What we’ll see is “specialist” shops that only sell these drugs and maybe even only sell them where it’s illegal.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Abortion drugs is less than one percent of income to Walgreens. It’s not worth the hassle.

                Fun fact that I’m sure is completely irrelevant to this topic: due to somewhat sexist assumptions in society and family structure, women are in charge of something, uh, 80% of medical decisions in a family.

                Including what pharmacy the family uses.

                Just a totally irrelevant factoid.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to DavidTC says:

                Let me guess, they also do 80% of the shopping?Report

              • Damon in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Possibly, but they DO control 80% of consumer spending……fact.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Dark Matter says:

                I have no idea what the point of this comment is, if you’re trying to assume I’m being sexist, but there are actual studies about this, and they have found that women do, indeed, make about 80% of the medical decisions for their families…and on a somewhat related note, single men are actually incredibly bad about getting medical care, which is probably the main reason it tends to fall to women where they exist.

                And women do, indeed, do a disproportional amount of _shopping_ for the family also, I’m not sure if it’s 80%, although that’s not really relevant here…what pharmacy someone uses is really more a medical decision than a ‘shopping’ consideration.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Newsome is demanding Walgreens sell a legal product to facilitate women controlling their reproductive choices.

                DeSantis is demanding Disney stop saying things he disagrees with.

                There’s actually a few other differences in this. Not only is DeSantis attacking over a free speech issue, and Newsome not, but pharmacies are actually licensed and excepted to operate in a neutral manner to provide medical care.

                That said, what California actually _could_ do is simply, duh, have a bidding process that required any company it does business with to provide such services _in all locations_.

                A requirement that would actually be legal, as opposed to just randomly cutting companies off.

                And, for the record, I am extremely opposed to the deals that Disney has with the Florida government, but I am _also_ opposed to those deals being removed because of something the corporation says. This is actually one of the reasons we should oppose deals like this…they are special exemption under the law, and thus…they are only given to people who are in bed with the government.

                And…it is entirely possible that Disney is being punished less for what they said about the bill, but that they said they were going to reassess political giving.

                So…um…what exactly do we call it if elected officials decide to make things worse for you specifically after you announce you are possibly going to contractible to their campaigns less? Well, maybe we might want to ask ourselves if the _deal_ only exists because of the cashflow in the first place. And at that point we start questioning the entire system.

                tl;dr – Government should actually state the requirements of companies they do business with, and have them compete via a fair bidding system, and if they want to include new requirement for those companies they can add them tot he bidding…and the fun thing about that is they have to lay those out in a legal, court-submittable document, not ‘I dun like them anymore so I cancel contract’.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to DavidTC says:

                A requirement that would actually be legal, as opposed to just randomly cutting companies off.

                A State can require a company to break the law in other states?

                So if you sell slaves in the South, you can be required to sell them everywhere?

                Wow, why did the South never think of just doing this, it would have resolved the entire issue right there.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Dark Matter says:

                A State can require a company to break the law in other states?

                Walgreens wouldn’t be breaking the law, everyone else is still selling those things and doing it legally. But more to the point, this isn’t a state requiring something, this is a state saying ‘we, as the state, will only do business with you if you do this thing’, AKA it’s a requirement for the bidding process for a state contract, it’s not a law. (And even here, it’s sort of a requirement, it’s just one added after the fact that arbitrarily, which is my problem with it, it should be put explicitly into the bidding process.)

                So if you sell slaves in the South, you can be required to sell them everywhere?

                Well, I guess, if you were a slave state putting out a request for a bid, I guess you could require companies to try to do that.

                I mean, it literally wouldn’t work, all this slaves they brought in would be immediately free, but it would be pretty funny to try and watch as absolutely no one bid on that contract.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to DavidTC says:

                Walgreens wouldn’t be breaking the law…

                20 State AGs disagree with you.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Dark Matter says:

                I would suggest if that actually was illegal, other pharmacies would also be saying that, but whatever, let’s assume it’s illegal.

                Then I guess Walgreens has a choice: break the law in those states where it’s illegal, withdrawal from those states where it’s illegal, or not be allowed to have any contracts with California.

                I have absolutely no problem with States boycotting doing business with specific corporate entities, as long as they can clearly lay out why they are doing this in the requirements to bid on government contracts. (Which, to be clear, California has not done here, but it could. Whereas Florida actually would not be able to.) If it’s explicitly laid out in the bid request, we can actually look at it and decide whether the government is behaving in violation of Constitution, whereas we can’t do that people just decide to do things.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Dark Matter says:

                When I read the wiki on “trans youth”, there’s a lot on the troubles they face. If I focus on their care it seems bleeding edge enough that reasonable people can disagree, i.e. not a lot of research backing it.

                No. The main medication used for puberty blockers have been used for 40 years, and when used as puberty blocker it’s usually for precocious puberty, and…that’s not actually most common uses of such medication to start with.

                Other medications are even older, and prescribe for all sort of things. These are pretty common medications with well understood side effects…in fact, they almost always are common medications that, as a _side effect_, block one of the sex hormones. (It’s actually a common point made by trans people: Literally every treatment for them was developed for cis people, most actually for the purposes of gender-affirmation..just in the direction they _started_ as.)

                Like spironolactone, which is actually a blood pressure medication, and is literally the 51st most commonly prescribed medication in the US, with 13 million users…yeah, boy, how could we possibly know if it was safe or not? Is it safe for gender-affirming care? Why don’t we just ask all the teen girls using it to get rid of acne and excessive hair growth?!

                Again, people are literally just lying about this. Or inventing all sorts of FUD about the outcomes, and completely ignoring the fact we’ve had something like _five decades_ treating such kids. I am not kidding.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to DavidTC says:

                Other medications are even older, and prescribe for all sort of things.

                The problem isn’t the age of the medications, the problem is whether it’s a good idea to accept as trans someone who hasn’t gone through puberty.

                This isn’t my field, but let’s toss some ideas out there.

                Pre-puberty children are able to make decisions about their adult sexuality and what that should look like. So if they identify themselves as trans they should start taking drugs and transition when they’re older.

                Or alternatively, they’re not able to make those sorts of decisions until they’re older (i.e. post puberty). For example, maybe their real issue is they’re gay and don’t want to face that.

                Both of those lines of thought could be true, just for different people. Far as I can tell, whether best practices default to the first or the second is still being debated.

                Let’s just quote wiki: Prospective studies have reported that gender dysphoria in children is more heavily linked to adult homosexuality than to an adult transgender identity, especially with regard to boys.[14][15][16] The studies state that the majority of children diagnosed with gender dysphoria did not desire to be the other sex by puberty, with most growing up to identify as gay, lesbian, or bisexual, with or without therapeutic intervention.[10][11][12][13][17] The studies have been used to argue for more caution or delays in socially or medically transitioning transgender youth.

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_dysphoria_in_children#PersistenceReport

              • DavidTC in reply to Dark Matter says:

                Psst: People are still lying to you. Even while telling the truth, which is impressive. Read what that says: majority of children before puberty with gender dysphoria do not desire to be the opposite sex BY PUBERTY.

                Guess when children might want to start going on puberty blockers? That’s right, it’s AT puberty. Not, weirdly, before, which makes literally no sense. In fact, technically speaking, they’re giving puberty blockers a little bit into puberty, for reasons that I don’t quite remember.

                In fact, no medical intervention is even slightly suggested for children before puberty, which, according to that paragraph is when most children who are not actually trans stop having gender dysphoria. The therapeutic intervention is merely If the child wishes, to allow them to socially transition, AKA perhaps have different names and pronouns… If they want to do that.

                And yet, we have the last sentence of that which takes the fact it has laid out carefully, and argues nonsense from it.

                In reality, a boatload of young children will experiment with their identity before puberty. A majority will not do anything. A minority, the actual trans ones, will freak the hell when the wrong puberty arrives and beg and plead for it not to happen to them.

                Those are the ones who get medical intervention, which again, just in case it’s not clear, is limited to puberty blockers until they’re 18 except for really extreme circumstances.

                And you’re about to go find a bunch of information about puberty blockers that isn’t true, so let me just preemptively point out that everything you’re going to say about them is incorrect and not backed up by any science.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to DavidTC says:

                Oh, and talk to literally anyone in the queer community or hell, talk to your daughters, and ask what it would be more acceptable socially for them to be lesbians or for them to be trans men? Which do they think would be the easier life?

                I mean this isn’t even something that needs disproving, this is just sort of basic logic, one group of people is being seized from parents, I think we can just glance at the issue and realize that no one decides to be trans to keep from being gay! (And, again, a full third of trans people are gay anyway!)Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to DavidTC says:

                talk to literally anyone in the queer community or hell, talk to your daughters

                What makes you think I don’t have any gay daughters?

                no one decides to be trans to keep from being gay!

                Far as I can tell, no one decides to be trans, gay, or for that matter, straight.

                I never decided to be straight, which suggests that it’s not really a “choice” sort of thing.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Dark Matter says:

                I didn’t say you didn’t have gay daughters, I said you could just talk to them to see how young people feel about these issues, would their life be easier being trans or gay? Just straight up pose that alternative. Hell, the question actually works better if they are gay, or even trans, although I suspect you’d already know the answer.

                But you don’t actually even need to post it to them, you can just kind of run it as a thought experiment in your head, because again, there’s a state in this country that is trying to take trans kids away from their parents, and plenty others trying to deny them healthcare, even as adults, all of which rather implies that that would be a more difficult path to walk in life, and no one’s going to choose it to keep from having to be gay.

                The placethis particular hypothetical of ‘some kids are deciding to be trans to keep from being gay’ has come from is a place called The LGB alliance, AKA a UK hate group.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to DavidTC says:

                The therapeutic intervention is merely If the child wishes, to allow them to socially transition, AKA perhaps have different names and pronouns… If they want to do that.

                And yet, we have the last sentence of that which takes the fact it has laid out carefully, and argues nonsense from it.

                BTW, and I didn’t get into this at the time: You know the actual best way to stop kids who are not trans from getting deciding to go on puberty blocks or get hormones or that sort of thing?

                Actually allowing them to socially transition before puberty and see if they truly like that, or whether it’s just a kid’s whim. They don’t like it, well, that’s the end of it.

                Meanwhile, if you put dozens of hurdles in their way, make them _fight_ to try it out…well, we all know how the sunken cost fallacy works. And we also know that teenagers are teenagers and will fight for anything being kept from them. And by that time they’re on puberty blockers and going through what is a very traumatic time of their life, trying to navigate dating and other things, had to renegotiate all their friendships, etc, etc, etc.

                Like, I don’t actually think there’s a lot of this, but, hypothetically, if there’s any point that this sort of pressure happens, it’s _teens_, who are often bullheaded idiots…which is exactly why we don’t really like them do anything irreversible, mostly just set it up where things can be postponed till adulthood…but if we actually cared about this, we’d be helping kids socially transition _earlier_, not later.

                But you see, that’s the sort of conclusion you reach if you think ‘some people are trans, some are not’, as opposed to the people trying to _ban_ this sort of thing, which is ‘literally no one is trans and we’ve decided to pretend some kids are being encouraged into it for…unknown reasons’.Report

      • Dark Matter in reply to Jesse says:

        If you are going to insist on one set of rules, then you shouldn’t be surprised if they’re not set to your liking. I strongly dislike that there are more magical thinkers than rationalists. That doesn’t change that this is current situation and it will probably be true for another century.

        If only one woman in an entire state wants an abortion and she’s given that right from the federal gov, then the bulk of that state is going to be trying to have their view of reality made the federal law.Report