There Are No Better People
One of the themes emerging from the recent civil unrest is this: you can’t say police corruption is a case of a few bad apples, because it’s obvious that the police force is rife with bad apples and even rife-r with apples that would defend, even protect the bad apples.
I tend to agree with the sentiment. It’s undeniable that there are some Actual Bad Guys who put on a uniform and walk amongst us every day, and many more who would do anything in their power to keep those deeply flawed guys and gals on the streets.*
The solution many people have to this dilemma is simply to make sure only good people get hired as police officers. It seems so easy. If some policemen are bad, let’s just hire exclusively good guys as cops instead. I mean, DUH, right? You can apply this logic to social workers, medical professionals, college professors, legislators, judges, teachers, truck drivers, journalists, Hollywood celebrities, tech workers, city planners, bureaucrats, fast food workers, the people at the DMV…hmm. Now that I come to think about it, there sure are a lot of fields overflowing with bad apples, aren’t there?
The existence of bad apples in just about every walk of life leads me to conclude that bad apples are legion – well nigh universal. After all, humans are selfish, tribalistic, xenophobic, superior, mean-spirited, and even the best of them have a nasty Puritanical streak. Believe it or not, these ubiquitous traits don’t make us inherently bad people. They simply make us human people. There is no getting around the downsides of humanity since these character traits are baked into our DNA.
You cannot find a human being who doesn’t have those tendencies lurking within them. I have them in me. You have them in you. Mother Teresa and George Washington and Francis of Assisi and Martin Luther King Jr. had them too. All human beings have these character flaws, probably because at some point in history when we were a pack of lemurs living in a tree they helped us survive in some way, or maybe they just didn’t manage to kill us all before some of us reproduced. It is not possible to educate them into nonexistence or pray them away or put warnings into the corporate handbook because these traits are innate. All we can do is mitigate them.
Because people suck, the history of humanity has been a series of terrible things happening to some people, being done by others, and these terrible things stretch across racial and philosophical lines. Google a group – any group, defined by any metric you would like – and you’ll find something terrible that people under that collective umbrella did to someone at some point in time. Yet despite being surrounded by a veritable army of scumbag psychos, a shocking number of us alive today have a higher quality of life than the richest people had only a century ago. Despite being surrounded by pathological sociopaths and gross inequality (which, hate to tell you, but we always were) many of us are pretty safe, pretty happy, and doing pretty ok for the most part, at least when compared to our historical predecessors.
How can it be that when we’re surrounded by so many bad apples, at the very same time our average quality of life is so high that people like me feel free to bitch about the smallest of inconveniences like the wording of a tweet or if the supermarket is out of particular brands of spaghetti? Shouldn’t we all be oppressed and miserable instead of fat and relatively happy, at least with the help of antidepressants, with all these Actual Bad Guys surrounding us?
According to many, no we should not. Some would say we can’t rest until the bad people are rooted out of every crevice and cranny where they nest, where other bad people cover up for them and still others continue to look the other way. Maybe even YOU looked the other way, these people would say to me, or benefited from others who averted their eyes back in olden times, and thus you need to either repent or you will be forced to repent. Because these folks would say that bad people have to be removed from society, forcibly if necessary, and then and only then can we have the world that we deserve, a world without any bad guys in it at all.
To that I would say, here’s a teaspoon, please go stop the tide.
Civilizing humanity is a lot like building a sand castle. People trying to create civilization out of the irredeemably deplorable detritus that is humanity are trying to build something precarious and fragile that is inclined to fall apart all on its own; worse still, this precarious and fragile and falling-apart thing is always under assault, whether it’s from the tide coming in or from drying out or the force of gravity or a guy running through on his way to catch a Frisbee or someone who comes along and gives it a kick just out of sheer meanness.
It takes constant vigilance to keep the sand castle of civilization erect, constant repairing of the walls and rewetting the sand and keeping a wary eye for errant feet and recalcitrant grains of sand. Even if you do it all perfectly there’s every chance the tide will still come in and wash it all away. Even if you do it all perfectly you gotta sleep sometime and you have to trust someone else to keep it going when you can’t be there. Ignoring the maintenance of your castle – like for instance you got distracted by something else for a while and didn’t keep the sand wet enough, or the person you trusted while you were catching some z’s wandered off to get a hot dog, or someone deciding your castle sucks and they want to build a better one in the same spot so yours has to be torn down – will soon mean there’s nothing left, it’s all fallen apart.
You could be the most noble sand castle builder with the purest heart and best of intentions but that doesn’t matter if forces of entropy and/or deliberate malice collude to destroy your castle. Your nobility and pure heart is meaningless if you built your castle on a weak foundation of shifting, collapsing sand. Conversely, you could be a pretty rotten person who builds and maintains a wonderful castle – a civilization that is a pretty decent place to live for many generations – for awful reasons. A person’s moral purity or lack thereof does not predict the outcome of what they’ve built, and a good thing too since humans are invariably selfish, tribalistic, xenophobic, superior, mean-spirited, and even the best of them have a nasty Puritanical streak.
You may find that a shocking statement. You may think that bad people must make bad civilizations but that simply can’t be true because all humans are humans are selfish, tribalistic, xenophobic, superior, mean-spirited, and even the best of them have a nasty Puritanical streak. Yet it is inarguable that some of our civilizations and subcultures within civilizations have been better than others, even when they were governed by absolutely monstrous people who should have their statues torn down. As much as you personally may hate America, as true as it is that America all too often has not lived up to her noble ideals, and regardless of the absolute a-holes who have risen to positions of leadership within her borders both geographic and historical, living in America 2020 is better than living under communism or under a king or a banana republic dictator or in the lawless anarchy of the Old West or even in the respectable parts of America in 1820 or 1920.
Somehow bad people made a good thing even though other bad people made bad things and we should all of us fight tooth and nail not with each other, but to maintain what we have here, even though the good thing isn’t as perfect as some of us think it should be in our imaginations.
A buzzword we’ve been hearing a lot is “systemic”, meaning that there are systemic problems that cause human suffering and inequality. I completely agree with this. I believe well-designed, well-implemented, and well-maintained systems can help to keep people’s darker impulses in check, and poorly designed, implemented, and maintained systems exacerbate them. Bad systems that rely on human beings to be holy angels or impartial robots fail time after time because bad systems enable and even encourage bad behavior. You can’t just put good people into a bad system if it’s the system itself coupled with human nature that is encouraging good people to behave badly. Any solution that calls for “first, we need to get rid of the bad people” is doomed from the outset. Any solution that calls for “first, we need to get rid of the bad people” is starting off with a witch hunt and things rarely improve with that origin story.
Even a good person put into a bad situation without the support, guidance, and limitation of some sort of system, forced to handle circumstances that are too much for them to bear, will revert to being selfish, tribalistic, xenophobic, superior, mean-spirited, and Puritanical. We have seen it happen again and again. We’ve seen it happen in the schools, we’ve seen it in our workplaces, we’ve seen it in the halls of government and in police on the streets and in soldiers in Vietnam. Because beyond our obvious human moral failings we all share, people get tired. They get distracted. They get embarrassed, ashamed, humiliated. They get scared. They get angry. Hungry. Sick. Cold. Hurt. Old and senile. They lash out when they’re attacked and many times they go too far. I love my children more than anything on this Earth and I have yelled at them over nothing, punished them unfairly, treated them unjustly when I was tired and had low blood sugar and was ticked off about a fight I had online. How, if a good mother can lash out at her own beloved children when she’s in a pissy mood, can we can expect human beings in life-threatening situations to never get things wrong when in direct confrontation with someone who they don’t care about at all, have reasons to distrust, who may even be trying to kill them?
We can’t. It’s a ludicrous expectation to expect perfection from law enforcement any more than we should expect that doctors won’t ever accidentally make mistakes, even kill people. (Doctors actually kill far, far more people than police officers do, oftentimes due in no small part to racism, classism, ageism, and sexism, not to mention gross negligence or outright malice.) All those who aspire to be empathetic should take a moment and attempt to understand what it must be like to be a police officer, to go out every day knowing you may be killed, but willing to do that because you believe in what you’re doing, only to be met with no appreciation and even outright hatred. Imagine having this experience within a system that simultaneously fails to give the necessary support while simultaneously not holding cops accountable for bad behavior, even covering it up on their behalf. All those who aspire to be empathetic should take a moment to marvel at how, despite all the mixed messages and impossible expectations, police officers so often maintain a level of self-control that most of us sorely lack in the face of great temptation, knowing that if they don’t make their case a bad guy may walk free.
Law enforcement officers SHOULD aim at perfection, obviously they should. But it is understandable that sometimes they fall short, just as it is sometimes understandable that a person – even an otherwise good person – might run from the police when frightened, or that a person – even an otherwise good person – who had lived a life of chronic deprivation might turn to a life of crime.
It is equally understandable that ones’ brothers-in-arms would sometimes try to cover it up when one of us succumbs to a raging case of humanity. For all the human vices we suffer from, at times we suffer just as much from our virtues, and loyalty is a virtue that can be a corrupting force. Hollywood protected its own. The education system protects its own. The military protects its own. Politicians protect their own. Medical professionals protect their own. The Catholic church protected and still somehow, shockingly, protects their own. The far left absolutely protects its own, mitigating and minimizing and justifying bad behavior, even violence, done by those under their umbrella. Pretty much the only time any larger organization or movement criticizes their own members even for gross and egregious antisocial behavior is when it’s cool to do so or when the eye of the public is upon them.
The thin blue line is not the mark of the beast, it’s the sign of flawed and fallible, yet still loyal human beings put into very difficult situations in a badly-designed system.
The chilling and monstrous thing about Derek Chauvin was how calm and methodical he was. This was not a man out of control, afraid, upset, lashing out and going too far in the heat of the moment. Derek Chauvin took nearly 9 minutes to kill George Floyd, and he did so with deliberation and dispassionate malice. That is why Derek Chauvin deserves to stand before a jury of his peers and face a charge of murder. But the incomprehensible existence of a Derek Chauvin doesn’t mean that we can’t still empathize with the flawed and fallible police officer who was legitimately afraid for his life and made a mistake in an impossible situation. The existence of Derek Chauvin doesn’t mean that we now demand the police force be comprised solely of Actually Good People because there are no Actually Good People. We are all of us flawed, fallible, and corruptible, and empathy demands we acknowledge those common human failings.
But this isn’t an essay about empathy, it’s an essay about systems.
Because people are flawed and make mistakes, when we ask them to do very hard jobs such as practicing medicine or enforcing the law or teaching a classroom of children, or being a Congressman, or social work, or driving a truck full of radioactive waste, or any number of jobs where public safety comes into play, we need to give them two things – support and accountability. Training is great but the best training in the world will erode in a lousy and unfair system, and of course training is implemented and received by people, with all their flaws. A healthy workplace culture would be great, but I find that attempts to impose cultures onto groups from above is invariably tainted by selfishness, tribalism, xenophobia, superiority, mean-spiritedness, and Puritanism. All we can ask of a well-designed system is that it provides support for its people while at the same time holding them accountable to a standard of behavior, that it takes into consideration both humanity’s many vices, and also our many virtues, like loyalty, which themselves may be corrupting influences.
The thing that’s remarkable about the sand castle that is the American Constitution (and the state constitutions that mimic it) is this – it does those things. It provides we, the people, support in the form of protecting our rights, providing courts so we can seek redress from an impartial authority against those who have harmed us, and setting limits on the abuse of force. Has the Constitution done this perfectly, no, of course not, because human beings are selfish, tribalistic, xenophobic, superior, mean-spirited, and even the best of them have a nasty Puritanical streak, and human beings are the ones implementing the system. But it’s a pretty freaking good system nonetheless, because it doesn’t pretend that humans are angels or robots. It’s a sound system because it takes into account the natural inclinations of humans towards immorality and tries to govern them through slow deliberation and accountability via checks and balances rather than hot heads and unilateral action.
Somewhere along the way a movement of power-hungry extremists convinced some of us that the folks trying to keep the castle from crumbling and doing it differently than they would have are the problem, and that the solution is to destroy everything and start anew. They would say that because the system was made by bad men, it is inherently bad, and must be torn down and rebuilt by good people. But there are no good people. The solution to America’s problems lies in all of us admitting that we are deeply flawed, self-obsessed jerks who would happily use the power of the law and of the government to accomplish our desires, even our whims, and then in light of that, building and designing more systems like the Constitution. Systems that take into account the nature of humanity in all our selfish, tribalistic, xenophobic, superior, mean-spirited, and Puritanical glory, using those very tendencies to hold each other accountable.
We don’t need better cops. We need better systems, the kinds with the checks and balances, the limitations and accountability baked in like the chocolate chips in a Toll House cookie. Because there are no better people. There are just different people. Different people in a bad system will invariably become bad people, it’s simply that their loyalties will lie with a different group of people. As will their prejudices.
Far too many people have a Hollywood understanding of the world. They believe in good guys and bad guys, and they believe that Batman and Superman exist – that there are people out there who can be trusted to wield phenomenal cosmic power wisely and justly on a case by case basis. But superheroes aren’t real. All we have is people, and trading one group for another is not and never will be a cure for systemic flaws…because people, to a one, are selfish, tribalistic, xenophobic, superior, mean- spirited, and even the best of them have a nasty Puritanical streak.
* * *
*Of course, this is why libertarians like me have been calling for criminal justice reform, public accountability, and checks and balances all this time even as both Democrats and Republicans alike worked hard to erode and corrupt the system to suit their agenda, but that’s neither here nor there.
Systems can make us better people. Where I’m struggling with how to respond to your well written post is the few Libertarians I interact with outside OT all seem to think we have too many formal systems, and that we’d all be better off if most of those systems – at least the government “inflicted” ones – went away.
I’m probably undercaffeinated in regards to this question, but it seems we can have one or the other but not both.Report
There is a cost to systems and some of them are simply virtue signalling by their creators.
Gun control is a stand out example, we have a shooting, something must be done by the political powers that be to show they care, so we have more regulations passed that won’t be followed by criminals.
Another example are processes that try to abstract engineering competence.
Having said that, because people fail in pretty predictable ways it’s probably a good thing to rotate your company’s accountant(s) so they don’t have the opportunity to spend decades cooking the books. Because of a lack of common sense and because “we can clearly trust Joe”, it would probably be a good thing to formalize that into a rule, or perhaps even a law.Report
Lovely essay.
I imagine we’re going to re-learn a lot of lessons over the next decade.Report
For some reason, I’m reminded of this commercial from WAMU. (Which, you may recall, closed down in 2008.)
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I think the essay touches on a good point, that our natures aren’t reducible to simple descriptors of good or bad. Every gang member, every corrupt cop will get a character witness to tell a true story of their kindness and noble character.
Its probably going to yield a better outcome to focus on behavior and how we as individuals, and we as a collective society can moderate and control behavior.
Systems are fine but only as good as those who are implementing them. We are all familiar with the yawning gap between office policy and office procedure. Likewise there is a yawning gap between the Constitution and what is done.
The Constitution, the system code of our republic, didn’t prevent Jim Crow or the Japanese internment and it certainly didn’t come to the rescue of all the George Floyds who were murdered with impunity over the years. It’s been said that America could become a dictatorship without changing a word of the Constitution and I believe this.Report
More transparency. Colorado recently passed a law saying that if a cop turns his camera off, we now have the option of ruling his testimony inadmissable.
I am not crazy about how it says “may be ruled inadmissible in court” rather than “will be ruled inadmissible in court” but… hey. What about in the situation where a policeman is peeing and then gets attacked at the urinal and then has to defend himself? What then???? Examples always get written in and that camel’s nose becomes the whole dang camel and we’re sleeping outside again.
But just acknowledging that cops not only have good reasons to turn the cameras off in the middle of an interaction, but there are bad reasons to turn them off too? Sadly, that’s a step forward from where we were. And a step forward, in this case, is a step in the right direction.Report
Don’t ever turn the cameras off. Encrypt it in real time. Decryption keys held separately from the line organization, and used when an investigation requires it and for system audits. Improper use of the decryption keys should carry heavy criminal and/or civil penalties.Report
Not or.Report
So, basically the cops/courts/whoever has no access until there is a warrant for it?
I think that is a capital idea.Report
I’ve witnessed plenty of juries watch horrific video of people being beaten or shot by cops, and applaud.
The most essential part of our system is that the “People are Sovereign” meaning what the people want, the people get.
Donald Trump, and an entire police force of Officer Chauvins, is what a whole lotta people want.Report
We’re seeing people come up with excuses for the murder of the kids in the CHOP.
People just want cops that they identify with. Once they have those, the cops can get away with murder.
So maybe all we need is hyper-local policing.Report
My point was that designing better systems is certainly a part of making things better, but we shouldn’t abandon the idea of making people themselves better.
Like all the studies of how totalitarian regime rise up by seducing the people and getting them to acquiesce or even applaud the brutality.Report
Making people themselves better?
I’m pretty sure that I have seen that movie.Report
It’s the trademark of basically every totalitarian regime. Either eugenics, direct control by the gov over culture, or both.Report
The only movie I’ve ever watched that was in the Khmer language was a Cambodian film about making better, more responsible, more socially aware people. It was made because Cambodians realized that the younger generation had no real knowledge of what their parents and grandparents went through under the Khmer Rouge.Report
It’s what churches try to do. And schools.
But not businesses, so it is anti-American.Report
It’s also what Burke’s “Little Platoons” do.
Families, church groups, book clubs, bowling leagues, fraternal organizations..These things socialize us, enforce social norms and police our behavior.
Even Ordinary Times itself is performing that function. We set codes of conduct and enforce them, shaping the behavior of everyone who regularly visits here.Report
So we just need police who are members of the families, church groups, book clubs, bowling leagues, and fraternal organizations of the communities they police.
Hyper-local.Report
well when the majority of the police forces in every major city in this country doesn’t actually live in the city but lives out in the in the basically Copland suburbs then yeah maybe we should get some cops who actually live in the fishing places they policeReport
I dig it. Here’s the Crips kicking some BLM activists out of their neighborhood. Deputize these guys. Give them the jurisdiction to move product in their neighborhood (with a handful of reasonable restrictions, of course).
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I’m thinking more of how each platoon creates its own system of norms as a way of urging people to improve:
For example, one such might issue the following rules:
“When you disagree with someone, posting pictures of your fecal matter WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.”
Now this may strike some free thinking iconoclasts as prudish or narrow minded. However, notice the all caps, which indicates how strongly the community feels about pictures of fecal matter. I believe Jonathan Haidt had an entire chapter on this.
“ Your username cannot be obscene like CumDumpster.”
Certainly, different cultures often have names which strike us as odd or even offensive; and a great latitude must be exercised before attempting to regulate such a personal choice as a name. However, reasonable people can disagree on whether the freedom of CumDumpster to post is a bridge too far.
“You cannot threaten to kill someone in the comment section.”
True, in the tradition of our forebears and the Founders, duels to the death occurred but some modern cultures hold that restricting this right is an important method of enhancing the use of the public square for everyone.
As you can imagine, a small culture which enforces rules like these will almost certainly produce much improved citizens.Report
You will never rat on your brother in blue, even if he’s a scumbag you need him, and the rest of us, to have your back.
This sort of unwritten “norm” is why I think bad police departments need to be destroyed rather than improved. After you’ve hit that point, if a cop disagrees with that “norm” he’s already left for a different department where he does like the norms… so presumably everyone in the dept agrees with it.Report
I’m familiar with the “churches” thing you speak of.
There are downsides.
Schools? I imagine that schools in some parts of town will be better at making people better than schools in other parts of town.
You don’t want your kids going to the schools that aren’t good at making people better. (It’s even worth moving to a good school district to avoid that sort of thing.)Report
Its absolutely true that some of the little platoons are toxic and effective at producing sociopathic citizens.Report
See also: Universities.Report
Uh, yeah guys, it’s also why we put people in jail, instead of just torturing or executing them for committing crimes.Report
Not hyper local policing, hyper local juries.
If a cop kills a black man in a black neighborhood, the jury is pulled from the whole region, and the defense can put together a jury that is so far removed from the abuses of the police that the dead person is an abstraction.
Alternatively, we could treat all homicides like we should treat rapes. A crime has been committed, you don’t get to disparage the victim. No asking the victim what they were wearing or how drunk they were. No submitting into evidence the past criminal history of the victim in an effort to stir up a sympathetic justification.
Honestly, how often, in a murder case, is the past bad acts of the victim, that the killer could not have known about, offered as a justification for the murder. About the only kind of case where it matters is in the case of physical abuse*.
And I was just reading about a cop who got off (I think) on a sexual abuse charge because the prosecutor played a video of him committing physical abuse, and the judge declared it prejudicial.Report
Yeah, hyper-local juries. But this implies some amount of hyper-local jury nullification.
We’re also going to need some hyper-local transparency.Report
Centuries ago, the testimony of parties was inadmissible because they were parties, and, therefore, had an interest in the outcome of the case, which meant their testimony could not be trusted and, therefore, could not be admitted. Used to be that if you had been convicted of a crime, your testimony was inadmissible because you were a convicted criminal, which meant your testimony could not be trusted and, therefore, could not be admitted. Over the centuries, we came to understand that such rules kept useful, and often critical, testimony from the jury, and we evolved the notion that whether testimony was worthy of belief was for the jury to decide on a witness-by-witness basis, not in advance by inflexible rules. You could bring up the witness’s interest in the outcome or criminal record and argue to the jury that, therefore, the jury ought not to believe what a particular witness said, but the testimony would not be categorically excluded. This is generally believed to have enhanced the ability of a jury to determine the truth, so the trend has been against categorical rules of inadmissibility based on the presumed unreliability of classes of witnesses, which is the opposite of “transparency.” And, as a general rule, no one’s testimony is inadmissible because of a lack of corroboration. That’s just anther factor the jury can consider. Colorado judges will probably rarely use their new power to exclude uncorroborated cop testimony, and a damn good thing, too. After all, we want transparency.Report
Yeah, but I still think that if a cop turns off his camera before an interrogation in which a woman with hands handcuffed behind her back commits suicide by shooting herself in the mouth, there are shenanigans.
Pardon me. The cop insists that he did not turn off the camera. The camera was knocked off the officer’s uniform during the struggle over the weapon.
It would be a good thing to start actively acknowledging that cops not only have good reasons to turn the cameras off in the middle of an interaction, but there are bad reasons to turn them off. And if they get turned off before something horrible happens to someone in custody, it’s good to tell the jury that they’re allowed to speculate why.
Note: There is an easy workaround for this: DON’T TURN OFF YOUR FREAKIN CAMERAS.Report
The cop insists that he did not turn off the camera. The camera was knocked off the officer’s uniform during the struggle over the weapon.
The footage a camera would record when it is knocked off during a struggle and goes bouncing across the floor should be rather distinctive. Was such footage recorded? That’s a serious question.Report
Here’s the best info I was able to find:
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He killed her and we really, REALLY don’t want that footage getting out…Report
It’s one of those stories that is so stupid you wonder if it happened because I’d hope they’d lie better.
Victim was homeless, living in a car with two others, older felon boyfriend is being arrested for drugs on his way to a probation meeting, mother’s description of her mentioned depression, car had drugs and guns and none of the three people living in it owned it.
The camera supposedly dropped during the fight with the boyfriend (who was tassed twice) away from the car.
The thing which stands out is this wasn’t a normal traffic stop. You have a patrol officer and a vice cop trying to arrest 2+ people. This sounds, at best, like a fishing expedition gone bad. Vice cop can’t get a warrant so arranges for his friend the traffic cop to make the stop, knowing there will be drugs and guns in the car.
https://www.wavy.com/news/local-news/chesapeake/narcotics-officer-investigated-couple-before-fatal-chesapeake-traffic-stop/1342015374/
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190317/10235941809/officers-body-cam-fails-to-capture-footage-woman-shooting-herself-head-while-her-hands-were-cuffed-behind-her.shtml#c857Report
Whether “there are shenanigans” is what you would have the trial to resolve. And the jury should have any evidence that might help it find that out, deciding for itself whether to believe what it is told. That would, and should, include the testimony of the (probably) lying cop who turned off his camera — if he chooses to testify. Any competent prosecutor or plaintiff’s lawyer would point out the well-timed turning off of the camera and invite the jury to make the obvious inference. That’s the transparent way to do it. I know which side I’d want to be representing in a turned-off camera case.Report
Yeah, if I were the cop, I’d hope that it was resolved in an internal investigation and never saw trial at all.Report
This is what I keep telling people who insist that there are just a few bad apples. The bad apples don’t matter, it’s the system that allows the bad apples to stay in the bushel despite the fact that they are moldy and stinky and starting to ruin the rest.
I’d be a lot more tolerant of those edge cases of questionable police use of force if the system did not work so hard to protect the obvious bad faith cases.Report
Although, Chris Rock has a point.Report
Also it seems in many cases the bad apples have been promoted and are running the place. They are sending new cops off to “warrior training” and such bs.Report
These aren’t bad apples. The tree is diseased. Some of the apples may not kill you. Some may actually be part of a balanced breakfast. But the tree keeps pumping out poisonous apples because the tree itself is the problem. The tree and the soil it’s planted in and the sunshine and rain it gets.Report
Yeah, I always think when people say “it’s a few bad apples” that the rest of the saying is “ruin the bunch.” A few bad apples in a bushel will turn the rest pretty quicklyReport
This subthread reads very different when you don’t scroll up and assume the bad apples people are talking about are the usual hoodlums who are committing all the violent crimes and property crimes in the neighborhood. “That’s why you never go there, and if you do you lock your car doors and drive fast with your fingers crossed, why the property values are in the toilet and the businesses are boarded up. It’s just those few bad apples that ruin it for everybody. If the police would just round those up, the neighborhood could experience a Renaissance and enjoy modernity.”
But that wasn’t this subthread, and that’s not the optimistic future we’re heading for.Report
There’s something else I think going on too, whether it’s a good cop or a bad cop. Cops deal with, shall we say, some not good people. That’s gotta color you perspective and grind you down. If you constantly deal with rapists, murderers, child molesters, addicts, prostitutes, etc., that has an impact on you as person. It colors your attitude and behavior. I think that needs some looking at too…in terms of stress mngt, staff rotation, or something.Report
From what I’ve seen, there is a toxic streak of ‘Tough it Out’ in the police. Internally, they all act tough and like it doesn’t bother them, and when people start talking about adding more psych support for police, they decline and ask for more Bearcats and MRAPs and Stingrays, etc.
Except when you start talking about holding police accountable, then we hear all about how hard the job is and the toll it takes on everyone and how much we just don’t understand and can not possibly be able to judge them, etc.Report
You know it’s hard out here for a pimp
When he tryin’ to get this money for the rent
For the Cadillac’s and gas money spent
Because a whole lot of bitches talkin’ shit
Will have a whole lot of bitches talkin’ shitReport
We just had a group of civilians give the job a whirl and in two weeks they’re killing people because of the color of their cars. Adjusted for population size, this is really bad.Report
There is something to be said for training…
I do wonder if we shouldn’t operate the police like we operate military reserves. Policing would not be a lifetime primary career. You sign up, go through training, then serve for two years. Then you take a break for a while except for one weekend a month where you undergo training to stay current. After a few years downtime, you rotate back in and serve for a while again.
And if you can not get yourself promoted past basic patrol after so many years, you are not allowed to re-up.Report
The obvious question is, “What do they do for that few years?” Jobs that pay as well as most LEOs that allow you to simply take two years off would seem pretty rare.Report
Social work. They can be the people who are called instead of the police when someone needs a wellness check.Report
My county requires social workers to hold a relevant four-year degree. (Cities are not generally involved; significant state laws would have to be changed. That’s just a complication, not an impossibility.) As it turns out, my city requires that sworn police officers hold a four-year degree. When I’ve brought that up, no one here has said “What a dumb idea!” but close.
I’m trying to understand what you’re proposing here. Are the reserve cops going to be real social workers, managing cases, making recommendations in family court, mediating counseling sessions, etc? Or something that’s neither an armed cop or a trained social worker?Report
I was going for dark humor.Report
This is a brilliant reply.Report
As I’ve been telling people, the OCP corporation’s ED-209 is capable of both general law enforcement and urban pacification. It never sleeps. It never gets tired. It can’t be racist or sexist because it’s a robot.
It would also prevent the need for derisive social worker memesReport
Here’s one step:
LA City Council approves first step in replacing LAPD with community responders for non-violent calls
The Los Angeles City Council on Tuesday approved the first step in a plan to replace Los Angeles Police Department officers with community-based, unarmed emergency responders for non-violent calls for service.
The motion instructs the LAPD to work with the county’s Department of Mental Health, Los Angeles Homeless Services Authority and other government agencies to respond to non-violent incidents, such as drug abuse and incidents related to mental health.
It would include diverting nonviolent calls for services, such as neighbor disputes and others from the LAPD to the appropriate non-law-enforcement agencies.
https://www.foxla.com/news/la-city-council-approves-first-step-in-replacing-lapd-with-community-responders-for-non-violent-calls
Obviously a very early and tentative step, but interesting.Report
See the derisive social worker meme posted above. One of the reasons we have police respond to drug abuse and mental health cases is that such people may present a threat of serious bodily injury, which is probably why the somebody called the police. The social worker will show up, look at the crazy, and then call the police.Report
Exactly, but if the police are not needed, then they won’t be there to overreact.
And if they are called, set the policy such that the social worker or mental health professional retains command of the scene (the cop works for the non cop and follows their instructions).
Granted, this would require a great deal of training between cops and other responders, as well as a host of new policies, but some impatient cop with a macho problem should not be deciding how to deal with the crazy.Report
Learning how to handle violent patients is one of the skills that home health care aides and nurses possess.Report
When our crazy was investigated, it was indeed a social worker who showed up.Report
Same thing people in the military reserves do. Remember, this would not be a primary career. It would be similar to military deployment (with attendant protections). Folks don’t stay in the military reserves for the lucrative paychecks.
The ultimate point would be to give people mental/emotional downtime.Report
Real questions, out of ignorance. What fraction of the military reserves are infantry or similar on the front lines? What fraction of those if called up would just be plugged into a front line unit w/o considerable training to remind them about real discipline? What fraction are specialists doing work that mostly doesn’t involve shooting at all?Report
Everyone is a rifleman, and something else.
There are very few people who are just riflemen, and they are usually low rank.
And in the reserves, the one weekend a month is how you keep the discipline up so they can be effective when called up.Report
For the most part, the people who would be happy as grunt infantrymen are the kind of people who go career.Report
You can’t, military doesn’t allow it. There are no career E-4’s, for instance. If you can not advance to E-5 in a certain amount of time (8 years back when I was in, IIRC), you are not allowed to re-enlist. E-5 is some flavor of sargent/petty officer, which means you almost certainly have a specialty beyond infantry/rifleman if you are in the reserves (in the Army, active duty can be 11B/11C/11X, but not in the reserves).
And since we are talking about the reserves here, that is relevant.
Note that in the Navy/Coast Guard, you absolutely can not advance to E-4 until you have a rating (specialty). And if you can not gain a rating inside of 4 years, you won’t be allowed to re-up. There are no career seamen/airmen/firemen (the equivalent of an infantry rifleman in the Army).Report
There are career infantry–they advance to positions such as platoon sergeants (which could be E5-E7), company gunnery sergeants or first sergeants. There aren’t as many of those, as many that stay in would either choose to switch their MOS (because grunt life sucks) or many just intend to do their time and get out. Those additional specialties will often be infantry related (or administrative). In the reserves, maybe they have more specializations, but that’s not the case in the fleet (at least for jarheads). And infantry “rifleman” can be machine gunners, mortar men, etc, so there’s some variety. But there are long term infantry marines (though they may have a break with DI duty, recruiting duty, sea duty-guards on ships, or embassy duty), they’re just not the majority of an infantry company or platoon.Report
I was going off the Army website, where career infantry are not allowed in the reserves.
I didn’t look at the USMC page.Report
Gotcha–and that model makes sense for the reserves.Report
Being Navy, the whole, my job is to shoot a rifle, and that is it, is a bit weird to me.
Every sailor knows basic seamanship and how to be part of a fire fighting team, etc. But no one is a simple ‘Seaman’. At least not past E-3.Report
You’re oversimplifying the grunts a bit. It’s not just shooting a rifle–it’s also unit tactics (such as urban warfare), multiple weapon types, climbing, climate specialization, etc. It’s still a weird kind of MOS as far as the “skills” are pretty much “ways to kill people.”Report
I’m not trying to oversimplify it any more than I am oversimplifying the basics of Seamanship (which is a whole lot more than knot tying and firefighting).
I mean, I guess one could argue that in the Navy a Boatswains Mate and a Damage Control Technician or a Machinists Mate are the ‘Infantryman’ equivalent, but even those ratings have a great degree of specialization once you get into the Petty Officer ranks.Report
Don’t forget the skill of removing perfectly good paint and repainting it. Isn’t that a skill? Heh.Report
grrrrr….
yes
so many fecking times…Report
My father was a senior petty officer for a few years. One of the things I learned from him as a kid is that if you have nothing more constructive to do, there’s always something that’s not as clean as it could be. After cleaning every inch of the water feed lines under the kitchen sink once, I became much better at finding things that needed doing on the days that dad decided to make war on sloth…Report
I had the same basic idea, posted 50 minutes later.Report
This makes me wonder… what sort of ongoing training are police required to have? In my neck of the woods, teachers need to get re-certified (technically, they have to continue moving up the certification ladder), which requires a mix of PD and schooling (depending on exactly where on the ladder you are and where you are going). Day care employees — which don’t necessarily have to be certified — also require ongoing training with increased specificity of what that entails.
Does anyone know what sorts of training/PD are required of police? I’m sure it varies but even a general sense or just some specific info would be really interesting. It isn’t something I thought about before but Oscar got the gears turning.Report
I was just talking about this with a friend whose husband is a Chicago police officer. She’s been posting a lot of stuff recently trying to counteract all the anti-police stuff showing up on Facebook. A common thread in all the videos is the years of seeing the stuff cops see changes a person for the worse.
Having someone in a job like that for (insert number of years it takes to change a brain) years is proving to be detrimental to society. Perhaps we ought to have enlistment terms for police like we do for the military, let’s say 5 years. When the hitch is up, give whoever wants to re-enlist a psych eval. If that’s passed, given ’em a year of desk duty to decompress. No soldier stays on the line for his entire term of enlistment.Report
In the vein of the whole “it’s good when the police do things to people who are bad” tendency that seems to spring up in some surprising places, one of the people who was particularly vocal in the moments after the shooting of the children in the CHAZ/CHOP has since apologized for earlier bloodthirst as more details came out. (CW: Strong language.)
Kto? Kogo?Report
If only he had a support crew to tell him to shut up and keep blaming the victim. He’ll probably end up in prison. However there’s something to be said about confessions and learning from our mistakes.
And don’t we do something like that for doctors? They confess, we go over in detail how this mess up happened, we (mostly) take prison off the table. The system is assumed to be at fault, we blame the system and try to fix it.Report
I find the whole “don’t snitch” thing that seems to be establishing itself in the wake of the killing of the two children (“Why do you keep calling them ‘children’? They were teenagers! In the 1800’s, they’d be married by now!”) seems to have a lot in common with the so-called “blue wall of silence”.
Which is kinda messed up.Report
Must be a human thing to do.Report
To the point of your asterisk, Radley Balko was on NPR today on Fresh Aire talking about his book “Rise of the Warrior Cop”.
It’s not a re-run so I don’t think that there’s a transcript yet (googling didn’t show me anything after a few seconds of looking).
So tune in, in your local area and I’ll try to dig up a link when I find one later. There have been a handful of Libertarians doing the Lord’s Work on this sort of thing when Republicans thought that cops could do no wrong and Democrats were still reeling from the last time they were seen as “soft on crime”. (Oh, and they’re going to be seen as “soft on crime” again, if they’re not careful.)Report
We’ve needed more Balko for a while now.Report
Nothings Ds can do about the soft on crime stuff. It’s already out there and the R’s are going to push it. They did it to Obama heavily. It is what it is. People who are swayed by soft on crime rhetoric are very unlikely to vote D.Report
There are a handful of things they can do. Omnibus crime bills, that sort of thing. “Superpredators”.
Push for the death penalty.Report
Huh? They seem to be going in the other direction. And are going to continue to be painted as soft on crime. Why Obama’s beer summit with Gates and that cop destroyed the moral of police all over the country.Report
Oh, they’re going in the other direction? Well, maybe “it’s *GOOD* that we’re soft on crime! We’re hard on racism! We’re hard on Injustice! We’re *SOFT* on underserved communities that have more policing than they deserve!” would be a play worth making.
“Black lives matter!”
“Two kids got shot yesterday.”
“You didn’t say it back. Why?”Report
What in the hell are you talking about?
Have the D’s offered up and voted on a Fed comprehensive police reform?Report
You mean like Justin Amash’s bill?
I haven’t heard that it’s been voted on yet. Is there one that has jockeyed for position ahead of it?Report
This bill:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/25/politics/house-police-reform-legislation-vote/index.html
Already passed in the house. Has lots of good stuff , though certainly not everything needed. We know ending QI is a firm no go for the R’s per Scott.Report
From the article:
Report
(Oh, and they’re going to be seen as “soft on crime” again, if they’re not careful.)
The US has the highest incarceration rate in the world….Report
U-S-A! U-S-A!
When you think about it, it’s pretty impressive we’re also lapping the field in Covid cases when we have so many folks permanently locked up.Report
This is a very good piece Kristen, the need to have systems that don’t assume good faith in our leaders is an important part of The Scottish Enlightenment and is key to create a successful government.Report
I agree Kristen. Institutions matter, a lot. We need much better institutional solutions to deal with our police.
I will add, or at least emphasize, that mindsets matter too. Or, what Deirdre McCloskey would fall rhetoric. How we think about and position or frame issues and how we speak about them.
We need to frame the abuse of authority in our justice system properly so that we can design institutions to counteract the problems. Failure to frame the issue properly, will lead not to better institutions, but likely to worse ones.
My fear is that we (collective we, not you and I) all agree the institution needs fixin, but we may still be miles apart on what the solutions should look like.Report