What the Left (and pretty much everyone else) still don’t get about the “Monica Lewinksi Scandal”
Imagine if you will a large multi-national corporation.
The CEO of this corporation is quite charismatic and is extremely popular with most of his employees and well as the corporate shareholders. His opponents, on the other hand, hate him to a degree that seems unhinged. They spread rumors about him, and quite a few of these rumors are pretty silly: he’s a gangster; he’s really a mole for a rival corporation; he has employees killed. Since there’s no evidence of these allegations (not even circumstantial) the employees and shareholders don’t pay them much attention.
There are other rumors, though, that are more troubling — rumors where there are witnesses.
Several ex-employee women claim the CEO sexually harassed them. Some even claim that when they attempted to rebuff him, he forced himself on them anyway. There were investigations, of course, but for most of these women it was a matter of he said/she said; due to the charisma of the CEO this puts “she said” at a bit of a disadvantage. Not that the executive staff is relied on that charisma to save the day, mind you.
In some instances the corporation’s executive staff released personal letters they had obtained from accusers to make them look “slutty.” In other instances the executives hired private detectives, discovered what may or may not have been couplings these women had outside the bonds of marriage, and sent out memos describing these dalliances to the corporation’s employees. In one case it turned out that one of these women had actually recorded a conversation that proved her case. Still, HR decided that since she was probably a bit of slut anyway it didn’t warrant any kind of action.
But that’s all in the past. How can you blame someone for doing something that’s in the past?
Now, it so happens there is also a young intern who works in this corporation’s executive offices. This intern is not paid. Part of the reason she has agreed to work for free is that being an intern in the executive offices is a career booster. Having it on her resume will mean more opportunities and probably more income in later years. In truth, there are thousands of young people in her industry that would jump at the chance to have this internship; it’s a plum assignment. Once there, this intern catches the CEO’s eye and over time he seduces her. Well, he sort of seduces her — their sole physical tryst is his convincing her to give him oral sex, eventually ejaculating onto her dress and sending her home in her stained garment.
Afterwards, however, the president decides that although he likes getting a blowjob, he doesn’t particularly like having to hang around with someone that has already given him one. So the executive staff arranges to have the intern transferred to a considerably less plum assignment in another division. Being an intern at this other division will not lead to the kind of career opportunities that she would have had with the executive office gig. Worse, in this particular industry being transferred from the executive offices to this other division communicates something lacking in her performance. Rather than being a highlight, that executive office job has suddenly become a red mark for the intern, should she decides to continue her career in this industry.
Later, when all of this is has been taken up in courts, the CEO and his executive staff wage a smear campaign against the intern. She is subsequently described in the press as a stalker, crazy, a slut, a home wrecker, a harlot, and part of a vast conspiracy against the corporation itself.
After the entire sordid affair is over, everyone agrees that the intern is slut who deserved every bad thing that was coming to her, and more. The executive staff — the ones who waged the smear campaign they knew to be false — went on to positions even more lucrative than they held while in the CEO’s staff. The CEO, of course, went on to receive many lucrative bonuses. After he retired, the corporation continued to lionize him as a great leader and — somewhat ironically — one of the best employers a woman could ever hope to have.
But that’s all in the past. How can you blame someone for doing something that’s in the past?
Unless, you know, it’s a woman.
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This weekend I put up a post criticizing the Left for the way it continues to handle the sexual harassment scandal that swept up Monica Lewinski. The pushback I received was, in my opinion, a good indicator of how just how far we as a society have to go when it comes to how we treat the crime of sexual harassment.
The objections to criticizing the way the Left handles this scandal were — as always — threefold:
- The scandal was framed as an affair.
- Those pundits who did not savage Lewinski when framing the crime in terms of what she did or did not do wrong were excused as not being part of the problem.
- The good work Democrats do overall was given as an excuse to President Clinton, his senior advisors, and the vast majority of talking heads on Team Blue who continue years later to provide cover for those crimes.
Or, if you prefer: See no evil, hear no evil, and speak no evil.
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As regular readers know, sexual harassment is a subject with which I have some professional experience. Part of my house was paid for by my assisting corporations craft harassment policies, mediating harassment disputes, and assisting with harassment training and investigations. Even in our “advanced” age of 2014, it remains the most misunderstood of all employer liabilities. It continues to be obfuscated by myths, some of which the Left perpetuates with the Lewinski scandal.
Here’s one: If a person consented to a relationship, no sexual harassment occurred.
The Left continues to frame Clinton’s transgression as having had an extramarital affair. They are wrong. And it isn’t simply because the President had power over an unpaid staffer (thought that certainly is an integral point). After he was done with her, he and his staff had her transferred to an out-of-the-way, less plum position at the Pentagon so that he wouldn’t have to deal with the potential aftermath that can come with an intern whose career one holds in one’s hands as one leads them on.
There’s also this: Despite what the Left likes to tell itself to feel better about itself, Lewinsky wasn’t made to testify in connection to an investigation regarding sweet young thangs giving blowjobs to married men. She was compelled to testify in regards to an actual sexual harassment lawsuit — one which, as it turned out, the President was actually guilty of having committed. Indeed, despite the President’s defenders insistence that she’s a fame whore, Lewinsky actually tried hard to avoid the spotlight. She even initially perjured herself, denying that there had been an inappropriate relationship in hopes of avoiding the slut shaming she guessed in advance she would receive.
Not that she needed to be Kreskin to see it coming.
Various women had in fact already accused the President of sexual harassment. Some had claimed something far worse: that Bill Clinton, prior to having been elected to the highest office, had forced sex with them against their will. The response from Clinton, his wife, and their core advisors had been the same in each instance: paint the accuser as a crazy, slutty woman with whom nothing had happened and even if it did she was totally asking for it. They did this as well with other women who began stepping forward saying that Clinton had come on to them as well. (It is important to note that several of these women didn’t sue for damages or try to cash in on their infamy; they simply wanted to stand behind his other accusers as their names were being dragged through the mud.) In every case Clinton and his staff dug up information about these women’s sex lives and broadcast them to the world. Some were threatened with perjury charges. And of course there was Paula Jones. Jones’ claims that she was harassed held up to scrutiny — we know now that the harassment did occur — but were initially dismissed nonetheless because there were “no damages suffered.” (Clinton would eventually pay almost $1 million to Jones.)
When Lewinsky eventually testified (stained blue dress and all), it wasn’t on her own behalf. She was called as a witness to prove that Clinton had lied during the Jones investigation. Indeed, we now know that Clinton has been proven to have lied, to one degree or another, regarding the case of every woman that came forward. And if you think that’s not such a big deal when it comes to all the good he did for women, remember that some these were rape allegations — and that the reason they had been dropped was that it had been assumed earlier that his word meant something and that theirs meant considerably less.
So no, the big thing about Monica Lewinsky isn’t that she had an “affair” or gave a blowjob.
Let’s take a look at the second type of pushback: The notion that, because articles like this one at Think Progress don’t actually smear Lewinsky, they therefore get a pass on sexist or anti-women criticism.
At first blush, this is certainly true enough. And if the article were a sidebar to a discussion — any discussion — of what the Bill Clinton did to Lewinski in 1996 (or his family and staff did to her afterward), I would probably agree. But Think Progress — like pretty much every other non-Right punditry vehicle — won’t dare frame the issue that way, for fear of making things a bit more complicated for the DNC.
Here are the posts you get when you search for Lewinsky on Think Progress. It is, for the most part, a series of comparisons of Lewinsky and other political rogues. Most of the posts that bother discussing her relationship with the former President at all are like this one — pitching the argument that it is somehow impolite, outrageous, or simply the mark of terrible journalism to even bring up the name Lewinski when talking about the Big Dog. In this context, Tara Culp-Resser’s Think Progress piece falls well short of my own personal bar of acceptability. And, I suspect, it would for others on the Left as well were the name “Clinton” not attached to it.
Imagine if you will a piece in the Wall Street Journal that covered a similar scandal that had no political implications, such as the one I gave above involving an imaginary multi-national corporation. Imagine as well that the WSJ gave that CEO a pass and refused to discuss his crimes. Imagine still further that the WSJ continued to lionize the CEO whenever the opportunity arose — but when discussing the intern only did so in terms of her supposed shortcomings. Then imagine an article, when that intern was back in the news, that talked about whether or not she should be empowered be viewing herself as a victim — again, not discussing in any way that a very serious crime was perpetrated against her. Would we not find that article offensive, in that context?
Even the way we continue to refer to the events — the “Lewinski Scandal” — is telling. Consider: How often do you hear anyone refer to the Ginger White Scandal? How about the Maria Chapur Scandal? The Deborah Palfey, Anthony Mercieca, Tracy Jackson and Diane Hill Scandals? The answer, of course, is never. You may, however, at various times hear people refer to the scandals of Herman Cain, Mark Sanford, David Vitter, Mark Foley, Mark Souder and Tom Ganley. If there is a Left-leaning blog, columnist, magazine, cable network or talk radio show that refers to the events in which Lewinski was entwined “The Bill Clinton Scandal,” I have yet to come across them.
So no, making the choice to frame Clinton’s sexual harassment in terms of how Monica Lewinski is or isn’t so really bad — while ignoring Clinton’s actual crimes — really doesn’t get you a pass, at least not from me.
Which brings us to the third objection: That the Clintons and the Democrats are better for women than Republicans — if women’s issues are important to you, then in the Big Picture it is best to look the other way.
This, too, seems reasonable enough at first blush. After all, pick a bit of legislation that favors women — equal pay, family leave, access to birth control, etc. — and it’s sure to be the product of Team Blue and opposed by Team Red. If you believe that focusing on these issues is necessary (and for the record, I do), then doesn’t it make sense to wish away whatever harassment (and possible rape) Bill Clinton might have engaged in? And if that means demonizing, laughing off, or simply ignoring his victims, isn’t that all for the greater good of women? After all, there’s no question that the Big Dog is still the most popular Democrat out there; he rallies the troops and raises money like nobody’s business. Then, too, there is the little matter that his wife is the presumptive nominee for President in 2016. Doesn’t all of that outweigh what he’s done to a few singular women? The needs and the many, and all that.
Here’s something else most people don’t know about valid sexual harassment claims: They always have a negative effect on people in an organization that had nothing to do with the harassment; there is always an unfair sacrifice.
A sexual harassment scandal for a large corporation can lead to loss of revenue that can lead to layoffs for people — including women — who never even met the harasser. Judgments paid by companies (or increased premiums to liability insurers) mean less money for all employees. A small enough company can go out of business under the weight of these lawsuits and EEOC fines, putting people — again, even women — who did nothing wrong in the unemployment line. Beyond that, these suits are a major disruption to a company’s workflow and moral.
And if that is too esoteric or nebulous a concept, go back to the privatized version of the Clinton scandal from up top. Imagine that the company in question was not a large multi-national corporation, but a nonprofit that raised money for breast cancer, or one that paid for lower-income young women to get education in the STEM fields. Those are very pro-women missions, and women in general are (to some degree) better off that those kinds of nonprofits exist. Would we still waive off sexual harassment by those male executive directors? Would we be complicit about slut shaming the women they targeted — you know, for the greater good of women?
As I have noted before, one of the great gifts Ta-Nehisi Coates has brought to the intertubes is his careful and constant teaching that simply passing laws protecting the disenfranchised and vulnerable isn’t enough. You can pass all the legislation you want; if liberal whites don’t want blacks in their neighborhoods they’ll find a way to pass equal-rights bills and circumvent them. Sexual harassment laws are no different. Here’s a news flash: It’s always easy to agree that some faceless corporation we don’t work for be punished for abusing their female employees; it’s always more “grey” when those lawsuits mean our own lives are negatively impacted. That’s in no small part precisely why we these laws — because there’s always a reason for those closest to the situation to excuse the abuse.
Indeed, sexual harassment laws themselves are ones that were put on the books by the Left. The Right fought them bitterly. (And in many cases, it still does.) What good does it do if the Left passes laws that protect women — only to decide that those protections disappear the moment it isn’t particularly convenient for the Left? What does that make those laws, really, other than political tools with which to bash their opponents? When the Right claims that liberals are the real racists, the Left mocks them — and as well they should based on the Right’s performance on that issue. What then, is the difference between that and the Left calling the Right sexist, when they are unwilling to choose the protection of women over X number of campaign contributions?
And as for whole 2016 issue, here’s another bit of shocking news: No one has placed a single vote in the Democratic primary yet. So when the Left defends the Clintons on the basis that the Right is worse and there’s an election coming up, it’s somewhat disingenuous. Clinton is not yet running against a GOP candidate; she’s running against a field of liberal democrats, many of whom don’t demonize victims of sexual harassment so that they can achieve power. No one’s putting a gun to anyone’s head and making Hilary Clinton the nominee.
And if that’s not enough, consider this: It turns out the Left really can come down hard on the Big Dog these days, providing that the issue is one that’s important enough to the Left.
What that says about how important an issue sexual harassment is for the Left is probably up for debate.
Follow Tod on Twitter, view his archive, or email him. Visit him at TodKelly.com
Breathtaking, Tod. A tour de force.
When John le Carre published Absolute Friends, the reviewer from Time (Lev Grossman) wrote, “This is le Carre in career form: his anger burns cold and clear.” That came to mind as I read this essay.Report
Co-sign.Report
(But I also thought your first post made the point quite clearly.)Report
Powerful post and right on target.. Everybody and every side fails at times and needs constant pushing to live up to our best selves and highest standards.Report
I don’t believe this is true. I work in the relevant industry and people move around all the time. The fact that you got in the door in the first place is a much stronger signal than to where you move. I don’t know enough about Lewinsky’s erstwhile policy career to say for sure whether what happened to her after her liaisons with Clinton are tantamount to harassment or retribution.
I do think that your insistence that this is a case of sexual harassment involves a bit of faulty logic. Or rather, it involves you defining sexual harassment in such a way that it encompasses a wide range of behaviors some of which we ought to find deplorable and some of which I’m not sure we ought to feel one way or the other about.
To me, this is a situation in which two adults made series of decisions and both were held accountable for those decisions. I have a lot more sympathy for Lewinsky, because her decisions were made at such a young age, but lots of young people make bad decisions that follow them for life. In the grand scheme, what happened to Lewinsky doesn’t even crack my moral radar.Report
You don’t understand this piece because, to quote The Last Psychiatrist, it isn’t for you. It’s for the nominally pro-feminist Left.
What Tod is doing is stating that in any context other than Bill MF’in Clinton we wouldn’t even be having this disucssion, because it would be obvious that sexual harassment had occurred, obvious that a power differential had been exploited, obvious that there would be millions of dollars in damages paid, obvious that careers would end over the issue.Report
But isn’t that only if Lewinsky lodged a complaint? If I understand Tod correctly, she never pursued any action against him.Report
But isn’t that only if Lewinsky lodged a complaint? If I understand Tod correctly, she never pursued any action against him.
Yeah, that’s the part that Tod seems to keep ignoring.
And he also seems to be making a lot of assumptions as to how Lewinsky regarded the relationship that Lewinsky’s actual words dispute.
Likewise, what has Lewinsky said about being transferred?
And there’s an awful lot of claims that Hillary attacked Lewinsky in ways that I simply don’t remember at all. Perhaps that happened, but, uh, can we have some cites about that? I mean, I know she said that she thought Lewinsky was lying, before it became clear she wasn’t, but it’s a strange interpretation to make that out to be anything other than a wife in denial that her husband had an affair.Report
As I said in the other thread, what went on with Lewinsky is doubtful from a legal perspective. Doesn’t make it right; that’s not a Clinton apology. But to be legally actionable, the conduct has to be unwelcome, which is the legal hook upon which the slut-shaming defense occurs in litigation. As Tod argued in his first post and here, her willingness to participate in the sex act is not particularly the issue. His is, as is his conduct afterwards.Report
I wish your hypothetical was just that.
I wish Monica Lewinsky had a wonderful life that wasn’t marred by something she did when she was 20ish.
But, in the grand scheme of things, they’re both unbelievably petty, as world-destroying as they are to the people involved.
And that is the true tragedy of our times, that we do not have the luxury to fix everything that’s broken. I stride forth in a country that will soon start talking about disenfranchising women — and worse, if that is not stopped cold.Report
I agree that Bill’s behavior was inappropriate (though I’m skeptical about impeachable worthy) and should certainly disqualify him for office in the minds of left minded voters going forward.Report
Bill’s behavior wasn’t simply “inappropriate”, it was a textbook example of sexual harassment; it’s irrelevant that his behavior was enabled by a sincerely consenting intern named Monica. I mean, that’s pretty much the whole point. That Monica consented. If she hadn’t consented, even simply yielded– well, there’s another term for that. Sexual assault.
I agree that Bill’s sexual harassment of Monica was not an impeachable offense. The impeachable part –to my mind way back then, and still– was his lying under oath. I understood why he lied under oath, even sympathized that he had legit reasons for doing it. But a line’s gotta be drawn somewhere, even when –especially when– it comes to our nation’s highest office. And lying under oath seems a good place to draw a very firm line.
Meantime, us left-minded voters ceased fretting over casting a vote for Bill decades ago. His days of holding any elected office are long gone. In fact, his considerable influence on Team Blue is rather predicated on his not holding any elected office.Report
Oops. That last graf … I meant to write “years ago”, not “decades ago”. (Holy hyperbole.)Report
I have nothing to object to my dear lady except maybe the decade part that you already rescinded.Report
@ktward
I would be very surprised if *any* president, up to (or down to) and including Saint Jimmy*, would not lie under oath provided that:
1) He (or, eventually, she) perceived the cost of telling the truth as high enough (very fertile ground for rationalization there); and
2) He thought the odds were good that he could get away with it.
Bill’s unique personality may have caused him to overweight 2) more than the median president would do – I dunno. It was partly Bill’s unique, err, personality that resulted in him being under oath in the first place.
So, if you disagree with that evaluation, on what basis? If you agree, then do you still think he should have been impeached pour encourager les autres?
*Who really said “I will never lie to yew”, and didn’t correct people’s misparsing of the homonym.
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@scott-the-mediocre
Bill’s unique personality may have caused him to overweight 2) more than the median president would do – I dunno.
I think it may have been more complicated — until Clinton, the press and other politicians had pretty much worked to hide presidential philandering from public view. There was little reason to expect that the power of the office itself would not continue to be a shied; it certainly had been one for many, many previous presidents.Report
@scott-the-mediocre
I would be very surprised if *any* president, up to (or down to) and including Saint Jimmy*, would not lie under oath…
I actually think that Clinton’s lawyers had it right…you should not be able to proceed in a lawsuit against a sitting president. At least, not unless you can show some ongoing damage.
The sitting president being involved with the court system is just asking for fail, especially if Congress can then impeach him for things that happen in that system. The constitution *tries* to stop that, but, through what I suspect was an oversight, failed to consider the civil courts.Report
@zic
Yes, the times they were a’ changin’ around then anyway, to some degree at least (still far to go), which might have muddied the white waters.
@davidtc
Agreed that litigation against the POTUS (unrelated to acts asPOTUS) creates all sorts of interesting separation of powers problems. I remember some people suggesting that the statute of limitations be tolled during Bill’s presidency for specifically that reason. OTOH, justice delayed is justice denied, not to mention the longer the litigation was suspended (or whatever the right term is), the more ability the Friends of Bill had to tilt the field (although in this case, since the Enemies of Bill were pushing just as hard if not harder on the pinball machine in the other direction, other than further fading of memories, the passage of time effect might not be too significant).
Could someone more knowledgeable than me (large set, most of the commentariat) say what has happened before when a President takes office with litigation (or for that matter, a criminal proceeding) pending? IIRC there weren’t any usefully applicable precedents.
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@scott-the-mediocre
I remember some people suggesting that the statute of limitations be tolled during Bill’s presidency for specifically that reason.
I wouldn’t think that would be needed, would it? As long as the suit is filed within the time limit, it shouldn’t matter if it can’t proceed forward. That’s how it works for crimes. Maybe it’s different for civil suits, though.
In fact, if I understand how this all works correctly, the president could actually be indicted for a crime as president, stopping the statue of limitation countdown, and just not actually be arrested until after he left office.
Although you run into the problem of the president hilariously pardoning himself.
We actually have the absurd constitutional situation where, if the president literally committed murder in full view of everyone, he couldn’t actually end up in prison for that crime unless he was an idiot. Impeachment only allows removal from office, and barring from future officeholding. Now, after removal for office, the constitution says he could then be charged…but only if he was too dumb not to pardon himself before removal from office.
Agreed that litigation against the POTUS (unrelated to acts asPOTUS) creates all sorts of interesting separation of powers problems.
I actually think it would be an interesting question what would have happened if Bill had simply refused to show up in court. I think, much like the POTUS can’t be charged with a crime, the POTUS couldn’t actually be held in contempt of court either. (Or maybe he can be held in contempt, but such an order cannot be enforced.)
He could, of course, be held in contempt of Congress if he failed to testify at his impeachment or conviction. Although that would be a weird-ass constitutional crisis, sending the Capitol Police to haul in the POTUS.Report
What does this scandal have to do with Hillary Clinton, anyway? Why is Bill’s behavior being framed in terms of Hillary’s campaign in 2016?
I mean, Don Draper behaves like a cad, and Betty Draper has to withdraw from society and hide in shame?Report
This is a really interesting question — one rife with its own ugly history of misogyny. I wonder how much of the left’s actions around the issue are motivated by fear (real or imagined) that the right will make it an issue and how much of the left’s actions are motivated by their own inability to see Hilary as someone independent of her husband in general and this scandal in particular.Report
Having a rapist/sexual harasser in the formal auspices of First Husband could be Awkward — to the extent that this is substantiated (and, I hesitate to say, “still a problem”, but I’m pretty sure I can point to studies on decreased sex drive…).
(We’ve seen how much sh!t Michelle Obama takes, for not doing pretty much anything objectionable).Report
“What does this scandal have to do with Hillary Clinton, anyway? ”
Because she personally participated in, and in some cases led, the diminishment of her husband’s accusers that Tod described in this post and the last.
She has, more than anyone else, put aside long held and long fought for principles in order to gain personal power. Now, not everyone gives birth to three baby dragons, so compromise and ethical ambiguity are almost certainly her only way to the Resolute Desk, but that’s what this scandal has to do with H. Clinton.Report
This is presuming a lot.
I know nothing of her motives, and I’m not really fond of HRC as a politician. But there is no doubt in my mind that Bill and Hillary love each other deeply, and I’m sure she had had to confront (and make her peace with) Bill’s nature long before the scandal.
The notion that she simply discarded her ethical standards for power is a story: and one we can never really know. It turns her into something Shakespearean: while it may be the case, I tend to think that she’s more like a regular human, trying to muddle through complicated situations in the best way she can.Report
“Here’s one: If a person consented to a relationship, no sexual harassment occurred.”
I’m struggling with this a bit. I understand that two people can consent to something which might still be inappropriate, improper, or even immoral. I get that a legal definition of sexual harassment might include consensual acts. But I think people tend to use the term with a meaning other than the strict legal one. When I think of “harassment”, I think of something that is inherently unwanted. Were you to ask me if Monica Lewinsky was sexually harassed by Bill Clinton, I would probably say that she wasn’t, because my understanding is that she fully consented to everything that happened. This doesn’t mean she wasn’t still a victim, wasn’t still harmed by him. Only that she wasn’t sexually harassed based on my understanding of that phrase in a more colloquial manner. And I’m not sure if or how this makes me misogynistic or otherwise hostile towards women.Report
I concur. My knowledge of sexual harassment jurisprudence is a bit dated, but from what I remember there are generally two different kinds of harassment: quid pro quo (“sleep with me or you’re fired”) and hostile environment (“is that a pubic hair on mt Coke?”).
The idea that any time a senior employee has an inappropriate relationship with a subordinate, he or she has engaged in sexual harassment seems like a stretch. Is there some case law that backs this up?Report
I’ve got to go with Tod on this, since he’s got the most experience on this, something I think everyone quibbling with him is overlooking. If he says the boss sleeping with an employee, then transferring her to a lower-status job is sexual harassment, I’m more inclined to take his word for it than the word of anyone else here. This was his job–he knows.Report
I will say this: regardless of whether it’s sexual harassment (and I don’t know, so I won’t speculate), it’s pretty damn shitty.Report
@james-hanley
I’m not arguing the law. I can’t. I don’t know it. I’m arguing a bit more for common sense. Speaking only about Lewinsky, if she is of the mind that everything she did she did of her own volition, it makes Bill many things, but guilty of harassment as that term is commonly (not legally) used is not one of them. Which might be why people hold the position Tod says they wrongly do: they aren’t thinking about a legal definition but a common one.Report
For those playing along at home, here is my professional opinion:
1. Higher ranking employee engaging in relationship with someone directly or indirectly under them might or might not (depending upon circumstances) be construed as sexual harassment.
2. Higher ranking employee transferring another employee directly or indirectly under them — without employee’s consultation or consent — due to feeling awkward/guilty/grossed out by sexual relationship relationship with them is almost defiantly harassment.
3. Attempting to coerce same employee from testifying at the hearing of a separate sexual harassment based partially on what might come out about her own indiscretions is absolutely, positively, 100% sexual harassment.
4. Being caught attempting to “smear” that same employee — both in the workplace and in public — in an attempt to discredit their testimony about all the above is what we you might refer to as a “it ain’t never gonna get to trial, because the insurance company is gonna settle out for a whole lotta money to make sure it don’t” case of sexual harassment.
These all hold true whether or not the sexual encounter was consensual.
(And as always, bear in mind that IANAL but rather a RM.)Report
3. Attempting to coerce same employee from testifying at the hearing of a separate sexual harassment based partially on what might come out about her own indiscretions is absolutely, positively, 100% sexual harassment.
4. Being caught attempting to “smear” that same employee — both in the workplace and in public — in an attempt to discredit their testimony about all the above is what we you might refer to as a “it ain’t never gonna get to trial, because the insurance company is gonna settle out for a whole lotta money to make sure it don’t” case of sexual harassment.
This is so impossibly incorrect I’m not even sure you’re living in the same universe as us.
Attempting to coerce people not to testify, and to smear them when they do testify, is wrong, and the first is almost certainly illegal, and the later might be, depending.
But those actions aren’t sexual harassment. Random crimes and/or unethical behavior committed to cover up sexual harassment are not magically sexual harassment. The crime of sexual harassment isn’t contagious.
Jesus Christ, words have actual meanings. Crimes have actual definitions. An act completely unrelated to sex at the time that the victim was no longer working for the party is pretty much not sexual harassment in any conceivable way.
(Incidentally, I’m not sure we have any evidence that #3 actually happened, Lewinsky was rather unwilling to testify entirely of her own volition, and would hardly need to be coerced. But that’s irrelevant to the fact that while any hypothetical coercion might be a crime, that crime is not ‘sexual harassment’.)Report
Pardon me for saying this, but you don’t know what you’re talking about.
If you don’t want to take me word for it, go talk to someone in your HR department tomorrow. Ask them this:
“If someone accuses of someone in the organization of sexual harassment, can we attempt to coerce them into keeping quiet about it? If they proceed, can we start spreading rumors about that person to make them seem slutty? Why or why not?”
Then be sure to tell them that words have meaning.Report
Well, best case scenario is he didn’t sexually harass her, but did sexually harass or assault a number of other women…and has still gotten a pass.
It’s like Bob Marley pleading that he’s an innocent man because he did not shoot the deputy.Report
Did Lewinsky accuse Clinton of sexual harassment? This analysis seems to rest on the idea that the initial relationship was, in fact, sexual harassment. @DavidTC‘s question, while bristly, is an important one. Does harassment that flows from a prior sexual relationship, but is not sexual itself, automatically become sexual harassment? Or is it simply harassment? I ask because I legitimately do not know.
I also think that we are playing a little loose with the details of what actually happened in real life. The administration certainly tried to get her our of the White House, but it’s not clear that it was an adverse action. Remember that they got Bill Richardson to offer her a job at the U.S. Mission to the United Nations. That sounds like it would have been advancement. There was certainly a cover up, or an attempt at a cover up, but is a cover up sexual harassment?Report
I didn’t say it was acceptable.
I said it wasn’t SEXUAL HARASSMENT.
Not all unacceptable workplace behaviors are sexual harassment.
There is an actual fucking legal definition of ‘sexual harassment’, and I assure you it doesn’t include ‘attempt to suborn perjury’. That’s an entirely different crime. (Assuming such a thing happened.)
And, as I pointed out, by the time your point 3 supposedly happened, and when 4 happened, Lewinsky didn’t work for the government anymore.
So if Clinton had wandered over to the government’s hypothetical HR department and said ‘Hey, I’m going to get someone whose testifying in a civil suit against me, who does not work for the government, to see if I can get her to lie. If I can’t, I will smear her.’, the hypothetical HR department would have responded with ‘Uh, why are you asking us about that?’Report
@j-r No, that’s wrong as well.
I’m away for a computer and can give a more thorough answer later if people still want it, but as a bookmark:
In a sexual harassment suit there are really two things being measured: the triggering event and the response from management/the organization to the claim. They are not different suits; they are part of the same complaint.
Most people assume that the liability is realized when, say, some guy tells his admin assistant that he will give her a raise if she sleeps with him; this is not correct. The liability occurs when the person/people who know that a complaint has been or should be filed do not investigate and take corrective action. This includes protecting not only the accuser but also anyone with any pertinent knowledge of the actions in question, up to and including the general conditions of the workplace that might have lead to harassment.
Regardless of what DTC thinks, all of his is part of the SH lawsuit and eventual EOCC ruling. Also regardless of what he thinks, it doesn’t matter if any of these people still work for he organization or not.Report
The liability occurs when the person/people who know that a complaint has been or should be filed do not investigate and take corrective action.
Erm, as has been pointed out in this very thread, Lewinsky did not make any sexual harassment claim. At all.
If Bill Clinton, or someone else, had acted as he did in response to such a claim, yes, that obviously would be part of the sexual harassment suit. That would be retaliation. However, nothing Clinton did can be construed to be retaliation to Lewinsky’s claims of sexual harassment, because, duh, she made no such claims.
It’s like you’re actually living in bizarro world or something, where Lewinsky was attempting to sue Clinton for sexual harassment, or filed some sort of EOCC complaint against him. She wasn’t. That is not the actual event that happened.
What happened is she was called as a witness in a lawsuit by a different person, a lawsuit she didn’t wish to testify in in the first place. And there’s very little evidence that Clinton did suborn perjury. It appears they basically conspired together to commit matching perjury, as neither wanted the truth to come out.
Even if Clinton had outright asked her to lie, asking someone to lie under oath does not magically turn into sexual harassment because earlier the asker had sex with that person.
Now, as for 2, you want to assert that moving her elsewhere was sexual harassment, as it was due to the relationship, I’m not entirely sure of that, as we don’t know the actual story there. (Maybe she just wanted to be in the Pentagon.) But, yes, I don’t dispute it…that *could* be part of some hypothetical case of sexual harassment if Lewinsky had wanted to assert sexual harassment…which, again, she didn’t, and doesn’t.
But claims 3 and 4 are still nonsense. 3 and 4 were an attempt to derail an unrelated civil trial, and had nothing to do with any hypothetical harassment committed against Lewinsky. You could replace the oral sex with ‘Bill Clinton leaves a video of time he sexually harassed other women in the VCR and she watches it’ and the story would play out the same….he still needs her not to testify, and he still needs her testimony to not be believed.
Again, possibly criminal. (Although in my mind, we sorta already settled the issue of Clinton committing perjury, and that’s really just an aspect of it. He did it, he was punished for it more than most people are, and it’s over.) And any slander is possibly a civil tort, and certainly shouldn’t be allowed by a president.
It’s just not sexual harassment.Report
@rtod, if that is your definition of sexual harassment, I accept it. It is not clear, however, that what you are describing is a very accurate description of what actually happened in the Lewinsky case. The atmosphere of the White House was never an issue of consideration at any point that Lewinsky worked there. Lewinsky was never the accuser. She was unwillingly pulled into a completely different investigation that was not about her and, in fact, she lied on behalf of Clinton right up until he very publicly threw her under the bus.
If I am reading the arguments here correctly, there needs to be at least one of two things demonstrated to prove a claim of sexual harassment. There has to be (1) an initial inappropriate action or series of actions that one party was either an unwilling or coerced participant and/or there has to be (2) some adverse action or series of actions that resulted from the former actions. It seems pretty obvious that number 1 did not happen and there has been only the assertion of number 2. I am happy to be corrected by anyone who has a better understanding of the events than I do.Report
@j-r
There does not need to be coercion; when one party is a boss with supervisory capacity over the other person, that’s always a problem. Even when they both consent. This is why the military has a full-out ban on relationships between personnel and COs. If the relationship goes sour, the work environment suffers.
Secondly, the adverse action occurred first when Lewinsky was reassigned. And of course, even worse occurred when Star began investigating and the relationship went public. Personally, I feel the worst of it came from the impeachment hearings and the media frenzy, what Bill did was down right creepy, but the biggest problem for Lewinsky was the public trashing she received. That, in and of itself, was a massive amount of harassment; and while I might not expect a barely more than 20-year-old woman to understand the potential for what happened, Clinton should have known what he was potentially exposing her to happen; he’d already seen the appetite the press had for this stuff during his presidential campaign.Report
Sometimes I wonder what it is like to be Monica Lewinsky. I mean, you only get one life, and this is hers. What opportunities has she lost, just to feel normal on any particular day? To just go shopping, to get a normal job, live your normal day to day? Does she get to do those things like I get to do those things?
The men she meets, how do the treat her? What do they expect from her? It is even possible for her to meet a man who just likes her?
Many celebrities deal with this stuff, but they have some compensation: they are (often) revered; plus this is a life they chose. Monica Lewinsky did not choose this.
It’s really fucked up and horrible. It makes me want to cry.Report
While there might possibly be situations where having a relationship with someone who was your subordinate in the same organization wouldn’t be sexual harassment (perhaps if there were regulatory barriers in place to you being able to affect their promotion/demotion/transfer/work evaluation/etc.), when there’s a power differential as large as “president of the United States” and “unpaid intern”, I would read that as being inherently coercive. There’s just no way that power considerations don’t come into that.
If the Clinton sex scandal made that kind of behaviour by a president less accepted, that’s all to the good. Makes the White House a safer place to work. Some of the stuff that’s become public about Kennedy makes my skin crawl.Report
Fine, it’s a problem. A problem however does not equate to sexual harassment. And I’m not sure you want to use the standards of the military to make points about civilian workplaces. There is a lot of stuff in the UCMJ to which no civilian ought to be subject.
I’ve seen nothing more than an assertion that the action was adverse. Lewinsky was even offered a job at USUN that seems like it would have been a promotion.
A person cannot be sexually harassed by the media or by the general public.
I have no problem accepting that Clinton’s relationship with Lewinsky was inappropriate, but it wasn’t sexual harassment. I have no problem accepting that the administration’s treatment of her was deplorable, but all of that happened after she left the government. And I have no problem accepting that the press’ treatment of Lewinsky was less than admirable. Unless someone can present some actual evidence, however, I continue to maintain that she was not the victim of sexual harassment.Report
The worst of it was
1. Someone Lewinsky thought of as a friend she could confide in taped all of their conversations and turned them over to a third party (Kenneth Starr.).
2. Starr made all of the tapes public without a thought for how that would affect her. There was no need to do that to make his case; it was purely an attack on Clinton with Lewinsky as acceptable collateral damage.
That’s not sexual harassment, just complete shittiness.Report
When all this went down, I was only barely seasoned as a lawyer and had never handled a sexual harassment case. That has changed in the years between then and now. I think that’s why at the time, it seemed an astonishing ado over a married guy getting a blowjob.
Maybe it would be helpful to remember that sexual harassment is one of several species of gender discrimination. Sexual discrimination, in turn, is one genus of a kinds of tort called an “unlawful employment practice.”
If the hypothetical private CEO transfers the consenting intern to a less-desirable position after the tryst, that’s treating her differently than he would have treated a subordinate with whom he’d not have had a tryst. That is gender discrimination. In some jurisdictions, the CEO doing that, by itself, puts liability on the employer. In others (or under Title VII), you need some sort of endorsement or ratification by other actors within the organization to impute liability to the entity.
For those of you playing along at home, do we have entity liability in the Lewinsky matter? Yes, yes we do. Even if the intern was an enthusiastic participant in the initial tryst? That’s how you can have no liability for the sex act, but still have liability for gender discrimination.Report
I think we’re getting weighed down on the wrong things here.
Tod’s piece seems to be asserting that liberals who didn’t view the Lewinsky situation as workplace sexual harassment are guilty of misogyny. Some of us are pushing back against that because we find Clinton’s behavior deplorable on a number of levels but not necessarily fitting the definition of “sexual harassment” as we understand it. And we might be understanding that term wrong — particularly from a legal sense — but using words slightly differently does not necessarily give rise to misogyny. No one here is defending Clinton or blaming Lewinsky. Those of us (in this thread at least) who’ve pushed back against the notion of this being sexual harassment have done so on definitional grounds, not on moral or ethical grounds.Report
@kazzy
I think I agree. It’s not just the thinks individual actors did; either. What Bill did may not have been harassment as defined by the law, or so says @burt-likko. Hillary’s response was generous, yet Hillary swept Lewinsky up in the vast right-wing conspiracy instead of speaking of her as a victim of it. Tripp betrayed Lewinsky to Starr, who used her as a tool and not a person in his multi-year effort to unseat a legitimately elected president. The press repeatedly violated her dignity. And just imagine the tone of comments targeted at Lewinsky on line.
It’s all those individual actions, each in itself hurtful, aggregated into a mountain that rises to heady levels of harassment, and harassment that will probably hound Lewinsky for the rest of her life. Every time there’s some mention of her in the press, there’s the litany of jokes that follow. I’ve watched people in bars, drunk and having a great time, go at Lewinsky as if she were just the butt of a joke and not a real person.
But she is a real person, and I don’t have to respect her poor choices, but I think it’s important to defend her from a culture that finds it so easy to see her as a joke because she’s a sexual person and acted upon that with the wrong person.Report
@zic
Very good points. It is fair to criticize the liberal establishment for their treatment of Lewinsky. It was indeed deplorable. How much of it was motivated by misogyny and how much by politics (and how much the presence of the former allowed them to engage in the latter) is hard to know, but suffice it to say there was a healthy dose of both and those who threw Lewinsky under the bus because it was politically expedient to do so should be shamed and ashamed. Whether they were being specifically or explicitly misogynistic matters less than recognizing that the fair and proper treatment of women was low on their priority list, a problem in and of itself and something that rightly calls their character into question.Report
“Those of us (in this thread at least) who’ve pushed back against the notion of this being sexual harassment have done so on definitional grounds, not on moral or ethical grounds.”
And I think Tod’s other point is that nobody would be parsing this down to a nat’s nit if it weren’t focused on the center of power in the Democratic party.Report
I think I linger at the point I do because Tod’s clear-eyed analysis chagrins me.
I’ve used the Clinton-Lewinsky tryst when teaching sexual harassment to students and clients. The superior’s sexual conduct is welcomed by the subordinate, so likely no sex harassment. Questionable judgment by the superior officer, but in this case not an unlawful employment practice.
But this was incomplete at best — Tod reminds me that what comes after may count for much more than the tryst itself. In past instruction, I’ve elided that facet of the story because everyone wants to pay attention to the sex act itself. So I feel bad for dispensing incomplete instruction and advice. I should have done better. I will do better in the future and thank Tod for the reminder.Report
Tod,
Hm. it seems clear that you are categorizing the harassment as “related to sexual matters” when you say “sexual harassment.” This may be the legal term, but I kinda understand why everyone else is kinda confused. Because however adverse a forced personnel transfer is, it’s not in any way sexual.Report
@kolohe
I disagree. For myself, at least. I don’t give two shits about Clinton (Bill). He was President before I really knew what was going on and I have no particular attachment or fondness for him. I care a bit about Clinton (Hillary) insofar as she might be the Presidential candidate for the party I prefer.
What bothered me was Tod’s implication that calling what happened between Bill and Lewinsky anything other than sexual harassment amounted to misogyny. I don’t think it necessarily follows that thinking “consent” matters when determining whether “harassment” occurred is necessarily a misogynistic position. If I’ve misread @rtod in this regard, my apologies for the confusion.
Bill is a dog. He’s a monster who abused his power and made a habit of mistreating women. If he didn’t harass Lewinsky, he certainly harassed other women. Nothing excuses this. My objection to Tod’s statement has nothing to do with Clinton and everything to do with those he is applying to.Report
@kim
Because however adverse a forced personnel transfer is, it’s not in any way sexual.
Yes and no.
Tod is correct in that, if there was sexual harassment before that, and the transfer was in some way related to that, either as retaliation for claiming harassment, or turning down harassment, or even just to remove their ‘access’ to each other, that transfer would, indeed, be part of the sexual harassment suit. It is not sexual harassment itself, but if it’s a result of that, it’s part of the damages.
Of course, as I have pointed out, you sorta need the original claim of sexual harassment to exist for that to compound it, and Lewinsky hasn’t made any such claim. So the entire thing rather falls apart there.
Although, as Burt pointed out, even without her asserting any sort of sexual harassment, that could still be gender discrimination. Although I ask: Do we actually have any evidence it was an adverse transfer? Do we know how long interns usually last at the White House? Once you get into gender discrimination by itself, you have to have some evidence of what the norm was.
The idea that the administration would cause any sort of harm to Lewinsky, exactly as she was being called to testify and they needed her to lie under oath, seems rather dubious in my mind. This is the same administration that seemed to go to extreme length to try to track down a private sector job for her when she left the Pentagon. (Although admittedly I have no idea of how much they’d help a random ex-intern that *wasn’t* about to testify.)
I mean, stupider things have happened, I’m not trying to say it couldn’t happen, and maybe they thought getting her away from the POTUS so ‘he didn’t keep doing it’ was more important (Which would indeed be gender discrimination and compound any hypothetical sexual harassment.), but I’m not willing to just assume that without someone producing something to that effect.Report
That is a pretty big if in the Lewinsky case. I defer to you guys on the legal analysis, but I don’t get the sense that you understand the nature of WH internships and political appointments. For a number of reasons the private sector analogy does not really work.
I am a civil servant. It is much harder to fire me than it is a private sector employee. By law, my management has to make clearly aware of my performance criteria and I have to be warned in advance of any adverse personnel moves. And all of this has to be documented. Political appointees exist at the exact opposite end of the spectrum. The work under an extreme form of at-will employment and they get moved into different positions all the time for any number of reasons that have nothing to do with their performance.
It would be very difficult to establish in court that Lewinsky was treated adversely. Look at the facts of her time in Washington. She graduated from Lewis and Clark college with BA in psychology and landed an internship in the Office of the White House Chief of Staff. That internship turned into a paid position in the WH public affairs office. She was moved to the Pentagon, but continued to visit the WH regularly. And someone went to bat to get Bill Richardson to offer her a position at USUN. As DavidTC pointed out, her behavior is much more in line with a co-conspirator than with a victim.
At some point the administration turned on Lewinsky, but that happened after she was no longer employed by the administration. So yes, the administration behaved deplorably in regards to protecting Clinton and throwing Lewinsky under a bus, but the claim that this is an obvious case of sexual harassment seems very forced.Report
@kazzy — I think your problem is this: you are seeing “misogyny” as something only bad people do, as individual acts of willful hate. But that is not the case. Try analyzing the situation this way: misogyny fuels what happens to women in our patriarchal culture. It lies deep and its perpetrators are usually aware of it.
And there is not doubt that Monica Lewinsky has been the target of bitter, sustained, and extreme misogyny. For some examples, simply Google her name.
Now, Tod’s point seems to be this: the liberal establishment actively encouraged this misogyny against Ms. Lewinsky for callous political gain.
It seems abundantly clear that he is correct.Report
@veronica-dire
Good points, all of them. I am no doubt guilty of misogyny in any number of ways.
But I’m focusing on a very narrow slice of Tod’s piece here: his assertion that holding the position that people in disparate positions of power can engage in a consensual relationship that does not qualify as sexual harassment are necessarily being misogynistic. That is the particular part I’m really struggling with.
If Lewinsky says, “I was not sexually harassed,” it seems more misogynistic than not to say, “Yes you were!”Report
@kazzy
Even if it was consensual, even if she made the first move, it’s the responsibility of the supervisor to not take advantage of the opportunity. The teacher does not react to the high schools student with a crush. The 25-year old does not respond to the 15-year-old with a crush. The misogyny* here is more akin to statutory rape; it’s that the employee, the student, the younger potential romantic partner may consent, but the power differential means the responsible party should know better and step away from the overtures.
*and I’m not sure misogyny is the correct term here, except that it’s generally men with a position of authority over women, so it falls into the misogyny bucket. In Lewinsky’s case, the overall response was highly misogynistic, however; and it was not necessarily Clinton’s predatory behavior in accepting her advances (presumed she made that first move), it’s the response to the fact that things happened that’s misogynistic. He kept his presidency despite a proportionally small amount of mud dragging (small, in context of keeping the most powerful office in the world). She, on the other hand, basically wears a scarlet letter the remainder of her days; she’ll probably get an obit in the NYT laying the story out.Report
@kazzy — You are trying to make simple something that is very complicated.
But yes, the victims of sexual crimes should be given much leeway in naming their own experiences. But at the same time, we should provide these people (usually but not always women) with the tools to understand what happened to them, the proper names for these things.
And this is really tricky. And it is something I’ve handled first hand, both as a victim and with others who were a victim. And there are no easy answers.
But Ms. Lewinsky has been made the victim of an inexcusable crime, from Clintion, from Tripp, from Star, on and on. And Clinton was a serial sexual abuser. And Lewinsky was a target of his sexual abuse. And for that we ruined her life.
Somehow we have to figure out how to respect her and at the same time call things by their proper names.Report
@veronica-dire and @zic
I don’t really disagree with anything you’ve said here. You make really good points. I’m being hyperspecific and probably splitting hairs more than is necessary.
As I read @tod-kelly , it seemed he was proposing a litmus test: “Call what Clinton did to Lewinsky sexual harassment or you are a misogynist.” Maybe that is an unfair reading of him (It seems rather un-Tod-like, so it very well may be). To the extent he or anyone thinks that, I would continue to push back against that very specific line of thinking.
That said, yes, what Clinton did was wrong (whether or not it qualifies as SH) and what was done to Lewinsky by scores and scores and scores of people was similarly wrong. Not just on a, “That is no way to treat a person” level, but also on a, “This reinforces layers of misogyny that is inherent to our culture” level.Report
@jim-heffman –
I actually agree with you, on all counts. I felt so then, I feel so now. I was a conservative when the scandal began, and a liberal by the time it ended.
What is more interesting though, is the part you left out, the part which caused me to shift my political allegiances.
Is it obvious this scandal should encourage people to vote Republican?
Other than the obvious benefit of being able to embarrass an opponent, what does a sex scandal mean? I ask that since its given that they occur with regularity all across the political spectrum.
Are the Republicans asserting that they are the best choice for women? That they offer more respect and self-determination? That they are the best hope for minimum wage employees, that they offer more benefit to those who are powerless and disenfranchised?
See, that was the trigger for me, the straw that caused my latent disgust with the conservative movement to flame into open contempt.
That after 6 years of a Clinton presidency, that’s all they had. They couldn’t find another weapon, another complaint, another criticism of Clinton other than a sex scandal, the same sort they themselves had glossed over a million times themselves.
All the criticisms we had of the fear of a Liberal President failed to materialize. Russia didn’t invade, dogs and cats didn’t start living together. But Bill behaved like a jerk, and we were supposed to impeach him, and presumably install a Republican in his place.
It isn’t a charge of hypocrisy, although there’s plenty of that. Its the charge that without phony ginned up outrage of FEMA camps, Ameros, Benghazi, and God knows what else, you got nothin’.
Things are better for most Americans as a result of Bill Clinton, and Obama. Women know that, working people know that, young people know that. So all the crocodile tears from Rush Limbaugh about Ms. Lewinsky are just bullshit, and we know that too.Report
“Is it obvious this scandal should encourage people to vote Republican?”
If the Democrats are going to sell themselves as the pro-feminist pro-woman anti-privilege no-excuses party then they need to actually be that party. If they’re going to say “Republicans will abuse their power to literally force you to have sex with them and then claim that you’re a crazy liar” then they need to not lionize party members who act that way, or minimize and excuse and hide it when they do. Because people are going to take a hard look at the Democratic Party and say “you know, they can’t deliver on women’s lib, why should we trust them to deliver on any other thing?”Report
The obvious problem, Jim, is that while D’s fail on the Clinton thing they are far better on all sorts of other issues then R’s. If a person thinks Uni HC is a good idea or is strongly pro-choice or can’t deal with the variety of hateful misogynistic attitudes in the R and also dislikes Clinton what do they do. Vote R out of personal dislike and spite their own self-interest.Report
“while D’s fail on the Clinton thing…”
Sure honey, I hit you sometimes. But I’m such a good, kind, loving guy all those other times, aren’t I? Doesn’t that make up for the bad stuff that I sometimes do?Report
So let me get this straight. Republicans can be as shitty as they please and we should still prefer them over Democrats as long as there’s any Dem anywhere that isn’t absolutely perfect in all respects?
Uh… Why, exactly?Report
@road-scholar exactly.
It’s that damned liberal purity test that — if the liberal doesn’t pass on all liberal issues, them other liberals should vote for the conservative.
Dems don’t have to play the purity game, and Democratic candidates do not have to be the candidates conservatives would like them to be. Plus, I don’t see Republicans flocking to vote for D candidates when their own nominees are RINOs and fail Republican purity tests.Report
“I am better than you because you do (thing)!”
“Yes, but you also do (thing).”
“We’re talking about YOU, not ME!”Report
“Russia didn’t invade,”
Well, true, I haven’t had an opportunity to shout “Wolverines!” in the Rockies yet, but Russia has invaded as many countries in the current presidential administration as the previous one.Report
In fairness LWA, while I generally agree with your sentiments the subject of this article is about Bill Clinton, Ms. Lewinsky, the left and the principles of the left. The GOP isn’t even at this table; they’re at the kids table back in kitchen banging their plastic spoons and flinging creamed cauliflower around. I don’t think they can be invoked in this argument effectively.
Tod’s point is that, whoever he was, the acts Bill Clinton did constitute sexual harassment and inappropriate behavior. I think he’s successfully made that point and that some people on the left have definitely been threading a difficult line that’s either cynical, practical, hypocritical or all of the above and that they should speak a lot more softly on the subject of Ms. Lewinsky.
Now, what Tod didn’t do (and didn’t try to do I think) is link this subject very strongly to current political concerns. That’s fine of course, he doesn’t need to.Report
It’s simultaneously possible for the Republicans to be completely insincere about this, and for it to matter. Events in politics can matter even if they don’t make you change your vote from one party to another.
This is something we should be sensitive to, because of late it seems like any possible criticism of Obama – for indiscriminate drone strikes, for mass surveillance, for attacks on whistleblowers – are brushed off by Democrats with “well, Republicans would be worse! And any criticism of Democrats gives the Republicans a better chance to win, so shut up or else you’re just helping the Republicans!”
That, to me, feels like putting the cart before the horse. I support political principles (and moral principles) and policies first. When I support a party, it flows from those principles. And if the party violates those principles, then I will oppose their actions. Putting party first and principles second doesn’t make sense to me.Report
Only justification I can come up with for the term “Lewinski scandal” – there was a war a while back that is called “the American war” in Vietnam, and “the Vietnam war” in America, for what I think are obvious reasons.Report
I think this is right, if you mean what I think you do. Calling it “The Clinton Scandal” makes one wonder which scandal we’re talking about. Calling it “The Clinton Sex Scandal” sadly doesn’t help (or “The Clinton Sexual Harassment Scandal”). They are sufficient in number that you almost have to go by the woman’s name. I’m not sure what else you could call it, but I’m open to ideas.
I don’t think this does much damage to Tod’s overall thesis, however.Report
Exactly as you & Snarky McSnarkSnark say.
Bill Clinton was in the public eye, and in several scandalous and manufactured-scandalous incidents, over at least a decade; from the perspective of the general public, Lewinsky was the distinguishing characteristic of this scandal, versus all the others that also involved Clinton.
Monica Lewinsky and her friends and family might usefully refer to the sorry business as the “Clinton scandal” to distinguish it whatever other private dramas may have happened in the family over the years.
And, as you say, it doesn’t weaken Tod’s thesis in the least.Report
Well, there were so many “Clinton” scandals being manufactured in that time (Travelgate, the “murders” of Vince Foster and Ron Brown, Whitewater, etc, etc, etc.) that calling it the “Lewinsky Scandal” makes sense if only for its economy of expression.Report
Will beat me to it…Report
Douglas Adams:
“…On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people.”
“Odd,” said Arthur, “I thought you said it was a democracy.”
“I did,” said Ford. “It is.”
“So,” said Arthur, hoping he wasn’t sounding ridiculously obtuse, “why don’t people get rid of the lizards?”
“It honestly doesn’t occur to them,” said Ford. “They’ve all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they’ve voted in more or less approximates to the government they want.”
“You mean they actually vote for the lizards?”
“Oh yes,” said Ford with a shrug, “of course.”
“But,” said Arthur, going for the big one again, “why?”
“Because if they didn’t vote for a lizard,” said Ford, “the wrong lizard might get in.”Report
Nice.
Thank you for the small dose of Adams; I miss him.Report
Heh. He’s ripping off Tommy Douglas. (Or, more likely, it’s a common idea that they both came up with.)Report
Again, thank you.
This is exactly right.
Now I’ll still vote for Hillary Clinton if she’s the Democratic nominee; and in the primary, I’ll hope there’s a fresher option. Because the Republican alternatives, particularly when it comes to women’s concerns, are pretty repulsive.
But what you’ve outlines here is repulsive, too. And even as I’ll support her for office, I’ll be pretty vocal: this slut shaming was and is reprehensible.Report
Yes, two things are possible at once: Bill Clinton is a sleazoid and Hillary an enabler, and that she might be the best choice running.
About which, we are allowed to complain, but still, when it’s time to cast your vote…Report
@zic @veronica-dire
Both of your comments are a prime reason why the quality of prospective cannidates remains poor. Voting for the least offensive cannidate is still voting for crap. This does nothing but perpetuate the status quo and you get more of the same crap because it tells politicans that they can get away with crap like this since voters won’t hold them accountable.Report
When the perfect candidate shows up I’ll adjust my strategy.Report
Road,
Warren’s a damn fine candidate. So’s Steve Cohen. Heidi from up in North Dakota… there’s plenty of people I could vote for without reservations.
(If, that is, I didn’t live in Pennsylvania. ALL our politicians are mediocre and blah.)Report
Damon,
When you find a way to change the electorate, please let me know. I’m sick of Casey, Junior! (but “we remember his name, so we’ll vote for him”).Report
@Road Scholar
Glad to hear your part of the problem not the solution. 🙂Report
@kim
There are good examples on the interweb. Gary North had one I read a while back out how the electorate can hold contender’s feet to the fire.Report
Okay, as one of the actual reasonable people, zic, can you actually point me *to* some documentation of this ‘slut shaming’ on the part of Hillary?
Because I don’t remember any such a thing happening, and everyone keeps *talking* about it, but I have yet to see a single quote from Hillary, at all.
I asked this in the last article, and didn’t get an answer.Report
@davidtc do you remember Gennifer Flowers? Early in the campaign, she claimed she had a 12-year affair with Clinton, while she was an Arkansas State employee.
When asked about Lewinsky:
Source for both: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/01/16791796-the-making-of-hillary-clinton-15-moments-that-define-her-public-life?lite
Papers were recently found in a cache where she called Lewinsky “narcissistic loony toon”.
So Clinton’s misdeed here, (if it is a misdeed, we can certainly debate that), is perhaps standing by her man when she shoulda been saying, ‘you know, this is not how we should be treating women.’
I say this recognizing she’s between a rock and a hard place; very much a product of her time, and without her standing by Bill as she did, it’s unlikely he’d have won the oval office. I think it’s a sad thing that we live in a world where she cannot admit to a somewhat open marriage; their marriage certainly seems sound and strong, but his infidelity is part of it. It’s like everyone knows he’s a philanderer, but it cannot be said out loud. If she wants to be Potus, she’s going to have to find a way to thread this needle, I think; find a way to recognize that personally, he was unable to live up to the standards of feminism he supported in public policy and harmed individual women in a very unacceptable way; and she abetted that harm.Report
Erm, two seconds of googling “narcissistic loony toon” produced the quite obvious fact that Hillary said that in private, and it just now came out.
That’s evidence of a woman badmouthing someone who had sex with her husband, to a friend.
This is not evidence of her participating any sort of concentrated public attack to discredit Lewinsky, which is what other people here are asserting.
And I have no idea how ‘slut shaming’ enters into it at all. Not a single word of that has anything to do with sex. It is, perhaps, using ableist language toward mental illness, but it was the 1990s, so perhaps we could cut her some slack for not seeing the future.
And I don’t understand how the Flowers quote is even supposed to be insulting to anyone.Report
@davidtc I really don’t know what you’re pushing for here; but Hillary stood by and watched as women who’d been hit on by her husband while he was in a position of authority over them be slut shamed by the Democratic machine and the media. She may not have specifically said something that’s the equivalent of a smoking gun here (and I don’t blame her, it would have erupted), but she let those women get publicly trashed. To her, that was the lesser of evils.
I can understand this, too. But like I said, now, she’s seeming to run for office herself. And her actions, in a world where the progress of women’s rights is getting a lot of push back, matter. To me, she needs to show growth here.
Doing nothing when you see a wrong being done, or allowing the wrong to continue because it’s the lesser of two evils still leaves the wrong a wrong. When you wanna be Potus, you have to deal with that stuff. Particularly when the domain of that wrong is the place where, supposedly, you’re on the side of right.Report
I really don’t know what you’re pushing for here
I’m not pushing for anything. I was just completely confused as to what the hell people were talking about. I remembered Lewinsky commenting about Hillary’s insult of her, but I had no idea what it was, I assumed Hillary had made a public comment about her book. But then people started talking about how Hillary had acted in the past, and I thought I had missed something.
Now that you’ve clarified it as ‘She remained silent in public, and said a mean thing once on the phone to a friend’, I’m incredibly annoyed.
Uh, guys? Are you seriously wondering why she didn’t leap to the defense of someone that helped cause major problems in her marriage? Hillary had her own things to deal with during that, and perhaps should be given a pass in this specific instance based on how it affected her personally.
There is literally an entire establishment of people that should be condemned before her. Literally every other Democrat had more of an obligation to say something.
How about we start with the actual people who attacked Lewinsky, and condemning them? Then we can move on to the Democratic leaders who weren’t married to someone who had sex with Lewinsky and has a semi-valid reason to loathe her?
Seriously, this is amazing as something that people are complaining about. No, Hillary Clinton did not have to defend Lewinsky from unfair attacks in the 90s. Other people needed to be doing that.
Now, there might be a point there if people were attacking Lewinsky now (Which a few are.) and they were Democrats and it was four years later and Hillary was president and the presumptive leader of the party. Then, she might have to put aside her disdain and say something. But, right now, Hillary is officially nobody, and doesn’t need to run around commenting on how some random liberal blogs are unfairly attacking Lewinsky.
And if elected Democrats start to do that, Obama should probably step in and say something, considering, you know, he’s still in charge.Report
I’m with David here. If you’re going to accuse Hillary Clinton of slut-shaming, that you’ve got to have something more than “she didn’t actively defend women with whom her husband cheated on her”. You’ve got no examples of her making any public statements, or public campaigns, to discredit or comment on the morality of any of the women Bill Clinton harassed.Report
“If you’re going to accuse Hillary Clinton of slut-shaming…”
Welp
Rush said some vaguely bad stuff about Sandra Fluke
And that means all Republicans always slut-shame
So there you are, I guessReport
Calling someone a whore and telling her to show you her tits for the offence of testifying in front of Congress on a policy matter is cruel, mysogynistic, and disgusting, not “vaguely” sexist.
And then a bunch of Republican commentators and spokespeople decided to defend him for saying those things.
Do not bring up that matter again in a way that tries to defend him or them; you’ll only make yourself look bad.Report
The real scandals are 1) how Monica Lewinsky got her internship in the first place and 2) how fake “scandals” allowed Moneyed Interests distract attention from how they were waging war on the working class.
1) white house internships are very difficult to get many ivy leaguers aren’t able to get them yet Monica Lewinsky was somehow able to get one while attending Santa Monica Community College. people like Lewinsky play by different rules than the rest of us, they use their influence in government enrich themselves at our expense. the so called “scandal” was just Lewinsky taking one for the team in order to prevent the public from focusing on more important subjects. she is very wealthy today and she was not harmed at all
2) while the public was distracted by fake scandals like Travelgate, whitewater, vince foster and Monica Lewinsky, Clinton advisers such like Robert Rubin, Rahm Emanuel, Dan Glickman, Gene Sperling, Alice Rivlin, Janet Yellen, Jay Footlik and Many Grunwald were able to enact policies that benefited the Capitalist Class at the expense of the working class. these policies are:
NAFTA Allowed Plutocrats to fire Americans in order to move factories to Mexico. at the same time if allowed agribusiness to destroy mexican farmers with low cost grain, this forced people who had been in the mexican agricultural sector to move elsewhere. many of these people later immigrated to the United States providing the Moneyed Interests with more cheep labor.
the telecom act of 1996 allowed Moneyed Interests to take complete control of the media. as a result of this act the Dixie Chicks and others were blacklisted for opposing the Neocons war in Iraq and as a result few people are willing to speak out today.
the Gramm-Leach-Biley Act allowed Internationalist Bankers to get rich while creating a housing bubble that destroyed the economy while at the same time charging people 30% interests on credit cards.
the Media is controlled by the Capitalist Class so they did everything they could to distract the public from what the Moneyed Interests were doing. why is Monica Lewinsky suddenly in the news again? because Occupy Wall Street was gaining traction talking about the the 1% is screwing the 99%. the Plutocrats don’t want attention focused on themselves so they brought up Lewinsky again in hopes the public would stop talking about inequality.Report
Umm, trollicious.Report
Actually it was an army of ticked off transsexuals who are controlling your minds with satellites.
Totally true! You can read about it in my newsletter.Report
“Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.”
If you ever do have a newsletter, or blog, or some such, I really would subscribe/read/etc. Thanks in advance.
Report
Satellite TRANSmissions.Report
Nice work, Mr. Kelly.Report
Thank you for that elaboration on what the whole Clinton scandal was about. I was a kid when the whole thing was going on, and the only thing I really picked up about it was that the US president had a sex scandal, along with the general sense that the opposition party was overreacting to it to a massive degree. After I started paying attention to politics, I never bothered to find out much more about it, because sex scandals of former presidents didn’t seem like important or relevant news when there were things like the Patriot Act and the Iraq War going on.
I wasn’t aware of how many other women had come forward with accusations, and I really wasn’t aware of Clinton and his administration responding by slandering/smearing them for doing so, or of how they altered Lewinsky’s internship. And I agree that all of that is serious, that it raises this above the level of a simple affair or sex scandal. It’s a more systematic, deliberate, and longstanding abuse of power than I had understood it to be.
I still don’t take issue with the ThinkProgress post that you linked in your previous post, because it’s not “making it about what Lewinsky did”; it’s discussing what Monica Lewinsky experienced, how she describes and interprets that experience, and how our discussion of the whole thing fits into broader considerations about how we should treat people who have experienced sexual harassment or sexual assault.
Aside from that article, the first ThinkProgress ones you find when you search “Monica Lewinsky” are 1) one mentioning a sexist comment about her from conservative commentator Richard Cohen as one among many pieces of evidence that he has a long record of bigotry; 2) the scandal used as a marker of time (“[x] happened before you had even heard the name Monica Lewinsky” and 3) one that defends her, albeit in passing (giving her as an example of women that have suffered “slut shaming” after liaisons with male politicians were discovered).
So while you may accuse them of having insufficiently grappled with Clinton’s actions and culpability, I’m still not grasping why you find those pieces problematic in and of themselves. Where Lewinsky is mentioned, it’s sympathetically or, at worst, neutrally.Report
My husband’s first wife dumped him for the vice president of the company where she worked. Twenty years later they are still married. Sometimes an affair is really just an affair and not sexual harassment. There were large sums of money beng waved about in the search for dirt on Clinton and that makes at least some of the claims at least a little bit suspect.
That being said, I’d rather be groped by Bob Packwood who led the fight for policies that were positive for women as a group than be treated with respect by Rick Santorum whose preferred policies are very much to the detriment of women.Report
Yep,
Just as several women commented that they’d be perfectly willing to give Bill Clinton a blow job for all the forward moment on women’s rights. Perhaps I’m misremembering, but I seem to recall they weren’t single women either.
I guess it’s preferable to be harassed by someone “on your team” than get respect from an opponent. Classy.Report
That must be an interesting definition of “respect” Damon.Report
The article use of phrase “the Clintons” is grossly intellectual dishonest. Blaming a wife for her husband’s sexual harassment counts ad misogyny in my book.Report
He doesn’t blame HRC for Bill Clinton’s infidelity. He blames HRC, to the extent that she is a subject in this post, for being a part of the group that responded to the accusations by demonizing the women.Report
being a part of the group that responded to the accusations by demonizing the women
How? What specific demonizing of women did Hilary participate in? I think Tod’s post is fairly accurate in it’s accusations of Bill and the Clinton campaign, but I don’t see any of Hilary’s fingerprints on this aside from her being his wife and not publicly splitting.Report
The campaign (and political wing of the presidency) is the “group” to which I refer. It’s possible to say that she knew nothing about this or was the overruled objector to it. Tod is assuming this is not the case. Subsequent comments that have been revealed, as I understand, support this argument, though it is not proven.Report
Tod,
Were you of the opinion at the time that President Clinton should have resigned for having sexually harassed a White House intern? Are you of that opinion now?Report
I’m with Dick Morris, he should have come clean and moved on. Instead he lied about it.Report
I’m with Dick Morris
That should give you significant pause.Report
Even a broken clock…Report
I won’t speak for Tod but to me this is a tough question.
If the CEO of my client did the equivalent, it’s an easy answer. Bye. Intolerable conduct is, by definition, intolerable.
The President of the United States is NOT the CEO of a private company. In some ways he should be held to an even higher scandal; in some other ways (e.g., the people chose him) he has a degree of immunity. And there was GOP hounding that, institutionally, needed to be defeated. The play book hasn’t really changed since, but Obama hasn’t been nearly so squirreley as was Clinton, and the Senate is too closely divided, so there’s less ammunition to fuel a shot at impeachment.Report
Heh. Autocorrect strikes again, most interestingly. POTUS is in some ways held to a higher “standard”, of course, not “scandal.”Report
“And there was GOP hounding that, institutionally, needed to be defeated. ”
Why?
One of the elegancies of our form of gov’t is that it specifically allows actions of this sort, and some may think that this was an inappropriate reason for the opposition party to go after a president, they are the opposition after all.Report
The President must resist impeachment, lest impeachment a become commonplace whenever Congress is dissatisfied with the President. The partisan permutations do not matter here: the institutions have diametrically opposed interests in strengthening or weakening the ability of this check on Presidential power through precedent.Report
Burt, the people also elected the representatives. Again showing that this was what they wanted.Report
“If the CEO of my client did the equivalent, it’s an easy answer. Bye. Intolerable conduct is, by definition, intolerable.
The President of the United States is NOT the CEO of a private company. In some ways he should be held to an even higher scandal; in some other ways (e.g., the people chose him) he has a degree of immunity. ”
Note that Bush I and Reagan would have gotten into a lot of trouble over illegal drug-dealing and gun-running.
Bush II would have been the first CEO to have literally taken down the leading megacorp of the time.Report
So what you’re saying is the balance of powers depends on all sides exerting their power. That is a congress has a duty to try and impeach, if they find anything impeachable, and a president has a duty to fight it, and this holds regardless of the actual case?Report
@matty
No that’s not what I’m saying.Report
@burt-likko OK would you mind spelling it out for me? I’m clearly a bit slow on this one.Report
@matty it is necessary from executive’s perspective to disincentivize impeachment so that executive can get on with its business. It should be rendered politically unappealing (that is to say, craven and basely partisan, as with Johnson) and unlikely to succeed. If there appears to be merit to the reason proffered for disqualification of the incumbent a well as a substantial chance of success, the Nixon route mitigates that loss of executive prestige: Nixon resigned rather than be removed.
Clinton was politically right to resist impeachment, able as he was to portray the matter as partisan and unprincipled, and to place the focus on the sexual encounter with Lewinsky rather than on his own conduct. The Republicans, by failing to somehow vindicate her or portray her as a victim, played into that strategy. Result: enough people bought in to the “none of our business” meme that Clinton survived the trial.Report
One additional dynamic is that the whole Clarence Thomas/Anita Hill hearings were close enough to within living memory that you (yes, even you) could still go to your local library and look in the saved Time and Newsweek issues and see what pundits had said then.
What’s the difference between how Clarence Thomas treated Anita Hill and how Bill Clinton treated Paula Jones? Well, there were articles with the various firebreathers who took Thomas to task and how they explained how they were splitting hairs when it came to Bill Clinton. (Gloria Steinem’s hairsplitting was paraphrased as the “One Grope Rule” or “One Free Grope”.)
There were a lot of things said about Clarence Thomas that, had they not been said (imagine, if you will, Douglas Ginsburg’s marijuana use not been publicized), would have resulted in Clinton’s scandal being less of a scandal.Report
The Democrats hypocritically portrayed Anita Hill as a victim but Lewinsky as a willing participant. The Republicans were far more consistent and honest in calling Hill a delusional liar and Lewinsky a stupid slut.Report
Well, I see Paula Jones/Juanita Broderick as more interesting for the example. Monica Lewinsky is only interesting insofar as whether you see Clinton as having a “pattern” of treating underlings a certain way.
“But Lewinsky was enthusiastic!”
Yeah. I suppose that’s why I find Paula Jones and Juanita Broderick as more interesting for the example. And, I suppose, why you find Monica Lewinsky as more interesting for it.Report
This is the description of what the left is currently doing that would qualify it as joining/participating in the War on Women. Yet there’s no evidence in this post or the previous actually demonstrating such continued behavior by the left, not a single statement. I went back and read through the articles Tod linked to, and the only thing close is Dowd’s awful column, which pretty much everyone agrees is a steaming turd worse than usual. The rest nearly unanimously focus on Lewinski as a victim who has had her life ruined by the Clinton machine and go on to discuss the various nuances they’re personally interested in (Weigel: There’s nothing new in the VF interview; O’Conner: Lewinski is actually much more of a survivor than other recent victims; Henderson: What role did feminists play then and now; Marcus & TP: Is Rand Paul accurate when he calls Bill a “sexual predator” (i.e. violent)).
It’s true, none of these articles include a long polemic on the crimes and sleaze of Bill Clinton, and maybe that’s covering by omission. But these articles neither waive-off the scandal nor perpetrate any slut-shaming, and those are pretty strong accusations to leave unsourced.Report
The odd part is that she wasn’t even close to a Marilyn Monroe. That Clinton would risk so much for something so mundane and un-romantic is mind-boggling.Report
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/02/scaife200802
See this. It’s even more hilarious.Report
So many horny old men.Report
Hey, @mfarmer welcome back. It’s good to see you here.Report
Thanks zicReport
Welcome Back MFarmer, delightful to see you again. Remember Arnold in CA? Blew everything up over an elderly maid of all things. Men are strange strange creatures.Report
“Elderly” sounds wrong, since they had a kid together.Report
Hey! Good to see you, Mike! Welcome back.Report
This was a very insightful read, Tod.
Back in the late 1990s when I was a teenager, I bought a “Monica Lewinsky driver’s license” from a gas station that made all kinds of jokes at the woman’s expense. For example, the height on the card told you how tall Lewinsky was on her knees.
I realize that’s a small example of how this woman was treated, but I truly believe you did the right thing by writing this article.Report
+1Report
I’ve been out of town and have just read this OP. I haven’t read the comments yet, but I want to say this before I see all the BSDI arguments, etc: what a good piece of writing.Report
Well, now that I’ve read the comments, I haven’t seen one BSDI claim (unless I’m mistaken).Report