A Bloggy Puttanesca
(A staple in my house since my single years, a puttanesca is a cheap, low-class pasta dish that clears out little bits of other stuff from the fridge you are trying to get rid of.)
I have a lot of little things running through my head this morning. However, some do not really merit a whole post, and some are things I’m sure people are tired of talking about. So I’m going to take a page from fellow bloggers like Jason and Ryan and do a post with a few random thoughts thrown together. They mostly kinda sorta bleed together, but I’m not sure any of them are worth the time of figuring out how to make a more comprehensive unified post. Feel free to skip over any that don’t call to you.
Last (I Hope) Thoughts on Rush
Not surprisingly, I am getting a lot of pushback on my post about Rush’s apology. For the most part, the pushback comes in one of several arguments: Rush only did what he did because he was afraid of losing more advertisers, the Right isn’t going to change just because of this, Rush didn’t really mean it and wasn’t really sorry, and Rush is still a dick.
I am not so sure that everyone is right about the advertising-related objection. Rush has a long, long history of controversy and advertisers temporarily pulling out, and he better than anyone knows that they’ll be back and that as long as he’s front-page center the money will roll in. He’s never (to my knowledge) done anything close to what he did yesterday, and so I have to assume it is because of different circumstances.
As to the rest of the objections, I say: well, yeah. Of course he isn’t really sorry, and of course he’s still a dick, and of course cute woodland creatures are not going to appear in cartoon form singing and dancing amongst the Republican and Democrat operatives come Monday morning. Just about everyone in DC with an “R” attached to his name has spent the last two decades doing things the FOX/talk radio way – and the very newest ones were inspired to come to DC because of the FOX/talk radio way. So the GOP morphing into grownups isn’t going to happen over night, or really even in a single election cycle. I fully expect that Obama will win in November, and the R’s will pick up some house seats because of that two years later in the more conservative districts, and a large number of GOP leaders will assume once again that if they were just a bit more priggish they’d win it all next time. But first steps are always needed nonetheless, and I think this has to count as one.
Two days ago, anyone that was both paying attention and not a party hack was demanding an apology. And, I think to everyone’s surprise, we got one. And if you go back and read it, it’s not even a “I’m sorry if she was offended” apology. It was an apology that said, “What I said was wrong.” For a lot of us (and I include myself here), such things can be disappointing. It was a righteous indignation that was burning and it was fun to feel that, and when you find yourself in those kinds of battles a part of you wants them to go on forever. But they don’t.
We won. They lost. They admitted defeat. Be gracious. Move on to the important stuff.
Thoughts on Who Should Be Kicked Off the Island
Before I even start here, I want to say in no uncertain terms that what I am about to say is in no way being said as a statement of League policy, nor do I claim to represent Erik, Mark, Jason, or any of the writers or other folks here in this post. Nor am I attempting to tell anyone what they should think. This is just me thinking out loud.
With the exception of the weekly reviews, every post I have made over the past month has had some number of commenters ask/demand/argue that another commenter or writer should be kicked off the island; or if not that they should be banned, a quick note saying that allowing their presence diminishes the League. These comments come from all political directions. And often times, I confess, I have had similar thoughts about some folks that drop in.
But so long as people follow the admittedly expansive commenting policy, I have come to believe that kicking folks off for those reasons is a bad idea. Here are my personal reasons why, for your consideration:
The first and foremost is that once you start, you can’t stop and there’s no way it can lead to anything but an echo chamber. In a group of any size, there’s always someone off to the fringe of that group, and someone always wants that person gone. Even at Balloon Juice, which I think of as being a site that features quality writers, a particularly great community feel and a very common vision, they still have front pagers that quit and/or are tossed off the island (I really don’t know which) based on disagreements of things like word choice. In my mind there are a plethora of sites that cater to a more narrow set of political views, and not so many like us. So my preference will always to be to err toward letting fringe people have their say.
But there’s another more self-serving reason I am not inclined to kick people off for their views. As I’ve said here before, I’m blessed enough to live a fairly sheltered life in my meat form. I know liberals and conservatives alike here in PDX; I know atheists, Jews, Muslims and Christians of all stripes. They are all respectful, smart and full of inquiry. Because of this, I have a tendency to forget that the world is full of people who aren’t. It’s a good thing to know. And exposure to fringe-folk here at the League has shown me points of view that, frankly, I never thought actually existed. Seriously, until hanging out here I thought people who believed the South should have won the war were a silly liberal Hollywood fantasy. Who knew? Discovering these points of view, engaging them, and coming to see those that hold them as real people is a good thing.
This site works best when people of different beliefs and backgrounds engage each other with tough questions and comments and take the time to listen to responses from the other side, each side emphasizing respect. One of the downsides to having such a system like this is that there will always be people that take advantage of the setup and choose to be jerks. If there’s a way to have one without the other, I’m up for considering it; but given the choice between intellectual diversity+some jerks and intellectual uniformity+no jerks, I choose the former. (Also, I’m not always sure that people who are being jerks are always so aware that they are being jerks.)
That being said, while we’re on the subject I do kind of want to get this off my chest:
Guys, if you come across a woman here at the League and she says women should be treated with respect, and your response is to call her a “femi-nazi” or tell her to pull up her “big boy panties” then you need to be honest with yourselves. You’d totally puss out of saying that to a woman face-to-face, so be a fishing man and don’t do it when you can hide in on-line anonymity. Seriously, call me old fashioned but there’s little sadder than seeing guys do this.
Intellectual Empathy
I think I’m going to be writing about this concept of “intellectual empathy” more in the coming weeks. There probably is an actual word for it, so I’ll ask the hive to help me out with what it is. Until then I’ll just use my new made-up phrase.
What I mean is the ability to be able to put yourself in someone else’s place of vision and both intellectually and emotionally understand where they are coming from. In my experience, this is a very difficult skill that most people very mistakenly think they do well. “I totally understand where liberals are coming from,” I’ll here people say. “They want to force government to enslave people.” Or, “I could pass as a Republican. All I have to do is want rich people to own everything.”
The recent contraception controversy really hammered this lack of intellectual empathy home. I can’t count the number of people who said either “but it’s not a religious rights issue” or “but it’s not a women’s health issue.” It is quite obviously both. And in order to figure out a consensus on public policy we need to recognize this. I don’t care if you’re a man that doesn’t consider oral contraception a women’s healthcare issue. Women, healthcare professionals and health insurers all disagree with you. Deal with it. Similarly, people on the other side of the fence need to realize that there are actual sticky freedom of religion issues that come whenever government mandates conflict with doctrines of faith. This is an issue where someone (and maybe everyone) isn’t going to get exactly what they want. But if you want to be part of the national discussion, I would argue you have a responsibility to attempt to understand what it is that you are arguing against. Is it more difficult to not always focus on the points that are easier for you to argue? Of course it is – in fact it is definitionally so. But if we can’t do that, we’re just a whole lot of angry white noise.
Perhaps not exactly what you are talking about, but in education circles, we describe the final thing as perspective taking, an important developmental step for the ages I teach. I don’t know if that works any better or really captures what you mean.Report
This was a wise post.
I nominate you to be our official Yoda.Report
Can one simultaneously be both Our Tod and Our Toda?Report
Ok, but you have to think of one more so I can have my own trinity.Report
Holy Toast?Report
That line was some serious game.Report
Mmm. Flattered I am.Report
I would say that your discussion of the “contraception controversy” is a pretty good summary of the discussion, however if you’ve followed the media discussion of the issue, both sides are talking past each other. I watched most of the Sunday talking head shows today and the question is being framed still as, “Why do you Republicans want to prohibit women from getting birth control?” Pretty obviously, there isn’t a serious consideration of the religious liberty issue in all of this. That’s just the media being the media, but it’s indicative to me as to why each year our politics seems to become more intractable; we don’t understand the other side’s argument and substitute the “argument in our head” for the argument our opponent is actually trying to make. Or, and just as bad, regardless of our opponent’s argument we question his motives, no matter what he says.
I’m not trying to put this all on the left and the mainstream media, since the right does it too. Rush’s comments about having the taxpayer fund law students exorbitant birth control expenses are a good example of that. But I’m glad you’ve at least recognized that there is an issue in framing our opponents arguments and intentions.Report
Fair enough, but read Fluke’s actual testimony. She makes the point that, because contraception isn’t covered per se, the same drugs can be difficult or impossible to get coverage for when they’re medically required for other conditions. That point may not be dispositive, but it’s important and needs to be part of the discussion. It wasn’t brought up by the Issa committee, which decided that patients and doctors are irrelevant to a medical discussion.Report
As I proved beyond the shadow of a doubt and with geometric logic.it’s at best a C+ apology, but, sure, that’s a passing grade.Report
Personally, I thought it was a D apology myself. But I’m willing to go along with the more generous grade as Limbaugh did actually attempt (however lamely) to offer something resembling an apology.Report
“but it’s not a religious rights issue.”
I think it is worth pointing out that this statement is close to accurate in certain respects. By that I don’t mean that this is not a religious issue, or that there is not room for a lively debate about the proper application of government power when it affects the religious among us.
Rather, there is no legally cognizable free exercise right that was implicated by Obama’s original proposal. We don’t have, and I think shouldn’t have, a right to not conform with generally applicable legislation when we deal with the public. Also, notice that I said close to accurate, because the above issues are surely worthy of debate.
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“We don’t have, and I think shouldn’t have, a right to not conform with generally applicable legislation when we deal with the public.”
Glad to know you support regulations banning hijab. Because, after all, the entire face and head must be uncovered to ensure positive identification on security cameras.Report
Glad to know you support regulations banning hijab. Because, after all, the entire face and head must be uncovered to ensure positive identification on security cameras.
Depends on the circumstance. One could make a case for banning hajib in a bank. I don’t think one could make a case for banning them in a public area.Report
Just want to say that I think you were right to put up a post noting and welcoming the apology. I think people just thought you praised it a little too highly for its unrestrained sincerity and contriteness. But however short it fell in making amends for what was said, you were right that it’s better than nothing and more than we might realistically have expected.Report
OK, all the new buttons in the comment box are freaking me out. Performance anxiety. I’ll just pretend they aren’t there.
I liked the shorter format with several thoughts in one shorter post. Some of you Gentlemen do seem to go on and on at times.
Nice posts, Tod, both today and yesterday. Though I don’t quite agree with the “both sides do it too” thing. I find the freedom of religion argument in this situation more than a little disingenuous. Georgetown offers insurance that covers contraception to its faculty and staff; why didn’t they argue with that when it was instated in 2000, though I can’t find a link that confirms the date? Twenty-eight states require that conception be covered, and Catholic institutions have complied without complaint; why is the religious objection just coming up now? Can it possibly have more of a political objective, as in causing Obamacare to fail?
Last but not least, here is a real apology (Ed Schultz to Laura Ingraham) to compare and contrast with Rush’s:
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Yeah, we are a wordy bunch – and I’m probably the worst. But thanks.
And you make a pretty great point about the Schultz/Ingram thing. I’ll point out this comment in the other thread by Pat, just in case you hadn’t seen it, because it was a fairly magnificent take down of that same argument you noted.Report
I have mixed feelings about the wordiness thing. I’ll try to keep it short! On one hand, it’s annoying now that we have a full roster of writers when I want to read every post and a bunch of them are long. On the other hand, I still like that we buck the trend wherein blog posts are getting shorter and shorter and, as a result, blunter and triter. Actually, that was one of the primary objectives here at first- letting people really chew over a subject in depth. But, again, it gets a bit harder to keep up with when you have four times as many people doing it.Report
I didn’t mean that you should never write long posts; it’s one of the things I like about the League. It is nice to have some variety, though.Report
Oh, I know- I was just sort of thinking aloud. I think it’s a good idea for us to do some posts like this one that collect crisper and more concise points. Jason’s done the same thing and I’ve really enjoyed it. I don’t know if I could pull it off, but I’ve tried a few times. They seem to be a bit more adept.Report
One of the things I’ve been considering is to keep doing one or two essay length posts a week, but do a lot more short one/two paragraph stuff.
Of course, that just make the “top much to read” problem worse.Report
Tod you had shut off the comments in the other thread before I could respond to Pat. He has a massive advantage on me because he’s a front-pager and can link dozens of sites without languishing in moderated purgatory. My larger point was lost in the rebuttal, wherein I asked women who expressed outrage at Rush’s comments whether they had PERSONALLY expressed similar umbrage when OTHER women (women with whom they clearly are not aligned politically) were attacked. I didn’t say no one on the left defended these women (although it is still a fact that damn few did) but I DID say, please show me ladies where YOU defended your enemies, because you are sisters after all. As Mark pointed out (IIRC) Katherine has been posting /here/ longer than Bob, she has had ample opportunity /here/ to have condemned any of those unwarranted attacks against her sisters of the chromosomal variety.
I simply haven’t had the time to devote to putting my thoughts online in a coherent manner here. My comments lately have been too abrupt at times I’m certain, because I’d rather have another minute or so to word craft them and make sure my thoughts are leading rather than emotions. If any are offended at my brusqueness, my apologies. Sometime soon I hope to have put away the real world issues facing me and have the time to devote to expressing my thoughts as a gentleman.Report
Ward, I knew exactly what you meant in that question, and I would have liked to reply to it – except the comments were closed. I also had a question from Bob Cheeks that needed responding to, as well as a challenge from Scott. And of course, there was other good discussion there as well. maybe the moment’s passed, but I’d like to see comments open up on the thread again so we can finish some very good discussions.
Also, I agree with you about Patrick. He’s got an unfair advantage on me as well. In my case, it’s cuz he’s a lot smarter.Report
Ward – Sorry to hear there are real world issues, man. Hope you sail through them ok.
FWIW, I’m not really pointing any fingers at anyone about the other thread. But when I got up this morning and was reading me emails, I see the conversations in reverse, and after going through 10 emailed comments that had more to do with being pissed off than discussions, it just felt best to shut it down. If you want to pick up the thread with Pat here I’m cool with that.
I wasn’t going for a silencing everyone so much as a “let’s go sleep it off and regroup later” kind of vibe.Report
Tod, that’s entirely reasonable. Part of my beef with the closure is that when people let loose, you really get to see the place they’re arguing from. And that can be valuable.Report
My Google-fu has failed me, but I’ve seen MANY instances where liberals will take umbrage at “fellow-travelers” using sexist language. We all hate Ann Coulter (and you should hate her more) butt any time a commenter referred to her gender, they were rebuked — on Crooks and Liars, Balloon Juice, Slacktivist — all the blogs I follow.
So, sorry, the Left does not excuse its miscreants. Not the way that the Right does.Report
I question the sanity of any man who puts black olives in anything.Report
I question the sanity of one who wouldn’t put it in most things.Report
I keep thinking it and not saying it, but I might as well. I find it exceedingly weird that y’all keep discussing comment policy enforcement and bans and such so publicly. Maybe I’m old school (or maybe corporate-ism has really taken over my poor little brain), but I always expect that those conversations happen behind closed doors.
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Though I want to again say that what I wrote above should not be construed as League policy, I will say this:
Transparency is always good – even in the corporate world.Report
Tod-
Can you shoot me an email at the address associated with my handle? I know you shared your email address elsewhere but don’t know where to find it.
Thanks.Report
Done!Report
With an eye toward being transparent, I asked Tod to email me so that I could apologize for and explain my actions on the other thread. I don’t want to threadjack here, so I will leave it at that. If so desired, I am happy to offer these thoughts and feelings to anyone interestedi n the appropriate place and time (which might be offsite).Report
I appreciate the transparency, it’s just quite atypical!Report
The problem with conversations that take place behind closed doors is that you can never be sure whether they actually took place at all.
Like the 9/11 troofers, I’d rather there be an evil conspiracy in charge than that nobody at all be in chargeReport
” but I always expect that those conversations happen behind closed doors.”
The closed-door discussions are reserved for the black bag jobs and wet work.Report
“What I mean is the ability to be able to put yourself in someone else’s place of vision and both intellectually and emotionally understand where they are coming from.”
Except when it’s, like, fun to feel the righteous and the burning, flames on the side of my face, etcetera.
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Exactly.Report
Tod, I’m sorry but I get the sense that we’ve grown a bit wobbly between the first blog and this one, re: Rush’s comments about Ms. Flake? If so, does it pertain to the overwhelming criticism the Rushbo got and your apparent desire to run with the big dogs, even if at the back of the pack?
It’s a lot more fun to defend your principles against all odds, rather like the olde Confederates at Sayler’s Creek, than be a bootlick for the chatter nabobs.Report
I’d love to be smart enough to understand what you’re writing here, but I’m not.Report
Bob, after having shut down the comments to the last post, let me just ask you to ask yourself something in the privacy of you’re own head:
When you were engaging as you did, were you trying to make a clear argument, or persuade anyone of a point of view, or attempting to communicate in any bilateral way whatsoever? Or were you looking to push buttons and piss people off for the fun of it? Because I have to tell you, for a man of God you looked quite Mephistopheles-esque.
Again, no need to answer here, that’s just a question for you and your head. But if you’re looking to egg people on into a food fight just to see if you can here, move along to someone else’s thread.
I’m just trying to hep.Report
Tod, FWIW, wherever it is that you run in the pack, I’ll be happy if one day I am half the writer you are.Report
I think that would actually require a pretty huge reduction in your current quality to get there. But thank you, my friend!Report
I think that Mr Cheeks responses following answer your question.
Not that long back I accused the blog of being libertarian, and fairly right-wing at that. There are those here who fit that bill (Mr Farmer, Mr Cheeks, wordsmith, et al), but in general, I am very much corrected.Report
Tod, you don’t really want me to leave? Say it ain’t so!
I’ve oft confessed to having my jape here with libruls, bitch slapping them around with their own defomed ideological pathologlies, or having the audacity to actually disagree with their perverse thought. That’s all, nothing mean, hell, not even personal. I kinda like the ones that go after me more than those who remain silent.
I’ve also confessed to being a flawed Christian offering hep to those who can’t seem to shake the demons they embrace.
My critique was not about your writing style. I think your writing style is sufficient and you might even sell a piece or two should you try. I’d ask Jason about that. It’s one thing to blog, its another to sell your stuff. My critique was about the content of your writing which, in this instance, seemed hesitant to defend the theme that the beloved Rushbo had kissed the librul ass sufficient to move on, which was implied in your first offering. My disappointment had much more to do with your mettle and nothing to do with construct. My interpretation of these two blogs is that of a writer who appears equivocal, unsure of himself, a man who adheres to the E.D. school of political philosophy. My advice, which I’m aware is unrequested, is to grow a pair, and act like you stand for something. Hell, even an effete librul is capable of presenting a strong facade.Report
I want to respond, but am unsure where to begin without clarification, so (even though I know I will regret it) I’ll ask… what did you see the point of my first post as being, and what did you see the point of my second post?
And to be clear, I don’t actually have a problem with you making your own case here. I do have a problem with you trying to piss people off just for the fun of it, which is what it looked like you were doing earlier. As Burt says, when we write these posts it’s like asking people into our living rooms; it is therefore important that people we invite to come in be treated as they would a guest in my home. If all you’re trying to do is ruin someone’s evening, then like I said earlier – plenty of other people writing posts out there. Go do it to their guests.
Seriously, I thought you Southerners were known for your good manners and hospitality.Report
I want to respond
I do not entirely understand that impulse.Report
Tod, I see that Ward, Stillwater, and perhaps others had comments they wanted to make on the other thread and YOU shut it down, in a moment of pique, and blamed me. Bullpucky, your the one wimping out here. If you wanna be one of the boys on the masthead then act like it and engage in the argument, debate, etc and stop shutting down threads that hurt your feelings. Stop whining.Report
Do you have a particular thing you are looking for me to do, Bob? If not, I’ll let you get the last word in here.Report
It seems to me the best thing for you to do is allow Ward and Stillwater and Scott to make their comments. My goodness closing down the thread was a silly thing to do and casts a doubt on your personal integrity. Don’t you see that?
I don’t need the last word.Report
They’ve all been told they can continue. If there’s any confusion, then I’ll say it clearly:
Scott, Still, Ward, if you war win the middle of a conversation with someone you want to continue, go ahead.Report
Tod:
Since you feel the need to get such weighty matters off your chest, I feel that I need to respond since for all intents and purposes you called me out. I would and have told folks to their face (and have had the same done to me) to get their big boy/girl panties on or to get their panties un-knotted. It is sad to see how thin skinned folks have gotten these days, God forbid anyone speak harshly to another lest their feels be hurt and their poor fragile self esteem be lowered. Some of the exchanges I’ve heard b/t judges and lawyers, lawyers and lawyers and partners and associates were harsh but few broke down into blubbering heaps. Not to mention that some folks here do say things that could be incendiary but the mark of an adult is to ignore them instead of responding. What I find really sad and emblematic of your mistaken priorities is that you spend so much time focusing on what Bob and I said but you ignore blatant personal attacks by Katherine. To top things off you close a thread to stop the discussion and then start other threads on the same subject to continue the discussion so you can shape the discussion to your own ends. I guess the thread wasn’t going the way you wanted. So much for open discussion here when a thread is shut down for seemingly little or no reason.Report
Scott, this was posted yesterday morning. I closed the other thread today, and it had nothing to do you or any of your comments.Report
Yes, I appreciated that, Tod, and it rather harkens to my recent reply to you. The letters to the editor at my local LATimes is often ugly and one-sided as well; I wrote columnist Jim Rainey in reply to one of his high-horse denunciations of “hate-radio” one day, and asked him to look at the letters they printed in that day’s paper. I don’t recall being assuaged by his reply.Report