Affirmative Action and Philosophy vs. Reality
In a post I did on religion a while back, I talked about the various reasons I tend to distrust using Philosophy as a tool to solve disagreements about public policy. While I appreciate the thinking skills it teaches when practiced in an academic setting, I described my problems using it to tackle day-to-day issues thus:
“I’ve always been somewhat suspicious of the entire business of capital “P” Philosophy, and at different times in my life have found it pretentious, distracting, purposefully exclusionary, and a linguistic tool to reshape reality when your belief system is proven to be wrong. Mostly though, my problem with Philosophy is its reliance on combat rather than collaboration.”
I know that this view of Philosophy is not overly popular at this site. (Of all the contributors, I think I may be the only one that does not list “philosophy” of some sort as a hobby in their bio.)
My problem with using Philosophy to tackle policy issues was driven home this morning in a post by Tim on California’s Prop 209. Prop 209, passed through the initiative process, allows the State school system to use affirmative action as a tool in their admissions process for both undergraduate and graduate programs.
I will say from the outset that this is a issue that I don’t think has a black and white answer (no pun intended). Where are we, really, when it comes to racism and sexism in our country? It’s hard to get a bead on it. On the one hand, I was pretty sure in early 2008 that we had not come far enough to overwhelmingly elect an African American to the highest office in the land. On the other, I was pretty sure in late 2008 that we had come far enough that the assumption that he must have been born in Kenya and sent to destroy our way of life by those sneaky Africans would be universally laughed at. So what do I know?
For all of our hand-wringing about college admissions, I must confess I am not convinced it matters much – at least in the long run. If you graduate from Stanford as opposed to UC Santa Barbara, might you get a slightly better paying job out of college? Maybe, sure. In 10 years, will your level of success be directly attributed to the name of your alma mater, as opposed to your actual career achievements? Not really.
That being said, I think the passage of Prop 209 is a good reason to have a very real conversation about where we are today on those racism and sexism scales, and to what degree affirmative action is needed, helpful, or even morally justified. What I’m pretty sure we don’t need to discuss is this:
“Even in circles in which it is fashionable to be provocative, we never hear the question “How has the abolition of slavery worked?” We do not hear that question, I suspect, because people sense that the rightness or wrongness of ending slavery is wholly unaffected in principle by the extended consequences of that measure—whether the former slaves happened to prosper or grow poorer in their freedom. And yet it is quite common for people to ask whether policies of “reverse discrimination” or “busing for racial balance” have worked. . . .”
For me, this is pretty much where the “philosophical-arguments-use-linguistic-gymnastics-to-reshape-reality-to-your-side’s-favor” rubber meets the road. Unless I am reading Arkes (and therefore Tim’s) point incorrectly, the wisdom I am supposed to take away is that the act of us as a country saying that you couldn’t exclude black people from living in nice neighborhoods, fund all black schools at lower levels, or have collusion by employers that blacks couldn’t be hired except for the most menial tasks (at wages less than their white counterparts) was the moral equivalent of locking white people up in chains, shipping them off to another country, and keeping them in bondage. That either Arkes or Tim might actually believe this seems laughably dubious, but the use of philosophical debate techniques allows them to go there anyway – and go there in a way that seems super smart and at first blush convincing.
Tim even goes one step further, using philosophic argument to “prove” that Prop 209 is a case of “lawmakers [supplanting] the people’s anti-racial discrimination principle expressed in their constitution through an inferior act of lawmaking,” tap-dancing around the part that as an initiative it was not the legislature acting in darkened, smoke-filled rooms that passed the bill, but “the people” themselves.
The inherent problem with Tim’s absolutist argument is that it either ignores over 200 years of history, or it claims that this history did not exist. The problem with doing ignoring that history is that this is a public policy issue, and thus you need everyone at the table to seriously tackle it. Equating affirmative action with slavery will not bring anyone to the table that wasn’t already sitting next to you. I don’t live in Cali so I don’t know what the No-On-Prop 209 campaign was like, but if it tried to rally support with arguments like Arkes’s it’s not surprising that they lost.
I wish that instead of using Philosophy to swing for the fences – vanquishing his enemies with an all-or-nothing supposition – Tim had instead acknowledged the very real need for Affirmative Action in our country’s past – even if he doesn’t see that need now. Which isn’t even to say that Tim’s stance that Prop 209 is bad policy is wrong. He may well be right. But as I grow older, I become more convinced that in order to solve thorny issues like this we don’t need divisive philosophical statements, we need conversations. And conversations start with questions.
The questions I think we should be asking each other, rather than devising philosophical beachheads? Here’s a start:
Where have we come with AA? How far do we still need to go? Who has AA helped, and who has it hurt, and are the degrees of those two equal or not?
For school admissions, what is the purpose of our higher education system? Is it simply a way to get an ultimate academic rank of 21-23 year-olds, or do we want it to be something else – something more? If we choose to go on SAT scores alone, what do we miss when students are invariably sequestered for four years with people from backgrounds just like theirs? If we have diversity as a key component, do we risk placing too small an emphasis on merit? Must we choose one over the other?
These are the questions I think we need to ask our neighbors and ourselves. There aren’t many things I feel confident that I absolutely know on the subject of affirmative action, but I feel confident about this: Most of us aren’t really entirely on one side or the other; and planting a flag aggressively and absolutely on either side of the debate just forces others to do the same – and ultimately just puts off us being able to get anywhere meaningful.
Philosophy can get you somewhere on an issue like this:
http://www.uned.es/dcpa/doctorado0506/cursos/49Young_3ss.pdf
(I know I posted it in the comments to the first post, but seriously, it’s a must read.)Report
I got about three sentences in and I said, “Hey, this is positively Aristotelian!”
Am I going to be thinking the same thing on page 24?Report
I doubt it. It starts out Aristotelian, in a way I suppose, because our concept of citizenship is built largely on Aristotle. But she actually argues against a notion of universal, equal citizenship, so I suppose in that way it becomes distinctly non-Aristotelian.Report
Aristotle had at least four classes of people.
Slaves
Women
Citizens: People who engage in Politics with virtue (guys like him)
Everybody else (resident aliens, children, seniors, most ordinary workers, priests, whathaveyou)
You don’t offer offices to priests, for example. I’ll read it 🙂Report
Philosophy cannot fail, it can only be failed.Report
At the core of affirmative action is the decision that a human being’s value is not necessarily rooted in his/her contribution, skills, value to society, merit, or any other attribute that can be changed, but on their race. While AA may have been necessary at times, the champions of affirmative action programs have rarely owned up to the fact that AA isn’t fundamentally a fair deal, but instead a bit of unfairness in an attempt to undo a larger injustice.
I really have no clue where we are in race relations. It seems like if someone wants to find proof of racism they will find it. And if someone wants racial harmony, they have the tools at their disposal to create it. And for those whose living depends on painting the world in terms of “it’s always us vs them”, they can do that as well, since they can’t imagine a world without that sort of thing.Report
Dude! Welcome!Report
“the champions of affirmative action programs have rarely owned up to the fact that AA isn’t fundamentally a fair deal, but instead a bit of unfairness in an attempt to undo a larger injustice. ”
That does not seem a reality based view. AA has always been presented as a way of correcting past or current injustice. Is it painted as unfair in itself, you may have a point there at most.
What is to rarely part of philosophical AA discussions is the data on how various groups are doing, theories on why, if its a problem and a problem that can be ameliorated by AA.Report
Mr. Ewiak is correct: Legacy admissions perpetuate past injustice. No way around that fact; legacies will be overwhelmingly white.
It’s actually the Asians who take it in the shorts with AA, but few care.Report
I must admit, my experience in this country, as a first-generation immigrant for the past 17 years hasn’t been the same as yours. I’ve met different people, lived in quite diverse environments. To me the “champions of AA” are those that have attempted to explain the merits of it to me and the loudest public proponents of it (Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton). I’m yet to hear any of them admit that AA is fundamentally unfair, but necessary as a way to correct past unfairness.
But I haven’t heard everything they have to say, and if you think I’ve missed something important in their speeches/articles, let me know; I’m willing to change my mind.Report
You’ve pretty much stated my own view.
To this I would add that AA is one more of a long list of things distinctly Leftist in this: persons are rewarded according to their (perceived) incapacities rather than according to their capabilities.
These proponents of AA are a people who wish to be cherished and held dear while announcing their own ugliness.
Were they to truly believe in their own capability, they would prefer to argue vehemently against it.Report
You missreprestent a very fundamental point: this is not a reward. This is an attempt towards equality of opportunity.Report
At the core of affirmative action is the decision that a human being’s value is not necessarily rooted in his/her contribution, skills, value to society, merit, or any other attribute that can be changed, but on their race.
This view, like Tim’s, is just way too simplistic. It’s not necessarily the case that affirmative action, meant to address past or present disadvantages, says anything about the value of an individual being in any way related to his or her race. It could mean simply that because of a person’s race, that person has been handed a plethora of disadvantages, and affirmative action programs are merely meant to recress those. If affirmative action programs are specifically designed to promote diversity, then they do not say that a person’s value is rooted only in his or her race, but that racial diversity itself is a value. You can debate this, of course, but it certainly doesn’t imply that there can’t be value (perhaps the bulk of the value) in contribution, skills, value to society, “merit,” or other such abstract ideas.Report
I’m not buying it.
AA states to every black that they are nothing more than a “darkie,” nor will they ever be.
Similarly with women, that they are merely a set of genitals.
For that reason, I endorse Michele Bachmann as the next President of the United States.
Hoping that will shut up all the Hillary voters from the last election cycle.
They should be pleased.
To think that someone with this set of genitals might hold an office!
I would like that.Report
“To think that someone with this set of genitals might hold an office!”
Actually, Bill already held the office.
Oh, wait… you mean her own. Sorry.Report
No, it doesn’t. That you see it that way says more about you than it does about affirmative action or its supporters.Report
Not really.
You can read that into it if you want to, but that says a lot more about you than it does about me.
Sort of like Melissa Harris-Perry seeing racism in progressive whites not being so starry-eyed about Obama these days.Report
Personally, I think you have the two parts of your first paragraph entirely backwards. AA is an attempt to show that the value of a person extends beyond the immediate judgement that has been made in this country for over 200 years based entirely on the person’s skin color. Because of the use of skin color as a criteria for so long, it has seriously skewed the other criteria we assume to be impartial.
Actually, I think a lot of people who push AA realize that some other people will be harmed where they otherwise wouldn’t have. But the reason they will be harmed would theoretically be the exact reason they would not be admitted into a college if there were no discriminiation based on race (or gender or sexual orientation). With 20-some-odd-million people in CA, it’s hard to argue that the percentage of blacks in college is a statistical anamoly.Report
“if someone wants racial harmony, they have the tools at their disposal to create it.”
I want racial harmony, please tell me what tools I have at my disposal to create it.Report
If you are actually interested in something like that (and not just being a smartass), I can probably help you find a few non-profits around you that are dealing with the generational poverty and revenge-based justice that’s at the core of a lot of the racism/classism/sexism in our countryReport
You could give inter-racial marriage a chance.
Go ask someone out from another race.
It’s easy.Report
Would “sophistry” or perhaps “ideology” be a better term to identify the combative, absolutist, reality-rewriting intellectual game you’re (rightly) concerned about? I’m puzzled why you call this kind of thing “Philosophy.”Report
I like this Cupp guy.Report
I like his pointy ears.
I’m thinking of having that done as an elective surgery.Report
I can’t get my hair to do that.Report
Kyle – I use this word because when I call people on it their defense is that they are using “philosophy.” I think of it as their word, not mine.
But beyond that, I think that there is a kind of arguing – debating is perhaps a better word – that we are taught in philosophy, law, and poli-sci classes that is designed to both sharpen reasoning skills (academically) and vanquish your foe (in practice), regardless of your position’s merit. I get why this is useful as a mental exercise, or desirable for an attorney in a court of law advocating someone they are paid to advocate for.
I think it is a bad tool in public policy discussions, as – despite what people tell themselves about the techniques used in philosophical arguments – is really designed to beat an opponent, and not to look look at their or their adversary’s position either critically or fairly.
I think this is not just ideology, but a defect in the very style of the school that uses it. (After all, a lot of people like attorneys use this technique on either side of a debate, back and forth, without missing a beat.)Report
I think it is a bad tool in public policy discussions, as – despite what people tell themselves about the techniques used in philosophical arguments – is really designed to beat an opponent, and not to look look at their or their adversary’s position either critically or fairly.
That’s what sophistry is. I too think “philosophy” is probably the wrong word for what you mean.Report
“Wouldn’t it be better if philosophical arguments left the person no possible answer at all, reducing him to impotent silence? Even then, he might sit there silently, smiling, Buddhalike. Perhaps philosophers need arguments so powerful they set up reverberations in the brain: if the person refuses to accept the conclusion, he dies. How’s that for a powerful argument?” — Robert Nozick, Philosophical Explanations
Not incidentally a view he endorsed; rather one he disdained.Report
I’ve always loved that quote.Report
I agree. Philosophy when you really break it down is trying to solve problems by asking questions about our concepts and assumptions so that we can figure out what we want and what we really mean when we’re making certain arguments. It’s a path to clarification, not obfuscation, so that we’ll better understand the choices that we can make. The other kind of argument he’s talking about isn’t philosophy, or at best it’s using philosophy in bad faith.Report
Philosophy clarifies the questions, so we can ignore them and call people racist anyway.Report
Someone called Tim a racist (I’m not sure why), but I hinted that someone (look, he’s right up there) was a racist for suggesting that he could spot the affirmative action student. If that’s not racist, it’s, well, it’s racist. So far, though, the discussion has been fairly devoid of accusations of racism, given the topic.Report
“Someone called Tim a racist (I’m not sure why)”
Because calling people racist is so easy.Report
I wonder how much better public policy would be if most of the wonks were mechanics instead of lawyers by training. Lawyers have clients who have interests that need to be defended or advanced. Mechanics have customers that have problems that the mechanic works on to fix.
It may not be the discipline, it may be the vocational training that is the problem.Report
Some of the best software dudes I know started out as electrical engineers, not computer scientists.
You might have something here.Report
tch. Met a guy once who wouldn’t hire CS grads for nothing. Claimed they couldn’t handle math for anything (he was working for NOAA at the time)Report
That’s a really, really interesting take, Jib. Thank you for that.Report
Otoh, among the worst US Presidents in history are the two with engineering backgrounds.Report
hey! I like the hoover dam! He was a fine president in a really hard time, which he made worse by being bloody stubborn.Report
Thomas Jefferson being the other one?Report
Jimmy Carter (though you could make a case for both Jefferson and Washington) (and any West Point grad)Report
And Carter hired Volokher, who saved America.
Can we please stop picking on the Engineers?Report
“He was a fine president in a really hard time, which he made worse by being bloody stubborn.”
is also an accurate description of Carter’s faults.
You can also throw in that Carter (and Ted Kennedy!) receive too little credit for deregulation.
And I’m also an engineer by training. I jut see that people with little political experience before coming President tend to get rolled over and/or make bad decisions as President (Hoover, Carter, J.Q. Adams, Wilson, etc)
The profession of Lawyer tends to give people more ‘political’ experence than the profession of Engineer.Report
Ten points!
The smart folks who can do things that presidents can’t, woudln’t ever want to be president. too much time being a figureheadReport
Jefferson was certainly an engineer. Carter did a lot better than his reputation suggests; not only was Paul Volcker good for the economy, but Carter began the deregulation that continued under Reagan.
Curiously, Republicans praise Reagan and not Carter; Democrats blame Reagan and not Carter. The reality is a lot more complicated.Report
Believe me, you can find Democrat’s who don’t like how Carter couldn’t work with congressional Democrats to pass good things. Now, the difference is that most of the deregulation did was in industries that actually needed deregulated, not industries that can cause say, the world economy to collapse if they aren’t watched carefully. 🙂Report
reagan deregulated pensions, turning the stock market into a glorified ponzi scam.
*grumpy today*Report
“For school admissions, what is the purpose of our higher education system?”</Ii
This is the central question. The liberatiran case against AA is weaked by failing to substantially answer this question. Especially, when offering philsophical accounts of people being meaningfully free from necessity/compulsion (from Tim's post):
Voluntarism [a system, according to Fischer, in which relationships, organizational affiliations, and living circumstances are largely a product of individual choices rather than of necessity or external compulsion]
I’m not sure how you get there after taking into account the prior 200 years.Report
Tod,
Let me cite the rest of the Arkes passage, since reading the first half alone led you to a conclusion different than the one made by the whole:
I underscored the point when I wrote in my post: “The problem is not only that lawmakers enact bad policy. It is that they make the scope and nature of their policies inscrutable. Modern policymaking is all making and no policy.”
You pose questions that you contend need to be asked before we can settle on effective university admissions policies. That is a different issue than the one I raised in my post. I contend, simply, that racial discrimination is a moral wrong in itself. I understand your basic point that my taking a moral position on this issue appears to you as “combat rather than collaboration.” On fundamental issues, however, there is simply no room for collaboration. I suspect you’d agree if we were talking about an issue that you regard as fundamental. Unfortunately, however, most folks are very secretive about their first principles, if they acknowledge having them at all.Report
> Unfortunately, however, most folks are
> very secretive about their first principles,
> if they acknowledge having them at all.
I only have two.
“It is very likely that our given understanding of any issue is limited.”
“Most people are very bad at math.”
All the others have enough weakness to ’em I don’t really call them first principles. Maybe second principles.Report
There are 10 kind of people in the world.
Those who can do binary and those who can’t.Report
Tim, the problem with this argument is that you are using debate strategies to paint your opposition as people who wish to have racial discrimination rather than eliminate racial discrimination – when I think you know this is not the case. Do you really believe that AA came about because everyone was equally treated, but women and black people wanted more than everyone else? I know you don’t. (If you DO believe this was the motivation, you need to get out and talk to non-white people more often.)
Not acknowledging that – pretending that you are unaware of the circumstances that led to AA being used in the first place – gets you “strong debate skill” points, but it’s not honest.Report
Tod,
What I am trying to do is learn what values you would elevate higher than the principle of racial nondiscrimination. This is not a trap. I just don’t believe meaningful conversations can happen while keeping our most sacred values a big secret.Report
And Tim, I’m trying to get you to either see or admit that AA is designed to be used as an instrument to eliminate racial discrimination. You can argue that it does so – or not, or you can argue that there is a better solution – or not.
But arguing that people who advocate AA are against racial equality – not by unintended consequences, but by the very act of choosing and wanting to live in a racially discriminatory society – is absurd. Worse, I think you know that it’s absurd.
Seriously, do you really not listen to those that disagree that much?Report
But arguing that people who advocate AA are against racial equality – not by unintended consequences, but by the very act of choosing and wanting to live in a racially discriminatory society – is absurd. Worse, I think you know that it’s absurd.
Seriously, do you really not listen to those that disagree that much?
Dude, you haven’t read Tim before, have you?Report
Tod,
I think I see some of the sources of our disagreement here. I have never argued that “people who advocate AA are against racial equality.” While I have not delved into the weeds on this point, there are drastically different popular conceptions of “equality.” To put the matter very simplistically, my view is that people are born with equal moral rights of man, have a right to equal protection of the laws, and to be largely left free to pursue very unequal achievements and riches commensurate with their voluntary (and thus unequal) efforts and natural or God-given (and thus also unequal) abilities.
Another view is that people are born with natural inequalities, social forces press on that inequality, and thus the state should “make” us equal. I do not deny the premises here. But I generally reject the view that the state should resort to such vulgar, imprecise, and quite simply arbitrary means of counteracting such social forces by crediting (or discrediting) individuals for their membership in a racial group.
In short, no, my argument is not that proponents of SB 185 have some invidious discriminatory motive. Instead, it is that racial discrimination is arbitrary, and thus crediting or discrediting people on such a basis is immoral. The end of establishing an artificially “equal” society is not worth and does not negate that fundamental moral wrong.Report
Out of curiosity, what is your opinion of Augusta? Should we force them to admit women, or let them be? Prior to 1990, should we have forced them to admit blacks?Report
There are actual differences in men and women’s golf, to my understanding, so there might be a justification for a men-only golf club. Not so with white men and black men’s golf. If I lived in that state, I would have favored a racial nondiscrimination law applying to private businesses, including golf clubs.Report
Thanks. I can’t deny that it’s a consistent answer.Report
Just to stir up some trouble…
Black Caucus: Whites Not Allowed
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0107/2389.html
By JOSEPHINE HEARN | 1/22/07 1:01 PM EDT
As a white liberal running in a majority African American district, Tennessee Democrat Stephen I. Cohen made a novel pledge on the campaign trail last year: If elected, he would seek to become the first white member of the Congressional Black Caucus.
Now that he’s a freshman in Congress, Cohen has changed his plans. He said he has dropped his bid after several current and former caucus members made it clear to him that whites need not apply.
“I think they’re real happy I’m not going to join,” said Cohen, who succeeded Rep. Harold Ford, D-Tenn., in the Memphis district. “It’s their caucus and they do things their way. You don’t force your way in. You need to be invited.”Report
I thought that story was sad, when I heard about it the first time.Report
TVD, you live in DC? I’m wondering if anyone there can give us another review of this play?Report
oy, that was bad. Did you catch skeptical brotha’s blogpost on Cohen’s competition, the second go-round? Had to be some of the best ranting i’ve seen in teh blogosphere.Report
If the discrimination is non-arbitrary, why would redressing it based on the categories discriminated against necessarily be arbitrary?Report
Tod, do you REALLY believe AA eliminates racial discrimination?
Echoing Pat’s comment above, do you know the mathematical concept of a discriminant? The discriminant gives information about the nature of the variable in question’s roots. Just like we do with people, we endeavor to discriminate their roots. The Romans used discriminatus to separate their slaves and other conquered peoples.
Regardless of the intent of the effort, as soon as we take people of this or that race and gather them together (for quotas for instance) or separate them (for the same reason) we’ve already discriminated. Therefore the law CANNOT work as intended because discrimination is inherent in the law!Report
wardsmith – I don’t believe that it eliminates discrimination, no. But I think those that advocate for it due it with the intent of eliminating, or at least curbing racial discrimination. Do you not?
Are they right? I’m not sure that they are. But I’m also keenly aware that the same arguments against AA 50 years ago have proven to be mostly wrong; I think there is far more equality between different races and sexes now, and race relations are substantially better now than back then. It seems dishonest of me not to give some or a large amount of credit to AA for this evolution. And though I know that in every decision like this you have a loser, I think a valid argument can be made that we are better for having done what we have done.
That being said, is it still required, or have we reached the inevitable tipping point where AA is doing more harm to society than good? I suspect this might be the case, and am open to the possibility that that it is not. But whether it is or not, ignoring the reasons we as a society felt compelled to institute AA in the first place seems unproductive.Report
http://washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/2011/09/time-abolish-dhs
(And hat tip to the American Spectator for this.)
The public only has so much attention for engagement with political-cultural affairs. If we give up on certain things, like having the educational establishment micromanage the racial bean-counting of the student body, we could do other things.
Sometimes liberals tend to think they don’t need to worry about this because they can control the various government bureaucracies to their favored ends. They can’t.Report
Just because there was AA in favour of groups 50 years ago, who have now gained more parity, it doesnt follow that AA worked.Report
I think it’s more a product of the 50 years that have passed rather than the AA policy which have done the most good.
Assimilation takes time.Report
Where do you get that they were starting to assimilate prior?Report
Mingled military units were not a product of AA.
Integration in sports was not a product of AA.
Just a couple off the top of my head.
I have to question this matter of diversity for the sake of diversity though.
I am originally from New Mexico. I work on a team with persons from Memphis, Terre Haute, Louisville, Houston, and other places.
We were brought together for our skills rather than our diversity. We stand or fall according to our skills, and not our place of origin.
Things turning over in my mind. That’s all.Report
The sports is a pretty good point, but integration in the military was a government action.
I have to say I am a big advocate for diversity, though – but I don’t necessarily mean in the “the bar in the Coors commercial has to have one black guy, one latino guy, a hot Asian woman, etc” kind of way.
I think there is something to be said about diversity of ideas and experiences, and that it leads to growth – in school and out. And that also includes people from different race, religious, and socio-economic backgrounds as much as it does political viewpoints. If you will forgive me wandering mentally:
I noted that Tim’s original post (that I was highly critical of) was being discussed by Freddie over at Balloon Juice. So I went over to take a peek. Freddie was long gone from here before I came around, so I have read very little of him – but what I have read I have really enjoyed. He seems smart, clever and compassionate. And I liked his criticism of Tim’s post and defense of AA a lot. But the comment section… oy. It made me want a drink.
I seriously don’t know how those guys can just keep agreeing with one another over and over and over, day after day after day after day without wanting to stick a knitting needle in their eyes. And I am the guy agreeing with them!
Diversity is healthy.
Diversity is actually one of the reasons I choose to call this site home.
Diversity is good.Report
@Tod, viz your diversity point, I’ve been waiting since the days of mansplaining (talk about scotch coming out your nose) to post this link here. Don’t know if we’ve chased Kimmi (nee Kim) off yet but women probably do help the diversity meter more than we’d like to believe sometime (spoken by someone married to one for a statistically significant length of time).
Here’s hoping E.D. finds a willing woman (that sounded wrong) to guest post here.Report
I certainly agree that diversity is preferable in most cases, but I think it’s more of a secondary consideration.
And I keep wondering as I read through the thread of how all this might apply to gender-specific schools.
Considering the matter further, suppose there were a class of 100 students, all of whom were white males from families with similar incomes and from the same geographical location. Wouldn’t the members of this group discover differences between them? You know darned well there’s going to be at least one nerdy kid that gets picked on a lot.
Which makes me believe that the issue isn’t so much of diversity in and of itself, but the degree and <type— that certain manners of diversity are being given preference over other manners of diversity.
For example, racial make-up is being given preference over country of origin, even though in most instances the country of origin would be a greater chasm.Report
That’s two cool links in about 10 minutes. Nicely done! I wonder how much of this finding is due to men trying harder when women are watching? (Since it seems to imply that the men get smarter when women are added to the team.)
And I agree. People here were asking a while back why so few women commented here. Having them post more (at all?) would help there, I think.Report
I think we could look at France’s attitudes on this. They /refuse/ to count races, that’s how egalitarian they are. Therefore it becomes difficult to derive some of the metrics that Patrick likes so well. However, if you truly want an officially colorblind society France is a better example than Brazil.
Affirmative Action has a corollary, Passive Inaction.
BTW here’s an AA link with pro’s and cons side by side.Report
Good find.Report
Also, fwiw, I’m not claiming to know what life would be like today w/out affirmative action, but I think it’s fair to say that France lacked some of the historical ‘difficulties’ we had to deal with.Report
You don’t need to elevate ANY values higher than the “principle of racial nondiscrimination” to be in favor of affirmative action. I gladly support affirmative action because I know that the vast majority of non-white people in America suffer greatly from overt, hidden, inherent, or implicit racism, both from government institutions and social and governmental constructs. Women also suffer compared to men. Affirmative action is necessary because supposedly “objective” tests reflect these biases.
In short, any support for “the principle of racial nondiscrimination” DEMANDS that I also support affirmative action. In fact, I’ll go stronger: your argument against it simply reeks of racism. The failure to acknowledge the true state of affairs can only show willful blindness to or actual support of racism. The failure to support affirmative action simply means you are comfortable with a society that will for the foreseeable future condemn millions to lesser education and prospects simply because of the color of their skin.
Aren’t we done here?Report
Aren’t we done here?
Before Hitler is brought up?
Bite your tongue.Report
Affirmative action discriminates based on race.
Hitler discriminated based on race.
Therefore…
Now we’re done.Report
Heh heh. Textbook refutation, Chris.Report
Would it not be better to identify how the tests are biased and fix that rather than add extra procedures to compensate? Otherwise you aren’t addressing the problem just covering it up.Report
I gladly support affirmative action because I know that the vast majority of non-white people in America suffer greatly from overt, hidden, inherent, or implicit racism, both from government institutions and social and governmental constructs. Women also suffer compared to men.
citation needed
even if minorities are being discriminaed against, it doesnt follow that AA is the best way to address this.
Affirmative action is necessary because supposedly “objective” tests reflect these biases
The mere fact that there is a race gap in standardised testing, it doesnt follow that standardised testing is racially biased. There are other more plausible explanations for the race gap like poverty, which can have sverely detrimental effects on early child development.
Therefore the rest of your argument was just bullshitReport
did you look up the book about Colorblind Racism? That’ll get you started. Then start looking at Field Negro’s website (that’s his nic… it’s riffing off Malcolm X). Read about twenty posts from his website, and learn you something about other people.
Murali,
Can you cite a link saying that all race gap is because of poverty? Because I think you can’t. For one thing: middle class blacks tend to be poorer in wealth than white folks making the same amount of money.Report
“Tim, the problem with this argument is that you are using debate strategies to paint your opposition as people who wish to have racial discrimination rather than eliminate racial discrimination – when I think you know this is not the case.”
The problem with this train of thought is that it doesn’t distinguish what we have control of vs. what we don’t. We cannot control the distribution of races for this or that or discrimination in society but we can (through the political process) determine the content of the laws. Big difference.Report
Are you then arguing that AA has had no impact – of the kind it sought to create, I mean – in the past 50+ years?Report
Not necessarily. But whatever impact it’s had is conflated with a bunch of other things, and the proponents of AA have made little if any effort to sort them out.
Btw, you are talking about AA being 50+ years old which leads me wonder if you aren’t conflating AA with other things yourself.Report
Actually, I’m not suggesting you’re conflating things. When I am talking about AA, I am talking about the process of the government stepping in (right or wrong) to change and eliminate racial or sex discrimination; to that end, I am in fact going all the way back to Brown vs. Board of Education.Report
Well, that’s a category error I think, pretty clear from the definition of affirmative action.
Among other things, it puts you on the other side of my comment half a screen above. We clearly can end the de jure segregation of the public schools.Report
Well then, let me simply rephrase my question. Do you think that either AA (from the sixties on) or the actions of govt in general to impose a reversal of perceived racial barriers (let’s stay with BvB and say from the 50s on) has been successful? Or do you think that the increased equality and integration of women and minorities in workplaces and higher education would have happened similarly (or better?) without the government interference? (This is assuming that we do all agree that there has been progress in that time, of course.)Report
If I understand you correctly, we take increased AA participation in various professions and higher education as goal. And the question is do I think all the litigation, executive orders, AA, and other government or quasi-government actions since Brown vs. BoE have helped that goal? Well, yes, I don’t see why there’s an problem admitting that.
My issue is that framing the problem that way is substantially misleading.Report
How so?Report
At least three ways I can think of:
1. Historically. This is all stuff that’s happened sometime roughly between 1950-2011, we’re not going to look too much harder than that.
2. Legally, which is Tim’s point. Whereas before we were trying to enforce the principle of racial neutrality, now we’re looking to enforce racial favoritism for our ends.
3. My point, which is that AA as it’s currently implemented is a clusterfkkk of bureaucratic overreach that has no accountability or understanding of what is subject to fiat and what isn’t.Report
Tod?Report
Sorry, got off thread. Let me retrace…Report
OK, I’m back.
I’d say you and I agree about what, but maybe or maybe not about when.
I think for me there was a justifiable reason for the implementation of affirmative action, and that from my vantage point the fruits of that decision are both good and obvious.
But I disagree with a lot of AA advocates I know in as much as I think even if you assume that AA is a positive force, you by definition automatically reach a point where it begins to be destructive for all sides.
Are we at that point yet? My guess is that you probably think we’re way past, and Freddie (I’ll use him cause I just read him) thinks that time is far, far in the future. I think we are near but not quite there, but I am willing to be convinced that we are there now.
But as I say in the OP (and, Christ, just about everything I write here) that’s the conversation I think we need to have. I’m not sure the accusations of racism being flung both ways helps anything. (I am not including you in that group btw, Koz.)Report
Ok, in a sense you accept #1, (though I think you’re a bit sloppy about it) in that AA isn’t a “decision” to be “implemented” but a grab bag of various different policies whose justification may wax or wane as time passes.
#2, you’re not buying, that’s the point of the OP.
But I don’t think you’ve come to grips with #3 yet. The idea that we empower a government bureaucracy with no accountability creates all sorts of collateral damage that has little or nothing to do with race.Report
Ummm…. I’d say less haven’t come to grips, more just not seeing it yet.Report
Well yeah, that’s actually kinda my point.
Empowering a unaccountable government bureaucracy to some vaguely specified end creates a lot of collateral damage. Among other reasons, the license that the bureaucracy gets is taken at the expense of the citizens and takes away, in large ways or small, their freedom to act.
And because, just like you said, you’re not seeing it, you don’t put it on the scale of the negative consequences of AA (and things like it). This is contrast to Tim’s argument, where you do, even if you and Tim have a difference of opinion on the matter. In slightly longer form, this is what I wrote in response to another commenter:
https://ordinary-times.com/blog/2011/09/27/california-legislature-proposes-racial-discrimination-in-university-admissions-policy/#comment-191115
And here’s a useful case in point from the WSJ
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904060604576570801651620000.html?mod=WSJ_hp_mostpop_readReport
Have you been following the Ammons/Connell debacle at Widener Law School, Tod?
http://legalinsurrection.com/2011/08/widener-law-school-goes-soviet-demands-law-professor-undergo-psychiatric-evaluation/
It’s pretty outrageous to me.Report
damn you reality and your anti-libertarian ways!Report
Odd. I don’t think Tim considers himself a libertarian.Report
self consideration aside, if it says “IGMFU” like a libertarian, its prolly a libertarian.Report
What if other libertarians would say,
“Jesus, you must be crazy, Tim’s no libertarian”
Perhaps this might be an indicator that you don’t understand libertarianism… more than you’re correct at calling Tim one?Report
Maybe they’re all in it together. Like a conspiracy or something.Report
Dude, spoiler!Report
It would be just like those people.Report
I think you’re not understanding the definition of the word “libertarian” as joey is using it. I think you’re thinking of libertarian as, like, ‘an advocate of civil liberties.’ I thing joey is using it more like, ‘guy I strongly disagree with.’ I think it’s a semantics thing.Report
I giggled at this.Report
let’s back up. i never called him one. you could argue that i said he’s acting like one. what i said is that reality is anti-libertarianism.
now back to pearl clutching about labels.
such pussies.Report
Libs r nasty.Report
Nasty is universal.Report
Kobe is more nasty, thoughReport
> What i said is that reality is anti-libertarianism
You have some heavy lifting to do, there. If that’s what you really wanted to say, you went straight down a rabbit hole.
> Now back to pearl clutching about labels.
> Such pussies.
I bet I can guess where you’re visiting from.Report
Again, I think the difference is semantics.Report
The more I think about this, the more curious I get. Which part of all of this triggered the decision for “p**sies?”
That we use labels? That some of us mocked him? That some of us didn’t and answered him seriously?
This was an ambiguously wielded p**sy.Report
> Which part of all of this triggered
> the decision for “p**sies?”
I’ll guess reflexivity.Report
“if it says “IGMFU” like a libertarian, its prolly a libertarian.”
troll fail. You can’t just say random shit, dude, you gotta have a consistent throughline or else people will just ignore you.Report
He got like fifteen responses to his comment.Report
I never said you called him one. I said I found your comment “odd,” because I am fairly sure that Tim doesn’t consider himself a libertarian.Report
Is there any actual research confirming concrete benefits of racial diversity in higher education? Specifically, the presence of large black and Hispanic populations, since you get large Asian populations without AA?Report
How about the benefit of the publicly funded institutions actually looking like the whole of the state instead of just the nice parts?
Also, in general, the idea of having to interact with people who aren’t like you is seen as a good thing in the rest of the known universe. 🙂Report
At my college, the Asian kids sat over there, the African-American kids sat over there, and the White kids sat over there.
They didn’t interact with each other.Report
your school sounds boring. mine was better. people talked and enjoyed each other.Report
We had Lenny Kravitz and Quantum Leap and grilled chicken breast sandwiches and wine.
It could have been worse.Report
The white boys weren’t trying to pick up the Asian girls?Report
My circle didn’t exactly date a whole bunch.Report
That type of circle is the exact type to try to date Asian girls, though.Report
I said actual research, not hand-wavy assertions.Report
To elaborate, this has always struck me as something its proponents just assume to be a Very Good Thing, without any real evidence that I’m aware of. Which means that it’s an extremely compelling argument, as long as the person you’re trying to convince already agrees with you.Report
Confirming that suspicion isn’t really helping your case.
Also, my kingdom* for an edit button.
*I do not actually have a kingdom.Report
> Also, my kingdom* for an edit button.
You can get one, but it requires indentured servitude.Report
This is an objection that has some merit.
Certain things are not easily subject to direct observation.
One could build a nice little composite metric for measuring successfullness of diversity programs using empirically measurable inputs, but I doubt it would be anything other than bad proxy. Most of the theoretical payoffs for a diverse environment would be either difficult to measure, or longitudinal in nature.
On the other hand, I can imagine it being easier to build a negative proxy. “Lots of interracial epithets and fights in the dining hall” would be a reasonable measure that it’s a *bad* idea, at least.
Do you have an underlying theory as to why you think it would be bad?Report
BBerg, do you mean affirmative action in general? If so,can’t we just look at the difference in both equality and race relations from, say, 1950 and today?
I understand the need for hard, empirical data, but life for blacks from Reconstruction to Brown vs. Board as opposed to BvB to now seems a good indicator. And certainly it suggests “AA Makes things worse for minorities” pretty obviously false – or at least true only under certain circumstances.Report
Well, no, because many, many things have changed since then. It’s entirely possible that some of those things have had good effects and some bad.
But specifically, what I’m asking is whether there’s any evidence that it’s beneficial to students generally, and not just to the AA admits specifically, to have a higher percentage of black and Hispanic students than would be produced by a race-blind admissions policy.Report
I am certainly not aware of any. And since part of the argument is that with a more heterogeneous group you get a more well rounded experience and education, I wonder how you would even get everyone to agree on what metric to use?
GPA average? Drop out rate? Comparative incomes after 10 years? Comparative contentment with lifestyle 10 years later?Report
Being able to say “Some of my best friends are black.”Report
Oh we’ve always been able to SAY it.Report
Except me. Never really met someone a black person (indians dont count)Report
… where are you from, Maine? (which is the whiteest state in teh union).
A friend of mine’s Senior School Trip to New York involved some blokes on the bus pointing and saying “Look, Real Black people!”Report
BB, for evidence I’d suggest this UMich page as a jumping off point. Here’s an abstract from “Effects of Racial Diversity on Complex Thinking in College Students”,
I’d add looking through the bibliographies would add depth of understanding as to what those promoting the diversity rationale are saying.
(Social psychology is not what I study or have studied in any depth, but the challenge, find the research behind these claims in favor of diversity, was too enticing to pass up.)Report
Yes, that’s the sort of thing I was looking for. Granted that the effect of a racial diversity was much weaker than the effect of opinion diversity (maybe we need affirmative action for people who oppose child labor laws?), it’s fascinating that there was any effect at all based on the race of the plants, given that they were just reading scripts.Report
I’ll have to take a look at some of the other papers when I get a chance.Report
Philosophy, seen from afar, seems to recurse over itself, endlessly revisiting its own axioms. Like the Blind Men and the Elephant, mathematicians too, philosophers map their own part of the landscape, building models and attempting to integrate them as best they may into the larger landscape. And philosophy is almost always a reaction, an attempt to reformulate.
Philosophy has its own terms of art. If it seems pretentious, it is an artifice. If it distracts, it attempts to draw your attention to what the philosopher finds important. I would not say philosophy is purposefully exclusionary any more than any other discipline: it demands intellectual rigor and if it seems to be a linguistic tool to reshape reality, it is only another set of lenses. Reality remains safe from philosophy: we all wear our own set of lenses through which we interpret the world we see and the world of ideas. Belief systems come and go, all of them are wrong at some level. I rather like that bumper sticker I saw the other day “You have faith. I have proof.”
Considering how many philosophers have built upon the frameworks of their predecessors, the genealogy of philosophy (especially of the Continental School) seems to be more a process of accretion than competition.
In Brazil, where people come in every skin tone imaginable, they find American racism amusing. The Spaniards and French worked out their racism in terms of precise fractions, mulatto half black, cuarterón one quarter black, tercerón, one third. But the Brazilians are far more class-conscious than Americans, for in our culture today’s poor man might be tomorrow’s rich man as the wheel of fortune turns more rapidly here.
Philosophers are products of their own time: it is most clearly seen in their axioms. Plato’s Republic strove to define justice in terms honest men could clearly understand. In attempting to distil the essence of the various regimes, he would arrive at the concept of the philosopher-king. But no such philosophers have ever governed mankind, for politics is not a matter of abstract principles. Bloody-minded and petty considerations pull the philosopher off his contemplative pedestal and force him to be a king of men. There is no regime governed by principles of honor and justice. There are only the guard rails of law and at best those laws are enforced with impartiality. We can only hope for dispassion in our judges for we shall never have it in our politicians.Report
tercerón, one third
How does that work?Report
I wondered the same thing.Report
Given enough generations, you can approach one third by having one black grandfather plus one black great-great-grandfather plus one black great-great-great-great-grandfather plus one black great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather (etc.) But having a word for that precise situation seems odd.Report
I’m wondering how they identify these people. Do they carry around swatches?Report
No, that would be silly. You need to cut them in half and count the rings.Report
Well, when a man and a woman and another man love each other very much…Report
Hey, welcome back, Mr. Blaise. You’ve been missed in these parts.Report
Word.Report
AgreedReport
In Brazil, where people come in every skin tone imaginable, they find American racism amusing.
I’m sure they do, and racism towards Afro-Brazilians is not a problem at all!Report
By the way, we’ve missed you, but your daughter Kim has kept us from missing you too much.Report
Wait, is Kim BlaiseP’s daughter (or am I being dense)Report
Yes, it was a joke. Vicious yet delicious. I’m so ashamed for giggling.Report
But Kim doesn’t froth at the mouth while ranting about Bush or Repubs like BlaiseP.Report
Blaise is one of the (many, many) folks who embiggens the site by his presence. I’d prefer if we didn’t chase him off through casual cruelty. (Perhaps again)Report
Agreed.Report
Contribute half as much to the conversations on behalf of your views as he does for his, Scott, and you’ll be doing mightily well.Report
… this site helps to calm my nerves. Have noticed the level of profanity decreasing. 😉 I think it’s because the conservatives around here tend to be more skeptical (aka Prove It) rather than dogmatically against liberal solutions.Report
I suspect you dislike philosophical arguments because you routinely misunderstand them. Case in point is your spectacular failure to follow a pretty basic example of analogical reasoning. No, using affirmative action and slavery in the same analogy does not mean the author is equating them in severity of harm. There are many aspects to compare, and in this case, the author hopes to establish that, as with the abolition of slavery, justification for affirmative action rests on arguments of inherent rightness, not the utilitarian impact of the policies.
This analogy is not particularly persuasive, but it is in no wise the emotionally manipulative argument you make it out to be.Report
Dude, using slavery in an analogy to something you don’t like is always an emotionally manipulative argument. That’s why people use it. It’s like saying that someone is ‘similar to’ Hitler, or that certain policies are ‘reminiscent to’ what the Nazis did.Report
I purposely referenced Romans above this morning just so I wouldn’t be Godwin’d and then Jaybird goes and does it and now you too?Report
You know who else did that sort of thing?Report
This made me spit up my scotch. Damn you Rufus!Report
Ah, I just got there before Jay did.Report
Tod,
That’s a dogmatic rule from which my analogy deserves exemption. The analogy is not based on some wispy abstraction: our civic morality against slavery and racial discrimination arose out of the same basic conflict. The question, apt in my view, is why we are left with a bedrock moral principle in the case of involuntary servitude, but only a loose guideline in the case of the underlying moral right to equal protection of the law.
Humanity has purchased much invaluable moral wisdom, at great cost, through some of the violent episodes in our history such as slavery, the Civil War, and, yes, Nazism. I refuse to cede the use of examples from these rich subjects just because the occasional troll or wayward ‘loon-juicer violates Godwin’s Law.
Given that, I hope you will see there is no need to feel emotionally manipulated by the argument.
Report
What is Godwin’s Law?
Also, if you meant no emotional manipulation with your analogy then I will take none from it. If I were in Cali, I would buy you a beer. Or a martini. Your choice, really.Report
Godwin’s law is that in any thread someone is going to compare something to the Nazis or to Hitler eventually. Said mention will shut down discussion. Said person who did the mentioning loses the argument automatically.Report
note: it’s more that someone will compare SomeONE to the nazis, because of their belief.
One isn’t Godwinizing the debate if one brings up Hitler’s economic policy as a point of comparison (though, as always, I’ll wonder why someone uses Hitler instead of Mussolini. If you can’t answer that question, best not to bring up Hitler)Report
Likely they’re just stallin’Report
I don’t cotton much to the “loses the argument automatically” portion. I see it as “kicking it up a notch.”
AW YEAH WE JUST EMERILEDReport
I don’t think there’s a name fr it, but in any discussion of foreign policy, the more belligerent side will eventually invoke Munich.Report
… which is fucking pathetic because it betrays a lack of knowledge of history. Yes, Chamberlain went for appeasement — all the while using the bought time to build up England’s military.
Or Am I Wrong?Report
He came back with a signed piece of paper.
“We have finally achieved War Insurance Coverage For Everybody!”Report
That’s brilliant.
I wonder… is it an unironic reference born of frustration?
Is it a deliberate ploy to push the other guys off their guard?
Is it a deliberate ploy to shame the other guys?Report
I’d say the last, but you know how Manichean I am.Report
All too well.Report
I refuse to cede the use of examples from these rich subjects just because the occasional troll or wayward ‘loon-juicer violates Godwin’s Law.
Technically they’re fulfilling Godwin’s Law, not violating it.
Like Jesus.Report
Its not necessarily so. Sometimes comparisons to clear, obvious examples like slavery is wrong or hitler was evil etc do not say that the acts are morally equivalent, but merely draw attention to a particular principle by using an example where the application and scope of the principle is more stark. It is a blatant misreading to argue that the former is taking place when it is the latter. Freddie, of course, does this all the time. He is perpetually uncharitable in his reading of others, yet demands charity when others interpret him.Report
I responded to you before w.r.t. philosophy:
“I profoundly disagree with this paragraph. Philosophy is the anti-ideology, as someone (I think it may have been TVD) pointed out in an earlier thread. Ideology is baseless belief. Philosophy attempts to establish reasons for things. It is the struggle to find better explanations than those we have received.”
I still totally stand by this now.Report