40 Proof or Stronger
Ethan discusses the education wars.
Okay, here’s a point where my circumstances get in the way. I’ll have to give a lot of context for everybody to understand where I’m coming from. If you want to skip all this, jump down to “Here’s where I come back to Ethan’s quote.”
I live in a historical district in Pasadena, California. The neighborhood got its “Historical District” designation back in the 1980s, when developers were starting to tear down the 1910-1940s bungalows and build mid-density apartment buildings on the fringes of the neighborhood. At the time, the neighborhood park wasn’t great, there was a decent amount of graffiti, lots of drugs in the park, etc. With the historical designation came cachet, and slowly the neighborhood started to turn over. By the late 1990s, almost all of the houses were owned by middle-to-upper-middle-to-lower-upper class people. In the late 1990s, there began a second wave of turnover. Some of the wealthier people (who had restored their houses) and some of the remaining poorer people (who decided to cash in on the elevated property values) started selling to new families.
Pasadena has a long and for a while very bad relationship with public schools. Bussing led to white flight, which persisted for a long, long time. From the late 1980s until nearly 2000 it was just understood that the public schools in Pasadena were terrible, and you don’t send your kids there.
In the late 1990s and early 2000, the school system started making very excellent strides, however. Some late 20-somethings and early 30-somethings started putting off sending their kids to private school at Pre-K to save money (the dot-com bust probably helped quite a bit), and they found that they liked their teachers and they liked their principal and hey, all those minority kids weren’t really scary when you worked the classroom.
Anticipating the question: which came first, the chicken or the egg? Wrong question! The right question is, “Who in their right minds would try and start a poultry farm with one chicken or one egg?”
Active PTAs with money started springing up. Volunteerism in the classrooms started going up as mothers and fathers who would have worked in the Mothers’ Guild or the Parents’ Club at the local Catholic school started spending time in the public school classrooms. People who worked at JPL or Caltech started volunteering more to teach Science courses.
Ethan says, in his piece:
Benedikt is under the illusion that engaged parents is one of the major resources that “good” schools have and “bad” ones don’t.
The way this is phrased, it seems obviously boneheaded, right? However, I don’t know that “this” is an illusion. More on that in a minute.
Back to the me-context part:
I went to private school almost exclusively from grade 1 all the way to graduating college. In my personal experience, I saw a lot of the things that parents complain about as being deal breakers for public school… “You can’t get rid of bad teachers!” or “You can’t get bad egg students out of the classroom” are the two biggest ones. The worst two teachers I ever saw were both private school teachers whom *nobody* liked, and they weren’t going anywhere. The worst students I ever saw skewed pretty highly towards legacy family folk who could get away with anything just shy of murder because their fathers and grandfathers and uncles were all current or former presidents of the Booster Club or whatever. I never bought into these things being deal-breakers for public school, because guess what? They’re not a public school phenomenon. They’re a school phenomenon. Hell, they’re a “human organization” problem.
The next biggest complaint about public school is that the quality of education is poor. Now, I know a lot of teachers who have worked both in and out of the public school system and generally speaking the public school teachers have more training, more current educations, more mentoring support while they’re learning the trade. This applies to the teachers who teach at the inner-city schools, too. They’re no less or more likely to be gliding along on the back of tenure than private school teachers are likely to be gliding along on the back of “I’ve been here for 20 years and nobody is going to fire me”.
All that aside, I’m a pretty bright dude and my wife is no slouch. If we wanted to homeschool, our kids would certainly come out the other end with a decent education. Heck, I have more than a little training, I’ve taught workshops and classes and substitute taught and I even took some education courses back when I was an undergrad. Kitty taught labs when she was in grad school. Unlike many successful homeschooling parents, we’d be going in with some experience.
So, I must be honest, we could have all marginally passable teachers and I wouldn’t consider that necessarily a deal-breaker. When people freak out too much about teacher quality the thought that is always creeping around in the back of my head is, “Wait a second, aren’t you planning on being involved in your child’s education anyway?”
As long as the kids aren’t getting beat up, and they don’t feel physically threatened, and they’re not being actively dissuaded from learning, they’ll probably turn out okay wherever they go. I’m lucky, both of my kids are bright, but they’re not so extraordinarily gifted that they’re bored all the time in class to the extent that it ruins their willingness to be there.
Sudden side note: in Benedikt’s original piece, she wrote:
But many others go private for religious reasons, or because their kids have behavioral or learning issues, or simply because the public school in their district is not so hot. None of these are compelling reasons. Or, rather, the compelling ones (behavioral or learning issues, wanting a not-subpar school for your child) are exactly why we should all opt in, not out.
I realize that this may not be the case in your particular state, but here in California, people who have children with behavioral or learning issues or even physical disabilities don’t send their kids to private school. They typically send them to public school, because the public school system is legally required to provide them advanced support private schools don’t have to offer.
End side note.
Jack and Hannah both go to public school. It’s our neighborhood school. While we live in a fairly well-to-do-enclave here in Pasadena, the neighborhood right next door has a lot of assisted housing and is much more likely to have police interventions than ours. The police helicopter does do-dos often enough that you don’t notice it, and those kids who live in that neighborhood are also in our neighborhood school. Our overall demographics are tiny% white, slightly more than that African-American, a huge Hispanic population and some hodge podge. 70-80% of our kids are on free/assisted lunch. We’re a minority-majority, largely economically disadvantaged student population.
In spite of the fact that the vast majority of our kids are the same kids who get the short shrift when they’re going to schools in some inner city neighborhoods, the fact that there are maybe 20% of the parents in middle/upper middle class makes a huge difference.
Here’s where I come back to Ethan’s quote.
It’s not that middle/upper class parents are “better”. It’s not that they’re more engaged (bad parents can be engaged, and make things worse, poor parents can be engaged, but lack time). It’s not that they have more spare time (they typically have more discretionary time, but that doesn’t mean they use it wisely, poor parents might work double jobs, but still come up with time to volunteer). It’s not that they have more money (although more money always helps). It is all of those things, intertwined.
Given a school population of 500… where 99% of the kids and 99% of the parents are at or below the poverty line, the relative probability that you’ll get engaged, available, thoughtful, dedicated people with extra time AND extra discretionary income is pretty close to zero. You have 5-10 people who might have discretionary income and time. The odds that they’re all also SuperParents is laughable. Hell, maybe you get 1.
Sometimes, 1 is all it takes. Don’t think I’m disparaging the 1, or the possibility of what the 1 can do. Don’t think that I think that one of the parents below the poverty line can’t be ExtraSuperParent. That happens too, sure.
Who in their right minds would try and start a poultry farm with one chicken or one egg?
I’m not talking about those outliers, because they’re outliers.
Given a school population of 500 where 80% of the kids are at or below the poverty line… well, now all of a sudden you have 100-200 parents who might have time and/or discretionary income. Hey, even if only 5% of that 100-200 are SuperParents… that gives you a rotating group of 5-10 PTA presidents and officers pulling off the SuperParent gig.
The funny thing about ground-up organizations is inertia. It takes a lot of pushing to get one of these things to move. Once they start moving, they draw in all sorts of people. Humans are social animals, it’s easy to contribute an hour or so of your time to work at a parent-staffed event even if you’re strapped for time.
It’s not easy to set up and coordinate a parent-staffed event unless you’re willing to spend a lot of time, and sometimes a fairly decent chunk of change.
You don’t need completely integrated schools. You probably don’t need schools with half-and-half disparity between people with income and people without it.
But lemme tell you, 20% makes a big damn difference.
“I realize that this may not be the case in your particular state, but here in California, people who have children with behavioral or learning issues or even physical disabilities don’t send their kids to private school. They typically send them to public school, because the public school system is legally required to provide them advanced support private schools don’t have to offer.”
This tends to be the case if a child has undiagnosed* or undiagnosable needs. They might not qualify or even necessarily need formal support but benefit from smaller classrooms or a more intimate school environment or a more individualized program.
* In certain social circles, there is a huge social stigma on having a child diagnosed with a need. Some parents avoid this by going to an IS to get support off-the-record.Report
Good piece. Don’t disagree with anything except the lack of a title.Report
Dip de der.
Fixed.Report
This is the message folks need to hear.
That you really can make an entire neighborhood better.Report
It’s getting that 20% in place & moving that is the trick.Report
Getting it in place is harder than moving it, from the standpoint of policy.
If they get there, they’ll organize. You’ll get spontaneous combustion if you put enough fuel in one spot.
The interesting thing to me is how tightly this is coupled to how the wealth is distributed in the neighborhoods in a geographical area. The zones of poverty or wealth need to be archipelagos or peninsulas instead of continents.Report
When I lived in Madison, WI, I was always amazed at how you could transition from poor neighborhood to wealthy very quickly. Sometimes by just crossing a major street.
Madison tends to have pretty good schools. Probably because it’s hard to draw district lines that segregate so completely.
But that is an aspect of city planning, not school districts.Report
Yeah, I was thinking that it might not be so bad being the parent who tipped things from 18% to 19%… but it would be “the suxx0rs” to be the parent who tipped things from 2% to 3%.
And because there are so many parents who are unwilling to be the latter, it doesn’t really matter that there are so many parents willing to be the former.Report
But that is an aspect of city planning, not school districts.
And, really, this is why ultimately this isn’t an educational policy problem.Report
Agreed. Cities should be much more proactive about preventing such enclaves from forming. If an area is starting to slide, reversing the trend, or at least keeping it small should be a top priority. I always liked the idea of creating small pockets of affordable housing in an effort to keep the “broken windows” blight from spreading. Never seen any studies of it’s effectiveness, though.
Or if an area is starting to look decayed & housing prices are falling, wouldn’t a city be smart to go in & start talking to the residents & find out why it’s sliding? Go door to door if you have to? Maybe you’ve got some residents who need help, or some bad landlords? Who knows? Well, the city should…Report
MRS,
Being form Madison, obviously I can confirm what you’re talking about for folks, but I can also say that I haven’t had the experience of street-to-street, and seemingly somewhat random (though I’m sure it’s not) variation in overall feel (sense of safety, upkeep of buildings, etc.) anywhere as strongly as I did the first couple of times I went to Milwaukee (past Country Stadium, that is). They used to say that Milwaukee was the most segregated city in America. Though I’m sure that’s changed, I still wonder exactly how that’s determined and how the phenomenon you’re talking about plays into that.Report
Once a neighbourhood has become a destination target for poor people, it’s not as hard to keep the poor out as to keep the former residents from leaving. It’s not always White Flight but often it is. Used to play in a band with an urban planner, a city administrator. He thought it was impossible to keep a neighbourhood from sliding into decay. Once it gets to a certain point, you’re better served to bring in the bulldozers and start over.
But there are things which can be done to save a neighbourhood. Elgin IL enacted some zoning ordinances to clear out several crack houses, beautiful old Queen Anne carpenter’s gothic buildings. The ordinances were effective, if somewhat less than Politically Correct:Report
Blaise,
You get both Virtuous and Vicious cycles. Well, at least in cities. Suburbs are pretty much Vicious from the get go, and they do NOT improve.
MRS,
Detroit stands as an example that Vicious cycles happen citywide, more often than not. Ditto with Virtuous (lookit pittsburgh or NYC).Report
Back in the 40’s (I think, maybe earlier), Madison had a big problem with crime that it was felt stemmed from the tight knit ethnic enclaves that had grown up in certain areas (I used to live in the old Italian enclave). The city quite forcibly broke up those enclaves. Some buildings were leveled, but mostly they just made everyone move & scattered the residents all over.
It was a big deal, & not popular at the time, but it seems to have worked, & the people displaced assimilated.Report
McMeagan chimes in. I think her position is more closely related to this post.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-08-29/is-it-evil-to-send-your-kids-to-private-school-.htmlReport
Yeah, she makes a point similar to the one that I have made: private schools and charters/magnets prevent flight-to-suburbia.Report
Is this what we see in countries with fewer charters and private schools, Will?
I’d say very much not, and the empirical facts available suggest your worry is misplaced.Report
First, Shaz, we are not other countries. We already see people choosing housing on the basis of schools. I see little or no reason to believe that those who send their kids to private schools would behave in a completely different manner. I am not suggesting something new would happen. I am talking about the furtherance of something that has been happening longer than I have been alive.Report
Wherever we end up*, I intend to give the public schools every opportunity. I doubt, pretty strongly, that there will be a problem. I’d be lying if I said that I wasn’t going to keep an eye on the local schools when deciding where to live, of course. When I was substituting in Redstone, I mentally etched out where I would and wouldn’t live, if we settled there. But if the lines moved, I wouldn’t move with them necessarily. Nor would I pull my kids out and homeschool them.
That said, I’m not going to put my kids on the firing line so that I can Make a Difference (not that Patrick is advocating thus). The collective action problem isn’t my problem, or my kids. Back when my folks lived near where I do now, Mom tried mightily to turn things around for the school district (the vice-president of their first-ever PTA!), to no avail. And, contra Benedikt, I am not under any obligation to.
Which, I admit, is a pretty depressing situation.
* – Okay, except Deseret. In Deseret, you consider the Lutheran school so that your kids can get a secular education without religious harassment.Report
Redstone as in near Carbondale? Is that place big enough to have a wrong side of the tracks? I used to live near Basalt and loved going to the Redstone inn for their house smoked trout.Report
Trumanverse Redstone.Report
LOL. Thanks. Nope, not the Redstone I knew and loved.Report
In certain areas Redstone would be prime for gentrification and warehouse revival into loft.Report
Okay, except Deseret. In Deseret, you consider the Lutheran school so that your kids can get a secular education without religious harassment.
Space awesome. Go Lutherans!Report
I think the thing that irked me most about the Slate article was not the idea, because she doesn’t advocate for requiring people to have their kids sent to bad schools, it was the whole shaming bit. Saying such parents are bad.
Are people who do not mark themselves as organ donors bad people? The world would be better if 100% of people were organ donors, but does that make people bad because they don’t?Report
Eh, I look at this differently.
“Are people bad because of (foo)?”
Well, sure. They’re bad for lots of reasons. Human beings can be stupid and venal and self-absorbed and self-obsessed and self-righteous (cough, cough) and many other things.
Since we are we expecting people – including ourselves – to be good all the damn time? Isn’t that a crappy way to design public policy?
Oh, wait… we’re not?
Then aren’t you sort of just blowing off some self-righteousness? Hey, congrats, you’re a bad person too. Come join the club! First drink is free!Report
Hence the 40 proof.
I like my Scotch neat, single, & old enough to date, thank you very much.Report
How many CalTech faculty members send their kids to public school?
I lived in Brooklyn from 2006-2008. My neighborhood was a classic gentrification story for Brownstone Brooklyn. The original and very nice rowhouses were built in the 1800s but by the 1930s-40s, it became a very rough neighborhood and largely populated by Irish and Italian dockworkers. Most of these dockworkers fled during the 60s and 70s. Starting in the 1980s and continuing at a good to accelerating pace, the neighborhood starting filling with families priced out of Manhattan (if you were daring and willing to buy a fixer-upper you got a classic piece of NY housing cheap) and young professionals started coming in later (probably around the early aughts).
My apartment was between Smith Street and Hoyt Street. Smith street was a main shopping drag with nice bars, fashionable boutiques and some relatively upscale brands (Lululemon, Lucky Brand, Brooklyn Industries) and restaurants and bars. Hoyt Street contained a massive public housing complex.
When I was apartment searching, the real estate agent (you need a real estate agent to get a good apartment in NYC) made sure to point out which apartments were located in the good school district. As far as I can tell, the good school district was about ten-twenty minutes walking distance from the bad school district. Being childfree, I could not tell what made one school district better over the other.
There were also some public middle schools and high schools in my neighborhood. As far as I can tell, the elementary schools had a pretty diverse student body. The local middle and high schools had student bodies that were pretty much black and Hispanic.
Now I wonder it is about NYC public schools that parents feel like they can get involved at the elementary school level and make it a good or decent experience but once the kids reach middle school, it becomes much less so. Though there might be issues about where kids go to school. I think NYC and other cities tries to keep elementary school kids in local schools but once they get to middle or HS, they can be sent anywhere or almost anywhere in the city.
LeeEsq lives in a different NYC neighborhood. His neighborhood until recent history was always poor and filled with working-class immigrants. A Tree Grows in Brooklyn takes place in poor Williamsburg, so does A Summer in Williamsburg, and the Chosen. Now the neighborhood is one of the richest and trendiest in Brooklyn. Instead of Chaim Potok’s immigrant Jews who are fresh from the Pale or first generation Americans, you have Lena Dunham’s third generation Girls. Sometimes the neighborhood is called Billyburg with affection. The other nickname is Babyburg because of the amount of strollers.
A lot of these gentrifiers are not departing for the suburbs but are trying to be that 20 percent you talked about and changing and challenging the standards and subjects of local public schools. Interestingly this puts them at odds and war with the poorer Hispanic community that has different wants and needs than wealthier whites. I would see a lot of “take back our schools” activism from the hispanics posted on billboards in protest of the white gentrifiers reforms and changes.
Does this happen in Pasadena?Report
How many CalTech faculty members send their kids to public school?
Hm; that’s a good question. I don’t know. To clarify, just in case this is still unknown in these parts: I am not faculty.
A lot of these gentrifiers are not departing for the suburbs but are trying to be that 20 percent you talked about and changing and challenging the standards and subjects of local public schools. Interestingly this puts them at odds and war with the poorer Hispanic community that has different wants and needs than wealthier whites…. Does this happen in Pasadena?
Also a good question.
Yes and no. There’s a lot of rancor in the public school district between parents and teachers, between teachers and administrators, between administrators and the board, between the members of the board, themselves, etc.
Some of this is borderline crazy contentious, but a lot of it is driven by a desire for the schools to be better, generally… just really strong opinions (often conflicting) about what is the best way to make the schools be better. There are pro-testing, anti-testing, pro-charter, anti-charter, etc. etc. groups.
I’m a member of the District Advisory Council, so I sit in meetings with representatives from each schools’ Site Council. My wife is former President and current Treasurer of the kids’ school PTA, and she’s active in the regional PTA.
In my personal experience, I don’t see a lot of this broken down at the racial level. Generally, the racial tensions in the public school system are more closely coupled to group norms towards things like volunteerism, than an idea that “that group” is trying to take over the schools to “our groups”‘s detriment.Report
I’m moved by her argument, but unfortunately I don’t have kids to send to public school. Instead, I’m going to quit my job and go on welfare, so that I have some skin in that game.Report
Do. You’ll find your perspective changes rapidly.Report
Would your perspective will evolve, yes? Would it reverse into a different direction? Not necessarily.Report
Bah! I thought this was the original post about that article. I’m really bad at this today.Report
Why are we disregarding the census data which shows that poor parents have substantially more leisure time than the other classes?
It does not take money to be involved if you have time. At least some poor parents clearly do have time. So why don’t poor parents get involved in the kids’ education?
Are poor parents worse at taking responsibility for their kids? If so, what is the real reason, since it does not appear to be time?Report
Why are we disregarding the census data which shows that poor parents have substantially more leisure time than the other classes?
Can you post a link to the data you’re talking about, specifically?Report
Wasn’t it because poor people tended to work less. So a highly questionable assumption was made that working less equaled more leisure since that lack of work might be involuntary or the result of other issues. So someone with a serious medical problem would have extra leisure by virtue of being bedridden. Or someone might have extra leisure but be spending their time looking for work or lack a car because they are poor.Report
Here are the studies of leisure. Leisure for the non retired is increasing across the board, but most in less educated segments. Note also the data by marital status and work status.
http://www.bos.frb.org/economic/wp/wp2006/wp0602.pdf
This approaches the problem from the working angle. It shows actual Census data on hours worked and FT employment by class.
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/cpstables/032011/hhinc/new05_000.htm
68% did not work. 17% have a full time job. Statistically, almost none are two income.
Obviously we are looking at the same issue from many sides. I believe there is a myth that some have that the poor are especially busy. I am confident it is not true.
Thus, you should at least consider that one of your central premises in this excellent post may be incorrect. Do the poor actually get involved less at school? If so, if it is not because they are too busy, then why not?Report
I’m reading the PDF as time permits. Immediate thoughts follow.
I believe there is a myth that some have that the poor are especially busy. I am confident it is not true.
I’m not confident that it is untrue, but I think we’re throwing around extremely diffuse blanket terms that are very likely clouding things.
Do the poor actually get involved less at school?
In my experience, economic cohort is correlated with activity levels. The farther away you are from the poverty line, the more likely it is that you will be an active parent. This obviously is just a correlation; but if you take the N most active parents in the school, a disproportionate number of them will be the higher-income/wealth families.
If so, if it is not because they are too busy, then why not?
Well, granted there are potential cultural factors. In some cases of fairly recent immigration, the parents may come from nations where the cultural norm is that you don’t mess with the schools, you drop your kids off and let the school do its business. To the extent that this is also correlated with poverty, you’ll see overlap there, sure. Just for one contributing factor.
However, I don’t know that “too busy” is the right metric. It seems very uncommon for the people near the poverty line to be the same type of busy as the middle class folk. Middle class folk deal with a lot less overhead, as it were.
For example, one of the most active families in our PTA is a double-income couple where the wife has a very flexible work schedule. They work their asses off; they are fairly solidly middle class. They have very little “leisure” time, as I would use the term, but they have discretionary time… they just choose to use the discretionary time in a way that I don’t really call it “leisure” (lots of volunteering, for one thing).
On the other hand, we have some very invested people on the other side of the poverty line who spend as much time as they are able at the school… but that discretionary time is much less effective than the previous couple, as far as the school’s practical needs are concerned.
A few common reasons: they don’t have free time during school hours and it’s difficult for them to get it (they don’t have flextime; this is a very large factor, they are much more likely to be in low-wage jobs with little flexibility in work hours). They don’t have reliable transportation (they take the bus). They don’t have reliable child care. They are more likely to have larger families (again, cultural and religious factors), thus they are more likely to have younger children that require time dependencies that you can’t meet at the school (hard to volunteer with a baby under your arm).
The overhead cost of spending time at the school of the second example can be quite high.
So while the second family may have more “leisure” time as defined for the purposes of the FRB paper, they may simply not have time that correlates with available time slots to volunteer, at the school.Report