Clarifications on a comment culture
In the handful of years this site has been active, we’ve banned four users and a couple dozen IP addresses. Trolls are persistent and take on many identities. It requires some work to ban them completely. This is one reason we do it very rarely, despite some fly-by-commenters’ assertions to the contrary.
I feel the need once again, as the roster of writers and commenters has grown, to outline not just a comment policy but our vision for what a comment culture ought to be like.
First, a few clarifications on what we expect from writers and commenters.
Deleting comments should be a last resort. Frankly, unless it is a banned commenter or someone issuing personal threats I would prefer that either Mark, Jason, Tod, or myself is emailed about the issue prior to any deletion.
Comment threads should not be closed without editorial approval. I don’t think we’ve ever specified this before but I could be wrong. The reason is simple: this is a community. Commenters are as integral a part of this community as the writers – indeed, many of the writers here were once (and remain) commenters. Shutting down comment threads without good reason is disrespectful to the community, even if it is unintentionally so. We had to shut down comments on one of Mark’s posts recently due to a serious troll problem that was escalating. Before that I can’t recall the last time I was aware of such an action. It’s been a while.
I know that this may sound tyrannical, but as writers here you really don’t have a final say on how a thread shapes out. Writers can and should police their threads by jumping in to stop thread-jackings (when appropriate and when time permits) but they should not delete comments or shut down threads unless they have good cause and have gone through the correct channels. If you have any doubt, ask me. You can also contact other admins here: Mark, Jason, or Tod. We have a pretty flat corporate culture at the League, but a hierarchy does exist to keep the peace.
Commenters need to police themselves as well. There has been an ongoing conflict between certain commenters and writers here and frankly I think that’s part of building a community. People have to hash these things out as best they can. But let’s be respectful to other authors and commenters also. Thread-jacking and making discussion after discussion a meta-conversation about this person or that person ends up muddying up important topics and can be frustrating for a writer who has spent time and energy putting a post together. I realize that this is unavoidable to some degree. I have no intention of doing anything about this sort of squabbling. But please consider the unintended consequences.
The vision for a comment culture that I have is not merely a civil combox. It’s an organically self-ordered system built on stable and predictable rules: very few bans, very few comment deletions, etc. To achieve this a certain voluntary order needs to be achieved by all participants, coupled with a certain subtle yet very real level of authority on the part of admins. Hence the few rules we do have are rules we need to live by. We do very little to actively interfere, but we can only maintain that if all the expectations of self-ordering are met.
(P.S. On sub-blogs the rules change depending on the blog, though it is my hope that most sub-blogs model their comment policy after the front page.)
I don’t mean this to be finger-pointing at anyone in particular, though I know some will feel that way. Rather I think we’ve been too vague for too long and our attempts to communicate have not been enough. If there are any questions, please fire them off in the comments. If I’m forgetting anything or if you disagree with any of this please say so.
(P.P.S. I’m starting to tinker with a couple ideas for a site redesign bringing the whole thing up to speed with our modern, high-tech, tablet and mobile world. We’ll see.)
Love that comic. And I appreciate this post.Report
It’s a timeless classic. Glad you appreciate the post.Report
I was actually thinking about last night amidst the dialogue going on here.Report
The cartoon explains why I wanted to get some sleep and not have 50+ angry comments waiting for me in the morning that I could not and would not want to sort through. [Such a thing had happened just a day before on a different thread.]
BSK’s solution was perhaps more elegant:
In any case, the post was not overrun—perhaps due to BSK’s good graces [or perhaps from being closed for the night], and so I’ll return to it and hope to answer all good faith inquiries.
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Tom-
As I’ve always maintained, my issues with you are not of a personal or ideological nature, but largely are stylistic. When you are right, I will say so. When you are wrong, I will say so. When someone wrongs you, I will defend you, as I have done. My goal is too always pursue truth, learning, and personal growth.Report
Well, thank you for reading me charitably [above], BSK. A little of that goes a long way with me. Cheers.Report
A charitable reading was dictated by my larger pursuit of truth and growth.Report
But the really important thing is Rick Santorum’s disgraceful lie about the ACA!
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Who’s he?Report
Well played.Report
I like your style, Kain.
As a general rule, I would say that the fewer rules there are to anything, the more stringently they need enforced.
To paraphrase Nietzsche:
One rule is more of a rule than many rules, for it is more of a knot for a man’s blog to cling to.Report
Nietzsche blogged?Report
There are less accurate descriptions of his hashish period.
I mean, if you see it as a style rather than a medium.Report
No, but that’s where the term ‘paraphrase’ comes in to play.
It’s a rhetorical technique often used to adapt a prior observation to a current context.
The quote is:
One virtue is more of a virtue than many virtues, for it is more of a knot for a man’s soul to cling to.
However, by means of paraphrase, I adapted this observation– and without arguing the findings of the particular observation (which are a bit dubious imho)– to a current context.
It is a ploy of subsuming context; yet nevertheless a somewhat useful rhetorical device.
I am truly surprised that you have not had prior experience with paraphrase.
It seems to be quite common.Report
I was making a joke, Will.Report
I see.
Bwa- hah- hah- hah- haaaaaaaa!!!!
Wrong laugh.
Sorry.Report
“The trouble with quotes on the internet is that it’s difficult to discern whether or not they are genuine.”
? Abraham LincolnReport
The commenting culture is what really makes LoOG so valuable and unique. I do not know of another website / blog that has such thoughtful and articulate writers, combined with a genuine diversity of views. And the conversation is, in the main, civil. I had followed the occasional link here over the years, but just started engaging in a meaningful way here over the last month or so.
When I graduated college I wanted to go into policy law, and somehow or another ended up in the technology business. I don’t really have any regrets, but I do miss the kinds of conversations that are more common among liberal arts majors. Somehow, the circles that I run in in the meatworld have different kinds of conversations, and the meandering “big question” explorations found here are not generally part of them. So finding LoOG has made my life feel richer, and I appreciate everyone in the community for having made that so.
That having been said, there is one major style of commenting that degrades the conversations (other than obvious trolling): dismissing the good faith of the people that you’re engaged with. People get different things from their internet communities, and it appears that provocation as sport is something that many seem to enjoy. It is to the credit of LoOG that there don’t seem to be too many of those here.
But, like anything precious, civilized conversation really has to be cultivated. In a thread from yesterday, someone enumerated the users that have actually been banned, and about half of them were already familiar with me–these are folks who have kind of made a hobby of despoiling political conversations all over the wonkisphere. LoOG seems to be doing a pretty good job; and callouts plus 99ing seems to be a pretty effective way of keeping things reasonably honest and reasonably respectful.Report
“That having been said, there is one major style of commenting that degrades the conversations (other than obvious trolling): dismissing the good faith of the people that you’re engaged with.”
Sadly I must say that, after watching repeat after repeat after repeat of the same behavior of the same bad-faith actors, one or two of which have managed to get FP posting status, one reaches a point where assuming good faith is (outside of the Wikipedia definition, which is its own ridiculousness, since you are supposed to “assume good faith” but also remember that “if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck“…
And of course, I am pretty sure ED Kain above is making an oblique mention of myself when he says “fly-by commenters. By doing so, he’s engaging in the fishing bull manure that Wikipedia refers to as a “single purpose account” tagging; what he’s really doing is dog-whistling “don’t worry guys, feel free to ignore the person I’m talking about because they are Obviously Up To No Good.”Report
People who can do nothing more than complain are boring. You are welcome to comment elsewhere or start your own blog where you write the rules.Report
In other words, you want me to leave.
Just say so then. I’ll be happy to let you create your own little circle-jerk of dishonesty here if that’s your goal.Report
No, Kenneth. He is saying that if you don’t like the rules here, the door is to the left.Report
I’d prefer you to just stop bitching and moaning and take a deep breath. Then you could assess what I’m doing with this post honestly. Otherwise your option is fine.Report
Someone seems a bit more testy than usual today.
In a purely subjective sense, of course.Report
I think he’s trying to tell you that it’s time to put your happy pants on.
If you need to pay a visit to the changing room for a while, that’s fine.
But, for the most part, turdishness is often taken to be turd-like.
Nothing wrong with changing your pants from time to time.
The Founding Fathers did it!
Must be good.Report
This was hilarious. Monday is already looking up.Report
“In other words, you want me to leave.”
Would you be happier if he said that?
Because I’ve seen people who would, in fact, be happier if they were asked to leave (or told to leave, or banned.) Because then they could go out into the world thinking that they were Just Too Cool For Those Guys who just couldn’t handle the realtalk.Report
That having been said, there is one major style of commenting that degrades the conversations (other than obvious trolling): dismissing the good faith of the people that you’re engaged with.
I think I agree. And the corollary–and where I sometimes fall short–is “one should not (usually) take the bait and let oneself get drawn down into a drawn out argument about good faith.” There is at least one author on this blog, and not the one a lot of people complain about, whose comments and sometimes posts I often interpret as personal attacks on others’ good faith. I should be satisfied with just calling that out once in a while, but sometimes I let myself get dragged in to a larger “meta-discussion.” Such discussion has its place, of course, but in moderation.
Might I also say that I love this blog, and even have a lot of admiration and respect for the one author who I sometimes have trouble with.Report
Is there some magical limit on the number of links that can be put into a comment? While you’re fixing your site, PLEASE for the love of god come up with a login system or some better way to manage spam. I’m going to assume my prior comment is now caught in spam filter hell.Report
I think two is the standing limit.
Patience is a virtue.
Not for what is does for others, but for the peace it brings to oneself.Report
Will, well spoken.Report
Thanks.
I believe I picked that up from James Allen’s As a Man Thinketh, an excellent little book.Report
Patience is a virtue.
Not for what is does for others, but for the peace it brings to oneself.
Much like forgiveness.Report
Kenneth –
I think I might know why your comments tend to get caught in the filter, and perhaps how to correct it. (Unfortunately, due to the limitations on the WordPress end the correction would need to be done on your end. Sorry about that.) For all kinds of reasons I don’t want to go into in on an open thread; but if you ever want to shoot me an email I would be happy to explain.
The above obviously goes for anyone else reading this that thinks they are having similar problems.Report
I understand what some people are frustrated about. I think there’s a very broad range in quality of writers here: there are truly thoughtful, interesting ones, and there are ones who a decidedly otherwise. Quite frankly, I don’t think left-wing commenters who used this blog for partisan claims, intellectually dishonest arguments, and distorted facts to the degree that Tom or Mike do would get much credence, and certainly wouldn’t get taken on as front-page writers. Nor should they. I’d prefer that the blog maintain a certain standard of quality and, though I recognize its libertarian-leaning tendencies, I’d prefer that that standard was consistent between the sides of the political spectrum.Report
+1, Katherine.Report
Katherine,
Are you saying that the Leftist worldview is under-represented? And, to which “Mike” are you referring?Report
Mike Dwyer.
And not precisely. The leftist worldview certainly is underrepresented at League, but that in itself is okay – I don’t ask for it to be perfectly ideologically balanced. This place has been my go-to site for intelligent conservatism, just at Ta-Nehisi Coates’ blog is my go-to site for intelligent liberalism (and incidentally, I think TNC’s commenting community is the best one I’ve seen). I wouldn’t mind seeing a couple more left-wing writers here, though.
The more important problem is simply quality of content. If the League is going to choose right-wing partisans with little intellectual honesty as some of its primary writers, then at minimum it should select some liberals as front-pagers as well – if nothing else, to refute them, and avoid dropping all of the burden on us commentators to do a bunch of research every time the right-wingers make false or misleading claims.Report
Katherine – I’d love you to put your money where your mouth is and submit a guest piece…. (I mean that sincerely by the way.)Report
I’m feeling constantly swamped with grad school work these days, but I’d be interested in doing that some time. It would probably relate to foreign policy, and likely concern Obama, Israel-Palestine, or both.Report
Katherine, I’m curious why you think the League is a place to go for intelligent conservative conversation. The reason I wonder is cuz this place strikes me as operating on a different plane than either conservatives or liberals, and if I’m wrong about that – and it really is a conservative site – I need to change my bumper stickers.Report
Ditto Still’s curiosity. This may have once been the case, but it’s pretty much a wild-stretch at this point, given the presence of Ethan, Shawn, Ryan, Elias, myself, and various others writing on the FP.Report
There’s a fair variety, but the majority of the political material is very skeptical on the role and powers of government, and most often focuses on domestic policy. To me, that generally fits with conservative and libertarian inclinations. Liberal positions tend to be a lot more skeptical on government powers when it comes to the military, security, and police, and more willing to accept a larger government role in economics, social welfare, and similar domestic policy matters. And then there’s just League idiosyncrasies, like most of the writers except Elias regarding Citizens United as a good or neutral decision.
I agree that this blog is also unique, and less exclusively political than your typical politics blog.Report
I think the lack of focus on international issues has less to do with political ideology than it does with the expertise of the writers. (Nob being the obvious exception, of course.)
FWIW, past that I’m not sure that I see the same thing regarding trust of government from the writers. I would agree that there are a fair amount of writers here who write about limiting government, but I’m not sure it isn’t a minority at this point. Aside from myself, I think of Ryan, Elias, Ethan, Kyle, Alex, Shawn and Burt as people who write all the time about the positive or necessary role of government on domestic issues – even on a federal level. And is there anyone here that writes posts arguing for greater government security, police powers and military actions? I rather think that’s one area where there is very little variety here. Not everyone here would call these stances “liberal” as you do, but I think it’s one area where we are all by and large on the same square, policy wise.Report
While I’m one of the liberals here i don’t feel the LOOG is suffering from a lack of liberal views. It would be more interesting if there were more, but nothing is perfect and that kind of thing is a moving target. I think the front pagers are in general the best group this blog has had. A couple years or so, this was turning into a libertarian only place but that has shifted much for the better. I get Katherine’s issue about so many front pagers being of the skeptical of gov school ( domestic policy). I think there a lot of meta reasons for that but they don’t reflect on the quality of the FP.
People can take this as a knock on conservative blogs, but most of them are mediocre at best and have nothing near the variety of voices or quality of dialogue we get here.Report
I actually think that liberalism is adequately well represented in the choir here: however, because this is a fairly wonky site, I think it attracts wonky liberals, who tend to be more skeptical about traditional, command regulation. So in that sense, it’s true: there are not many Roosevelt liberals in this community. But I do think that (neo-)liberals, sympathetic to traditional liberal objectives, are a significant part of LoOG.
Just think of them as liberals with a twist of libertarian.Report
+1
I’ll add that if there is a thoughtful conservative blog, I’d like someone to tell me because I’d like to read it.Report
+1 on Pierre’s +1
I was about to comment that, like Katherine, I come here as well to get a conservative perspective. Not so much because I consider LoOG a conservative blog, but because thoughtful conservative commenting is so hard to find.Report
“I’m curious why you think the League is a place to go for intelligent conservative conversation.”
Well, they refuse to outright ban the hateful spewers of hate speech. Obviously, therefore, it’s a conservative site.Report
I don’t see anything in Katherine’s comment about banning.Report
Although I set up my clippings dump over a month ago, it’s poignant that this particular one from Ben Franklin should come up today. Similar sorts of issues came up with similar aggregations of intellects a quarter of a millenium ago. Ben F. and friends had to experiment with different sorts of ways to handle them just as we do until they found the right mechanism for them to get the kind of intellectual culture they sought, an intellectual culture which is very similar to that to which we aspire here, today. Ecclesiastes 1:9-10, &tc.Report
That’s easy for you to say, being a pseudonym.Report
Nothing new about pseudonyms, either. Ask James “Publius” Madison.Report
I had a pithy response planned, but yours was pithier.
Not that I want to get into a pithing contest.
(still surprised the spell check didn’t pick those up)
At any rate, I wish to make note (pun intended) that ‘H’ is German for B-flat.Report
On the topic of monikers, stylings, and nomenclature, I remember a point, not long ago, when Hanley was asking you about the phrase, “substantive due process.”
For lack of a better place to put this, it’s right here at page 18.Report
Is it all right to call someone a self-bloated, pompous, deceptive, footler, if that’s what they are? This is not aimed at anyone in particular, I’m just wondering, in case someone like that comes along.Report
Please elaborate on the “self-bloating” part.
How is it possible in such a medium to determine the origin of perceived bloat?Report
Maybe he knows that the guy in question eats way, way to much salt?Report
It’s when someone is bloated by self-adoration. You can tell by the way they always write about themselves and their accomplishments and their intelligence, and their degrees, and their past exploits, and their adventures, and their selfish bloatedness.Report
Sorry, I’ve been wearing my fat pants recently.Report
Off topic, but how do you changemthe gravatar thingy?Report
http://www.gravatar.comReport
DID IT WORK?Report
THAT. IS. AWESOME!!!!!
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Alas, it is simply a picture I found online when Google Imaging an old nickname I once used and what I would probably blog under if I ever did blog. That kid’s parent will probably kill me one day for attaching his photo to my ramblings.Report
I delete comments all the time. That’s why there are so few of them on my posts!Report
Yeah! Me too!
Also, I delete a lot of my posts. I’m really quite prolific.Report
I suggest that commenters be given the power to delete posts.Report
I actually think that liberalism is adequately well represented in the choir here: however, because this is a fairly wonky site, I think it attracts wonky liberals, who tend to be more skeptical about traditional, command regulation. So in that sense, it’s true: there are not many Roosevelt liberals in this community. But I do think that (neo-)liberals, sympathetic to traditional liberal objectives, are a significant part of LoOG.x
Just think of them as liberals with a twist of libertarian.Report
Oh man, that last line is lovely. I totally agree.Report
Pardon a question that may seem off topic but…
Why are you using blogging software when forum software would serve your purposes far better? Most blogs are about the blogger. If comments are allowed at all they are for just that. Comments. It is ill suited for following the thread of an argument.
This is more like a debating society. It is all about the comments which are far more than stand alone comments. The clumsy threading and lack of control make it difficult to even keep up with one branch of the discussion. This clumsiness may be part of the problem you are having.
A vbulletin forum would give you far more options for dealing with problems. You could still set it up so that only certain people could open a thread. If you wanted to keep the blog front end you could still do that. Just close comments on the blog and post a link to the forum thread.Report
Hmm, just my two cents, but this doesn’t sound good at all. Forum tends to be messier in my experience, and there will definitely be less linking and responses from other bloggers. Besides, much as I enjoy reading (some) of the commenters here, the reason you read a blog is to read the opinion of a certain blogger or bloggers, the comment section is more a “take it or leave it” proposition. Some people don’t read comments at all.Report
I agree that turning this place into an open forum would be a really bad idea. Most internet forums are troll infested wastes of time. I’m simply suggesting that they use forum software to handle comments. It would still be locked down so that I could not start a new topic. It would still be up to the people on the masthead to set and control the topics and discussion. You could even keep the blog as a front end. Nothing would change except the commenting software.Report
This is a blog first and foremost. That we work to build a healthy comment culture is one thing. A forum would change the nature and purpose of this site so drastically…honestly I find it a bizarre suggestion.Report
Yes I understand what you are saying but I think you misunderstand what I am saying. I agree that converting this place to an open forum would drastically change the nature of the place for the worse. It would destroy the power and focus of this place.
But I’m not suggesting that you become just another internet forum with all their problems. I’m only suggesting you use forum software to handle comments. Nothing else needs to change at all. You still control the topics. You are still the only one who can open a topic or say who can open a topic. As I said you could still even use the blog post as a front end to start a thread.
Blog software simply was not designed for extensive discussions. I find it almost impossible to keep up with who said what or even find my own posts. Forum software is much better at that and properly set up would change nothing else at all.
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MetaFilter Talk has a feature in which new comments (comments added since your last visit to the site, but less than a day ago, or something similar) are highlighted in a different color. I’m not sure if there is a WordPress plug-in that can accomplish the same thing, but it would be an awesome way of keeping tabs on evolving conversations.
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Thats great but how about the ability for me as a user to turn the threaded display on and off? How about the ability to quickly go to the first unread comment? How about being able to see the last dozen OP’s all on the same screen instead of scrolling down one long page for a post title only half remembered.
How about giving the blog owner the power to say who can and cannot delete a post. How about the power to split off and move an off topic but interesting subthread?
A blog was intended as a daily log of thoughts and activities. Comments are something of an afterthought. It really isn’t suited for extensive discussions.Report
If you are serious about this, I would think it would be more effecatious to request a front page post, and to elaborate your idea (with specific software, links to other sites that have implemented it) and see if you can persuade the “community” — and more importantly, the admins–of the relative virtues of the approach. Somone would have to put in many, many hours of work to make it happen.
But as a tangent on an unrelated post, you’ll never generate the consensus (and heat) that could potentially lead to a change. I don’t consider the current software “broken,” but some of the capabilities you speak of sound very useful. Other than the difficulty tracking threads over time, I have no issues with the current setup. But I’m persuadable, and I suspect many others would be, as well, if you made a solid case for it.Report
As a completely unrelated aside, I am digging the C. George.Report
Well, it had to be either George or Josef Stalin…Report
Yeah. It’s hard to think of one without thinking of the other.Report
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T8y5EPv6Y8Report
That was all kinds of awesome.Report
Hey, I don’t have the time to do this kind of thing. I barely have time to tell other people what they should be doing. If I did have time I would have a forum that listed many more blogs than this one. I would have a kind of clearing house for all may favorite blogs. And maybe some of my least favorite blogs. Imagine uncommon descent with unmoderated comments and the kind of diversity that they actively discourage. I would probably get sued.
I read a lot of blogs but I only read comments sporadically. This is partly because of the clumsy nature of blog comments and partly because blog comments often lack diversity.Report
football-outsiders has a good comment sections. Comments are nested, but numbering is static. So if there are two comments, numbered one and two, and someone resopnds to number one, their response is number three, even though it appears above number 2 on the page. It also highlights all unread comments since your last refresh. You have to be a registered user (registration is free) so you won’t see all of this unless you are, but it works very well.Report
The Oil Drum has a good commenting system, with minus signs you can click on to skip entire sub threads that have gone off into the tumbleweeds (or that simply don’t interest). Of course once you click on the minus sign it turns into a plus sign to expand the nested comments back out. I will admit it gets tough on this site to keep track of comments, not to mention that I don’t use the email tracking and mostly play hopscotch with the rolling Gifts of Gab thing-y on the left.
I have to admit when I drop out of conversations it is mostly because I’m distracted by the bright shiny objects showing up on the left and completely lose track of where I was in the previous thread. I know this is probably rude, but I’d like to get an ADA pass because of my ADHD. 😉Report
The renumbering of the comments drives. Me. INSANE.Report
Me three.Report
I see what you did there. Well played.Report
It actually *destroys* information. It is antithetical to all that is good about the Universe.Report
My experience with bogs is really, really limited. But I would want to ask that we not have a system like they have at Balloon Juice. I like the way that I can read a certain flow of conversations here. I am not so enamored with their system, where replies to other comments can be separated by 20 or thirty other comments. I find it a pain to always go, “Hmmm…. I wonder what comment this comment is a reply to” and linking back and forth, over and over.Report
First time I encountered a “99” here, I thought that was a reference to a specific comment. And, as it happened, comment #99 was germane and relevant.
At least until I refreshed by browser…Report
I’ll see what I can do.Report
Maybe Elias will now stop deleting my posts but I doubt it.Report
My goodness. I walked away from this place for a weekend and the powder keg erupted. Guess it’s time to write another post about how Obama is a sociopath. Does that count as intelligent conservatism?Report
Only if you specify that he’s a socialist, Marxist, Kenyan sociopath.Report
If he actually were any of those things, I wouldn’t be complaining!Report
Ryan Bonneville, cool with sociopathy. You’ve all been warned. 😉Report
probably not, actually. my money’s on him being blackmailed by the REAL sociopaths. Hell, it’s what I’d have done if I were in their shoes.Report