Game of Thrones: GRRM, Fan Fiction, and the Pearls of Irritated Oysters

Kristin Devine

Kristin has humbly retired as Ordinary Times' friendly neighborhood political whipping girl to focus on culture and gender issues. She lives in a wildlife refuge in rural Washington state with too many children and way too many animals. There's also a blog which most people would very much disapprove of https://atomicfeminist.com/

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16 Responses

  1. dhex says:

    fanfiction isn’t like breaking into someone’s house and giving them weed. that’s a bro move. a completely psycho bro move, but still.Report

  2. Oscar Gordon says:

    If fan fiction is stealing, then Hasbro and Mattel and anyone else who sells action figures is promoting that theft.

    I mean, the stories I came up with for my Star Wars action figures back in my day…Report

  3. InMD says:

    I think the concept has probably suffered a lot due to how tawdry the internet is. Even if you don’t personally have any objections to porn, I think the general assumption with something described as ‘FanFic’ is it’s porn. And unless your taste in porn is likely to be reflected in the universe you dodge it. Fair or unfair I also think there’s an unstated burden of proof people put on fan generated content. Sort of, ‘I only have so much free time, and if this is so good, how come it isn’t officially endorsed in some way?’

    As for why creators themselves can be so hard on it I think it has to do with what other countries have called ‘moral rights.’ Sort of an impossible to nail down sense of spiritual ownership and right to control the characters and story. I think on balance it’s better for them to find a way to let go, and certainly there’s no good reason to dump on people having some fun. The economics of these things are killers and given a long enough time the money-making machine will ruin everything, no matter whose name is on it.Report

  4. Jaybird says:

    Part of the problem with problems with Fanfic is that, sometimes, Fanfic becomes canon.

    There is no shortage of kids out there who draw their own comics starring Batman and The Joker who go on to work for DC and, wouldn’t you know it, start drawing comics starring Blue Beetle. (Hey, you gotta start *SOMEWHERE*.)

    (And, yes, I wrote some Superman fanfic just the other day here in comments. I was proud enough of my fanfic to share it and I have zero regrets.)

    Part of the issue is that a lot of people do stuff like read a book and then self-insert into it. When I read The Belgariad as a child, man, I daydreamed about what I’d do if I were part of that story. It was fun!

    I played with GI Joe action figures as a kid. I came up with stories! They were fun! I played with Star Wars action figures! I came up with my own stories! They were fun!

    People have characters and they have questions and they ask “who would win in a fight… The Hulk or The Thing?” and then they write the story and have The Hulk win on a technicality because The Thing had the help of Mister Fantastic and The Human Torch and The Invisible Woman but The Thing was actually also holding back because he was trying to fight for a draw and have The Hulk fall asleep so they could help Banner while The Hulk had a different set of goals entirely. So… yeah, we still don’t know who would win in a fight. Well, The Hulk. Even though The Thing technically won this one because his goals were accomplished despite being hit until he didn’t get back up.

    And if you’re not a fan of Superheroes, imagine what Emma could do if she were in Wuthering Heights. Maybe stuff could have been, you know, easier. What if Doctor Who could have hung out with Little Women? Eliza Scanlen didn’t die! She’s running around with Matt Smith!

    And, sure, there are a *LOT* of really weird fanfics out there. Here’s the fanlore collection of links to various Harry Potter fanfics. Just don’t, you know… don’t go to any of the Pairing-Centric Archives.

    I absolutely understand why “real” authors hate fanfic. The good stuff is better than their stuff, the bad stuff involves weird, weird stuff. (I was told once that the overwhelming majority of slashfic out there was not written by people who have ever been in a romantic relationship. Nor, for that matter, by someone who has ever met a human male who is the age of the people they’re writing the slashfic about.)

    So if a “real” author said that they hated fanfic, I’d absolutely understand what they were saying and why.

    And yet I still think that it’s funny that Annie Proulx has written that she hates that Brokeback Mountain fans keep sending her slashfic with happy endings for her story.Report

    • dhex in reply to Jaybird says:

      “I absolutely understand why “real” authors hate fanfic. The good stuff is better than their stuff…”

      that seems…unlikely?

      I mean I’d rather read Wide Sargasso Sea than Jane Eyre but that’s not fanfiction, but a response to a work more than a century early that recasts the central premise of JE in much different and starker terms. (Rhys is not a fan of Bronte in this case, to say the least)Report

      • Jaybird in reply to dhex says:

        Well, keep in mind, that much of Jane Eyre is setting up who Jane is, who the Reeds are, who Helen Burns is, Miss Temple, Adèle Varens, and on and on and on.

        If I wanted to write a fanfic, it’d have a story where Jane and Helen and Adèle go on a picnic and discuss love and death and what it means to be a woman in the Victorian times and how they just wish that they could vote and take birth control.

        “Some days, I feel like I’m voiceless… but I know that, someday, the whole world will hear me!”

        Or, I dunno. Make them have a sword fight or something. “It’s over Jane! I have the high ground!”

        And instead of writing a danged novel, I’m writing a 10 page story that uses well-established characters with well-established world views and coming up with a small punchy scenario that has a lot of emotional impact due to the shoulders of the giant upon which I am standing.

        It’s easy to come up with a good 20 page story about how Arya should have killed the Night King and found out, with the last flicker in his eye, that HOLY CRAP THE NIGHT KING IS BRAN.

        And all it’d take is about 5000 pages of George RR Martin laying the groundwork.

        That said… you’re right. “The good stuff is better than their stuff” dismisses a hell of a lot.

        I’d say that the fanfic authors are able to jump immediately to the big fight, the big emotional reveal, the big kissing (or better!) scene, the culmination of all that has come before!!!!! and put down an awesome 10 pages and the author can’t do that. The author has to do the heavy lifting and the fanfic writer just barges in and says “Nope, Draco kisses Harry after they *BOTH* kill Dumbledore.”

        So I’d like to rephrase. The fanfic authors have better Everclear than the real writers make… but the real writers are making wine and it has taken them years. The fanfic writers (the best ones, anyway) take a buttload of wine, distill it, distill it again, and distill it again and give you a shot that will knock you off of your feet.

        But they couldn’t have done it without a buttload of help from the author in the first place.Report

  5. To my surprise, it really exists.

    Report

  6. What bothers me is when a poor substitute replaces the real thing, e.g. when “LOTR fan” comes to mean having watched the films instead of read the books. If instead of a tragic figure who was slowly driven mad by the fear that he could not defend his people against the Shadow, you think he’s some jerk that needs to be bopped on the head, you haven’t experienced LOTR in any real way. (Also, Robb didn’t abandon his pledge because he met an incredible babe; he was maneuvered into taking the virginity of a more or less helpless girl, and felt the only decent thing was to marry her. Starks, man!)

    Note the this doesn’t come from fanfic; it comes from authorized mass-market adaptations like movies and TV.Report

  7. Swami says:

    Thanks for writing this series, Kristin. I haven’t commented on it much because I didn’t have anything to add. But I really enjoyed it, as I do everything you write.

    I actually would love to hear your broad outline of how the show should have/could have ended. My guess is a lot of people at OT would have fun chiming in…Report

    • Mike Schilling in reply to Swami says:

      Dany burning down King’s Landing is fine; it’s even foreshadowed in her father’s thwarted attempt to do just that. But it has to be motivated rather than her going nuts all at once.Report

      • James K in reply to Mike Schilling says:

        She didn’t go nuts all at once. She didn’t go nuts at all. She was perfectly sane when she decided to burn all those innocent people alive. That’s the whole point of her ark. She was angry, but she wasn’t crazy.Report

        • Mike Schilling in reply to James K says:

          Dany had just seen Missandei murdered in front of her. If she’d taken her revenge on Cersei, her advisers, and all the upper class in King’s Landing, I’d agree with you: doing away with the oppressive rulers is what she does. But she never had a reason to punish the common people.Report

  8. Swami says:

    Yeah, the Dany arc needed a better set up explaining why she tried to exterminate a city. But her ending was perhaps the most rational bit of the last season.

    The Arya arc needed to actually capitalize on her training as a faceless man, perhaps using her skills by saving Sansa and/or Jon from execution by Dany.

    Jon and that guy with the flaming sword who was resurrected multiple times needed to complete their arc by actually saving humankind from the existential threat. That means they defeat the NK, not some teenage girl who hadn’t even heard of the NK until a few weeks earlier. If Jon used a dragon in the process, it would make his heritage relevant. This could also help wrap up the Melisandre/Lord of Light thread.

    I have no idea what they should have done with Bran, but it should have been more than acting as bait and accepting the throne.

    I wonder if Martin was laughing or crying when he saw what they did to his story?Report

  9. blake says:

    I had so many questions pop-up while reading this.

    I can sorta see the HPL reference, but ERB? He was insanely wealthy in his day and probably more popular than, IDK, Stephen King. Were people writing Tarzan fanfic? And if so, I have to believe it didn’t bother him or HE WOULD HAVE WORKED IT INTO ONE OF HIS STORIES. Seriously, in a later book, Tarzan visits a tiny (as in Superman-city-in-a-bottle tiny) city which is being destroyed by THE INCOME TAX. (He was not wrong.)

    HPL’s poverty was probably more that he fussed too much and was too serious. He wanted to be Babe Ruth but he was more of a Dixie Walker. (And I am WAY out on a limb on my sports analogies.) His legacy almost certainly survives BECAUSE he encouraged “fanfic”. Recall that his style of purple prose and “weird” fiction was =seriously= out of style by WWII, to the extent that one of his early boosters dismissed the entire Cthulhu mythos out of hand in favor of his more traditional Poe-like stories.

    I struggled with the “Beauty and the Beast” reference because I was pretty sure you were talking about the ’80s version, the top three writers of which were “Ron Koslow”, “Ron Koslow” and “Ron Koslow”, but Gabaldon’s only written “Outlander” so I dug in and found GRRM had written a dozen episodes of the Linda Hamliton/Ron Perlman series.

    Which series, by the way, follows what I call “The Incredible Hulk”/”Kung Fu” formula: Peaceful protagonist is imperiled up to the 20 minute mark, when he pulls out a can of whipass, then even moreso up until the 40 minute mark, when he pulls out a second can to save the day. (BatB was different only in that Hamilton’s can of kick-ass was Perlman, not really much different than the Bixby/Ferrigno dynamic.)

    Most movies are fanfic when based on an existing source. Down to the dynamics of producers saying, “Oh, we love it, but let’s have Ilsa stay in the airport with Rick!” Even the movies that aren’t, like when Miyazaki gets a hold of story, still kind-of are because the artist is saying, “Oh, what a lovely setting and characters. Now here’s what I’m going to say with that material.” (In Miyazaki’s case, it’s going to be an anti-war statement and a complex relationship with industrialism.)

    All TV shows based on existing material are, I think. Maybe not in this new era of mini/short-run series devoted to a particular thing—I wouldn’t know, I’m way out of the loop—but traditionally, the series was too particular in its commercial demands to be otherwise. The recent “Flash” series pulled ideas from the comic books, e.g., but the old superhero series just put a guy in a costume and came up with new stuff. (Going back, famously, to the Superman radio show which evolved the character from its comic book origins into what we now know.) But even “The Flash” stopped at concepts and some imagery: Most of what the showrunners did is use those to tell the stories they wanted to tell. (And that story, apparently, was that of the Flash threatening all of existence in order to save his parents. True story: I read all the Flash I could get my hands on as a kid and I had no idea he HAD parents.)

    But I digress.

    A profitable secondary sideline for successful (and even unsuccessful writers posing as English teachers) is to “teach” writing in such a way as to eliminate the competition. I’m not even joking. Your hippie-dippie experience is only unique as to the form, not the funciton. What better way to knock someone out of the pro world than to encourage “unbridled creativity”? I can’t remember which famous 19th century author—not Hawthorne, but someone of that caliber—wrote a book on how to write which would just stymie anyone who tried to follow it.

    Some of this is sabotage, and some of it is just not really having any insight into how they do what they do, but liking to hear the sound of their own voice.

    Like guys writing ultra-long comments on blog posts.Report