Well… you see… it’s like… the thing is…
Mayo is making steady strikes with his use of expressive language. Four words he has down pat are: mommy, daddy, baby, and boy. It is no coincidence that these are the four types of people he has in his immediate family. The thing is, he has generalized these terms and attempt to fit all humans (and now, some animals) into this classification system. This is actually a brilliant example of Piaget’s theory on assimilation and accommodation. But that isn’t what this post is about. Instead, it is about the awkwardness that can sometimes result from his inaccurate usage of these terms based on their common definitions (as opposed to those he has created for himself) and the loss for words I sometimes experience when attempting to correct him.
Based on his usage patterns, here is how he seems to see the world:
Mommy – a tall person with female secondary sexual characteristics and/or traits that would generally qualify as female gender conforming
Daddy – a tall person who lacks female secondary sexual characteristics and/or traits that would generally qualify as female gender conforming
Boy – a child between the ages of approximately 2 and 10
Baby – a baby
As you can see, this classification system is woefully inadequate for describing the full compliment of diversity that makes up the human species. Teenagers often confuse him. He couldn’t decide what to call my colleague’s 13-year-old son — he of the recent growth spurt, gangly limbs, baby face, and cracking voice. Consequently, we dubbed him, “Thom… tall like daddy, face like boy, act like baby. He also gets thrown by women with short hair or men with long hair (especially if they lack any facial hair). He insisted on calling my friend’s wife a daddy because she had very short hair, a slight frame, and was wearing baggy clothing. And, of course, female children (i.e., girls) get labeled boys without a second thought.
Now, all of this makes sense from his perspective based on how he sees and understands the world. He doesn’t really need a more complex classification system at this point. But one of the ways he will devise one is labeling enough other types of people until he can no longer assimilate them into this system and instead must accommodate his categories and create new ones. To invoke just a wee bit of Piaget, eventually he’ll realize his definitions are insufficient because either too many people don’t fit or he has crammed so many different types of people into a category as to render it meaningless.
This is easy to do with, say, animals. If a child grows up with a cat in the home, she is very likely to call all four-legged furry animals a cat. So she’ll see a squirrel and say, “Cat!” and a dog and say, “Cat!” because she is really using “cat” to mean “non-human” or “animal” or, most precisely, “four-legged furry animal”. So even if you initially point out to her that the squirrel is a squirrel and the dog is a dog, she’ll look at you like you’re crazy and just insist they are all cats. Not unlike how you can explain to me what all the different things growing in your garden are and I’ll probably just call them all flowers regardless. But, eventually, her system will break down. She’ll encounter, say, a horse and think, “This really isn’t anything like all the other cats I’ve seen.” Or she’ll notice, “Those types of cats act very differently than these types of cats. Maybe that is why everyone calls them dogs.” This won’t be a conscious mechanism, mind you. But it will be the process her brain is undertaking.
Are you still with me? Okay, good. (I assume you said, “Yes!” enthusiastically and with much aplomb.) But, again, animals are easy. No one is going to get offended or even uncomfortable if a toddler calls their dog a cat… least of all the dog. People, on the other hand, can present some unique difficulties… on two levels. The first — and probably most obvious — problem that arises is when Mayo labels someone the wrong type. It was a tad bit awkward when he called my friend’s wife a daddy, in no small part because she had just gotten a haircut and was unhappy with how short it was. Many young girls who don’t know him well will get frustrated when he insists that they are a boy. He’s messing with their identity! And I always wonder about women who might dream of being a mom or are trying or struggling to be a mom or for whom the talk of being a mommy is a subject fraught with pain and how it might be feel to have an adorable little guy toddle up to you and excitedly say, “Mommy!” with a beaming smile. No one has ever registered any offense* and I’m sure 99.99% of women in this situation would recognize it for what it was and yet the potential for discomfort is still there due to the limited control we have over our emotional responses to highly sensitive topics.
But that ain’t the worst of it. Yes, the potential for awkwardness abounds but it is usually over and done with in a moment. What I find to be a far more difficult thing to deal with is if, when, and how to correct him. Because doing so A) usually requires presuming I know what someone’s gender is and B) ‘best practice’ would suggest that I offer him an explanation for the correction. So, for instance, just yesterday he looked at a child who was probably about 8-years-old and said, “Boy!” And I wasn’t sure if he was right because the child presented in such a way that it wasn’t obvious. Thankfully, this child was far away so I could say to Mayo, “Yes, that is a big kid like you but I don’t know if they are a boy or girl,” without risking offense. Then there was the time today he was looking at pictures of our pediatrician’s family as we waited in the office and he pointed to her three children and said, “Boy, boy, boy!” Now, from conversations with the doctor I know she does not have three boys; she has a boy and two girls. So I pointed and said, “Boy, girl, girl!” He had already moved on to being enamored with her baseball lamp but had I attempted to explain to him why one child was a boy and the other two were girls… how would I have done so? “Boys have short hair an girls have long hair”? Well, that is far from a universal truth. “Boys have penises and girls have vaginas”? Even if we accept the sex binary**, that isn’t particularly meaningful to him at this age and of little help at the playground (or, really, anywhere). So, yea, the list goes on of potentially awkward situations and a complete inability on my part to help him create better meaning for these terms without reinforcing all sorts of insidious ideas I don’t want him to internalize.
Now, I know what you’re probably thinking: Cool the fish out, Kazzy… he’s two! And, yes, he’s two. And him (or me!) identifying someone with the wrong gendered term isn’t the end of the world. These things hardly keep me up at night. But the reality is, how we identify people is really, REALLY important. And much of what we learn about how to identify people — beyond just the specific words we use but the fact that we so often try to identify and label and categorize people and the characteristics we tend to focus on — happens when we’re young, long before we can truly understand what gender or race or age are, both in the abstract and the specific social weights those and other key identifiers carry. It is the kind of thing, that as a parent and teacher of young children who cares deeply about these and other issues, makes you want to put your head down on the desk and say, “Can’t we just focus on finger paint?!?!” And, oh, how easy it’d be to focus on finger paint! But too many people don’t get to focus on finger paint because they are dealing with all the societal baggage that comes with our failings around identifying and categorizing humans.
Language is immensely powerful. The words we use matter. To get really math nerdy, how many people think they’ve held a square in their hands before? Because the reality is NO ONE has EVER held a square in their hands because squares, as two-dimensional objects, cannot be held. But we all think we have because we were taught the word square before we were taught the word cube or rectangular prism and now we all walk around getting laughed at by the math nerds of the world. But the only targets of offense there are inanimate objects. When dealing with people, we risk all sorts of bad outcomes — bad outcomes that have existed and continue to exist, not merely hypothetical ones — when we use language sloppily and/or abuse it. The desire to categorize seems innate. But the words we use to categorize could stand to be a whole lot better. Even if I gravitated towards gender-neutral terms… words like “grown up” and “kid” (which I do often use in my classroom setting)… I’m still left without an appropriate pronoun. So, folks, please think of the children and let’s work together on being better about this whole thing?
* One care giver one time quasi-jokingly, quasi-seriously corrected him saying, “Oh no… I’m not the mom!”
** Note: I do not.
I always find it interesting that kids who are 4 and under almost universally call my 5yo with I/DD “baby.”
Anyhow, fwiw, I always took the don’t-bother-correcting-your-kid-most-of-the-time approach on the theory that they will figure it all out eventually. My PhD advisor had done a bunch of work on how language is acquired, and I was convinced that correcting kids doesn’t speed language learning. I will correct them if they say something inappropriate, but I guess I figure mistaken gender attributions, while important, are ok coming from a small child. Worked very well with the oldest. My 3yo is hilarious on gender. He keeps checking with me to ask if I ever was a boy, or if I will eventually “grow down” (as opposed to “grow up”) to be a boy. He insists he wants to be the first man who is a queen (NOT a king, thank you).
Although my kid with I/DD, who signs “mama” for many women he sees, might have to be an exception to the figuring it out approach.Report
My youngest daughter – just turned three – continued calling any other toddler “baby” until this year, and she calls all adult males “boy”, including sometimes her grandfather.Report
Re; my kid with I/DD – he’s quite tall, and he is called baby far more often than my 3yo. I think it’s really interesting, because it suggests the “baby” concept is more reliant on behavior than size.Report
I’ve noticed this as well and it makes me think about how to describe to Mayo why we treat him and Little Marcus Allen differently.Report
Interesting point. There’s this one guy at my apartment building who is a very, very large, muscular, and hairy man, who is always swimming in the pool that my daughter insists on calling “boy”. I wonder if the fact that he’s swimming has anything to do with it?Report
Thanks, @rose-woodhouse .
But the problem I see with this approach is that we assume the kids learn it organically. And that relies on society at large teaching them it properly. And society doesn’t have the best track record when it comes to this stuff.
If a four-year-old picks up a circle and says, “Square,” you’d probably correct him. I doubt you’d admonish or shame him for it. But you’d probably say something like, “You’re right that that’s a shape but we actually call it a circle. Squares have four straight sides. This one is all round.”
I mean, how many people still think that gender is defined by hair or dress? Or roles? How many people see Hillary Clinton as somehow less of a woman because somewhere along the way they internalized a mindset of what a “woman” was that was restrictive in nature? Hell, how many people still hold steadfastly to the idea that gender is about what is between your legs?
Yes, for probably something like 95% of people in 95% of situations, this won’t ever really be an issue. But what of those 5% of people who are constantly having a key aspect of their identity questioned or mocked or denied to them because they don’t conform to the understanding developed and minimally evolved upon by a child’s brain?
I know this is a weird mix of navel-gazing and pearl clutching but it does feel like it matters.
It is sort of like the mostly-harmless-but-not-entirely-so comment about how Mayo will have his pick of the litter on the maternity unit because he was the only boy born that day. Sure, it is a tiny drop in the heteronormative bucket, but oceans are comprised of billions of tiny drops and GODDAMNIT WORLD STOP MAKING ME HAVE TO WORK THROUGH REALLY COMPLICATED SHIT I NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT BEFORE I BECAME A FATHER!
(Hmmm… that last part would have probably made for a better post…)Report
Also, it seems quasi relevant to note that Mayo has a diagnosed speech delay and, as such, may not follow typical patterns of development with regards to language acquisition. I’ve been told that more direct language instruction (without it becoming burdensome) will be helpful. Since I’ve been home with him and able to do more of this, I have seen some encouraging results.Report
Oh yes. That’s what I meant that I’d have to take a different path with kiddo with I/DD.Report
I hear you. I’ve had talks with my now 7yo about it (starting when he was maybe 5) when he was able to process bigger picture – e.g., in general, not a good idea to describe people aloud in their presence, not everyone conforms neatly to one gender or another.Report
@kazzy What I’ve been trying to wrap my head around (and feeling irritated that I have to keep reminding myself about it, instead of just getting it, despite being rather ambiguously gendered myself) is that if you look at a picture of 3 kids in the doctor’s office…. you don’t actually know what their gender is. You can make an infinitely more accurate guess than Mayo based on their gender presentation, etc., but You. Don’t. Actually. Know. So how are you supposed to explain THAT to Mayo?
I suspect I would be one of those obnoxiously correct parents that taught their kids to use gender-neutral pronouns until they had more information (“It isn’t polite to assume someone is a boy or a girl, you have to let them tell you about that stuff.”), and in doing so caused the kids no end of troubles.Report
@maribou
In general, I agree. In this case, I knew the doc’s family. I thought I said that in the OP but maybe only thought that.
Part of this post ponders the “never knowing” (with strangers at least) thing with the fact that we gender so much of our society and language.Report
@kazzy Oh, sorry, I missed that line.
I’ve never been bothered by kids who say “are you a boy or a girl?” and I usually (honestly enough) say “mostly a girl” – with older kids if it’s a safe space I’ve even blurted out “yes” because kids somehow trigger my blunt honestly buttons – but man do I get tired of people politely assuming I’m one or the other gender, then deciding they were wrong, and then tripping all over themselves to apologize, just increasing the awkwardness factor by about 100 percent. (This has happened in both directions, incidentally.)
So I was probably projecting what I wish would happen onto the situation.
But I’ve also just been thinking a lot about gender norms for kids and how much stress they sometimes have caused kids I know.Report
@kazzy Also I apologize if it seemed like I was arguing. I was actually agreeing and rambling on. When I am very sleepy I STILL don’t use words quite how I mean them to be. (Maybe I should’ve been corrected more as a child 😉 ).Report
Heh… no worries whatsoever. But your points are exactly what I was trying to get at.
Mayo thinks that tall (that is to say, taller than a kid) people with long hair and boobs and clean shaven faces are “Mommys”. For him, it really isn’t a sex/gender thing because he doesn’t have a conception of that. He has a conception of a “Mommy” that more or less fits that definition. So he might look at you and think “Mommy” or he might look at you and think “Daddy” or he might look at you and think “Boy”… all depending on your height and hair and physical makeup (I don’t know what you look like so I can’t even make a reasonable prediction). But let’s suppose he looks at you and says, “Mommy.” Now, I don’t know if you are a mommy so I might step in (as I have) and say, “I don’t know if she is a mommy. But she is a lady/woman*.” But… that doesn’t feel right. Because maybe you don’t identify as a lady or woman or anything female at all. So I could instead say, “I don’t know if that person is a mommy. But that person is a grown up.” That feels a little clumsy. Especially if the conversation continues. “Yes. That grown up does have a car. Oh, yes, and I see that grown up is walking a dog.” The lack of pronouns just feels awkward.
And you and those children you mention are exactly who I’m thinking of what I can’t accept the, “Dude… just get over it… he’s 2,” response. It is easy for me to get over it because I present as male and identify as male and have always done both.
So, yea, the intense degree to which our society is gendered (and strictly along the binary with fairly rigid definitions) is troubling and something I am seeing in a new light through experiences such as these with the little guy.
* I use them more or less alternating.Report
@kazzy I would guess that in your situation I would just start using “they” as a singular pronoun. But given that one is also trying to teach the kid singulars and plurals and what nots… oy.
As imaginarily-parental me is free to be as annoying as she wants, I feel comfortable claiming I would just teach the kid some alternate gender-neutral pronoun set right outta the gate (I’ve always been partial to ze/zir..) But I doubt I’d keep it up nearly as well as I think I would…Report
@maribou
It really is scary when you start to pull back the layers. I think about my students who are generally just on the cusp of gender differences. Until this point, they can usually discriminate between boys/girls and men/women based on the “traditional tell tale signs”, but they’ll still mix up pronoun usage or titles (e.g., many still call me Mrs. Kazzy because they don’t understand that to be a gendered term). But as they start to get a sense of gender — particularly the social viewpoints of gender — there is a shift from them defining for themselves to them having it defined for them. You start to see kids say things like, “I used to like pink but I don’t anymore because I’m a boy,” or, “I have to play house because I’m a girl.” It breaks my heart to hear that. I mean, if you are a boy who hates pink for your own reasons or a girl who loves house for your own reasons, by all means. But the moment you deny yourself an experience — or feel restricted from an opportunity — because of your gender… it feels like we royally fucked up at that point.
I make a real effort to challenge these norms… and with deeds, not just words. When they talk about hair length, I show them pics of me with shoulder length locks. I play in dramatic play AND blocks. I color with red and blue and pink and green and brown and every color. I cook. I shoot hoops. Recognizing that I might literally be the only regular adult male in their life besides their father (assuming they have a father or one who is active in their life) means I have a pretty foundational role in their perception of men, maleness, and masculinity. And my hope is that they walk away thinking, “Dude, boys can do anything!” Obviously, I also want them to think girls can do anything to, but I have to take a different tack there as I can’t actually live that out. Then again, they are going to (typically) see a wide swath of adult females in their early schooling and assuming there is some variety and diversity amongst them, they’re more likely to see that organically. So they can have the very warm and nurturing and motherly K teacher and then motherly but more brisk 1st grade teacher and the sporty 2nd grade teacher and the adventure seeking 3rd grade teacher and hopefully get that same idea: Girls can do anything!
But for adult males? Sometimes, I’m all they got. EEP!Report
My almost-two granddaughter is picking up vocabulary at a frightening rate, with some oddities showing up now and then. For a couple of weeks any sort of very small trash on the floor was “debris”; I was working on a ceiling fan and she pounced on a bit of insulation I had stripped from a wire and dropped, holding it up to me and exclaiming “Debris!” At present my wife and I are both “grandma”, which causes a certain amount of confusion.Report
@michael-cain Jay and I have gone through a phase with several of the kids in our lives where we were, both together OR in either individual case, some variant on “jayanmarann”. I think my favorite was the kid who called us “mistermarannandmissusjay” all the time for a few months. Either of us. 😀 (Jay, gentlereaders, is not a particularly feminine-presenting individual. What with the giant beard and all.)
We never corrected and they always figured it out :D.Report
We went through a period thinking about these issues when our kids were little too, and basically came up with a handful of approaches that worked pretty well for us.
First, we took care to gently point out that it is thoughtful and polite to call people what they would like to be called. That ran the gamut from terms of address (my dad likes to be called “grandpa,” my wife and I prefer our first names, etc etc.) to pronouns for people.
Second, rather than try to work it out in real time on a case by case basis while out in the world, we made a conscious effort to mix up gendered (and agender) pronouns while reading books. When very young, that had the nice benefit of expanding the range of character genders in our library, and once they were old enough to start sometimes saying “hey, why did you say ‘he,’ that’s a girl?” it provided an easy path to discussing what visual cues the author/illustrator was using to indicate gender, and how those were not always reliable. Sometimes they would have strong ideas about what pronouns they wanted us to use for the character, and we would go with the flow.
They still occasionally comment on weird gendering cues of anthropomorphized inanimate objects (long eyelashes on an M&M, for example.)Report
Love this, @emile I have one book I read at school with a notably unexpected gender pronoun (“The mummy is a she???) but I’ll have to look for other ways to challenge assumptions and norma.Report
I wish I could find a picture online, but the last page of this book shows the baby owl with its mommy and daddy.
What’s strange is that there’s no particularly gendered colors used on the parents, no clothing/accessory cues (they are cartoon owls!), and no real size dimorphism or other physical difference (like long eyelashes on one, say) between them – and yet, everyone I have shown the picture to, can clearly identify which owl is supposed to be the male/daddy, and which one is the female/mommy.
But damned if anyone can articulate *why*. They just *know*. They all pick the same answers, with no hesitation or deliberation.
So there’s definitely some really foundational cues and assumptions we tend to work off of, beyond anything really blatantly obvious.Report
Found it:
https://storyseekersuk.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/img_3974.jpgReport
That’s a fascinating one. I take it most people say the owl on the right is the dad?
Given that the book asserts that they *are* mother and father (so you’re primed to decide which is which) I read it as:
* Left owl has more saturated body color (brighter palette is gendered female)
* Plaid vs polka dots on the wings, again brighter more visual interest codes female.
I find it particularly fascinating that the body color saturation is actual ordered kid > owl on left > owl on right.Report
It actually just says “family”, but yeah, everyone picks the one on the right as “male”, with no hesitation. Looking at it again, it’s possible that the fractionally-taller horns and the slightly-larger wing are *just* enough to suggest size dimorphism, but I still thought it was weird that everyone I’ve shown the picture to has picked the same answers immediately.Report
@glyph fwiw, size dimorphism in owls even tends to run the other way, with females being larger, which I *KNOW* because, owls. And yet when I saw the picture and said “guess which one is male” i also picked the one on the right, mostly due to the patterns of cloth, I think.
I really like Cordelia Fine’s book Delusions of Gender which posits, in a reasonably well-argued way with a hugely wide-ranging and thorough (and snarky) lit review, that we aren’t hard-wired mentally for any SPECIFIC gender differences, but that we do seem hard-wired to categorize the world, and to enthusiastically accept sorting people by whatever gender categories and associated traits we are offered when still very young.
It’s interesting how everyone in this thread is quite sure they’re right even though we don’t all agree.Report
I initially thought mom was on right but now I’m not sure.
Edit: No… Def mom on right!Report
So did I. Decorated “hair” and separated eyes to make them seem larger is what jumped out at me.Report
What’s weird is that there IS one thing on the right that would tend to code “female” for a lot of Americans, and that’s the dark rings around the eyes (which might suggest eyeshadow). But that right hand owl still looks like “Dad” to me, and the left one (with no “eyeshadow”) looks like “Mom”.Report
For me, it is something in the eyes. The funny thing is that if you just presented me the owl on the left — all on its own — and asked me to guess the gender, I would peg that one as female. It is just that the one on the right seems even more female, because of something to do with the eyes I think.
Regardless, it is an interesting exercise.Report
There is a curve to the top of the left owl’s forehead/temple area that I think would push me in the direction of identifying the owl on the left as female–especially since the owl on the right has blank spaces where the temple area should be–allowing the viewer to imagine straight (masculine) lines there.
That said, I actually identified the owl on the left as the father at first–because my own gendered socialization causes me to assume the protagonist is a boy, so I then identified the owl that looks most like the (assumed male) protagonist as the male parent.Report
If I were to guess, I’d also guess the owl on the right is intended to be the father. I think the cues I used were
– the owl on the right looks like it has heavier eyebrows
– the owl on the left has a somewhat more ‘feminine’ print for its wing.Report
One of kiddo’s books (it may have silently left the house in a purge of books dad hates reading) has a cat going around a farm yard shopping for presents for his mother. Every single animal in it except the mother cat is gendered male for no particular reason.
Particularly ridiculous, the goat offers the cat some milk. Milk. Where is a billly goat getting milk from?Report
The language delay definitely adds a wrinkle. My initial thought was, “Just tell him the names of things when appropriate, and otherwise let him learn by observing,” but if there’s a delay, and it’s thought that correction will help, it becomes tricky in some cases. Maybe “boy” and “girl,” and “mommy” and “daddy” are not the best place to work with him, though, except maybe just working a lot with him on the alternative words (“man,” “woman,” or just “grownup” or whatever, with the equivalents for kids) and the actively telling him when to apply them. “Look, a grownup! Do you see the grownup?”
My son’s big one was dogs and cows: everything with 4 legs was either a dog or a cow, to the point that some dogs were cows (though no cows were dogs). I have no idea how he decided which was which. For example: horses were dogs, while lions were cows. How does that make sense?! I would just tell him the name of the animal (“That’s a lion.”) and hope it stuck. With some, he eventually learned the name, while with others he’d use compound names: “Look Daddy, a horsedog.”Report
Our collective adult hangups on race, gender, and other topics really show when it comes to what and how we teach young children. We wouldn’t let your son get to age 8 or 9 (or beyond!) without being corrected about “horsedog”. And yet we let kids grow up (sometimes through adulthood!) with all sorts of fucked up conceptions of race, gender, and other topics because we aren’t able or willing to address them. And because these topics are far more abstract, we can’t just rely on experience to guide them. As your son’s ability to discern between different species of animals developed, the obvious differences between horses and dogs and cows and lions became apparent. But that doesn’t really work for people. Primary sexual characteristics, almost entirely unseen, are of little help. Secondary sexual characteristics can be helpful but are far from perfect. So we often rely on gender norms which, for that system to work, we all have to agree to a fairly rigid set of them.
At the risk of making a mountain out of a mole hill, how many people look at trans issues today they way they do because of what they learned about gender when they were a kid?
I mean, for fuck’s sake, I’m still not sure if Spock is from Star Wars or Star Trek because I didn’t watch any of that growing up and that is enough to give some people fainting spells.Report
Oh definitely. Language tends to make us essentialists about even the most mutable of categories, and it’s definitely difficult for kids to navigate their way through complex issues like gender without a great deal of guidance, guidance that may very well do as much harm as good.Report
I wonder if I’m helping or hurting by insisting boy is a gendered term, ergo he must sort by gender (as opposed to age, which is his primary variable it seems… Largely because it is how he differentiates from Little Marcus Allen…).Report
I haven’t been hesitant at all to offer corrections plainly: “No, that’s not a dog; it’s a squirrel.” I rarely offer an explanation as to why.
For the “Mommy” thing, if the person she said it to was right in front of us, I would probably say, “Oh, you only call your own mommy ‘Mommy’. This is a person.”
To my knowledge, neither of us have given her any explanation as to how to tell which people are male and which are female, but she makes such distinctions seemingly effortlessly. Presumably she picked that up at the orphanage.Report