… but perhaps worth noting anyway. Authorities say two young men got into a fight at a community college in Texas. Unfortunately, each was carrying a gun. In their attempt to solve their own escalating dispute they eventually shot not only one another but at least one bystander as well.
Last summer I noted that this new current conservative meme – the meme that postulates that massacres would end if we armed as many people as possible – would have unintended consequences. In particular, I noted that indiscriminately arming millions of young (and presumably not yet mature) men was something that an actuary would say was trading an almost unheard of risk (very, very faulty brain wiring) for significantly more common ones (hormones, alcohol, libido, alpha-male/territorial issues, or some combination of any of these). The incident in Texas was the type of thing I was referring to with that post.
There’s a difference between the argument that everyone should have the right to bear arms, and the argument that anyone and everyone should be encouraged to be carrying deadly firearms at the ready at all times. One recognizes the importance of certain liberties; the other is a fairy tale for people who like to look at a complex world and see only black and white hats.
If there was a third CCer nearby, he bet coulda capped those two fools before they shot an innocent bystander.Report
Does anybody know if one or both of the shooters were students at the school?
None of the stories I’ve seen have said… and you’d think that that’s something worth mentioning.
I mean, if neither was a student, we’re stuck wondering why two armed people would start shooting each other on a college campus… and the explanation that makes the most sense to me is, ahem, a “business” dispute.Report
Agreed. The phrase I keep seeing is “at least one” is a student.Report
I guess the next question would be weather either of them had a CCW license.Report
Yeah. If they didn’t, they could be looking at a pretty stiff fine.
……
Too soon?Report
Na.Report
If one was a good guy and the other was a bad guy, the system worked.Report
It was dual (or duel? get it?) stand your ground. They’ll both get off scott free.Report
Then there’s this:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/19/us/north-carolina-gun-show-shooting/index.html
At least five people — three in North Carolina, one in Indiana and one in Ohio — were injured after weapons went off at gun shows Saturday, officials said, at a time when there’s been renewed discussion about private gun sales at such shows.
Are you legally liable if you negligently shoot someone at a gun show, or is there a loophole?Report
Do you really have to ask that question?Report
The better question is, does contributory negligence apply to you (& therefore negate or mitigate your claim) for showing up at a place loaded with guns (sorry, couldn’t resist the pun).Report
The son of the current NRA President is in — or just got out of — jail.
What was he in for? Shooting someone in what amounts to a road-rage incident.
People are prone to fits of stupidity, rage, and impulse. (As a personal example the last time the dishwasher overflowed there might possibly have been a regretful moment of anger that seriously hurt my foot. Stupid dishwasher).
Instantly accessible guns can turn a momentary fit of anger or impulse into a tragic, tragic act — rather than a string of obsecenities or a punch, it can turn into a shooting. For anyone.
People are impulsive. The sub-25 crowd doubly so.
If nothing else, a gun in a case in their trunk or a gun safe is a heck of a lot less likely to get yanked out during an argument than one on their hip.Report
Seems there was one shooter, there is no reports as of yet whether or not he had a concealed carry permit (he is 22, so he is old enough, I suspect he didn’t since he wasn’t using a holster, but that information may not have been released yet). He managed to shoot the guy he was arguing with, one bystander, & himself in the ass (the 4th person wasn’t hit, but was hospitalized for a medical condition).
So far as I know, he was violating campus policy by carrying in a gun free zone, he was carrying concealed without a permit (a felony), and I would bet that something in his background would prevent him from passing the CCW background check (so possibly felon in possession).
Not exactly the poster boy for rallying against shall-issue concealed carry. Although a better argument for age, background checks, & training requirements.Report
How do you shoot yourself in the butt?Report
I think you need one of these.Report
I’m trying to figure out how one would do that without one of those.
Seriously, the Daily Show needs to get a special report out on this. “How to shoot yourself in the butt in Texas” explaining the magic bullet that left the shooter’s gun, hit this ricochet, hit that one, and then ended up in the shooter’s butt. (Assuming two ricochets… maybe there were three. If there were zero and the shooter just up’n shot himself in the butt, they could get a decent segment out of that as well, I’m sure.)Report
“We know go to Rob Corddry, our Special Correspondent for shooting yourself in the butt…”Report
“That must be quite a sight. I’d like to see that!”Report
I miss Corddry. And Riggle. And Helms and Carrell and Colbert (on TDS). Daily Show has been a real incubator for comic talent, approaching SNL-levels. But the well seems to have dried up recently, IMO, though Schaal could be funny.
I HATE Jason Jones. ugh.Report
You been out to see the UCB?
(I hope Colbert gets better. Flu season is bad this year.)Report
The British one (can’t think of his name) can be hilarious.Report
Oliver. Yeah, you’re right, he’s really funny.Report
All I know for sure is that the bullet would need to go “back, and to the left…back, and to the left.”
Don’t let a bullet hit ya where the good Lord split ya.Report
I’m thinking poor trigger discipline while attempting to put the gun back in his waistband (if he was hiding it behind his back).Report
Either that or he shot himself drawing the thing.Report
I have a question for our gun experts: A gun is fired 3 or 4 times. How hot is the barrel? Is it likely that it is cool enough to place into your waistband?
Please write back soon; this is important.Report
An interesting Heat Transfer problem.
Depending on environmental conditions, & how rapidly the gun was fired & then replaced into the waistband, the barrel would just be somewhere between “Ouch! Hot! (but won’t really burn you)” & “Ohhhhhh, that’s niiiiice…”.
Barrels tend to dissipate heat quickly, and while the chemical reaction of the powder is very energetic, it is short lived, and a lot of the heat is expelled out the mouth of the barrel. Shoot a gun while holding the barrel & you’ll burn your hand, 2 seconds later, the barrel is just warm.Report
I know folks often shoot themselves in the leg when they reach for a gun that is kept in their waistband or a side holster and it discharges in the process. I could see someone doing the same thing with a gun kept in the back of their waistband.
Or, more snarkily, do you remember Plaxico Burress?Report
I’m not having a problem imagining someone shooting himself in the leg, Kaz.
Seriously, stand up. Make a gun with your fingers (do this out of view of any children). Aim at your butt.
It’s not so easy, is it?Report
What my children would do to see Mr. Kazzy make a finger gun at this own butt. And in the middle of rest time, no less!
My hunch is that being “shot in the butt” doesn’t necessarily mean a shot fired directly into the butt, perpindicular to the vertical plane of the rear. The gun was likely pointed down, discharged, and just took a chunk of tush with it.Report
From the link:
“He’s in jail after being treated at Northwest Medical Center for a gunshot wound to the buttocks.”
Do they no longer teach reporters to ask follow-up questions? We’re left wondering more things than we were before we read the article!Report
“Bill, would that be a wound in one buttock, or both of them?”Report
Or at least, Was it a through & through?Report
“Where was the bullet found? What caliber? Was there an exit wound too? Did the victim curse in a manly Texas way or hiss a prayer between his teeth or cry like a little girl? Pardon? Yes, these questions are vitally important for our readers to determine the best response to this story.”Report
+1Report
Thank you, thank you, I’ll be here all week. Try the veal.Report
Never combine smart bullets, a suspicious ass and a itchy trigger finger.Report
RoE:
1. Always treat a gun as if it where loaded and about to fire.
2. Store guns in a open breech fashion.
3. Don’t shoot angry.Report
If a gun is tucked in at the backside of someone’s pants, and that person grabs the gun and accidentally pulls the trigger, I can imagine a butt-cheek being shot.Report
While I agree, I can also see that being the first, last, and only shot in the altercation. Under that theory, the gunman would have had to grab the gun, shoot himself in the butt and then go on to shoot his intended victim and the innocent bystander.
Perhaps he shot himself in the butt when he was “holstering”.Report
Might have. Or might have when he drew. If you’re angry enough, you ignore the little pains, and if it was (as seems quite likely) a “you’re a moron with it tucked into your pants” thing, then the angle was likely quite shallow. I’m sure it hurt quite a bit when he calmed down.
At least he didn’t tuck it into the FRONT of his pants.
That would have been more…dire.
(As to pain and rage: One of the local self-defense places has repeatedly told women not to rely on a kick to the nuts to disable an attacker. Cops who had experience with violent offenders agreed, stating a mad enough person wouldn’t be disabled by it and would still be trying to, well, do whatever he was planning. Of course, their suggestion is to break someone’s knee if you’re desperate, because all the anger in the world doesn’t make the machinery work when it’s shattered).Report
I’ve read reports of guys who discharge a firearm while carrying in the front of the pants, I really can not help but laugh at them.
Agreed on the kick to the nuts, adrenaline is amazing stuff. Also, if you can’t break a knee, dislocate it by hitting it from the side.Report
How the hell is breaking a knee supposed to be the go-to self-defense technique for anyone, man or woman?
Take a look at the demo videos for it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lLqRUyleW0.
It basically requires the assailant to be standing their like a chump with their leg straight, waiting for the blow. Same with dislocating from the side. If your knee is bent at all, your leg will simply turn with the blow. Unless you practice muay thai and kick like a mule, it is not particularly practical.
I mean, sure, it is nice if you can shatter the knee and incapacitate an attacker. It is also nice if you can knock them out with a single mighty punch. This doesn’t make either one particularly likely.
Back to the main topic: I am waiting for the day, which given the frequency of shootings I am certain will soon be upon us, when a hero with his CCW heroically intervenes in a shooting…and is mowed down by the armed response unit unable to distinguish him from the perpetrator.Report
Kicking knees is guaranteed to hurt… (so is hurting the groin, though… — it tends to be more expected, so…)
Classic self defense — keys to the eyes. Lack the keys? Use your fingers.Report
it’s suprisingly easy to smack someone in the knee hard enough to do damage, especially if they’ve grabbed you. Guys instinctively protect their groin, everyone has instincts to protect their eyes and face, but not so much knees.
The class in question did, IIRC, spend a lot of time running. They had lots and lots of self-defense moves for a variety of things, but in general they stressed crippling your attacker if possible and then running. (The idea being they wanted you to be able to outrun anyone, and just in case, handicap them).
They did focus on the four critical areas — eyes, throat, groin, knees — because those are the areas where a good blow stands the best chance of discouraging, incapacitating, or massively hurting an attacker.
I recall the knees most vividly because a number of their grab responses contained some basic akido-style leverage (ie: generally you go for the eyes and groin and foot merely to get them to loosen the hold a bit, and then twist out which generally leaves you somewhat off to the side) at the end.
And their general view was “Well, if you’re right there beside them and you still have a hold on them and the knee is right there and you have a perfect side-on position to really kick the sucker, you should”.
They were very much “go for everything sensitive” but stressed taking out a knee if you had a good shot because if nothing else they were gonna be limping and it made them easier to outrun.Report
“How do you shoot yourself in the butt?”
The way it usually happens is you carry it Bad-Ass-TV-Cop-style tucked in your jeans, in the small of your back, under your with the safety off, and then accidentally discharge it attempting to pull it out.Report
and then accidentally discharge it attempting to pull it out.
Which is why we had to get married.Report
Maybe it was taking carry-and-conceal to a higher – er, I mean lower – level.Report
But since gun enthusiasts disapprove of gun-free zones and want shall-issue CCW, and at this point it’s only a suspicion that the shooter would have failed the background check, it’s an argument against the full agenda.Report
I think even Wayne LaPierre and Ted Nugent would agree that the human butt should be a gun-free zone.
Well, maybe not Nugent.Report
Well, gun free zones are just wishful thinking & thus silly. Like putting a sign on your daughters door that it’s a pregnancy free zone, instead of making sure she is educated & has access to the pill.
I think if the CCW age was 18, the background check would fail to catch a lot of violent, or self-control impaired people, and there would be a problem with more words leading to gun fights. By age 21, however, I think most people have either calmed down & gained a bit of rationality, or they haven’t & they’ve had at least one violent incident on their record.
Of course, if Tod’s industry is to be believed, maybe the age should be 25, not 21, since that is when my car insurance rates took a nose dive. But if that is the case, then the minimum age for a cop should be 25 as well.Report
This was in reply to Mike here.Report
If you go by car insurance, women should be eligible for CCW five-to-ten years before men.Report
They probably should…Report
I don’t think you have fully worked through the implications of a world where 14 year old girls have access to firearms.Report
I think that you may have a point. Though, would 14 year old boys be better?Report
I assumed the idea was so laughably, obviously foolish that we need not even discuss it.Report
I would agree. So if X is the age that girls should have access to firearms, and Y is the age that boys should, Y>X>14.Report
I was thinking more like girls at 18, boys at 40.Report
Extend that to the military and police as well and you can count on my support.Report
If you don’t trust the police to have guns, there’s always Somalia.Report
The US government officially recognized a government in Somalia the other day.
We’re going to have to pick a new country.Report
Detroit.Report
You mean that won’t work? Now what am I going to do?!
Maybe I can do both?Report
Well, the sign is always an option, but the pill is a good second layer of defense.Report
A better sign would be something like, “I own a shotgun, a shovel, and 40 acres of woods behind the house. Any questions?”Report
Edit:“I own a shotgun, a shovel, 40 acres of woods behind the house, & I doubt anyone would miss you all that much. Any questions?”Report
And maybe someone has data to refute this, but to date, despite nearly every state having some form of legalized concealed carry, and most being shall issue, there have not been a growing rash of permit holders gunning others down in fits of anger or rage.
Keep in mind, had this story happened on the street away from a mall or school, it would be a blurb on the local news, not a story that makes headlines nationally.Report
This seems self-refuting to me.
1. We don’t hear about a lot of concealed-carry-related dumb shootings.
2, In fact, under most circumstances we wouldn’t even have heard about this one.Report
Actually, if the shooter has a permit, it tends to make it further up the news food chain.
These kinds of statistics are often easy to find. Most states put out numbers regarding the number of permits issued and the number revoked.
So stories like this, or this, or this.Report
Gun-free zones will work best if:
1) Everyone entering them goes through a metal detector.
2) They are staffed with armed well-trained security guards.
In other words, like a courthouse.Report
ExactlyReport