Too late for the gun symposium…

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Tod Kelly

Tod is a writer from the Pacific Northwest. He is also serves as Executive Producer and host of both the 7 Deadly Sins Show at Portland's historic Mission Theatre and 7DS: Pants On Fire! at the White Eagle Hotel & Saloon. He is  a regular inactive for Marie Claire International and the Daily Beast, and is currently writing a book on the sudden rise of exorcisms in the United States. Follow him on Twitter.

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72 Responses

  1. Avatar Stillwater says:

    If there was a third CCer nearby, he bet coulda capped those two fools before they shot an innocent bystander.Report

  2. Avatar Jaybird says:

    Does anybody know if one or both of the shooters were students at the school?

    None of the stories I’ve seen have said… and you’d think that that’s something worth mentioning.

    I mean, if neither was a student, we’re stuck wondering why two armed people would start shooting each other on a college campus… and the explanation that makes the most sense to me is, ahem, a “business” dispute.Report

  3. Avatar Mike Schilling says:

    If one was a good guy and the other was a bad guy, the system worked.Report

  4. Avatar Mike Schilling says:

    Then there’s this:

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/19/us/north-carolina-gun-show-shooting/index.html


    At least five people — three in North Carolina, one in Indiana and one in Ohio — were injured after weapons went off at gun shows Saturday, officials said, at a time when there’s been renewed discussion about private gun sales at such shows.

    Are you legally liable if you negligently shoot someone at a gun show, or is there a loophole?Report

  5. Avatar Morat20 says:

    The son of the current NRA President is in — or just got out of — jail.

    What was he in for? Shooting someone in what amounts to a road-rage incident.

    People are prone to fits of stupidity, rage, and impulse. (As a personal example the last time the dishwasher overflowed there might possibly have been a regretful moment of anger that seriously hurt my foot. Stupid dishwasher).

    Instantly accessible guns can turn a momentary fit of anger or impulse into a tragic, tragic act — rather than a string of obsecenities or a punch, it can turn into a shooting. For anyone.

    People are impulsive. The sub-25 crowd doubly so.

    If nothing else, a gun in a case in their trunk or a gun safe is a heck of a lot less likely to get yanked out during an argument than one on their hip.Report

  6. Avatar Mad Rocket Scientist says:

    Seems there was one shooter, there is no reports as of yet whether or not he had a concealed carry permit (he is 22, so he is old enough, I suspect he didn’t since he wasn’t using a holster, but that information may not have been released yet). He managed to shoot the guy he was arguing with, one bystander, & himself in the ass (the 4th person wasn’t hit, but was hospitalized for a medical condition).

    So far as I know, he was violating campus policy by carrying in a gun free zone, he was carrying concealed without a permit (a felony), and I would bet that something in his background would prevent him from passing the CCW background check (so possibly felon in possession).

    Not exactly the poster boy for rallying against shall-issue concealed carry. Although a better argument for age, background checks, & training requirements.Report

    • How do you shoot yourself in the butt?Report

      • Avatar Glyph in reply to Jaybird says:

        I think you need one of these.Report

      • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

        I know folks often shoot themselves in the leg when they reach for a gun that is kept in their waistband or a side holster and it discharges in the process. I could see someone doing the same thing with a gun kept in the back of their waistband.

        Or, more snarkily, do you remember Plaxico Burress?Report

        • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Kazzy says:

          I’m not having a problem imagining someone shooting himself in the leg, Kaz.

          Seriously, stand up. Make a gun with your fingers (do this out of view of any children). Aim at your butt.

          It’s not so easy, is it?Report

          • Avatar Kazzy in reply to Jaybird says:

            What my children would do to see Mr. Kazzy make a finger gun at this own butt. And in the middle of rest time, no less!

            My hunch is that being “shot in the butt” doesn’t necessarily mean a shot fired directly into the butt, perpindicular to the vertical plane of the rear. The gun was likely pointed down, discharged, and just took a chunk of tush with it.Report

          • Avatar Alexios in reply to Jaybird says:

            If a gun is tucked in at the backside of someone’s pants, and that person grabs the gun and accidentally pulls the trigger, I can imagine a butt-cheek being shot.Report

            • Avatar Jaybird in reply to Alexios says:

              While I agree, I can also see that being the first, last, and only shot in the altercation. Under that theory, the gunman would have had to grab the gun, shoot himself in the butt and then go on to shoot his intended victim and the innocent bystander.

              Perhaps he shot himself in the butt when he was “holstering”.Report

              • Avatar Morat20 in reply to Jaybird says:

                Might have. Or might have when he drew. If you’re angry enough, you ignore the little pains, and if it was (as seems quite likely) a “you’re a moron with it tucked into your pants” thing, then the angle was likely quite shallow. I’m sure it hurt quite a bit when he calmed down.

                At least he didn’t tuck it into the FRONT of his pants.

                That would have been more…dire.

                (As to pain and rage: One of the local self-defense places has repeatedly told women not to rely on a kick to the nuts to disable an attacker. Cops who had experience with violent offenders agreed, stating a mad enough person wouldn’t be disabled by it and would still be trying to, well, do whatever he was planning. Of course, their suggestion is to break someone’s knee if you’re desperate, because all the anger in the world doesn’t make the machinery work when it’s shattered).Report

              • Avatar Mad Rocket Scientist in reply to Morat20 says:

                I’ve read reports of guys who discharge a firearm while carrying in the front of the pants, I really can not help but laugh at them.

                Agreed on the kick to the nuts, adrenaline is amazing stuff. Also, if you can’t break a knee, dislocate it by hitting it from the side.Report

              • Avatar Mopey Duns in reply to Mad Rocket Scientist says:

                How the hell is breaking a knee supposed to be the go-to self-defense technique for anyone, man or woman?

                Take a look at the demo videos for it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lLqRUyleW0.

                It basically requires the assailant to be standing their like a chump with their leg straight, waiting for the blow. Same with dislocating from the side. If your knee is bent at all, your leg will simply turn with the blow. Unless you practice muay thai and kick like a mule, it is not particularly practical.

                I mean, sure, it is nice if you can shatter the knee and incapacitate an attacker. It is also nice if you can knock them out with a single mighty punch. This doesn’t make either one particularly likely.

                Back to the main topic: I am waiting for the day, which given the frequency of shootings I am certain will soon be upon us, when a hero with his CCW heroically intervenes in a shooting…and is mowed down by the armed response unit unable to distinguish him from the perpetrator.Report

              • Avatar Kim in reply to Mopey Duns says:

                Kicking knees is guaranteed to hurt… (so is hurting the groin, though… — it tends to be more expected, so…)

                Classic self defense — keys to the eyes. Lack the keys? Use your fingers.Report

              • Avatar Morat20 in reply to Mopey Duns says:

                it’s suprisingly easy to smack someone in the knee hard enough to do damage, especially if they’ve grabbed you. Guys instinctively protect their groin, everyone has instincts to protect their eyes and face, but not so much knees.

                The class in question did, IIRC, spend a lot of time running. They had lots and lots of self-defense moves for a variety of things, but in general they stressed crippling your attacker if possible and then running. (The idea being they wanted you to be able to outrun anyone, and just in case, handicap them).

                They did focus on the four critical areas — eyes, throat, groin, knees — because those are the areas where a good blow stands the best chance of discouraging, incapacitating, or massively hurting an attacker.

                I recall the knees most vividly because a number of their grab responses contained some basic akido-style leverage (ie: generally you go for the eyes and groin and foot merely to get them to loosen the hold a bit, and then twist out which generally leaves you somewhat off to the side) at the end.

                And their general view was “Well, if you’re right there beside them and you still have a hold on them and the knee is right there and you have a perfect side-on position to really kick the sucker, you should”.

                They were very much “go for everything sensitive” but stressed taking out a knee if you had a good shot because if nothing else they were gonna be limping and it made them easier to outrun.Report

      • Avatar Tod Kelly in reply to Jaybird says:

        “How do you shoot yourself in the butt?”

        The way it usually happens is you carry it Bad-Ass-TV-Cop-style tucked in your jeans, in the small of your back, under your with the safety off, and then accidentally discharge it attempting to pull it out.Report

      • Avatar DRS in reply to Jaybird says:

        Maybe it was taking carry-and-conceal to a higher – er, I mean lower – level.Report

    • Avatar Mike Schilling in reply to Mad Rocket Scientist says:

      But since gun enthusiasts disapprove of gun-free zones and want shall-issue CCW, and at this point it’s only a suspicion that the shooter would have failed the background check, it’s an argument against the full agenda.Report

  7. Avatar Mad Rocket Scientist says:

    Well, gun free zones are just wishful thinking & thus silly. Like putting a sign on your daughters door that it’s a pregnancy free zone, instead of making sure she is educated & has access to the pill.

    I think if the CCW age was 18, the background check would fail to catch a lot of violent, or self-control impaired people, and there would be a problem with more words leading to gun fights. By age 21, however, I think most people have either calmed down & gained a bit of rationality, or they haven’t & they’ve had at least one violent incident on their record.

    Of course, if Tod’s industry is to be believed, maybe the age should be 25, not 21, since that is when my car insurance rates took a nose dive. But if that is the case, then the minimum age for a cop should be 25 as well.Report

  8. Avatar Randy Harris says:

    Gun-free zones will work best if:

    1) Everyone entering them goes through a metal detector.
    2) They are staffed with armed well-trained security guards.

    In other words, like a courthouse.Report

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