Tunisia and Iraq

37 thoughts on “Tunisia and Iraq”

1. Well, that was the neo-con argument from the first, that all men yearn to breathe free. Topple the dictators, the people will fill in the blanks. In the immediate aftermath, which went poorly, it seemed to be a manifestly risible proposition.

   Whether Tunisia has anything to do with toppling Saddam, I do not know whether we can say right now. [That it got Khadafi in line, bigtime and in a hurry, is a live proposition. Shed his WMDs, not as of yet on the end of the hangman’s rope. Worked out for all and sundry.]

   Cuba, after the Castros are gone, might be probative.

   I prefer to take the long view, per Chou-en-lai’s [apocryphal] response to whether the French Revolution was a good thing:

   “It’s too soon to tell.”Report

   1. Whether Tunisia has anything to do with toppling Saddam, I do not know whether we can say right now.

      I think it was the Giants winning the World Series, myself. There’s precisely as much evidence for one as the other.Report

      1. Ever since they re-retired Vida Blue I’ve been of the rock-solid conviction that if the Giants ever won the World Series, it would be the First Sign of the Apocalypse.

         The circumstances of their last two losses in the World Series only served to exacerbate that belief.Report

         1. 1962 was pretty damned damned too.Report

   2. Given that Iraq is still plagued with widespread violence and a generally unpopular, though “democratically elected” and, to date at least, largely ineffective government, it’s surprising that more Arab states haven’t seen how wonderful democracy-by-force has worked out for Iraq and decided to try it themselves. I mean, we can all see that Libya wouldn’t be the democracy it is today if it hadn’t been for the size of George W. Bush’s testicles (one wonders what Tom knows about what was going on in Libya prior to the invasion of Iraq).

      Personally, I can’t decide which was the bigger influence in the decision of the people of Tunisia to effectively overthrow their government: the 8 years of horrific violence and foreign military occupation that “democracy” has given Iraq, or the fact that people in Tunisia were spending 60, 70, even 80% of their income on food, as food prices continued to rise while a corrupt government did little more than sit back and watch. It could be either one.Report

      1. Sorry Chris, I just can’t read your silliness and ignorance regarding Iraq and Tunisia, and not think of the inestimable, Baghdad Bob. I have to do some research–you must have lifted this from Chomsky or Navajo Chief Ward Churchill. Any chance you’re hiding former Iraqi Baath party members in your basement? You really should have been Saddam’s Propaganda Minister–you would have succeeded masterfully at pulling the wool over the world’s eyes. And to denounce and ridicule the attempts of this country and our allies, to give Iraqis a chance to live in peace and freedom is simply shameful. You are one heartless dude. So what did you most enjoy? The mass graves? Throwing people into packs of vicious dogs? The rape rooms? Feeding people, feet first into shredders? Mengele type medical care? You remember that, don’t you? I’ve seen the videos–cutting out tongues, cutting of fingers, ears, toes. Raping children in front of their parents? How about the use of chemical weapons in Halabja that killed 5,000 unarmed men, women, and children and severely injured thousands more. You leftists just repulse me.Report

         1. Awww… Heidi, and just the other day you were telling me that people on the right never said that if you disagreed with their position on the war you were a traitor and/or in league with the enemy.Report

            1. Chris, it’s only fair to tell you that this “Heidegger” character is a seriously mentally ill fellow, suffering from both a chronic bipolar disorder as well a longtime/chronic multiple personality disorder. From one moment to the next, he absolutely has no idea who he really is. For some, inexplicable reason he’s “Heidegger” on this blog, but he can, without warning, become Beethoven, Fred Flintstone, Schopenhauer, Hegel, Spanky, Carl Sagan, Freddy the Freeloader, Hitler, it goes on and on. Personally, if I should ever run into this psychopath, I’ll kill on the spot, no questions asked. He needs to be put out of both his misery and ours.
               Sincerely, Pol PotReport

               1. You know who else became Hitler?Report

                  1. Moe Howard?Report

                  2. Bite your tongue.Report

                  3. Ow!Report

                  4. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-opehtzq7Es

                     Jaybird,
                     Another Stooge fan?? Love it!!!Report

                  5. ITYM Charlie ChaplinReport

         2. > And to denounce and ridicule the attempts of this
            > country and our allies, to give Iraqis a chance to
            > live in peace and freedom is simply shameful.

            Jus ad bellum. We didn’t even come close to qualifying.

            So yes, I’ll both denounce and ridicule the attempts of this country to… wait… living in peace and freedom was the original goal? That’s not how I remember the rhetoric, dude.Report

   3. By the way, it’s far more plausible that right-wing hate talk will cause political violence than that the debacle in Iraq caused the uprising in Tunisia.Report

      1. Oh no you didn’t!Report

2. “If the “Jasmine Revolution” inspires emulation in Egypt and Saudi Arabia, it will have something to do with the fact that Tunisia’s political upheaval was a genuinely organic, popular movement that isn’t perceived as the result of outside meddling.”

   It makes sense that a yearning for democracy must be part of the zeitgeist in order to take hold. Of course, we and the other democracies could always provide assistance.Report

   1. A very light touch is needed. The helping hand of the US is not going to be viewed very favorably by the masses in the Middle East.Report

      1. Yeah, we misplayed that card big time.Report

3. Whether Tunisia has anything to do with toppling Saddam, I do not know whether we can say right now. [That it got Khadafi in line, bigtime and in a hurry, is a live proposition. Shed his WMDs, not as of yet on the end of the hangman’s rope. Worked out for all and sundry.]

   I had lunch the other day with someone who has friends working in Lybia and was telling me that there are anti-government protests there that aren’t getting reported.Report

4. But if Tunisians democratically elect a theocratic Muslim government, will the neocons admit that they were wrong?

   More likely, they’ll deny and keep cheering.Report

   1. They’re not *THAT* theocratic! Women can show their faces and hands!Report

   2. Even more likely, they’ll plan to party like it’s 1953.Report

   3. True, Jason, that’s the fly in the ointment, particularly Fukuyma’s “End of History,” that man yearns to live in a secular neo-liberal democracy.

      However, the choices aren’t as stark as Western secular democracy on one hand and Muslim theocracy on the other. It’s perfectly reasonable that a majority Muslim country would reject secularism and indeed westernism, and still come up with something like Malaysia, that suits their Islamic ethos.

      And something like Malaysia catching on the the Muslim world [incl Iraq] might work just fine. Not quite the Western mind’s cup of tea, but close enough for rock’n’roll.Report

5. I think the jury’s still out on whether the Jasmine Revolution is going to spur actual reforms in Tunisia, much less on the surrounding countries. That said, I’ll ask my sister if she’s heard any rumblings in Rabat (Morocco).Report

   1. I’m going to be in Tunis in June (unless things are still unsettled enough to cause a change in vacation plans.) It should be fascinating.Report

      1. I smell a guest post! Would you like to be the League’s first official foreign correspondent for the duration of your trip, Mike?Report

         1. (ahem, we have Canadian posters.)Report

            1. Ooof. Overseas correspondent is what I meant. My apologies to our Canadian contingent.Report

               1. In fairness, I never did file a report from France. I really didn’t imagine that anyone would want to hear about l’affaire Bettancourt (probably you don’t want to hear about it now either) or the big news items about the Wikileaks cables containing evidence that the American diplomats find Sarkozy to be somewhat ridiculous (I’d be more worried if they didn’t).Report

                  1. Does anyone not find Sarkozy ridiculous?Report

                  2. Matty, not that I know of. The French find him ridiculous, but seem to think it’s scandalous that the rest of the world has noticed that he’s a little ridiculous. I think they tend to overstate how much the rest of the world cares. When I was there last there was talk about how Carla Bruni’s wild life has humiliated France in the eyes of the world, and I wanted to say, “Wait- you think the world cares about the private life of your first lady? That is so cute!”Report

                  3. You mean the rest of the world doesn’t crave gossip about gorgeous celebrities?Report

               2. No worries Will. Canadians are used to the special semi-nonforeign status they enjoy in the minds of Americans.Report

                  1. My American flag has 60 stars.

                     (No, not 63. Nunavut, NT and the Yukon can go suck it with Guam and Puerto Rico. Dirty foreigners.)Report

         2. I will try to remember to take notes. Oh, and interview a cabdriver, just like Tom Friedman.Report

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