Defining Moments
“Can you play chess without the Queen?” – Ludwig Wittgenstein
Moving from one blog to another and thus one audience to another, a writer will invariably experience a certain amount of deja vu. Clearly, for example, Mr. Rowe has had the discussions his posts have started generating here numerous times before (alas, in some cases, repeatedly with the same readers). I understand and agree with his efforts to keep those who claim the U.S. was founded as a Christian nation from, to put it mildly, overstating their case. There are political agendas at play here, and because I oppose much of the “Christian Nation” political agendas, I think Mr. Rowe is doing important work.
But arguing over definitions, however politically important the underlying motives may be, is akin to windmill tilting and jello nailing. Technical vocabularies aside, words in our ordinary or natural languages simply do not have the sort of essential meanings which, if only we could discern them, we could once and for all know with confidence whether the word was being applied properly or not. Having discovered the ‘true essential definition’ of ‘Christian,’ for example, we could dispositively conclude whether Washington or Obama or you or I were Christians – who knows? You might be one without even knowing it or vice versa – we’d finally know whether Mormons were Christians and perhaps even whether it was the Western or Eastern Church that maintained ‘the true faith” during the Great Schism. That would be peachy, wouldn’t it? But alas, in the words of that great theologian, Paul of Simon, God only knows, God makes His plans, the information’s unavailable to the mortal man.
Much of the intellectual history of the West got off on the wrong foot when Socrates (or Plato using Socrates as his philosophical sock puppet) insisted that words and their underlying concepts do have essential meanings. (See, e.g., the discussion of virtue in the Meno.) We are forever indebted to classical Greece for much of our intellectual heritage, but as parents are wont to do, they left us with some unfortunate intellectual baggage, too. Again excluding technical terms stipulatively defined, the meanings or correct uses of words simply don’t have sharp borders. At least none of the really interesting words like beauty, justice, God, etc. The question whether a word is being correctly used in a doubtful or unfamiliar case ultimately depends not on any further discovery or finding of facts but on a decision resulting from a weighing of the facts already known. And, as such, because reasonable people can reasonably disagree about such decisions, what we mean by one side in such a dispute being right or wrong (two more of those philosophically interesting words, by the way) is thus less about truth or falsehood (two more!) than about, for lack of a better term, appropriateness.
Which perhaps seems like a pretty trivial point. Until you consider how much blood has been shed by those who have failed to grasp it.
I think you ultimately may be right about meaning of words. But, as you know, a lot of folks out there — indeed, especially of the “Christian America” crowd, but also their critics who happen to be religious believers — believe words to have more precise meanings. As in “Christians believe in a Triune God.” And therefore, “Mormons are not Christians.” They can dicker over whether Rome, Byzantium, Luther-Calvin, or Henry VIII got it right. They can also come together and assert whatever “Christianity” means, it means at least this, but not that.
I think the FFs did push a more generic, less defined meaning of terms like “religion” and “Christianity,” precisely because of the shed blood to which you refer. Yet, it’s the Christian Americanists — at least the churches where David Barton popularly gives his lectures — who proceed with the ‘true essential definition’ of ‘Christian,’… You can look it up in their creeds and confessions.Report
Very nice, DAR. Terms are only useful when there is good faith agreement on their meaning. They’re like currency, which has no intrinsic value, but makes the marketplace a helluva lot easier to negotiate. [A bottle of wine for half a shoe? 3/4 of a shoe?]
Quite right about “justice” in particular. One can run that one all the way down the road to “social justice” to the recent and very unfortunate Happy Meal “food justice.”Report
We went through a sort of Socrates phase here and something that might have come up then (I can’t really remember) was an idea some people argue that, in spite of the fact that Socrates gripes about writing so often, it’s still a somewhat new technology and the Forms reflect that strangeness- words as well being physical forms like you’re reading here. So the idea of words as corresponding to essential things might be important to him because they now existed in actual phonetic lettered form. A written word really is something strange when you think about it. If you read English, you can’t look at any of these words without them existing in your mind.
Not sure where I’m going with that, but you’re right that he really does overstate it quite a bit.Report
“Until you consider how much blood has been shed by those who have failed to grasp it.”
Not being snarky — what are you talking about here?Report
Those who have been willing both to kill and to die because they “knew the truth” their opponents failed to accept or acknowledge.Report
Sorry. I was tired and asked too broad a question. I meant: which wars/events are you characterizing this way? I’m not going to argue the cases; I’m just curious.Report
Since Washington and the FFs were kind of a jumping off point for these threads, it seems that most of the 1600s and 1700s London is a pretty good example. In fact, it is widely held that the constant violence between Catholics and Protestants during this time was a prime motivator for the FFs ultimately choosing to not allow a State sponsored religion.
But I think you can look at almost anytime in history and find examples. I know that for political reasons the US government always talked about the Bosnian conflicts as a territorial issue, but in fact the conflict (which is a thousand years old) is really one of who is a real Christian and who is a heretic. And the Bush years were full of discussions on how to deal with similar (and similarly deadly) disagreements by groups who differed on what was real Islam in Iraq.Report
Oh, surely not all wars, etc. Most, after all, are for power and wealth and such however much we may drape them in the clothing of ideological or religious disputes. Moreover, I’d be loathe to suggest there is such a thing as pure motives in such matters. Pure in the sense of singular, that is. But the military expansion of Islam, the Crusades, European wars at least in part driven by the conflict of Protestantism and Roman Catholicism, etc. are pretty good examples of the religious variety while, say, Pol Pot springs to mind on the ideological side.Report
DAR: “Those who have been willing both to kill and to die because they “knew the truth” their opponents failed to accept or acknowledge.”
Has it ever been any other way in the last 100,000 years? And has every instance necessarily meant that one side did not, in fact, “know the truth”? “Appropriateness” just doesn’t logically follow the flow of your dialogue–a very harshly odd man out use of a word. Why do philosophers take such perverse delight in murdering the innate human longing for God as eternally manifested in Nature? Music? The celestial dance of the heavens?
“There was a time when meadow, grove, and stream,
The earth, and every common sight
To me did seem
Apparelled in celestial light,
The glory and the freshness of a dream”
The clouds that gather round the setting sun
Do take a sober colouring from an eye
That hath kept watch o’er man’s mortality;
Another race hath been, and other palms are won.
“Thanks to the human heart by which we live,
Thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears,
To me the meanest flower that blows can give
Thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears.”
WordsworthReport
The tone of world-weary authority this post takes in dismissing:
– the usefulness of definitions
– the importance of definitions
– the ability of words to have concrete meaning
– oh, and Plato (and, presumably, a great deal of pre-Wittgenstein or at least pre-Nietzsche thought)
is pretty laughable…Report
Well, Max, you owe us a definition of “concrete meaning”.Report
I couldn’t agree more (with Ridgely).
Perhaps I’m just in the middle of a tired phase, restless from rehashing old arguments and the manipulation of language I and nearly everyone does at some point or another to rationalize/prove/support our propositions about the world.
For instance, with regard to the “Christian nation” question. Hell if I’m gona argue for hours to no avail that we are not a such a nation, or that no such nation ever has existed, only to be rebutted by the opposition that I “mis-characterized” the phrase, definition, etc.
I’d love to enter into discussions with people’s definitions stated clearly ahead of time. Go ahead, set the ground rules for what all the terms and phrases mean and refer to. Then for once someone might build a helpful or at least an interesting artifice upon some stable ground.Report
I think I find myself simultaneously agreeing and disagreeing with our post, DA. I think the ultimate point (i.e.: “Which perhaps seems like a pretty trivial point. Until you consider how much blood has been shed by those who have failed to grasp it.”) is obviously true, and worth both pointing out and discussing.
But there is something so post-modern and arbitrary about assuming that it is the fault of those darn conceptual words, and not an innate potential evil to human nature that can arise if unchecked, that seems like just an intellectual wordsmithing exercise – like we all used to have in our Freshman years over espresso right after our philosophy class.Report
Gawd forbid you encounter intellectual wordsmithing on a blog like this!
Seriously, though, sure, the notion that merely flawed and naive understandings of the relationship between language and the world are primarily, let alone solely responsible for man’s inhumanity to man (to coin a phrase) is, per Max above, pretty laughable. To note that it might facilitate or aggravate our native inclination toward intolerance, on the other hand, strikes me as something well worth discussing with or without the espresso.Report
Oh, screw that “essential Definition” crap. When I’m talking to someone, I want to know how he defines the terms he uses simply because we’re not really communicating until then. When you think you know what the other guy means (and vice versa), but you really don’t, that can escalate quickly. I mean, it can really get out of hand fast.Report
Most wars occur between people who speak different languages.
I would think they understand each other too well, beyond language, and that’s what the fight’s about.Report
Meaning is fluid and overflows.Report
Meaning is also a hulking machine of metal and a means of conveyance.Report