Debate: My Opening Argument
Before this debate began I introduced a quotation from the Emperor Theodosius I, who reigned at the end of a long and telling struggle between the two major Christian factions of the time: those who ascribed to the Trinity as three co-equal components of the deity which had been worshiped and apparently misunderstood by the Jews for a couple of thousand years, and those who ascribed to the concept of the Father as the superior and – as our friend Joe Carter might put it – non-dependent element of a somewhat different Trinity in which the Son is subordinate to the Father. The latter doctrine, represented by the Presbyter Arius, held sway over a sufficiently influential portion of the Roman Empire to have been adopted by Constantius II and others and thus flourish for a time as the most useful theology to which to ascribe in public, but the circumstances were such that the former doctrine, represented by Athanasius, won the approval of a far greater number of bishops and eventually that of our Theodosius, who did more than anyone else in history to perpetuate modern Christianity by ushering in an age in which those failed to ascribe to its doctrines would exist only to the extent that a series of Christian states allowed them to. It is a fine thing, then, that Theodosius chose to defend by arms the one religious doctrine that is truly and plainly valid; otherwise, we might look back upon the intervening history and see that a tremendous degree of violence and oppression has been perpetrated in reference to some set of beliefs that owe their popularity to historical accident, and we might look upon those who ascribe to such beliefs as either historically illiterate or irrational. In such a wacky alternative universe as I have here proposed, many Christians would know little if anything of the processes that came to define their own beliefs, and the majority of them would have taken on the mantle of Christians in suspicious accordance with the opinions of their parents, well before such a point as they could reasonably be expected to make such a determination on their own.
Here, again, is the Edict of Thessalonika, the first message to be delivered to the world on behalf of Christianity in its complete and modern form:
It is our desire that all the various nations which are subject to our clemency and moderation, should continue to profess that religion which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter, as it has been preserved by faithful tradition, and which is now professed by the Pontiff Damasus and by Peter, Bishop of Alexandria, a man of apostolic holiness. According to the apostolic teaching and the doctrine of the Gospel, let us believe in the one deity of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, in equal majesty and in a holy Trinity. We authorize the followers of this law to assume the title of Catholic Christians; but as for the others, since, in our judgment they are foolish madmen, we decree that they shall be branded with the ignominious name of heretics, and shall not presume to give to their conventicles the name of churches. They will suffer in the first place the chastisement of the divine condemnation and in the second the punishment of our authority which in accordance with the will of Heaven we shall decide to inflict.
Thus it was that the first act performed by the first political authority to ascribe to Trinitarian Christianity was to threaten with violence all other men who would find themselves under the Christian dominion. From this point on to the Enlightenment, when Christianity and all religion began to lose its control of the state and its influence on the minds of the educated, this threat was carried out with regularity – although, within a few hundred years, such threats were largely unnecessary, as the average person would have no access whatsoever to any materials that would contradict the doctrines under which he was ruled. These were the mechanics by which the Christians perpetuated their system of belief beyond the minority that had come to the religion of their own volition from the time of Christ to the reign of Constantine’s heirs.
To counter my quotation, Joe Carter has reproduced another by Constantine himself, which I will also reproduce here:
My own desire is, for the common good of the world and the advantage of all mankind, that thy people should enjoy a life of peace and undisturbed concord. Let those, therefore, who still delight in error, be made welcome to the same degree of peace and tranquillity which they have who believe. For it may be that this restoration of equal privileges to all will prevail to lead them into the straight path. Let no one molest another, but let every one do as his soul desires. Only let men of sound judgment be assured of this, that those only can live a life of holiness and purity, whom thou callest to a reliance on thy holy laws. With regard to those who will hold themselves aloof from us, let them have, if they please, their temples of lies: we have the glorious edifice of thy truth, which thou hast given us as our native home. We pray, however, that they too may receive the same blessing, and thus experience that heartfelt joy which unity of sentiment inspires.
This was an easy enough “sentiment” for Constantine to have expressed, having done so at a time when Christianity was relegated to a small minority of the empire’s soldiers and somewhat larger percentages of its women and slaves. Had he instead expressed his desire to subordinate the majority of the classical world that still followed the various mysteries and civic rituals, he would not have lived much longer than had those previous emperors who had been assassinated for considerably lesser transgressions against the known world. In fact, we do not need to wonder whether a believing Christian of the age who on the other hand found himself in the position to enforce his doctrines by force would opt to do so; Theodosius did just that, and this policy remained in force for well over a thousand years. At any rate, well before Constantine had his noted encounter with Christ before the final battle of the civil war, he likewise had an encounter with Apollo, whose qualities he thereafter took on, even commissioning statues of himself as that deity. Constantine was much more fortunate than those of us who never encounter any gods at all, having managed to encounter two, entirely contradictory deities on occasions entirely convenient to his own ambitions. As far as I know, he never repudiated his claim to have something of Apollo in him. And so my first question to Joe Carter, in light of his choice of quotations, would have to be, “Is this individual whom you have chosen to quote as an example of a Christian who displayed tolerance to others actually a Christian? And, if so, would you be willing to vote for a political candidate who claims to have conversed not only with Christ but also with another, more ancient deity?” My second question is, “What should we make of Christianity’s early track record in terms of governance?”
This will do for now.
If this is a debate, what is the “Resolved:”?
(I have never found putting Christianity in the docket for its various sins—the Inquisition!—to be terribly helpful. Christianity was [perhaps inextricably] intertwined with Western Civilization itself for over a thousand years. Whatever its sins and crimes, they are Western Civilization’s as well.)Report
@tom van dyke, As will be shown, there are certain very broad claims made on behalf of Christianity that I’d like to shoot down. Additionally, I am setting up other arguments down the road.Report
It may be worth noting that the Roman Catholic Church has declared Athanasius, but not Theodosius, to be a saint.Report
Thank you, Mr. Brown, and I didn’t mean to cramp your act, although my original objection to putting Christianity’s historical sins and crimes stand.
Having read the “overture,” the various posts and replies, the shelling of the beaches to soften them up, and the ensuing grenade tosses, I was simply making a plea for clarity.
If this is a debate, there should be a “Resolved:”
There is a rough “Resolved:” out there for the necessity of theism for the continued success of our polity, and [in my view pointless at this point] polemics against Christianity and/or atheism. [Each of which of course have plenty of well-rehearsed arguments—the Inquisition, the Soviet Union, whathaveyou.]
My original understanding of the debate was whether we can get by without a God or not. It’s not as if this is the first time I’ve been around this block, and I doubt it’s the first time for any of the formal participants in the debate. Geez, this one has been played almost infinitely on the internet, and is sub rosa in many other discussions and debates.
This one seems quite promising, and many others have thought so too—an interblog debate between honest men of good will. Thast is miracle enough. But it is a debate.
A formal debate requires a “Resolved:”
The “winner” of a debate is often the one who best sticks to the topic. What’s the topic? With all due respect, I still don’t know. Christianity sucks. Atheism sucks. Western civilization sucks. Man sucks.
Stipulated.Report
@tom van dyke, Mr. Van Dyke, I have to concur on the need for a proposition to defend and attack. I was looking for the word, and “The Resolved” is what I was grasping for. Without a proposition to put to question, we merely have reflections on a topic, or in this case, on topics.
Enumerating Christianity’s sins (as well as those of other faiths’, and indeed of political and economic movements as well) is something that I think needs to be done, however, for the sake of historical understanding. Though not without also accounting for such doctrines’ and and movements’ achievements and contributions. We should never think that such considerations can be done in a perfectly accurate way, as one can never know what wonders and perfidies a version of history without those institutions but instead with other would have included. But that doesn’t make a case for historical forgetting.Report
I would love to see a debate with the following: Resolved Constantine was the worst thing to happen to Christianity in its history.Report
Thank you, Mr. Drew. We as [very] interested observers are resolved on the need for a “Resolved:”
What the hell is the debate topic?
See? We agree already, as manifestly two gentlemen of good will and we hope, honest men to boot.
The details can trickle out, as Mr. Brown has promised they will, and all good time should be alloted. But First Things, first, as at least one side should agree. Presumably, that’s why they agreed to participate in this the first place. Anybody can say “because the Bible tells me so,” or “the Catholic Church tells me so.”
I do not expect that the First Things folks walked into this buzzsaw with only fideism as the gameplan. Fr. Neuhaus never did.
But even though the participants are clearly honest men of good will, this is a formal debate, and they haven’t agreed yet on what the hell they’re arguing about. Mr. Drew and Mr. Van Dyke share the same puzzlement, first things first.
Resolved:Report
A preview of my response can be found here. I think Mr. Drew and Mr. van Dyke raise an important point, which I address at the beginning of my post.Report
And, thinking about it, Michael, and all the internet sophistry I’ve seen, it comes down to who assumes the burden of proof.
Mostly, it’s a game of who can shift the burden of proof onto the other guy. Then you just shoot him down from the duck blind. Fire away, defend nothing. The ducks do not counterattack.
And as we’ve seen, you can either argue against the Catholic/Christian church [incl. the Reformation, post-95 Theses] or against Stalin and Mao.
Resolved: Western Civilization cannot sustain without a belief in the Judeo-Christian God.
Resolved: Sure it can.
Whoever gets stuck with the affirmative, the defense, has already lost because this is the question of our age.
Actually, I’d rather defend the “sure it can,” because Western Civilization has not yet collapsed. “Sure, it can survive without any notion of God. 60 years now, and counting!”
[I do acknowledge your historical objections as noted.]Report
Mr. Van Dyke appears to be one of the sharper knives in the proverbial drawer.
Yes, yes, gentlemen a formal debate please!
One grows weary of this middle school gotchaism and thank you Mr. Van Dyke.Report
JC, from his link: “Our contention is not for mere toleration, but for absolute liberty.”
Really? So you have no opposition to the state marrying any two people who so desire? Or homosexuals serving in the military? You marched and spoke in opposition to the war in Iraq? You are active in opposing a possible war against Iran? You opposed State intervention in resolving the dispute about Terri Schiavo? You speak out against those who seek to teach ‘intelligent design’ in schools? Or those who claim that anthropogenic global warming could not possibly be happening because we have been put here by god?
Because these are the things that would be required of someone committed to absolute liberty, not mere tolerance and certainly not intolerance. Tolerance, after all, does not require an affirmative act; if absolute liberty is greater than mere tolerance, it must pose an active duty on you, JC, to work your hardest against those who preach intolerance in all its forms.Report
As a libertarian, I see upsides to all sorts of belief systems.
Christianity has *THIS* going for it, atheism has *THAT* going for it, Buddhist has *THIS OTHER THING* going for it, and, of course, the Jains are the Jains.
Now since I am a pretty hard-core atheist, they all strike me, pretty much, as matters of taste.
From this angle, I don’t understand why this isn’t perfectly analogous an argument over the virtues of chocolate vs. strawberry.Report
@Jaybird,
Are you restricting this to the present debate between theism and atheism in an apolitical sense? Because some belief systems can have consequences which are greater than the choice between chocolate and strawberry — more like the choice between freedom nd slavery, life and death.Report
@MFarmer, completely agree with this point. the consequences of christianity redound well beyond the sphere of a traditional theism/atheism ( barrett, like most of us on this side, is no longer an atheist as far as i can tell and seems to have moved on to antitheism*, a fact which informs my point) and out into the world of how people actually live their mundanity. i don’t think barrett intends to do that and i suspect (your honor, this whole comment is speculative–objection overruled because i am judge jury and executioner and i say go on, me) that JC (hey…wait a second…) won’t like it there on the playing field of the real world. he will lost that debate, and lose it ugly. i speculate.
*allegedly coined by chris hitchens, but it was said about me in 1990, and i was chris’s fact checker in 1990, and though i don’t remember 1990 due to all the…ginger ale…i think i planted the seed in his head.Report
@robert green,
“that JC (hey…wait a second…)”
Hmmm…is this really a fair debate?Report
@MFarmer, the whole “leave me alone” debate is another debate entirely.
But when it comes to posts on the internet explaining why this belief system is superior to that one?
Dude, we’re arguing matters of taste.Report
Okay, dude.Report
I am too drunk to read this but I concur. 🙂Report
I am always on your side. Well, maybe. 😛Report
@whitney, I’ve been looking for the drunken comments you said you left on my blog. And by chance I find them here when I happened to see your name in the sidebar. This isn’t my blog! I wish it were. My blog is the one with about 7 hits a day, and 32 followers, one of whom is from Serbia. (yes, I analyse my stats, it’s very arousing) And I know you’re always on my side. We should have done this by email. (Who do I know from Serbia?) I’m most intrigued.Report