False dichotomies: Foragers vs. Farmers edition
Robin Hanson’s post on “Type A and Type B” people (or foragers vs. farmers) is like a weird cousin of the novel, Ishmael. And like every other pundit’s false dichotomy, it fails to deliver (my own excursions into this practice included). Here’s Hanson:
TYPE *A* folks eat a healthier more varied diet, and get better exercise. They more love nature, travel, and exploration, and they move more often to new communities. They work fewer hours, and have more complex mentally-challenging jobs. They talk more openly about sex, are more sexually promiscuous, and more accepting of divorce, abortion, homosexuality, and pre-marital and extra-marital sex. They have fewer kids, who they are more reluctant to discipline or constrain. They more emphasize their love for kids, and teach kids to more value generosity, trust, and honesty.
Type A folks care less for land or material posessions, relative to people. They spend more time on leisure, music, dance, story-telling and the arts. They are less comfortable with war, domination, bragging, or money and material inequalities, and they push more for sharing and redistribution. They more want lots of discussion of group decisions, with everyone having an equal voice and free to speak their mind. They deal with conflicts more personally and informally, and more prefer unhappy folk to be free to leave. Their leaders lead more by consensus.
TYPE *B* folks travel less, and move less often from where they grew up. They are more polite and care more for cleanliness and order. They have more self-sacrifice and self-control, which makes them more stressed and suicidal. They work harder and longer at more tedious and less healthy jobs, and are more faithful to their spouses and their communities. They make better warriors, and expect and prepare more for disasters like war, famine, and disease. They have a stronger sense of honor and shame, and enforce more social rules, which let them depend more on folks they know less. When considering rule violators, they look more at specific rules, and less at the entire person and what feels right. Fewer topics are open for discussion or negotiation.
Type B folks believe more in good and evil, and in powerful gods who enforce social norms. They envy less, and better accept human authorities and hierarchy, including hereditary elites at the top (who act more type A), women and kids lower down, and human and animal slaves at the bottom. They identify more with strangers who share their ethnicity or culture, and more fear others. They have more murder and are less bothered by violence in war, and toward foreigners, kids, slaves, and animals. They more think people should learn their place and stay there. Nature’s place is to be ruled and changed by humans.
Apparently Type A people are liberals – but more importantly they are foragers; and Type B people are conservatives – but again, more importantly, they are farmers – at least in a very abstract-to-the-point-of-uselessness sense of those words. More interestingly, Hanson suggests that rich people are more Type A and poor people are more Type B. This is probably more true than the liberal/conservative culture-war divide, but it still leaves a lot to be desired.
For instance, most people don’t fit into the ‘rich’ or ‘poor’ boxes any better than they do the ‘liberal’ or ‘conservative’ boxes. Most people are not Type A or Type B. We have a Middle Class for a reason. If anyone tries to sell you a formula that shovels all people into two Types or Archetypes, well, you can rest assured they’re selling snake oil. Which may be just the oil you need. Placebos are effective, and this sort of thinking is nothing more than a placebo – a clever substitute for an actual idea.
I mean, on the one hand you have these Type A folks who express their love for kids, don’t work too much (but whose work is generally very complex and challenging!) and who enjoy nature, long walks on the beach at sunset, and talking about their feelings. On the other you have Type B folks who don’t mind having slaves, who murder each other more often, and whose better grasp of self-sacrifice and self-control make them…uhm…more likely to commit suicide.
I’m just not buying this. It strikes me as the very worst sort of punditry, the creation of a false either/or wherein the Either are raised high on a pedestal and the Or are left to flounder in the mud. It’s even worse than the Red and Blue family nonsense that permeated the blogosphere not so long ago. That was bad enough. But this is just more of the same. People are more complicated than this. Quit trying to shove them into your tiny little boxes where culture is just a color to paint with and our political affiliation is the final determination of Everything About Us, of The Very World Itself, the Be All and End All, Alpha and Omega, and Yada Yada Yada. Where all nuance is shredded into meaninglessness by people trying, oh-so-hard, to be cleverer than thou.
You’re obviously a Type A, Erik. You hate dichotomies, either-or choices.Report
I prefer neither/nor punditry myself. As in, “I read neither you nor you, because you’re both idiots.” (Not you or anyone here, E.D.)Report
I’ve not been so enthused with the hunter/gatherer kick he’s been on lately, either. He asked not long ago why there were no “gathering sports” — all the usual sports are simulated hunting, he said.
I found myself puzzled rather than enlightened. Surely basketball is a gathering sport — you gather things into a basket, no? While fending off rivals, who would prefer to gather things into a different basket?
And likewise to soccer, hockey, lacrosse… It was just a very strange post, I thought.Report
@Jason Kuznicki, Well, as someone who’s been known to throw tailgate parties at easter egg hunts, I think he’s full of shit.Report
@Jason Kuznicki,
Isn’t curling simulcasted farming? The broom create a furrow for the seed to fit itself into.Report
Its a typical Robin Hanson argument – a bunch of nearly meaningless generalities leading to an extremely abstract conclusion which is held to be true because its depressing and counterintuitive at the same time. I can’t understand for the life of me why so many people who I think are genuinely smart thing Robin Hanson is smart. I must be missing something.Report
I’d suggest three things — his arguments about the importance of signaling, particularly in health care; his work around the idea of the Great Filter; and — going out on a limb — his futarchy stuff. I am least enamored of the latter, but it’s still very interesting and possibly revolutionary. Unfortunately, we’ll probably all have to be dead before we find out for sure.
Come to think of it, that’s rather like the other two.Report
If I’m not mistaken, there is some social science that maps on to Hanson’s thesis. Didn’t Brink Lindsay gesture at something similar in his Five Books interview?
“The wonderful article by Jonathan Haidt, ‘Planet of the Durkheimians’, which he is in the process of expanding into a book, explores his very insightful analysis of different foundations for liberal and conservative morality. When liberals talk about morality they are almost always talking about two different basic intuitions – intuitions about harm and care. That is, we don’t want people to be harmed and we want to care for people when they are hurting. Also, fairness and reciprocity: we want things to be fair, we want like cases to be treated alike. This is the basic liberal morality – whether it is libertarian morality or modern liberal morality, those are the buttons that get pushed that activate a liberal sense of moral outrage. But there are other moral buttons in the human moral imagination that liberals don’t pay much attention to that are still very present and lively and salient in the conservative moral imagination. Those are what Haidt calls the authority foundation, the in-group, out-group foundation and the sacreds versus disgust foundation. Authority is the sense of hierarchy and the sense that everything should be in its proper place. The leaders should lead and the followers should follow, people should know their station in life. The in-group out-group is just the solidarity of the tribe – that the key distinction is between us and them.”
http://fivebooks.com/interviews/brink-lindsey-on-traditional-and-liberal-conservatismReport
@Will, I was thinking about Haidt as well when I read this.
But I was focusing on that aspect of his findings which identifies why three of five moral receptors are shut down in liberals: that liberals elevate the individual while conservatives view individuals in context.
And, from that view, what you see in Mr. Hanson’s writings are the ravings of a very sick man.
I saw a similar error in another writing recently; a link I picked up here, I believe. The man was defining various political terms, and one of the distinctions that he used for Liberals/Conservatives is that Liberals trust in the individual whereas Conservatives are simply mistrustful of individuals.
Again, it is the false equivalence of taking a preference for finding meaning within context as distrust.
But it is because of errors such as these that their grand schemes could never be fulfilled.
Even more telling, rather than statesmanship, negotiation, and compromise being held as being a proper function for political process, this is just another slash-and-burn “crush your enemy” steamroller demonization.
Something tells me that when you replace proper virtues with destructive functions, that not much good will come of it.Report
I would like to know where shellfish aqua-culture fits into this rubric.Report
People are more complicated than this. Quit trying to shove them into your tiny little boxes where culture is just a color to paint with”
+1Report
I hesitate to say this for various reasons, but this is the sort of pulled-out-of-the ass (but hinting at some superficial knowledge of actual theory and research), overly simplistic, quasi-social scientific claptrap that a certain breed of American liberal/progressive, one that is particularly common in the blogosphere (educated, worldly, “Type A” all the way, but not exceptionally bright), absolutely loves. That’s not to say that conservatives don’t have their equally wacky, though perhaps significantly more pernicious, equivalents, it’s just that this breed of “liberals are like x, while conservatives are like y” has enjoyed a fair amount of popularity among liberals/progressives since at least the Lakoff craze of 2004. And this, it strikes me, isn’t even the most offensive (to conservatives) version of this trend. It wasn’t uncommon a few years ago, even among some of the science blogosphere (one particular science blogger, whose name rhymes with Dora, was particularly bad about this), to hear from some liberals that research showed that conservatism was a mental disorder. Now the research showed no such thing, and you had to throw in a—pardon the pun—liberal dose of this sort of nonsense to get to that position, but once you set out in that direction, the temptation to feel that villainizing your opponents is just good science can be too strong to resist. What I find truly odd about it, though, is that these tend to be the same people who rail against Evolutionary Psychology (with capital letters) because it tends to just confirm popular prejudice, yet they have no problem accepting similar reasoning when it’s their (elite?) prejudice that’s being confirmed. Evolutionary Psychology really is shit science, largely because of the way it reasons about the mind and behavior, but that sort of reasoning about the mind and behavior doesn’t become less shitty because it’s no longer telling us the world is like it looked in 1950s television shows, but instead is more like it looks in an episode of Countdown with Keith Olbermann.
I should add that, as long as it’s merely confirming liberal prejudice and goes no further, it’s probably harmless, because only liberals will care (except for the conservatives who stop in, and who are enraged, enraged I tell you, which they would have been anyway), and everyone everywhere has their pet methods for confirming the belief that we’re better than they are in all of the ways that we think we are. I was a bit worried back when Lakoff had the ear of prominent politicians, but since his 15 minutes have now been up for some time, I think we can rest assured that this will remain a blogospheric phenomenon with no real practical implications.Report
There are two types of people in the world.
People who sort others into two types of people.
People who don’t.Report
@Jaybird, Yes, that’s what “Alice Found There”.Report
@Chris “Evolutionary Psychology really is shit science, largely because of the way it reasons about the mind and behavior…”
Care to elaborate? My impression is that you are confusing the popular view of evolutionary psychology with the actual science, which in my view, is very valuable. If it had to be summed up very briefly, it is about applying Darwinism to the brain and behavior. Not all change is cultural, there is room for genetics at this level.Report
@Andy Smith, Not at length here, no. Suffice it to say that I’m not confusing “the popular view of evolutionary psychology” with the actual science. I am trying to avoid confusing one type of evolutionary psychology, in the Tooby-Cosmides-Buss-Pinker mold (Pinker doesn’t do much actual research in E.P., but is instead a popularizer), and a broader conception of psychology that considers evolutionary theory and history (e.g., the sort of comparative psychology that Marc Hauser does when he’s not making up data). That’s why I, in keeping with a convention that has been around for a few years, refer to Evolutionary Psychology (with initial capitals) and evolutionary psychology, as distinct things, the former being the T-C-B-P type. Evolutionary Psychology is the sort described in the http://www.psych.ucsb.edu/research/cep/primer.html”>Evolutionary Psychology Primer, and defined primarily by its position that “our modern skulls house a stone age mind,” that much/most of our behavior is the result of modules developed in the stone age Environment of Evolutionary Adaptedness, and by its use, with one real exception (Tooby and Cosmides use of a single method over 20+years), of non-experimental methods (e.g., Buss mostly uses surveys), and a generally poor grasp of evolutionary theory. This version is, thankfully, dying a slow death within academia. The other version, evolutionary psychology, is just psychology as it has been done for a while, combining various subfields like cognitive, social, developmental, and comparative psychology with a knowledge of evolutionary theory (actual evolutionary theory, as opposed to the perversion of evolutionary theory used in Evolutionary Psychology). Evolutionary Psychology (not evolutionary psychology) is shit science, period.Report
@Chris, Sorry about the html issues there.Report
@Chris, As far as I know, Pinker has an ongoing research program into language going. From what I know about it, I wouldn’t refer to it as shit science.
“much/most of our behavior is the result of modules developed in the stone age Environment of Evolutionary Adaptedness”
Words like “much/most” and “result of” obviously allow for a lot of argument. I think the key point is “modules”. If one doesn’t believe that the brain has modules–specific regions that evolved to elaborate fairly specific, survival-oriented behavior–then I guess one will reject a lot of EP. If one thinks we do, then maybe not. What is certainly not debatable is that the brain has modules of some sort, which did evolve a long time ago (in many cases, probably well before the stone age). One might argue about how specific the behavior is, about how resistant it is to change, and maybe that is where a lot of antipathy to EP comes from.Report
@Andy Smith, Massive modularity, which most Evolutionary Psychology assumes, is improbable, given what we know about the brain (Patricia Churchland says it’s impossible), but even if one believes that the brain is massively modular, one can reject Evolutionary Psychology for a whole host of reasons. Hell, Fodor himself rejects it, though his reasons are bizarre. The truth is, most of empirical psychology rejects Evolutionary Psychology, because it’s methodologically and theoretically inferior to most of empirical psychology. And I won’t even say what biologists think of Evolutionary Psychology, except to note that when referring to it, they tend not to use nice words.
And Pinker does good research. He just doesn’t do research in Evolutionary Psychology (or much of it), as he’s a psycholinguist by training.Report
I just want to offer the observation that throughout history and around the world, whenever foragers and farmers have come into contact, the foragers eventually lose out and disappear. They either die, or they become farmers themselves after seeing the advantages.Report