Stupid Tuesday questions, Dave Coulier edition
Remember the 90s?
[I’m going to stop right there and ask for pity. If your answer to the above question is “Yes! I was potty training at the time,” please refrain from making me feel ancient until I’ve had time to drink another cup of coffee or two. Thank you in advance.]
Anyway, the 90s. Remember them? If you were anywhere near a radio during the middle part of that decade, you are probably very familiar with one Alanis Morissette. Her album “Jagged Little Pill” was an unstoppable musical juggernaut. It spawned a pile of hit singles and probably made her enough money to buy Paraguay. It was also one of the few albums my best friend at the time and I could agree on when we would drive somewhere, so I heard a lot of it.
Among her many hits was a little tune called “Ironic.” As one might surmise from the title, it was all about life’s little ironies. Or rather, it was meant to be. It stirred a minor lexical controversy, as many usage prescriptivists objected to such things as rain on one’s wedding day being described using that term. I will leave it to the indispensable Kory Stamper to deal with that issue.
However, something occurred to me as I was driving along this morning listening to one of the 90s stations on my satellite radio. Ms. Morissette’s massive break-out hit “You Oughta Know” was playing when it dawned on me — that song is truly, unambiguously ironic. Or at least parts of it are; I’m pretty sure most of the notably strident lyrics are meant to be taken at face value.
But “I want you to know that I’m happy for you, I wish nothing but the best for you both”? Ironic! “I’m sure she’d make a really excellent mother”? Ironic! “I hate to bug you in the middle of dinner”? Ironic! And also my favorite line!
Yet back in the day when people were (seriously) nattering about whether or not “Ironic” was really ironic (and I happen to think that saying “Well, isn’t this nice” when your plane is crashing certainly counts), nobody seemed to give her credit for grasping irony in at least one of her other songs.
Who would have thought? It figures.
And that’s this week’s Question — what totally random and utterly worthless realization have you had recently? What odd little thing did you happen to grasp all of a sudden? What little flicker of understanding danced across your brain? The more trivial and divorced from any practical application, the better.
I shall consider my actual answer shortly.
My first reaction to the post is, “My favorite line from that formerly-ubiquitous song was ‘Every time I scratch my nails down someone else’s back I hope you feel it.'” The line and delivery was pure, raw spite.Report
I vaguely recall that there is, in fact, a story behind that song — as in, she was in fact very angry with a specific person, and not writing a generic “spurned ex” song.
Similar to Evanescence’s “Call me when you’re Sober”.Report
There is such a story, hence the title of the post I assume.Report
Indeed.Report
I felt the same way about her Hands Clean.Report
I thought it was Mick Jagger, or maybe Warren Beatty.Report
@mike-schilling – I had an ex-girlfriend that HATED “You’re So Vain”.
“BUT IT IS!!!”Report
Y’all are doing your best to fish up my day with earworms, I swear!Report
D’oh. 🙂Report
True story…
We were in a bar for happy hour during college. “You’re So Vain” came on. Naturally, being drunk idiots, we all started to sing. Until we realized one of us wasn’t singing, “You’re so Vain”. He was singing, “You’re so lame.”
“Dude, the song is called ‘You’re So Vain’.”
“Whatever… it still works if the dude is lame.”
“I guess so.”
“Yooooooooou’re so lame!”Report
And the last episode of Breaking Bad made me think of You’re So Vain. (Pybhqf va zl pbssrr.)Report
@chris
The person-in-question is actually in question, since she is mum on the matter.
If one believes Keith Olbermann, the mystery man is Toronto Maple Leaf Doug Gilmour.Report
Consider Jackie Robinson’s career, from 1947 to 1956. I knew about most of those seasons individually, but I only recently put it together that for six of those ten years, the World Series was the Dodgers against the Yankees. That’s just nuts. (Yankees 5-1, by the way.)Report
I ‘spose that for you, a Yankees-Dodgers Series is a bit like the Iran-Iraq war: you’re trying to figure out how they both might lose.
For me, it’s the Rebel Alliance versus the Galactic Empire.Report
It’s hard to dislike the Boys of Summer, but impossible not to hate the Garvey/Lasorda version. Or the current team, which is exactly like the Yankees except that they spend even more.Report
Yankees also won in ’41, ’78, and ’79, and the Dodgers in ’63 and ’81, giving the Yanks an 8-3 lead overall.Report
@mike-schilling
77, not 79.
79 was NL co-MVP* Willie Stargell and his “family”.
*Keith Hernandez actually received 10 first place votes as opposed to Stargell’s 4, but there is no tie-breaker.Report
You are correct.Report
@mike-schilling
The irony of Willie Stargell being named co-MVP in 1979 is that he probably wasn’t even the most valuable player on the Pirates that year.
He was definitely the spiritual leader of the team, but dollars to donuts the MVP of the Pirates that year was Dave Parker. He was a monster.Report
That was one of my sister’s first CDs ever.
I hate it so much.Report
Then I shall dig it out of my archives and listen to it on my way to court this morning. See if it holds up.Report
I think it holds up pretty well, but then I still hear it filtered through the emotions of my younger self. And I still unreservedly hate “Head Over Feet.”
The “Are you thinking of me when you give her the business?” (if you will) line makes we wince a bit now, though. But that’s probably just Millicent talking.Report
If you mean “holds up” in the sense that you have been using it to level out an uneven table leg…
Count me with BB. “Oughta” was a ubiquitous song that made me want to floss my brain through my earholes, using superheated piano wire.
The overly-mannered “rockin” (which wikipedia informed me just now was provided by Flea and Dave Navarro – gentlemen, hand in your rock cards); the weird emphasis she places on the ‘-ers’ (theater; mother; dinner) – GAHReport
Objectively, I’d have to admit that it’s really not that bad, but Morissette’s singing style really grates on me, and it got played way too much at my house.Report
and now i’ve got “…in ah theahtaaah” stuck in my head. thanks guys.Report
Ugh. Head Over Feet. If you’re going to build a song around a riff, make sure it’s not unpleasant.Report
Yeah, I found that it’s still enjoyable enough that I didn’t skip any tracks — “Perfect” seems a bit overwrought but that’s about the worst I can say about it. I’ll listen to that hidden track at the end later — IIRC, it’s enjoyably creepy.Report
Well, I never owned it, so you oughta know.Report
I was unabashedly crazy-in-love with this one girl about when that album came out, and Head Over Feet really got to me in a big way.
Anyway, I’ll always love the song a lot, ’cause it is her to me.
(She said no. A month later I met my wife.)Report
“You Oughta Know” and “Ironic” are two of the many songs from the 90s that I only ever heard on MTV, and so listening to them without watching the videos is odd.
I actually heard “Ironic” just last week while standing in line at a coffee shop, and it actually sparked “Is that real irony or Morissettian irony” conversations… in 2013. That might be ironic.Report
Every day, at some point in the day, I realize that I am not even close to as smart as I think I am. This may not be random, given that it happens every day, but it’s certainly worthless, given that it has to happen every day. It usually goes something like this:
Chris: “Dum de dum de dum, doin’ things that I always do, dum de dum de dum. Man, I’m a genius.”
Someone else: “Did you mean to do/not do/include/omit that?”
Chris: “OMGWTF! I am an idiot.”
I actually sing that song while I do things.Report
I don’t think it’s worthless at all — those are the sharp rocks on the path to wisdom. Which we must walk barefoot, and backwards. With no first aid kit. And it’s a 10% incline. And I won’t even mention the ice and snow.Report
The examples you give are examples of rhetorical irony, whereas she was going for situational irony in “Ironic.” The two concepts seem to me to be only very loosely related.Report
Except she really screwed up what situational irony was.
http://somethingpositive.net/sp12192001.shtml is situational irony (the sender actually sent a gift that got stolen in the mail–also, the card saying “I’m sure you know what to do with this”).Report
The debate, it thrives!
Yes, “You Oughta Know” is unambiguous rhetorical irony, whereas the situational irony of the song was more debatable. The question seemed to hinge on how unusual or surprising a situation has to be in order to be considered truly ironic. A traffic jam when you’re already late is probably just a pain in the ass, unless you’re never late and the one time you are there’s a traffic jam when there never usually is. Rain on your wedding day is probably not really ironic unless your wedding is the only day it rains all month.
Etc etc.Report
Ten thousand spoons when all you need is a knife is not irony, it’s just means you’re not very good at purchasing inventory.Report
Rain on your wedding day isn’t ironic.
feeling SAD on your wedding day (possibly because of the rain) is ironic.
Situational Irony is about Intending One Thing and having Different Results.Report
So, actually, she is using the word irony correctly.
If you give her enough credit to be using metonymy.Report
This is a little thing, but…
In one of the last episodes of Breaking Bad, there’s a scene where a broken Walt is trudging through the desert pushing an oil drum. And at one point he passes this dusty pair of abandoned pants out in the middle of nowhere. I remember thinking at that time what an awesomely random and bizarre detail that was for them to have put in, and liked it just for that reason.
Last week I re-watched the pilot with my son, and there’s this scene where Walt’s pants blow away in the wind toward the open desert. And so I went and found the later episode, and realized: those are Walt’s pants! It blew my fishing mind.
Then I texted to a friend who is also a BB fan what I had “discovered,” and of course he had figured it out long ago. But he texted back, “NOW GO REREAD THE SHELLEY SONNET.” The sonnet he was talking about is the classic Ozymandias, which is also the title of that particular Breaking Bad episode. And here is that sonnet:
And when I read that, it occurred to me that Breaking Bad might not ever be overtaken as the most intelligent, artistic television accomplishment ever.Report
Also, the most anal about continuity. In the last episode, Walt stops at a gas station and leaves his Rolex by the pump. Why? Because he wasn’t wearing it in the previous flash-forward with the breakfast at Denny’s, and Vince Gilligan needed to explain why not.Report
it occurred to me that Breaking Bad might not ever be overtaken as the most intelligent, artistic television accomplishment ever.
Spoken like someone who’s never seen Get A Life.Report
Speaking of Chris Elliott, I only learned of the existence of this bit of genius recently:
Report
And yes, that is a tiny (well, tinier) Seth Green as his son.Report
This is a real question for all of you kids: Do you know who Chris Elliott’s father was?Report
Well, I do, and he’s in the show (as is the requisite Letterman cameo, in which which Dave makes reference to him).Report
Does………………. he……………….. talk……………… slowly……………….?Report
He’s at 13:44.Report
Did……. you…… say …… 13……. 44……………….
Report
1) I totally love that poem.
2) ARGH!!! FINE, WORLD! FINE!! I WILL WATCH “BREAKING BAD”!! Because that is, legit, a space awesome detail. If our “Downton Abbey” recaps are the straw that finally makes you watch that show, then this may be the last one for my diffidence re: “Breaking Bad.”
2a) Rest assured, friends, that when Rose lets me know she’s seen it, I will have SO MANY WORDS!!!! to say about this week’s episode.
3) Someone tell me if I’ve posted a Tuesday question about “The Fugitive” and Jane Lynch along the lines of this week’s? It’s getting to the point that I fear repeating material.Report
I plan on watching Breaking Bad within the next year, Russell. Let me know if you want a “watching buddy” to syncronize with.Report
I’m about 4 episodes into season 2 myself. So far I’m interested but not enraptured. That said it’s certainly well done, well acted etc. I’m suffering a minor Dexter phenomena. i’ve seen what crystal meth does to people (ffs it kindof dissolves their faces) and so White has a serious hurdle to clear there for me before I can start connecting with much empathy.Report
I’m thinking of starting it, too. But it might be a while.Report
It’s not The Wire, but it may well be the second best cable drama ever.Report
Imagine: Breaking Bad + Idris Elba.Report
Playing Walter Jr.Report
Yeah, Breaking Bad is great, but it’s no Wire. It just doesn’t have the same scope.
In fact, the more I think about it, Breaking Bad is almost just a (very, very well-done) elaboration on The Shield, with a meth operation substituted for a Money Train, and the bad choices a character makes to “provide for their family” resulting in an ever-escalating series of corners to extricate themselves from. If Walt is Vic, Jesse is Shane.Report
Spoilers for The Shield:
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V jbhyq unir npprcgrq vg (nf cybg, abg zbenyyl, bs pbhefr) vs gurl’q gevrq bgure jnlf gb arhgenyvmr uvz svefg, ohg zheqrevat uvz jnf gurve svefg erfbeg. Naq vg’f abg yvxr Ivp’f n pbzcyrgr cflpubcngu; yngre ba jr frr uvz erterg orngvat gung onq thl gb qrngu. V guvax gur jevgref jrer tbvat sbe fubpx inyhr, abg aneengvir be punenpgre pbafvfgrapl. Juvpu lbh pna’g oynzr gurz sbe: vg qbrfa’g znggre ubj terng gurve vqrnf ner vs gur frevrf qbrfa’g trg cvpxrq hc.Report
Gung’f pregnvayl n snve cbvag. Gur zheqre bs Pebjyrl qbrf fgnaq bhg va gung ertneq. Pbhyq vg or gung Ivp unf n fcrpvny qvfertneq sbe vasbeznag-pbcf? Gung ur ivrjf gurz nf jbefr guna pevzvanyf naq gurersber yrff jbegul bs erzbefr? Bar bs gur bgure guvatf nobhg vg V erzrzore gung frcnengrq vg sebz n ybg bs jung genafcverq vf gung ur qvq vg pbzcyrgryl nebhaq naq abg jvgu Ebaavr naq Yrz. Pbhyq or gung ur ynpxrq gurve (cnegvphyneyl Yrz’f) zbqrengvat vasyhrapr naq pbafpvrapr orpnhfr ur qvq? Vg frrzf gb zr gung Ivp jnf qrsvavgryl ng uvf jbefg jura Yrz jnfa’g nebhaq be na vasyhrapr ba uvf guvaxvat, gubhtu gung jbhyqa’g rkcynva gur hggre ynpx bs erzbefr nsgrejneqf.
Gurfr ner whfg gubhtugf. Sebz gur vagrevbe, V zrna. Sebz gur rkgrevbe – jul gur jevgref qvq jung gurl qvq – vg nyzbfg pregnvayl jnf gb tevc ernqref naq nffher gung gur fubj jnf cvpxrq hc.Report
Zl vagrecergngvba jnf Jvyy’f. Gurer vf abguvat jbefr guna na vasbeznag pbc, fb xvyyvat uvz jnf n gbgnyyl ernfbanoyr npgvba sebz gurve crefcrpgvir. Na V guvax gurl jbhyq rira pbafvqre vg n cebcbegvbangr chavfuzrag fvapr gurve orvat bhgrq jbhyq chg gurz va cevfba–juvpu gurl creprvirq nf rdhvinyrag gb qrngu.Report
If John Kerry changed his hairstyle, he’d be the spitting image of Andrew Jackson. I can think of no piece of information less important than that.Report
It’s not important now, but if he’d thought of it in 2004, he might have become president! “Vote for the guy who looks like Andrew Jackson!” would have been a better campaign slogan than any I recall him using at the time.Report
“Andrew Jackson reporting for duty!”Report
“Teresa may have a lot of money, but it’s all in 20-dollar bills!”Report
John Kerry is already the spitting image of Pete Carroll. Or maybe it’s the other way around.Report
Yet another reason to prefer Harbaugh.Report
My realization is that I have apparently forgotten who my first employer was.
According to Comcast’s account verification question, anyway.Report
As we have discussed previously, I HATE HATE HATE the security questions.
What’s the point of having a password when it can be circumvented by knowing my high school mascot?Report
Arguably, the peak of Matt LeBlanc’s acting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_LFnEoG62QReport
First, if you like Alanis, the 90’s, and/or “Ironic”, watch the opening scene of “The Internship”. The movie was largely a bust, but the opening scene features that song in a pretty fantastic way and sucked me into watch the rest of it (which, as I said, was a bust).
Second, I often don’t realize how things came to be called the things they are until I say it in a particular way. Naturally, all examples escape me at this moment. And then I have, “OHHHH… THAT’S why they call it that” moment. I’ll try to come up with an example.
Wiki tells me Jagged Little Pill came out when I was 11 on the verge of 12. For some reason, at the time, I remember Alanis and her music being something you weren’t supposed to like… and were kinda supposed to laugh at. At least in my social circles. I don’t know if it was the out-of-nowhere stardom and assumption she was a one-hit-wonder, the “chick rocker” thing, or the Dave Coulier thing… but for some reason, she wasn’t “cool”. Then I heard some of the songs again in college and was like, “This actually sort of rocks.” And a number of friends did, too. We weren’t sure if liking her at that point was itself supposed to be ironic (this was pre-hipster irony days, but the potential for irony still existed), but we said fuck it and rocked out because the music was good.Report
Part of being a teen — or even approaching it — is learning where your peer group draws the clique lines.
A friend of mine jokes that, in high school, she was the ‘wrong sort’ of Goth. Apparently her particularly area was infested with punk Goth and she was Romantic Goth (or something. I really never could keep the groups straight).
I have a vague memory — around eleven or twelve as well — of learning the ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ ways to carry a notebook (and a backpack) at school. Didn’t want to be doing it wrong. That’d screw up your whole life.
In retrospect, those years are hilarious. At the time? Life and death, man.Report
I actually had someone stop me in the hall… “Dude… one strap. What’re you doing?”
My school situation might have been different than most with regards to Alanis. As a predominantly black school that skewed rap/hip-hop in terms of the musical zeitgeist, she might have been on the wrong side of “cool”. But I *remember* it being bigger than that. I thought I *remember* her being made fun of on TV and generally not taken seriously as a musician. That could be selective memory, confirmation bias, or just me not accurately remembering.Report
Ostro vs. Visi?Report
The “carry a backpack with just one strap” thing used to drive me crazy – it’s a backpack, the whole point is to distribute the weight across both shoulders and leave your hands free!
But thinking about it, it actually makes *some* sense to carry it across one shoulder only, you’re less vulnerable to pranks and bullies that way (you can easily shuck it and/or run if need be).Report
@mike-schilling I see what you did there.Report
You are almost a full decade younger than me, and this reminder makes me want to go lie down.Report
Yeah, we old geezers need lots of rest.Report
The other day, Zazzy and I were watching “Admission” with Tina Fey. Or wahtever it was called. It kind of stunk. But the scenes on college campuses made me say: “Remember when going out before 10pm made you a loser? Now it’s 9:30 and I’m dealing with the squirts because I ate too many prunes. We are less than a year into our 30s. WHAT HAPPENED TO US?!?!” Then we heard a cry from the nursery. Zazzy’s response: “That. That happened to us.”
You seem to enjoy a more lively life than I. You run more often and probably drink more often and might even socialize more often. Perhaps this is a function of where we are vis a vis our children’s development. But, man, I’m pretty sure I’m the oldest dude here at this point. I even complained about the music being too loud at the bar a few weeks ago.Report
Ninety percent of the time, unless we’re going to a show, R and I are now the ones who leave at 10. This depresses me every time. It depresses me so much that I frequently suggest that we go to happy hour and then go home and watch a movie because for whatever reason leaving at 7 is much less depressing than leaving at 10. At least it doesn’t remind me that I’m old and have no business being at the bar/club after 10 with all of those 22 year olds as much as leaving at 10 does.
Just this past Friday we went to a happy hour (we got there just as happy hour was ending, so around 6:45 or 7), met a group of people who’d popped in after work, and ended up enjoying ourselves so much that we hung out with them until 10, at which point we all left like a bunch of octogenarians at the end of the Early Bird Special. At about 9:30, every single one of us (there were 5 in the little group we met, plus R and me) started (furtively at first, and then very demonstrably) looking at our watches or phones and then looking around like, “I need to go home and go to bed, how do I excuse myself politely?” It was a pathetic sight to behold.Report
The last time I was in a bar for dinner/drinks was more than two years ago.
We got there after 10pm, and then drove till about 3am.Report
You are SO not the oldest dude here, @kazzy . I’m sure I have at least a decade, if not more, over you. And I’m pretty sure I’m not the oldest dude here, either. With that said, I would appreciate it if you would please get off my lawn already.Report
@burt-likko
I know I’m not the oldest chronologically, but I’m pretty sure no one else spent their weekend muttering from the bathroom, “TOO MANY PRUNES!”Report
WTMI, dude.
I’m glad everything came out alright, though.
😉Report
@chris
Zazzy, Mayo, and I went to a local bar/restaurant last Saturday to have dinner and then I was going to stick around and watch the Eagles game. After we ate, I saddled up to the bar next to a couple of guys in their 50’s or 60’s. They reminded me of my dad and were very friendly (each bought me a drink). Between the games, the bar played music. Top 40 crap. Whatevs. When the Eagles game started, at 8:30 local time, the music went off and the tv sound game on. Excellent. At halftime, they turned the music back on. Fairly typical. But then we got halfway through the 3rd quarter and I realized, “Hey… the music is still on!” But I was deeply engrossed in the game and drinking so I ignored it. Then the game ended and I got up to leave. “Wait… what happened? Three hours ago I was the youngest guy here. Now everyone looks like they’re 14. WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?!?!” In the span of one football game, I somehow aged 40 years. I guess a playoff loss can do that to you. I called a cab and got out of there because the smell of hair gel and sight of glittery pants was making me dizzy.Report
If you’re in Austin again sometime, we’re going to have to go down to Sixth Street and stay until 2, just to prove that it can be done after 30 (I actually spent a fair amount of time downtown in my early 30s, but mostly on 4th, 5th, or 7th, unless I had one purpose for being there and one purpose only… none of that will make sense to anyone who hasn’t spent time on 6th street, though).Report
When I was there, I was but still 29. And we spent the first night on Sixth Street. And after gorging on Stubbs, I had a food baby and soon slipped into a food coma. “Shots? Kazzy, wanna shot?” “I want a nap.”
On Saturday, we fell asleep playing Mario Kart after dinner. Bachelor party! In our defense, we did go river tubing all afternoon. And at the one that still enforces the can ban, meaning we were drinking some putrid mix of beer, whiskey, and soda out of thermoses.Report
You’re younger than I am :p How do you think that makes ME feel? :pReport
In Canada, she was kind of a joke-seen as a manufactured pop star (she was considered the Debbie Gibson or Tiffany of Canada). This was pre-Jagged Little Pill, when she was just “Alanis”.
When You Oughtta Know was released, she seemed like a manufactured rock star, and was the subject of scorn and derision. And, really, I don’t think she ever tried to maintain the image she presented in that video, so maybe it was a little put on.Report
Am I wrong in thinking that JLP did, in fact, rock?Report
Am I wrong in thinking that JLP did, in fact, rock?
Yes.
Someone has to stand athwart bad art yelling “Stop!”
Otherwise, in 10 years we’ll be saying things like “You know, that Michael Bay movie wasn’t that bad…it kind of rocked!” And no one wants to see that.
No one.
Now get out of my courtroom!
No appeals possible; all decisions handed down by The Rock Judge are final.Report
I call (light-hearted) foul on that. I’m a little bit touchy about musical tastes, as I’ve gotten into arguments with friends whose musical tastes are ostensibly cooler than mine wherein I’ve had to defend my more pedestrian preferences. I generally think the music people enjoy should be treated with deference, and folks oughtn’t be forced to justify liking what they like.
Except “Sex Dwarf.” Because there’s just no excuse for it.Report
Russell, you like Hem and Sonnymoon, so you have perfectly good taste.Report
Russell, you don’t like the Supremes?
Sex Dwarf!
Always second best.
Sex Dwarf!
Shorter than the rest.
Report
Well, I’m pretty sure that The Rock Judge is a bit tongue in cheek (though the landmark case of The People v. The Baha Men may prove instructive to us here).
Anyway, I’m mostly inclined to agree, people like what they like, but…why should the music people like be treated with deference, or at least any more deference than we’d afford them for liking Roland Emmerich movies, the Twilight books and reality TV?
(or, for the sports-minded among us, [reviled player/team X]?)
Having to *defend* your tastes (or at least make a stab at what you find appealing about a piece of art) makes for fun conversation, and fosters critical thinking, no?Report
@chris I was once treated to a very condescending conversation with an ex-boyfriend because I was so cliche as to like Pet Shop Boys and he was into Cibo Matto (which, sorry, I just can’t). (FWIW, he is one of two ex-boyfriends I’ve had over the years who are distinguished by the feeling of unalloyed relief I had that the relationship was over, unmarred by even a hint of regret.)
@mike-schilling You’d better hope Diana Ross doesn’t get wind of your trying to pin that song on her. She’ll choke you out.Report
And the Pet Shop Boys rule! (Though there’s nothing wrong with Cibo Matto).
But…Alanis? Come ON, we gotta draw the line somewhere!Report
@glyph I have no doubt that The Rock Judge was being tongue-in-cheek.
I don’t know quite was the distinction is, but for some reason I think there is more judgment attached to people’s musical tastes as a reflection on them as people than there is for other forms of entertainment. Maybe I’m wrong, but it seems that there is more tolerance for people who enjoy cheesy films or books than those whose musical tastes are deemed lame.
I think it’s fine to ask people why they might like something generally deemed to be less cool by All Right-Thinking People, so long as it doesn’t smack of “you’re gross for liking X… loser.”Report
I have a post that’s been sitting in draft status for months because I never got around to writing the final section (it’s a long post) that might help to explain why people are more judgemental about music than other tastes. I suppose I should finish it.Report
I mean… was JLP a bad rock album? That is what I’m asking. If it comes on now, I’m ready to rock. Am I alone in that regard? Am I 20 years too late?Report
Speaking for myself (and note, I don’t know if I’ve ever heard anything other than the inescapable singles) – I’m not sure it’s a “rock” album at all, despite the presence of loud-ish guitars. More of a dance-pop album; it’s too airlessly played and produced to have the requisite swing or looseness (the “and roll” part).
From a more general point of “does it rock” (since we do say that about dance-pop, and movies, and all kinds of things that aren’t blues-derived), I’d still say “no”, since from my vantage point its emotions seemed trumped-up, or less than fully-committed; like a corporation heard that angry music was popular now, and decided to see if they could sell angry dance-pop too.
(Which, Nine Inch Nails etc. But run with it for a sec anyway – for whatever reason, the performance of the Reznors of the world seemed more genuine, less calculated. They ring somewhat less false to me.)
(And note that I say “somewhat”, since I am not a huge NiN fan either, and for some of the same reasons.)
But, as people have pointed out, Morrissette appeared to be writing from genuine and painful personal experience; and I have no doubt that hearing “Oughta” on the radio rang true for a lot of people; maybe for some people it was even sort of revelatory, the first time they’d heard their own feelings expressed in that context.Report
@russell-saunders
“I don’t know quite was the distinction is, but for some reason I think there is more judgment attached to people’s musical tastes as a reflection on them as people than there is for other forms of entertainment. Maybe I’m wrong, but it seems that there is more tolerance for people who enjoy cheesy films or books than those whose musical tastes are deemed lame.”
i would suggest this is because a) people have peak experiences (drugs, sex, intense emotional experiences, ecstatic dancing, blah blah blah*) involving music that isn’t as common with movies and largely uncommon with books. this doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen – of course it does – but with music, that’s nearly universal.
b) self-identification and music went pretty hand in hand for the past hundo years or so, deeply intensifying in the late 80s/early 90s. i don’t believe it’s as rigid now, but no doubt continues. brosteppers of the world unite and all that.
* speaking of the 90s! i just flashback’d myself to a bunch of terrible dj-as-shaman essays.Report
@glyph
See if you can find the opening scene to “The Internship”. I feel like Vince Vaughn in that scene. “TELL ME YOU DON’T GET PSYCHED UP WHEN THE CHORUS HITS!”Report
Dude, the dj-as-shaman* essays were some of the more coherent ones! Everybody was on drugs!
But yeah, mods and rockers and all that.
*Speaking of flashbacks, that word gave me one:
Report
I think the Robin Sparkles, Robin Scherbatsky’s doppleganger on How I Met Your Mother, is an Alanis Morrisette take-off.
Alanis Morrisette was also on You Can’t Do That on Television, the 80’s Nickleodeon staple. To be fair though, she was only in five episodes. She was no Christine McGlade or Lisa Ruddy.Report
@glyph
god the shamen were the worst.Report
@dhex – Oh, I don’t know about the WORST; we can’t forget about this abomination (sorry for link, embedding options seem to be gone on YouTube for some reason? Is anyone else having that issue?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odQgfUUegQI&hd=1
But the Shamen weren’t great, for sure (“Move Any Mountain”!).
Like I said, everybody was on drugs, so a lot of questionable music got made and played.
Though weirdly, I listened to a bunch of KLF recently, some of which was still kind of mind-blowing in a “how did this even HAPPEN?” way.
Which, see above.Report
Oh, those tricksy YouTubers.
If anyone is having the same issue with embed code not showing, it appears they now are not displaying the options under “Share” if you are running AdBlocker.
Turn that off and they will serve it up.Report
i am largely confused by the musical legacy of the klf. prankster legacy is amazing, music is……………ahem.Report
Granted that their “conceptual” side (which I intended to do a post on at one point, but never got around to) usually far outstripped the “musical” side (though I recall Chill Out being a solid ambient record); but even their “hits” were just so…well, they are somehow majestic, in all their nonsensical excess.
KLF!
Uh-huh!
Uh-huh-uh-huh!
BEEP BOOP!
BOOP BEEP!Report
Well, I’m old. Compared to many of you, anyway. The original event was from the 1980’s, the Police, “Every Breath You Take.” Total stalker song. It’s a vile curse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMOGaugKpzs
My sweetie plays lots of gigs. And if they’re doing a rock gig, inevitably someone will request it as a love song. Most particularly during the ’90’s. I’m here to remind you that the words mean just what they say.
Feeling often means more than the actual meaning.Report
eee…. yeah, I don’t think i’ve ever read the lyrics before.
(and I haven’t heard it since Forever.)
There are far worse songs (like one about a serial killer — thank Falco).
… but at least people don’t request them as love songs!Report
I got one. Wichita Lineman. The lyrics make it unclear if the “line” is electrical or telephone, but if you read them one way, the song is about an infatuated telephone line repairman who’s listening in on a woman’s phone calls. Awe-inspiringly beautiful song, though.Report
I googled it, couldn’t find a transcription of the morse code in the guitar riff; but I’ve got serious migraine, so the search was cursory.
But I think it’s just a poem that makes use of the different meanings of line. The telephone line. The power line. The telegraph line. The lines in relationships. The lines of communication. The lines we don’t cross. The lines we wait in. The lines waiting for decisions others make.
It explores one word’s meaning, but it doesn’t twist those meanings into their negative space like wishing someone well when you hate them or cursing them so that others think it a love song.
It would be interesting to find the meaning; my sweetie’s a radio boy, I’ll ask him what it means when he gets home and gets settled.Report
Ah, “Every Breath”: along with “Pretty in Pink”, one of the two most-misinterpreted songs of the eighties!
(Some people argue for “The One I Love” as the third, but I disagree).Report
John Lennon’s Run For Your Life is pretty straightforward.Report
Blatantly.
Do you know Crow Jane?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytVww5r4Nk0Report
However, the reboot “I’ll Be Missing You” by Puff Daddy is a fantastic song.Report
Now I KNOW you’re messing around.
Interesting piece here. Apparently the Diddy song makes the Police about $2000 per day.
http://dangerousminds.net/comments/sting_puff_daddy_andy_summers_and_the_case_of_the_misplaced_bajillion_dollaReport
That was a really interesting link Glyph. The music industry is crazy weird with funked up copy write laws and nutzoid people. It’s hard to even remember when the Police were this wild cool new band.Report
It’s a little longer read, but the 2000 Revolver interview with the whole band is pretty great. Very, very argumentative, yet also funny and full of backhanded compliments along with the insults.
Not unlike this place!
http://www.sting.com/news/article/4251Report
Glyph, that may be the most amazing interview I’ve ever read. I read it listening to the music as they were talking about it, and it was quite an experience. I may never look at some of those songs the same.
I love that none of them have any idea how Synchronicity I relates to Synchronicity II.Report
My daughter loves that song, which garners her the ‘Spock’ eyebrow from me. I mean.. it’s a complete stalker song.
She also likes to sing that Backstreet Boys song, “As long as you love me”.
“I don’t care who you are, where you’re from, what you did, as long as you love me.”
So I could be some coke jacked out serial murderer that just got out of the pen, butchered my way through fourteen churches and daycares, but it’s A-OK as long as I love you?
/twitchReport
@zic – it’s well-known that “Breath” uses a classic chord progression:
Whether people are associating “Breath” with the more romantic sentiments of the earlier song, or whether that particular chord progression is just so pretty and predictable (I mean that in a good, comforting way) I can’t say.Report
Yeah; they didn’t even bother to change up the beat.
Excellent! I’m sure the experience of music past shapes the content of music future.
(And I also hear shades of YMCA; not to mention countless other tunes once you do start flipping beats.)Report
Now, to answer the original question and hopefully redeem my threadjack.
At Leaguefest 2012 in Las Vegas, @will-truman made a comment that at some point in his life he realized that when he contemplated Republicans, he had been mentally using the pronoun “they” instead of the pronoun “us” for quite some time. And he realized the full implications of this and what it meant about his own politics. Will described a mental journey that I realized I had previously completed as well — a journey I had probably completed at least five years previously, but hadn’t been willing to articulate to myself because of a previous formation of my own identity. Perhaps the feeling was warmed a bit by the gin, but at this moment I was 100% simpatico with him, realizing that we’d had the exact same experience, and grateful that he’d found such a crystalline means of describing it.
It was a similar feeling as when I articulated my own atheism to myself after having been brought up Roman Catholic. Interestingly, articulating my atheism to myself came earlier in life than articulating my disidentification with the GOP.Report
My realizations are usually of the form “holy cow! Casey Casem was Shaggy!” and lamer so I don’t know that I have any really shareworthy ones…
But I will say that I looked forward to Alanis’s followup album because I loved JLP so much and when I got to the song “Are You Still Mad“, I had to stop listening to it for a while.Report
I had the same kind of thing when I first bought The Who By Numbers. “Wow, it has a song called Squeeze Box, just like that dumb sex song they play on the radio. What a coincidence!”Report
Wait a minute,
Penguins can’t fly!!!! Penguins can’t fly!!!!!!Report
Poor things, they’re just feathered pigs.Report
Twas a reference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JsZbSzMi08Report
I wasn’t cool enough to get it.Report
@jm3z-aitch
Liking the Critic probably explains why I did not date until after college…Report
I loved The Critic.Report
I still crack up at Children of a Lesser Godzilla.Report
Well we agree on something.
—
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: Hello, and welcome to “Coming Attractions.” I’m Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, and this is Little Knothead.
Jay Sherman: This is so demeaning. I have a PhD in film!
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: Okay, Dr. Knothead, why don’t you sing “John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt” while I drink aglass of water.
Jay Sherman: [singing] John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt / That’s my name too! I spit in the water.
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: Knothead!
[spits water]
—
BTW, we all agree that Duke Phillips is just a Ted Turner parody, right?Report
A link to the preceding:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaWyVjgBbnUReport
“Penguins can’t fly!!!! Penguins can’t fly!!!!!!”
No, but I swear to god that turkeys can.Report
Greatest episode of an intermittently great show.
“Those phone cops play hardball!”Report
*nods* Turkeys are lizards that fly.Report
It wasn’t until a few years ago (and thanks to the internet) that I realized the thing the Scarecrow says at the end of the Wizard of Oz is totally wrong. And part of the ongoing con that is the Wizard and Emerald City.Report
Seals look like giant furry grubworms.Report
furry ??? grubworms….Are you sure you aren’t thinking of fat Chihuahua’sReport
I recently realized that in Star Wars Episode 3 Obi-Wan doesn’t actually have a beard. He has a goatee and a few days growth on the side. Seriously, check this out:
http://www.havingfun.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/photos/Obi%20photos/beard%20example.jpg
I’m not sure what the reason was behind that choice but it’s pretty weird.Report
For George Lucas, the process of growing a full beard counts as “character development”.Report
Any joke with the punchline “Free Embolisms”
ought not to be repeated.Report