What risk management has taught me about the Trayvon Martin shooting
One of the byproducts of having spent the past two decades in risk management is that, for better or worse, I tend to view everything I see in the news through that lens. This has certainly been the case this past week, as cable news networks, talk radio stations and political blogs have suddenly reaffixed their spotlight on last February’s shooting of Trayvon Martin.
We argue so much over which of the primary characters to cast as the hero, and which the villain. Because of this, key parts of the story get lost in over-hyped sensationalism until the inevitable “next” tragedy occurs. And make no mistake, this tragedy absolutely will happen again. Because what risk management has taught me about the Trayvon Martin shooting is this:
The biggest villains in this case are Florida’s Stand Your Ground laws, and the political office holders who sold them to voters. By focusing solely on Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman, we’re focusing on the bright, shiny trees and we’re missing the dark and very dangerous forest.
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A few years ago I was asked to talk with the executive director of a private social service agency from a different state. In the preceding two months that organization had dealt with the deaths of two of the people they served. Each of the deaths involved violence, and in each case there were concerns that staff actions had at the very least “contributed” to the tragedies. Furthermore, they had also recently been made aware that the parents of a different person in their care was considering calling in the authorities and accusing their son’s caregiver of physical abuse. The executive director was understandably concerned, and wanted to speak with someone about his own concerns completely off the record. (His attorney was on his board of directors, and his own risk manager might have been obligated to report his concerns to his insurance carrier.) To his credit, he was not seeking a line of defense against accusations; he sincerely wanted to know whether or not they should be doing things differently. As it turned out, his organization probably was at least indirectly responsible for what had occurred.
The adults that they served were both highly emotional and particularly difficult to deal with; none of them could communicate with speech, and many could not comprehend the most rudimentary of hand signals. Angry outbursts were not uncommon, and on very rare occasions those outbursts could turn violent. A year before the first death, a caregiver made the surprisingly common error of attempting to restrain a very large person under her care by herself, despite strict organizational rules to only do so with at least one other caregiver. An extremely violent outburst ensued, and she ended up in a hospital with severe bruising, a split lip and a broken arm. As you might imagine, the rest of the staff was shaken up pretty badly.
Management’s reaction to this horror was to go out of their way to let employees know that management had their collective back. Rules about employee safety were slightly rewritten to let employees know that they shouldn’t tolerate certain types of behavior. (And indeed, they shouldn’t.) Reviews of highly questionable employee care-giving activities began to be couched in a way that suggested that any infraction was certainly understandable and not really that big a deal. More and more, any unwelcome actions by the people they served became unacceptable – and any previously unacceptable actions taken by caregivers were found to be “acceptable under the circumstances.” Management chose to make this shift in tone because they believed that their caregivers were basically good people who would never intentionally harm another human being. This, of course, is where they made their (literally) fatal error.
One of the most important and yet troubling things that risk management has taught me is this: cultures often unintentionally and unknowingly signal tacit approval to people who wish to engage in extreme anti-social behavior. One of the terrible, cold truths I have learned over the past two decades is that organizations that cater to children or invalid adults and refuse to invest in internal checks-and-balance systems attract sexual predators. Manufacturers that can’t be bothered with employee safety not only attract injuries, they actually attract people that make their “living” by committing habitual workers comp fraud. Charitable organizations that don’t want to pony up a couple of hundred bucks for an annual audit attract embezzlers. White-collar organizations that treat sexual harassment or anti-discrimination policies as a joke attract people that get off on being cruel and hostile to those under them in the corporate chain of command.
Do not misunderstand my meaning: I’m not saying that bad management makes monsters of good people that are already in the organization. I’m saying that once bad management is implemented it calls the monsters to the door. People who live to cross certain lines go out of their way to identify employers they believe will allow them to do so, or at least look the other way for a while. (If you don’t believe me, ask your local archdiocese about all of the internal policies they’ve been forced to change over the past 10-15 years.)
The reason that the social service agency I talked to had experienced a disproportionate number of violent acts by staff members was that they had a disproportionate number of staff members that enjoyed committing violent acts. As it turned out, none of the employees who were found to be unnecessarily violent (and, as it turned out, emotionally abusive) toward their charges worked for the organization prior to management’s decision to look the other way in instances of poor care giving. A subsequent review of their hiring records showed that that each been terminated for suspected violence by previous employers, but their stories of being put in harms way by those employers was a message those doing the hiring were conditioned to accept.
I’ve been thinking a lot about that social service agency this past week as the 24-new network’s gaze has landed yet again on the terrible tragedy and media clusterf**k that is the Trayvon Martin shooting.
Over time, the covering of the case has evolved into its own cottage industry. Not surprisingly, some of the most important elements of the story have been discarded in favor of largely erroneous or irrelevant elements that fit into a more sensational (and ratings-boosting) framework. Most of what I see or hear in the media these days is a battle between portraying shooter George Zimmerman as a borderline white-supremacist out for blood and victim Trayvon Martin as a predatory, gangsta thug who basically got what was coming to him. True, there is some small amount of talk about whether or not George Zimmerman is guilty of the crime of second degree murder (almost certainly not), and a much, much smaller amount of discussion as to whether or not he is therefore innocent in Martin’s death (again, almost certainly not).
What I don’t see being talked about much is the larger and (with apologies to the Martin family) more important story of the circumstances, created by elected Florida politicians, that probably led to Martin’s death – and will most certainly lead to additional unnecessary violence in the future.
This, of course, is the story the media should be covering.
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It may well be that the abysmal coverage of Martin’s death might have been handled better had it not occurred in the middle of a presidential election year. Or maybe not. In any case, the non-political implications of the shooting were largely discarded in order to cover a story that pitted conservatives against liberals.
Left-wing pundits oft repeated that the shooting took place in a “gated community,” taking advantage of all the images those words conjured in their readers’ heads. Not many bothered to mention that Retreat at Twin Lakes was an ethnically diverse townhouse community, where minorities actually outnumbered whites. NBC, in a desire to deliver a story about a race-obsessed murderer that might drive ratings, actually edited an innocent-sounding section of Zimmerman’s 9-1-1 phone call in a ham-fisted attempt to create one.
If left-wing and mainstream media are deserving of a mid-level circle of Hell for their sensationalizing of the story, then the conservative media certainly has dibs on the ninth. Looking to counter a story that the hated Barak Obama dared to identify as a sad tragedy, they went out of their way to build a case that Martin somehow got what was coming to him. They made much of the fact that the first pictures of the two men involved were a photo given by the parents of the victim and the mug shot released by the police department of the shooter – as if reporters were somehow morally obligated to wait until they could find a pictures of the victim and shooter that were unflattering and more angelic looking, respectively. To compensate, they went out of their way to find photos of Martin that might make him seem intimidating to their largely white audience; the Daily Caller Business Insider went so far as to post potentially intimidating pictures of other black men in their stories of Martin.
Very quickly, the politically competing stories focused on which of the two men was blood-thirsty scum, and which was pure as driven snow. However, though we don’t know for sure exactly what happened on that late February evening (and never will), we do know that the biographies of the two young men involved are more complicated than the media wishes them to be. At the time of the shooting, Martin was serving a suspension from his high school for possession of a pipe with marijuana residue. Perhaps more problematic and less typical for a teenager, however, was his earlier suspension: he’d been caught in a restricted area of the school with a screwdriver and (presumably stolen) jewelry. However, he does not appear to have had any documented incidents of violent behavior in his past.
George Zimmerman, on the other hand, does. In 2005 he was charged with assaulting a police officer; later that year his ex-fiancé sought a restraining order alleging domestic violence. It should be noted that the judge described his actions in the domestic violence case as “run of the mill” and “somewhat mild.” (As outside observers of the 24-hour, sensationalizing media machine, we are left to decide for ourselves where we plant our flags on the moral spectrum of how to interpret “Yeah, he committed domestic violence against a woman he was in a relationship with – but not nearly as severely as others have done.”)
Zimmerman does, in fact, seem to have developed a good reputation in his community as a neighborhood watch coordinator. He is even credited with the capturing of criminals prior to the Martin shooting. The night of the shooting, he “passed” a voice stress test. Despite that, however, his accounting of events is somewhat suspect. According to authorities, his story has not been consistent. In an interview Zimmerman gave with Fox News’s Sean Hannity, he apparently gave a somewhat different accounting of events than he gave to police. In addition, he and his wife have already been caught lying to a judge during his bond hearing.
I’d like to stop here for just one moment. Because if we assume that a 17-year old boy committing no crime should not be shot on his way home from the store and we find that we cannot accurately fit either the shooter or victim into the role of Angel or Devil, it might be worth looking at the culture and conditions – and the State of Florida’s signaling – that allowed events to spiral out of control.
The Sanford Police Department was, of course, highly criticized for releasing Zimmerman and declaring the matter resolved without a thorough investigation; as an explanation, they referenced Florida’s highly-publicized Stand Your Ground Law. The truth of the matter is, when we view their inaction through the lens of Stand Your Ground, it is difficult to justifiably label the police as villains.
Prior to Stand Your Ground there would have been a myriad of circumstances to consider, any of which might have warranted an in-depth investigation: Did Zimmerman know Martin, and had they had previous disputes? Was Zimmerman under the influence of drugs or alcohol? Was Zimmerman more likely to accost or pursue an African American than someone of a different ethnic background? Was he prone to losing his temper, or to being unnecessarily paranoid? Did Zimmerman instigate the initial confrontation – and if so, did he have reasonable cause? Was Zimmerman mostly or even solely responsible for unnecessary escalation once the confrontation occurred? Why had Zimmerman defied both his neighborhood watch training and instructions from the authorities by pursuing a 17-year old that had committed no crime, when he had no data suggesting that a crime had even occurred? Prior to Stand Your Ground being Florida’s law of the land, these were all factors that police could – and should – have very carefully investigated before declaring the killing of a boy that had gone to 7-11 for Skittles a matter that didn’t merit additional scrutiny.
But in a Stand Your Ground world the answers to those questions are largely irrelevant. The law gives Zimmerman the legal right to take a life if he feels his life is threatened; it absolves Zimmerman of any social or legal responsibility not to put himself in a situation where he might take the life of a boy who had done nothing illegal that evening. Further, it absolves the Sanford Police Department of any legal responsibility (or reason) to fully investigate the shooting of an unarmed 17-year old who had committed no crime; in fact, it absolves them of the responsibility of taking any kind of corrective action with his killer.
As I have noted already, cultures often unintentionally and unknowingly signal tacit approval to those who wish to engage in extreme anti-social behavior. Were I Florida’s risk manager back in 2005, I would have advised them that shootings and subsequent political nightmares like the one involving Martin and Zimmerman were the inevitable outcome of Stand Your Ground. Telling your citizenry that, as far as the government is concerned, they have no legal or moral obligation to de-escalate a potentially deadly situation increases the odds of a deadly result. In fact, in a state of almost 20 million people it guarantees that certain types of people will go out of their way to put themselves in such a situation. To believe otherwise is to live in a fantasy world.
Was George Zimmerman such a person? I certainly can’t say for certain one way or another. But his history of “run of the mill” domestic violence and police assault – combined with his disregard for both his neighborhood watch training and instructions from the 9-1-1 dispatcher – suggest that the question is certainly open for debate. If so, then it’s folly to pretend that he missed his state’s message about the acceptability of escalating violence.
And if he wasn’t that guy? If he really is just some poor, well-meaning schmuck in the wrong place at the wrong time? Then a proper and thorough investigation would undoubtedly have put him in a damn better position than he is now: painted as a villain by many and facing a possible prison sentence in order to provide political cover for the same people that passed Stand Your Ground in the first place.
As I said above, the real villains in this case are Florida’s political office holders.
Write us donation checks and vote for us, they cried in creating Stand Your Ground, for without our protection street thugs will come into your living room to kill you and your family, and you will have no legal choice but to let them! Never mind that it was a law designed to needlessly frighten people, and that didn’t actually solve an existing social problem. (You’ll notice prisons are not exactly overflowing with suburban fathers who shot armed murderers and rapists who were coming at them with knives.) So Floridians opened their checkbooks and voted appropriately, and the people who conceived, took credit for, and ran campaigns based in part on their support for Stand Your Ground were richly rewarded.
When the Martin shooting occurred and it became obvious that the ramifications of their law were going to be extremely unpopular, they decided to prosecute Zimmerman to placate the crowd. And they did so knowing full well that, thanks to their legislation, no actual prosecutable crime had been committed. Better for their reelection hopes and donation goals to let a jury take the heat for either acquitting him or ignoring the law and erroneously declaring Zimmerman guilty. I won’t even guess as to how the jury that’s picked ultimately will judge Zimmerman. But I’ll tell you right now that it’s going to be a hung jury – in the sense that they are going to be hung out to dry by Angela Walker, Marco Rubio, Richard Scott, Jeb Bush, and every other Florida pol who either pushed through Stand Your Ground or later pretended that the subsequent sharp increase in “justifiable homicides” was a good thing. They actively enabled this fiasco, and with their prosecution of Zimmerman they are hoping no one notices.
It would be good for the citizens of Florida to recognize this, and to do so as quickly as possible. George Zimmerman may or may not have wished to use Stand Your Ground to create an unnecessary life-or-death situation, but there will be plenty of other anti-social Floridians who will use the law as an excuse to cross that line. Because, like the signaling of the social service agency I spoke with a few years ago, the message of Stand Your Ground may not create monsters – but it will call them to your door.
One of the most important and yet troubling things that risk management has taught me is this: cultures often unintentionally and unknowingly signal tacit approval to people who wish to engage in extreme anti-social behavior.
How depressingly, horribly trenchant.Report
What part of this post wasn’t?! Caregivers abusing people, molestation, dead teenagers… I’m glad I don’t live in Tod’s head.Report
Risk management requires a certain ability to parse depressing data routinely without getting depressed about it.
Disaster preparation is the same.Report
Boy, ain’t that the truth.Report
Not pediatrics, though. No, it’s pretty much zip a dee doo dah all day, every day.Report
I can handle reading tons of literature about massive earthquakes, floods, famine, pandemics… and all the attendant misery that comes with it.
I read a story about a pediatric oncologist and I want to blow my own brains out (metaphorically speaking).
I don’t understand why reports of thousands of children dying of starvation or cholera don’t break me the way a story about one kid dying of cancer does, but it’s just the way my brain works. I’m weird.Report
How do you feel about puppies getting trapped in wells?Report
That it’s surprisingly hard to get them all the way down without hurting them.Report
Did I mention how lovely it is to be reading your stuff again?Report
🙂Report
Arf!
What’s that, Timmy? Lassie’s puppy is trapped in the well? And are you spending way too much time with that dog?Report
I think this is pretty common, actually, and really, really healthy.Report
You realize that most people can’t read about earthquakes and floods and the attendant misery that comes with them, right?
I mean… you realize that we’re abnormal… right?Report
I’m always mystified at the ‘one for all, all for one’ conundrum.
Perhaps the league can enlighten me, here, there must be a whole body of philosophical work on this. So often, we fail at the statistical analysis of what’s best for the greatest number of the individuals, and overreact to what’s best for a particular individual; so we are unresponsive to a thousand kids dying from a simple fix such as water treatment, but outraged when a single kid dies from a complicated fix such as a cure for a rare disease.Report
See: Jason’s charity post for a classic example of the pushback on that.
The part that gets me is that many people can get some sort of vicarious something out of reading the heartbreaking story of the one kid, but avoid stories about the widespread misery (people don’t prepare for disaster largely because they don’t want to think about it.)
There’s a feedback mechanism there that I lack, I guess.Report
Yes, Jason’s post was very much in mind when I wrote the comment, Pat.
More and more, I suspect it’s a shortcoming of not understanding even the basics of statistics, at least in part. I think were I agitating for education reform, ways to include statistical analysis and risk management as core learning goals would make the list. At least today.Report
I’ve said before on the blog, here and there, that we should drop Calculus from the high school mathematics curriculum and put in Statistics and Probability (maybe even before Geometry).
I say this as a bona fide mathematics major.Report
I would introduce children to a rudimentary form of calculus and physics pretty early. I’d start with the experiments of Galileo and teach enough of the calculus to explain what’s really going on.
I’d also teach some basic astronomy. Stats and Prob are awfully useful, I’ll admit. I’d ditch a good deal of Algebra, that much is for sure.
But if I were to introduce children to mathematics at all, it would be on the basis of physics.Report
FYI, most high school classes cover basic statistics in the same class they cover trig — generally labeled “Pre-Calculus” or “Trigonometry”.
Also tends to cover the basics of linear algebra and discrete mathematics. It doesn’t take a full year to teach kids trig, so they cover a lot of math that’s not generally covered in algebra and geometry. Sometimes stats is covered in a second year of algebra.Report
People dont’ prepare for disaster because they’re IDIOTS.
Who buys milk and eggs when a fishin’ hurricane is coming?Report
We tend to reason using one of two types of systems: a “hot,” fast, intuitive system in which emotion plays big a role, and a “cold,” slow, deliberate system, in which we tend to work our way through problems consciously and analytically. There’s some data in the moral judgment literature, for example, that suggests that people make moral judgments differently depending on their level of personal investment. The gist of it is that if we feel personally invested, we tend to make quick, intuitive, perhaps rule-based (there’s some speculation that the rules are hard-wired) judgments, whereas if we feel removed from the situation, we make more deliberate judgements that weigh the consequences.
I suspect that this two-system approach explains this sort of thing pretty well. When we read about a person, or a family, or even a few people or families, particularly with a lot of personal detail, it’s pretty easy to empathize with the plight of the people we’re reading about, to put ourselves into the situation essentially, and to thereby activate the hot system, with all the emotional reasoning that comes with it. When we read about huge numbers of people being affected by unthinkable disasters, it’s much more difficult for us to empathize, and as a result we tend to feel less personally invested. This means that the cold system is going to be doing most of the work when we think about those people and their plights.Report
Thank you, Chris. That makes a lot of sense.
It’s also helpful in terms of thinking how to frame a response; because I can think am I responding to hot or cold; am I responding from hot or cold.Report
Chris, not sure if this is what you are referring to, but another interesting aspect is not just that there are two systems, but that they appear to be mutually exclusive in their use; so while one is engaged, the other cannot be.Report
Glyph, that’s related to what I was talking about, but man, that article is awful. First of all, when we’re thinking “rationally,” the “empathetic parts of our brain” don’t “shut down.” They’re just less active. Second, “rational” is being used fastly and loosely here. We can make rational choices with the “empathetic parts of our brain,” and in fact, our emotions tend to make us reason more rationally (that’s one of their purposes, it seems). But it is true that the two systems don’t work together in parallel, and when one is active the other tends to be less active. What’s more, activating the hot system has a way of overriding whatever decisions the cold system might have already arrived at.
Also, the cold system can be used to rationalize the decisions the hot system made previously.Report
Yeah, io9 is not always great with their science stuff, but that was the most recent place I remembered reading about the phenomenon.
“activating the hot system has a way of overriding whatever decisions the cold system might have already arrived at.
Also, the cold system can be used to rationalize the decisions the hot system made previously.”
Man, we are just screwed going both ways, aren’t we?Report
Glyph, that’s fascinating.
And also leads to thousands of questions about what the triggers for each analytical network are; how we resolve internal conflicts when both are potentially triggered at once (I’m guessing the social network may take precedence), and how we might train ourselves to stop and use both.
This may be totally unfounded, it’s always possible I’m full of shit, and self-observation is prone to trickery, but: I’ve a sense that my childhood abuse builds toward internal negotiation between what Chris labeled hot and cold. Being stalked by a pedophile, I wanted to respond from the social network (using the terms from your link), but to maintain sanity and make sense of it, I needed to turn to the analytical network. I’ve long had a sense it was a bit easier for me to step back and fourth — to navigate ambiguous situations — then the norm.
I have much to ponder, now. More reading, please, if anyone has some.Report
And of course while I wrote, Chris added value beyond measure.
Sweet.Report
Zic and Glpyh, coincidentally, after this little exchange, I got an email alert with this paper in it:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1467-9221.2012.00937.x/abstract
Here’s the abstract:
We offer a theory of motivated political reasoning based on the claim that the feelings aroused in the initial stages of processing sociopolitical information inevitably color all phases of the evaluation process. When a citizen is called on to express a judgment, the considerations that enter into conscious rumination will be biased by the valence of initial affect. This article reports the results of two experiments that test our affective contagion hypothesis—unnoticed affective cues influence the retrieval and construction of conscious considerations in the direction of affective congruence. We then test whether these affectively congruent considerations influence subsequently reported policy evaluations, which we call affective mediation. In short, the considerations that come consciously to mind to inform and to support the attitude construction process are biased systematically by the feelings that are aroused in the earliest stages of processing. This underlying affective bias in processing drives motivated reasoning and rationalization in political thinking.Report
Chris, in a similar vein I really wanted at one point to discuss the furor that has occurred over the different photos that emerged over the course of this case (Martin as young skiing “angel” vs. Martin as budding teen “thug”; Zimmerman as “real beefy dude with no visible injuries” vs. Zimmerman as “somewhat skinnier dude who looks like he got the snot beat out of him” – all scare-quoted preceding picture captions meant for illustrative purposes only, so you’d know approximately which pics I mean) and how that relates to emotional “priming” and the daisy-chaining associations we then make – but there was just no way to discuss it in that climate.
See this comment for some idea of where I wanted to go.
Because this cognitive stuff plays a factor all over the place – on why Zimmerman was following Martin in the first place; on the initial media narratives that got formed; in how angry people got when those narratives were shifted or challenged at all (because people feel like they were, or are, being lied to); etc. And this can all happen totally independent of racial factors (though depending on the case these factors obviously can have their own roles to play too).
Maybe when all this dies down a bit you could do a guest post on this kind of stuff, you are probably way more qualified than I.Report
Glyph and Chris, I do hope you’ll follow through with a post. I’d be most grateful.
I just wrote this post on James’ Taxpayer-Directed Welfare post, with this very much in mind; describing something from the hot, and how it warps the cold.
Chris, thank you for the link.Report
On the plus side, there is pretty music in here.Report
Christmas music, I hope!
I admire your skill in avoiding getting bogged down in the “all humans are scum” feeling that comes from analyzing situations like these.Report
“Safety tends to happen at slow speed” is something I read somewhere. It struck me as wise.Report
tell that to everyone in a parking lot. *eyeroll* Safety tends to happen when you Keep Your Eyes Open and on the Road.Report
Tod, do you have link for the DC photos? I can’t seem to find them.Report
Wrong blog. Fixed.
Thanks.Report
Thank you, Tod.Report
This is right, but stand your ground is only part of the story here. The real issue is the presence of the gun itself. If both men had been unarmed, there almost certainly would have been no confrontation at all, or if there was it would have remained a case of assault at worst. A society where it’s acceptable to carry a gun around your neighborhood is also sending the signal that guns are an OK way to resolve conflicts, which greatly increases the risk that they’ll end violently.Report
See my response to Kazzy, below.Report
Really?
“A society where it’s acceptable to carry a gun around your neighborhood is also sending the signal that guns are an OK way to resolve conflicts, which greatly increases the risk that they’ll end violently.”
Get real. Maybe when the gov’t assigns me a cop to provide personal protection 24 hours a day. Until then, I want to be able to protect myself. Despite the fact that gun control clearly doesn’t work liberals still keep pushing it.
Martin didn’t have to assault Zimm and get himself shot. TM made that choice and paid the price for it, too bad.Report
Yes, and Zimmerman didn’t have to jump to the conclusion that Martin was a criminal just because he was walking through the townhouse complex and Zimmerman didn’t know who he was. The (pretty obvious) point Dan was making is that if you’re going to get into the habit of toting a gun around as a normal procedure then pretty soon you’re going to see yourself living in a dangerous place where everyone is a potential attacker. It becomes easy to see everything through one filter only. And if having a gun makes you feel more in control and protected, your interactions with others could escalate very rapidly into the unforeseeable and tragic.
And Martin “didn’t get himself shot” – Zimmerman pulled the trigger. Taking refuge in the passive voice doesn’t disguise that.Report
“And Martin “didn’t get himself shot” – Zimmerman pulled the trigger. Taking refuge in the passive voice doesn’t disguise that.”
Zimm only pulled the trigger when TM beating. If you do something like then you do “get yourself shot.”
“The (pretty obvious) point Dan was making is that if you’re going to get into the habit of toting a gun around as a normal procedure then pretty soon you’re going to see yourself living in a dangerous place where everyone is a potential attacker.”
Sorry, the fact is that you can be attacked anywhere. Not too long ago a guy got killed by a carjacker in the Wal Mart parking lot in my city. You don’t expect to have a car accident or a storm destroy your house and yet you have insurance for both.Report
You’re just repeating yourself.
Zimmerman was being beaten because he’d confronted a stranger who was doing nothing to him. If you’re going to go around at night confronting people who weren’t bothering you personally you should anticipate that it might be within the realm of the possible that you’re eventually going to get bopped in the nose for it.
Or if a total stranger walked up to you and demanded that you account for your actions on a public thoroughfare would you just stand there and politely answer him? Seriously? Somehow I doubt it.Report
I might not be polite but I would try to not let it escalate into violence b/c you should anticipate that it might be within the realm of the possible that you’re eventually going to get yourself shot for bopping other people in the nose.Report
Shoot or be shot. That’s some quality of life you got there.Report
“Shoot or be shot. That’s some quality of life you got there.”
Really? How about this story, Teens Ask for Smoke, Kill Woman When She Replies “Get a Job”: Cops
http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Teens-Ask-for-Smoke-Kill-Woman-When-She-Replies-Get-a-Job-182999041.html?dr
This is the real world not the fantasy world you seem to live in.Report
Somehow I’ve managed to walk around for over 4 decades without getting shot or murdered or mugged or robbed. That’s my reality and I’m quite happy with it. Please don’t visit.Report
DRS:
Good for you, I sincerely hope you are never the victim of crime, however, not everyone is so lucky. Just remember that just b/c it hasn’t happened to you in four decades doesn’t mean it couldn’t happen to you when you least expect it.
I wonder if that woman in the story thought should would be killed that day?Report
I’m working on five.
It’s truly amazing how afeared some people are. Because we get a handful of stories every day about something bad happening to someone. Too bad we don’t get BREAKING NEWS: Millions upon millions of people got home safely today. And yesterday. And the day before that.Report
Zic:
As many liberals do you mistake being afraid with the desire to be prepared. I learned in the Boy Scouts to “Be Prepared.” That doesn’t mean just assuming that I will get home safe b/c I did yesterday or the day before that. Don’t forget that some of those who assumed they would get home safely didn’t, like the woman in the story. If you really believe that nothing bad will happen to you tomorrow, then you really should go out and cancel all of your insurance policies.Report
No Scott, I suspect you are a bonafide fraidycat; need your gun to feel safe, or absolutely unable to process statistics.
Me? I insist on my right to be free. That means talking a walk at midnight by myself if I want. I’d rather shoulder the risk then be trapped by fear.
But I’ve looked into the faces of monsters who mean me harm. Being prepared is being prepared for how you’ll respond when you think the monster appears, and that’s a mental thing. Because most often, you don’t have that gun or the time to pull it. And all too often, the monster’s only a shadow, and if you do have that gun and use it, you’re the monster.Report
Zic:
Yes, you sure have me pegged with your cereal box degree in pop psychology. I desperately need to carry my .44 magnum to make up for my tiny penis. I feel so much better for admitting that, maybe my healing can now begin and I ‘ll become a good liberal.Report
Scott, using ‘liberal’ as an insult is so last century.Report
“I learned in the Boy Scouts to “Be Prepared.””
Was that before or after they taught you to hate gays?Report
What, exactly, makes that the real world?
Oh wait… I forgot we declared you a troll a while back. Never mind.Report
You seem awfully certain of Zimmerman’s position that Martin, somebody with no history of violence, attacked him out of nowhere for no apparent reason in an attempt to kill him. If that’s true, I’m totally with you that Zimmerman should be allowed to do whatever he had to do to protect himself. I just don’t happen to find the story very credible given the people and the circumstances.
I find it much easier to believe that the guy with a cop complex and an actual history of violent behavior who was actively pursuing the other guy probably started it. It’s easy to go from following somebody to deciding to head him off and keep him from leaving the scene, especially when you think you’re in the right and you’re armed. All it takes is grabbing somebody’s shirt when they try to get away and you have a potentially violent situation on your hands.Report
If the evidence about Martin being on top of Zimm and beating him is correct and Zimm was in fear of his life, then Zimm will not be criminally culpable for the shooting. This is what folks don’t seem to understand, it won’t matter what transpired before that, who may have been the person that started it, etc.Report
Yeah, that’s actually the whole point.Report
I disagree. While possibly not legally culpable, what matters before DOES (to me) and OUGHT to matter. Otherwise, what stops me from picking a fight with someone I hate, deliberately falling into a compromised position, and shooting them when pounced upon?
Who threw the first punch absolutely does matter.Report
Ought to, yes.. but part of SYG is that you have no legal responsibility to de-escalate.
I believe that Scott is in fact right – that you can be a dick to someone, push them into a fight, actively work to escalate it, and – if you get yourself into a situation where you’re getting your ass kicked – pop the guy.
Where Scott and I disagree, obviously, is that only one of us thinks this is totally awesome.Report
Tod:
No I don’t think that scenario is “awesome.” I just don’t think you should have to get beaten up or killed to satisfy that sensibilities of silly liberals like Kazzy.Report
But you obviously think, per your last comment, that you should be able to pick a fight with someone and – if you find yourself losing – kill them, and that doing so should be seen as perfectly acceptable:
If the evidence about Martin being on top of Zimm and beating him is correct and Zimm was in fear of his life, then Zimm will not be criminally culpable for the shooting. This is what folks don’t seem to understand, it won’t matter what transpired before that, who may have been the person that started it, etc.
Did I misunderstand your meaning somehow?Report
Tod:
Simply acknowledging legal realities doesn’t mean that I think something is “awesome.” Yes, I think it is necessary to have the legal right to defend oneself b/c of the realities of the world we live in.Report
Tod, could you point out more precisely where the statutes say that if you’re fearing for your life you can “stand your ground”? I’ve read what I thought were the relevant sections and I don’t recall them saying anything about the use of force in response to a legitimate threat of violence. I think Burt touched on this earlier this morning, but standard self-defense covers the use of lethal force in response to an imminent threat to ones own life.
More importantly, the statutes were pretty clear that in saying that some basic conditions had to be met for the law to apply: that the person had a right to be where they were, they hadn’t engaged in any illegal activity, and they had to have a legitimate reason to think that a felony had been, or was about to be committed. None of those conditions apply in the Trayvon/Zimmerman scneario, it seems to me.
But, I could be – most likely am – wrong about this.Report
So a more accurate way to put it, then, might simply be that where we disagree is that one of us think you should be able to start a fight with a stranger and then – if you find yourself losing – kill the person you picked a fight with.
Would that be more accurate?Report
Scott, You and Tod are focusing on different things here. Tod is arguing that SYG laws at least tacitly permit someone to start a fight and then kill that person if they respond to the perceived threat. You’re saying that people ought to have the right to defend themselves.
I think you both agree that people in fact do have the legal right to defend themselves, independently of whether the SYG applies or not. Legitimate self-defense is already legislated.
So what Tod is arguing (at least, in this context, it seems to me) is that SYG constitutes an unnecessary extension of normal self-defense to cover a situation where a person starts a fight, and can then legally kill the person they provoked. You’re saying people should be able to kill anyone who threatens their life.
There’s a lot of room in there for disagreement, no?Report
Still –
That might well be what advocates of the law wish to be the case. However, the State of Florida’s own examination found the actual wording to be ambiguous and confusing. Adding to the confusion is that in many cases – including the Martin case – there is no evidence to determine who started a fight. And this has consequences that are more than theoretical.
For example, the law is currently being used to acquit people who have killed others in bad drug deals. Also, as I linked to in the original piece, justifiable homicide rates have tripled since SYG was passed. And in many cases (including the Martin case) the State’s examiners have found that police do not bother to investigate these cases.
Report
Is your view that DAs and PDs are taking a deliberately broad reading of the statutes (for whatever reason), or that there is in fact a real indeterminacy in the language of the laws?Report
To break this down a little bit more, I, personally, am of the opinion that if someone has broken into your house, you have the Right to shoot them. You don’t know why they’re there, you don’t know if they are there to kill or rape you, if someone comes at you, you should be able to shoot them without having to deal with arguments like “but what if the robber was just looking for food to feed his toddler?” or the like.
Now, whether or not you personally agree with that argument, I hope that you see how someone could hold it in good faith.
Now, from there, it’s not *TOO* hard to get to the carjacking scenario. If someone is carjacking you, should you have the right to shoot them?
Surely you might be able to see how someone else could see the argument “no person’s life is worth a car, just give the car up and trust the police that you’ll get it back safe and sound… and even if it’s wrecked, at least you’re alive” as being insufficient.
Well, the SYG laws, as far as I understand, were written to deal with the carjacking phenomenon from a while back. People were very upset that, after a carjacker was shot, the driver was given a court case. “He should have been given a medal!”, some said.
Anyway, while I do tend to think that the SYG laws are a bad idea insofar as they can create a situation where two people could be standing their ground against each other (see this very case right here!), I do tend to think that there is a problem with law enforcement if self-defense is not seen as a fairly fundamental right.
I suspect that those who think that Trayvon was justified (to some degree, anyway) in kicking Zimmerman’s ass are in agreement on that point.Report
Tod:
In general I don’t believe that folks should be allowed to use the law to protect themselves when doing wrong. I would hope that laws are carefully crafted to stop such a thing and that the justice system be able to see thru such ploys. I guess the final question is whether we as a society will tolerate the few times folks misuse the laws to protect the majority of those who use the protections of our laws for their intended purpose.
All of that aside, there is no proof that Zimm started this fight in order to kill Martin. So all this talk about folks starting fights to kill others seems rather hypothetical. Is there any evidence that this is even a real problem or is it just liberal fear mongering?Report
Scott,
Your use of the word liberal as a pejorative is indicative of just how unserious you are.Report
There may never be evidence that this is a real problem as long as the only other person who might be a witness ends up dead.
I don’t think anybody here is suggesting that the problem is people starting fights with the express intent of getting away with premeditated murder. I don’t think that Zimmerman started a fight with Martin in order to have an excuse to kill him or even went into the situation expecting to shoot.
I do think that Zimmerman likely started a fight because he was a macho blowhard on a power trip. I also think that people like him are more likely to have the confidence to start fights when they’re armed, and that encouraging a culture of vigilantism is dangerous because it attracts exactly the sorts of people you wouldn’t want as vigilantes.
We all have a responsibility to avoid causing or escalating violent situations whenever possible. I’d argue that when you’re armed, you have an even greater responsibility to avoid looking for trouble. While I don’t think that Zimmerman will end up on the wrong side of the law here, I’m far from convinced that he lived up to his responsibilities as somebody who carries a gun in public.Report
All of that aside, there is no proof that Zimm started this fight in order to kill Martin.
No one – least of all Tod – is arguing that point. In fact, if a liberal interpretation of SYG in Florida holds, then Martin’s intent is actually irrelevant. All that matters from a legal pov is whether he had a legitimate right to stand his ground (not retreat) when confronted with a forcible felony.
{{Heh. I think I just answered my own question about the ambiguity in the law.}}Report
Kazzy:
You keep talking about ought, ought ought versus what is, is, is. That is your fantasy world.Report
You’re talking about what’s not… you act as if people routinely get shot for denying strangers cigarettes.Report
Something tells me Scott doesn’t spend much time in places where people might ask strangers for cigarettes.
(I was asked for a cigarette once today, probably 5 or 6 times in the last week. I haven’t been shot once in that period.)Report
Clearly you live in a fantasy world.Report
Kazzy:
Sadly, folks get killed all the time over little if nothing, a few dollars, an ounce of weed, a perceived insult, etc. You can argue that it is rare but even if true those folks are still dead.Report
OK, Scott is cracking me up at this point.
I picture him driving really fast through the “bad” neighborhoods, telling his wife and kids not to look them in the eyes and they’ll be OK. “Just… don’t… look them in the eyes.”Report
Scott,
Sense of scale.
You know what else happens all the time? Maybe even often as someone gets killed over a few dollars? People *don’t* get killed.Report
Does this woman live in a fantasy world?
Elderly woman attacked in NYC elevator.
http://www.greenwichtime.com/news/article/Elderly-woman-attacked-in-NYC-elevator-4107688.phpReport
No, she lives in the real world. A real world where SOMETIMES people die but ALMOST ALL THE TIME they don’t.Report
You know what else happens all the time? Maybe even often as someone gets killed over a few dollars? People *don’t* get killed.
In my own case – can’t speak for others – I haven’t been killed at least five or six times this week….Report
Kazzy:
Next you are going to tell me that her chance of being attacked was very small, so we don’t need to worry about it happening to us. You are welcome to have the victim mindset. Funny thing, everyone gets told that their chance of wining the lottery is so small yet someone always wins.Report
Scott, ironically, by focusing on the extremely remote possibility that you will ever be the victim of such a crime, much less a crime in which you would be able to defend yourself with a gun, you are the one who’s adopting a victim mindset.
Me, I live life, realizing that of course there’s a possibility I could be shot, or be in a car accident, or be struck by mysterious objects falling out of the sky, but that if I go around worrying about that all of the time, I’ve already lost.
(p.s. Read that book.)Report
Funny thing, everyone gets told that their chance of wining the lottery is so small yet someone always wins.
Doesn’t citing the lottery undermine your entire argument?Report
Still,
I was actually just about to cite the lottery as an example in the flaw in Scott’s logic.
Obvioustroll is obvious.Report
Kazzy, I was, too. I settled for no comprehension of statistics. Same thing. Really do believe we should be doing a better job of educating the masses on that topic (statistics), but sense so much of school funding comes from lotto sales — the tax on the stupid who don’t believe in taxes for education — that would be self defeating.Report
agh, migraine stupid, here. Since, not sense. nonsense. scent of a big win if you want my two cents, because it smells like a way to part a fool and her money on a gun to defend her right to walk to the convenience store for lotto tickets on the night of a big prize.Report
Kazzy:
You seem to ignore that fact that a small chance doesn’t mean no chance. You can assume that nothing will happen to you tomorrow b/c there is only a low chance but why be foolish? I’m sure the folks that got killed in the mall today didn’t think anything would happen to them so why be prepared for it? Nothing happened at the mall yesterday, but that has no bearing on what may happen today but Kazzy says don’t worry.
http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamascounty/index.ssf/2012/12/clackamas_town_center_shooting.htmlReport
And you forget that a small chance means a small chance.
Let’s be generous and assume I have a 1% chance of dying tomorrow at the hands of an assailant and a 99% chance of not. How much of my energy should I devote to that 1% chance, either in preparing for it, worrying about it, or attempting to prevent it?
Again, no one is denying that horrible things might happen. What I’m arguing is that the guaranteed loss associated with overly concerning one’s self with unlikely scenarios eventually outweighs whatever gain might come from being prepared, which is still no guarantee that the horrible thing winds up any less horrible.Report
Kazzy, the googlefu of looking this up is beyond me right now, but I do recall that the vast majority of gun deaths happen at the hands of someone the victim knows, not random strangers.
So in a sense, Scott’s prepared to kill someone who he’s familiar with, not to protect himself from some unknown assailant.
Please feel free to correct me if my recalled knowledge is incorrect.Report
Scott has created a world in which he is constantly a potential victim. I feel genuinely bad for him.Report
I feel bad for any potential wife (or husband) and children.
Living with a paranoid person is difficult.Report
As much as I love disagreeing with people and being morally superior to them (I do it all day, as a matter of fact), can we *NOT* speculate on their home lives?
Hay-Zeus, people.Report
/hangs head in shame.Report
Your thesis lends some creedence to Doug Casey’s admittedly self-serving rant about the TSA.Report
Tod, excellent post.
I’m not saying that bad management makes monsters of good people that are already in the organization. I’m saying that once bad management is implemented it calls the monsters to the door. People who live to cross certain lines go out of their way to identify employers they believe will allow them to do so, or at least look the other way for a while.
I wanted to unpack this a bit, because it reveals important tensions at work. Let’s start with the term ‘bad management.’ It’s easy to read that and have all these stereotypes of bungling incompetence. But there’s another dynamic at play here — bad management often comes from good people with good intention who lack the capacity to question themselves. They live comforted in the knowledge they’re good, they intend good, and so assume their actions are good and result in good. An example might be the devout parents of a gay child, with all the attending complications of emotional abuse, denial, and efforts to ‘fix’ the child, resulting in good people doing great evil. I think much of what rises to the level of bad management stems from these types of conundrums.
(An aside, I find it endlessly amusing that good intentions gone astray is often a charge conservatives lay at liberal feet, but rarely apply to their own workings.)
Then we’ve the problem of predators who seek out inept goodness to create opportunity for their predatory behavior. Certainly this is exactly the situation I lived in as a child; a good but stressed and overworked mother, seeking what supports she could to help her family survive, and a pedophile looking for victims.
When we bring the discussion to pedophilia; to the Sanduskys of the world, a common response is, “Are we supposed to fear everyone who works with children?” And that, in the context you’ve laid out here, is helpful. Because the answer is yes. Or more precisely, we’ld be better at managing the risk if we had a better method of examining our trust, our goodness, our own actions in a way that made it habit; a willingness to question our assumptions and realign our actions when we see the weaknesses that let the predators have fertile ground.
While I do not believe in God, I can see why the binary battle of God vs. Devil for our immortal souls is a convenient way to help sort this out. But religion also seems subject to recursive failings of bad management; it’s easy to write those predators off as losing that war for heavenly grace. Yet unless the predator is totally sociopathic and incapable of empathy, her or she is also good. He does good things, she love others.
Perhaps it’s wisest to resist the urge to view Martin and Zimmerman each as either good or bad, but to instead view each as flawed and a mixture of good and bad. And while I personally feel Zimmerman forfeited his right to freedom, I think you’re correct. The greater trail we need to hold is a review of the Stand Your Ground laws in light of bad management, and what those laws do to free the potential predator in each of us.
I would see humans work toward a better frame of work management, a habit of reconsidering, challenging assumptions, questioning; I’d have that be the norm; the tradition. Radical.Report
As they say, true villains rarely see themselves as evil in the “Classic Evil” sense, but rather as good people making tough decisions in order to further their own ideal of good.Report
Yeah, the guys who actually say they’re evil generally aren’t.
“But… I drive people insane for my own amusement…!”
… poseur.Report
I think that’s often partially true; certainly that people doing evil have a capacity to rationalize what they do. But if they’re stretching too far to rationalize, most people also know they’re doing evil.
I’m talking on the smaller evils; where good actions lead to evil outcomes for lack of introspection.Report
Excellent as always Tod. A few quick thoughts:
People rarely get into serious trouble for what they do. They much more often get into trouble for lying about it afterwards. If he was honestly acting in self-defense, Zimmerman had no need to lie either to the judge or the media. If they were exclusively focused on arranging an acquittal, Zimmerman’s attorneys would have imposed rule one on their client. Zimmerman had nothing to gain from going on even the putatively friendly Sean Hannity show, and his lawyers ought to have known that beforehand.
Florida Statutes, Chapter 776 is not written quite like that. It speaks to the “reasonable belief” of the person receiving physical force at the hands of another. Florida’s Legislature then laboriously and awkwardly attempts to pre-define situations in which a belief in the necessity of force is reasonable. A prime emotional motive behind the law is the notion — based on urban myths founded on ill-understood reasoning — that the law imposes a duty on homeowners to tolerate burglars in their homes and even make their homes safe for burglars. The law does not require, and never did require, any such thing. I’ve challenged my business law students at both the graduate and undergraduate level for nearly a decade now to find me a link to a newspaper report about a burglar who was hurt during a home invasion, and subsequently sued a homeowner for damages and won. No one has yet done it. But because someone mistakenly believed that such an injustice is a real problem, the Florida Legislature undertook to solve it, in atomized detail.
The mistake that the Florida Legislature made in drafting such an elaborate SYG law was in some cocktail of not understanding what the use of the word “reasonable” in a statute makes a court do, and not having faith that a jury would be able to do it appropriately in a given case. The Legislature tried to be the jury in advance of even hearing the facts of a particular case, instead of letting a jury decide on a case-by-case basis what would have been reasonable under the circumstances of a particular case, which is what the use of a word like “reasonable” signals to judges and lawyers ought to happen.
This is part of the root of why the direction that SYG encourages the culture to grow is so pernicious. In a comment thread over at Will and my sub-blog, multiple commenters like this one pointed out the widespread existence of people who at least claim that if they encounter even a non-violent criminal, they would shoot to kill, perhaps arrange the scene of the evidence to suggest a particular reconstruction of events, and afterwards state that they were subjectively in fear for their lives to support a claim of self-defense. In other words, people who brag that should they encounter a petty, non-violent criminal, they have already formed a plan to murder him,* and then alter evidence favorably to themselves and lie about it to law enforcement afterwards,** claiming superior enough intelligence to succeed and affecting a high degree of moral justification for doing so. The clunky SYG law provides rich fertilizer in which such an attitude, already germinating within the lizard brains of those who worry about crime, can take root and bloom into reality.
As you correctly point out, Florida’s “…prisons are not exactly overflowing with suburban fathers who shot armed murderers and rapists who were coming at them with knives.” That’s because both juries and prosecutors already knew, before SYG was enacted, that the use of force in a situation like that would be reasonable. In enacting SYG, the Legislature tried to re-solve a problem that already had a great solution. It involved, and still does involve, asking twelve ordinary people if they think the use of force in a given situation was reasonable.
You do your work, Legislature, and let the courts do theirs. You’ll find that the system works just fine. I think that concept is also supposed to be a part of our culture, too.
* Note that by planning the act of killing beforehand, the murder is typically elevated to first-degree murder.
** Note that this is an additional and qualitatively different crime usually called “obstruction of justice” and/or “perjury.” And now notice how those who would invoke the law to buttress their moral claim have willingly made themselves criminals in the furtherance of their private morality.Report
People rarely get into serious trouble for what they do. They much more often get into trouble for lying about it afterwards.
+1Report
“Zimmerman had nothing to gain from going on even the putatively friendly Sean Hannity show, and his lawyers ought to have known that beforehand.”
IIRC the lawyer(s) on the case quit when he went on the show against his/her/their advice.Report
Good for them! That was the right call.Report
Burt, this is not to alter your fundamental point – and Tod, excellent piece as usual, containing much of the nuance that is sorely missing from many discussions on this topic – but I do want to focus on one aspect, since my comment is being referenced by Burt.
“people who brag that should they encounter a petty, non-violent criminal, they have already formed a plan to murder him,*”
I will not speak to the legal definition here of “murder” but of a moral one, so Burt, please allow me a bit of tiny slack as I try to explain the person to whom I made reference’s position (and note that I also find aspects of it troubling, while I also reluctantly understand some bits of it).
The person to which I was referring does not necessarily “plan to murder” a person; their concern is in the case of a mistake being made, and their presumption is that someone in their house, uninvited, has already demonstrated a presumed intent to harm; and so any moral fault for bodily injury, falls entirely on them.
Example: I am awakened in the middle of the night to downstairs noises; I come down the stairs with my pistol, sleep-blurred yet on adrenal high-alert, and see a human shape silhouetted against a now-open window. I cock the pistol and tell the person to freeze; they raise their hand, in which I see an oblong object; I fire, killing them dead.
I reach the bottom of the stairs and turn on the light; the object was the screwdriver this petty junkie used to jimmy the window; they were raising their hand in surrender, but forgot they still had it in their hand.
Even leaving aside any racial dynamics, their worry is that they will be unfairly persecuted/prosecuted for what they see as an honest mistake; they believe that the very act of violating a man’s “castle” is de facto an aggressive act for which all moral (and therefore legal), consequences should fall on the shooting victim.
I do not condone these actions, nor perjury/fraud; but I do sympathize a bit with the idea that if someone is in my house uninvited, and I encounter them in a darkened room with my wits not completely about me, I should be given a *lot* of legal leeway in how I handle that situation. Any cornered animal may react viciously and violently to protect their den and family.
Their worry that they would not be given this leeway may be, as you say, unjustified; but the fear that they could lose everything for an honest mistake (prompted by what they see as the de facto aggression of another) terrifies them to a degree that they have decided that this would be their contingent action. They never intend to spend years of their life on trial/in jail/under public scrutiny for something that was (in their view) not their fault at all.
Again, I don’t think this changes your or Tod’s essential points, but I thought I should clarify.Report
Of course I sympathize with a person such as you describe too. And so will a jury, making an acquittal substantially likely. And in all likelihood, so will a prosecutor, making the likelihood of a prosecution happening in the first place unlikely as well.
As for “murder,” I am using the legal definition: the intentional killing of a human being with malice aforethought. Why is it murder to kill a nonviolent burglar? Because the question postulates that he is nonviolent and, by implication, that he is known to be nonviolent. In your hypo that fact is not known and assuming violent intent is reasonable.
We don’t need a legislature to tell us that, is (part of) what I’m saying.Report
Gotcha. I also mentioned in one of my initial comments on this subject that in college, I had some blind-drunk friends attempt to “break into” an apartment that was not theirs upon returning from the bar (a case of “mistaken apartment identity”, in one of those bland faceless complexes that everyone lives in when they are broke).
Had they gotten a door or window open and gotten themselves shot by the occupant, that would’ve been tragic; but absent clear malice or negligence on the part of the occupant, I’d see the fault as wholly on my friends’ side.Report
I know a lot of gun owners. I know people who sell guns for a living, or work or own pawn shops with a hefty chunk of their trade being guns.
Heck, I managed to tear a chunk out of my thumb a few weeks ago because I was learning to shoot an automatic (hint: Don’t use a two-handed grip suitable for a revolver. That slide will eat your off-hand thumb) and, well, bad grip.
People own guns for lots of reasons. Most of the ones I know for hunting with a minority for target shooting. (Call it Zen Archery, but much louder).
But there’s one class of gun owners that worry me. They’re the dangerous ones. They buy a gun for ‘self-defense’, but not out of fear. But out of hope. They’re eager to use it. Desperate for it. They buy it and fantasize about getting to use it, about showing some thug, some criminal, that they messed with the wrong person.
Those guys? When they talk about crime, about self-defense, you get the deep impression they’re almost angry that no one has attacked THEM yet. Those guys are why SYG laws are bad, bad law.
Because you’ve removed the last thing standing between them and a massive overreaction, because now they don’t even worry about going to jail. (They do love to talk about how good, law-abiding Americans went to jail for ‘just defending themselves’. True or false, such a belief keeps them from acting unless out of true need. Jail is better than death, hmm? And given that it’s pretty darn rare for an actual case of self-defense to end up in jail, it works out well for them).Report
Q.E.D.Report
I thought the point of the law was to tie the hands of an over-zealous prosecutor, such that a person who kills in “honest” self-defense should not be traumatized a second time by a DA with an axe to grind (re: Marissa Alexander)?Report
Is this really a problem? For Ms. Alexander, perhaps it is. But on a systemic level, does this sort of thing happen all that much?Report
Particularly, prosecutor over-zealousness in the prosecution of self-defense murder cases may not be so much of an issue; however, prosecutorial misconduct is a fairly pervasive issue.
Here’s a story of one prominent locally for some time. It was the OJ Simpson thing on a smaller scale: high-profile murder, botched investigation, sloppy prosecutor.
My preferred solution would be to amend the civil rights acts providing for a cause of action in 42 USC 1981 et seq., with two short sentences to abolish all common law immunities in reference to that chapter.
Attorney-client privilege is statutorily abolished in 18 USC 1512(f) for purposes of certain Chapter 73 offenses. I don’t see why they couldn’t do it to immunity privileges, which are doctrinal rather than statutory.
Congress tried that twice before, first in the Civil Rights Act of 1866, and then again with the Hobbs Act; but both times, it didn’t take the courts very long to determine that the wording of the statute, and perhaps especially in cases where it was written specifically to apply to them, didn’t really apply to them after all.
Basically, as I understand it, the argument is that prosecutors should be permitted to perform illegal acts in the course of their ordinary duties, else prosecutors would be unnecessarily constrained in the course of their ordinary duties to the extent that they would no longer be able to perform illegal acts.Report
Basically, as I understand it, the argument is that prosecutors should be permitted to perform illegal acts in the course of their ordinary duties, else prosecutors would be unnecessarily constrained in the course of their ordinary duties to the extent that they would no longer be able to perform illegal acts.
If that’s a correct analysis, I need to sit in a quiet place for a while.Report
Yes, that’s a fairly accurate assessment of the argument.
The argument is made in terms of being “free from suit” or “free from fear of suit;” but the suit they’re talking about is the one where you’ve just violated someone’s rights secured by the US Constitution.
It’s reasonably justifiable in certain circumstances.
Suppose there is a state law that a prosecutor prosecutes someone for, and then the state law is found to be unconstitutional. Without that prosecutorial immunity, the prosecutors would be subject to suit (to some extent).
Too often, it’s used to justify departmental deficiencies.
It seems like reckless indifference would reduce the level of immunity.Report
What Will said.
IMHO, maybe what the SYG law should do is remove or reduce the duty to retreat, & expand the affirmative defense self-defense provides a bit. Make it so that any technical violations of the law committed during the act of self-defense are not indictable. For instance, I believe in WA state, if you have to use a gun to defend yourself, & you accidentally hit an innocent bystander, the DA has to be able to show you were grossly negligent (e.g. you were running away and shooting over your shoulder).
Ms. Alexander was punished not for defending herself, but for firing a warning shot. This is actually a common way for DAs to go after people who defend themselves with guns (the other is to question why the defender did not fire a warning shot). (PS I’ve read different accounts of what happened with Ms. Alexander, & I honestly don’t know if she was guilty of something real, or the victim of an over-zealous prosecutor).
Such laws create a nasty catch-22, in that a person may use lethal force to stop an attack, but may not do anything short of using lethal force to cause the attack to abort. Most people do not want to kill or maim another, even in self-defense. Their instinct is to try and scare off their attacker first. Too bad in most jurisdictions, warning shots are illegal (hell, in some, brandishing is illegal).
Now you may be right, that such prosecutions are few & far between, but damn they make for good stories, and TV, and people read & see such things & fear that should they find themselves fighting for their lives, & they don’t do it exactly right, they’ll face a trial. Such things frighten people, make them do stupid things, like lobby for badly written laws.Report
If you go out into the night with a gun after a person who doesn’t know you exist, come back with that person dead by your gun, and that person proves to have been unarmed, at that point the presumption in the law ought to fall back on you to demonstrate by at least a preponderance of the evidence that you did in fact reasonably believe you needed to shoot the person to save your own life or avoid grievous (not just serious) bodily harm at his hands in order not to be guilty of at least 2nd degree murder, manslaughter, or a like crime. The law should not say that the prosecutor must show that there can no reasonable doubt that you didn’t reasonably believe this otherwise you will be guilty of no crime. I may be mistaken that this is what the law is (with or without a SYG regime), but that is what I understand Burt to be saying it is.
I don’t have worked out all the general variables that lead me to that view yet. I’m trying to separate the elements of this situation from other hypotheticals, such as one that occurred in the light of day where there could be witnesses; or a situation in which neither party was looking to encounter the other before the confrontation that ended violently began; etc. But the moral and practical intuition (which to me seems the basis for much of the argumentation in favor of SYG laws and liberal gun control regimes – basically the pro-gun self-defense position) to me is clear. If, while packing heat, you initiate contact with someone on neutral, public ground who turns out to be unarmed, and end up killing them in view of no witnesses, then you should be prepared to be put in prison for along time if it can be proved you did physically kill them, unless you can show that you feared for your life (etc.). You can’t be going around initiating encounters away from witnesses with people who were minding their own business before you approached them that end with your using your gun to kill them and then enjoy a 95% presumption (my understanding of what a lack of reasonable doubt means) in favor of your reasonableness in so doing (because of a lack of (good) enough witnesses to the event).
I’m in favor of the tilt for defendants in the criminal justice system – the high bar to conviction. But this is too much. In my view, it is a high bar just to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you physically killed someone where there were no witness to testify to what happened. If it can also be proved that you sought out for confrontation that person when he showed no interest in making contact with you, then in my view an additional no-reasonable-doubt standard for showing that the use of force that ensued was not taken in reasonable fear of your life is simply unrealistic, and we have effectively legalized a form of predatory killing properly executed.
If you can be shown beyond a reasonable doubt to have taken your gun and killed people you sought out for confrontation, then you need to show you were reasonable in doing so. You should not enjoy a 95% presumption in favor of your reasonableness, such that it must be shown beyond a reasonable doubt that it was unreasonable to have used the force in order for you to face legal consequences for your action. If that is not what the law is, then it should be changed.Report
Might I request some feedback on this from the legally-trained-or-knowledgeable in the community here, even just on the factual level? Do I have correct here what the law requires (or doesn’t) wrt estabishing a self-defense legal defenses relating to incidents that occurred in public but out of view of witnesses? Generally, or only in certain places? Is this a function of relatively recent changes in the law (say, within the last three decades) in the fashion of SYG laws, castle laws (I realize those don’t apply to the condition I gave above, but they are a cousin to SYG), etc.? Or am I simply tilting at the ages-old standards for conviction on murder/manslaughter/assault w a deadly weapon charges, and I just need to get over it?
If anyone has time to straighten me out, I’d appreciate it. Cheers.Report
Nice to see you posting.Report
Couple thoughts not necessarily linked.
Good post. Well thought out.
Anyone who’s been around for a while knew how this incident would play out in the press and in the politics. Twana Brawly, Rodney King, etc. It hits all the preconceived notions, stereotypes, etc. I’m reminded of a thread about biased media somewhere else in this site given the well-known actions by NBC. That kind of “reporting” should get folks fired and those that exploited this for their own advancement/publicity deserve nothing but contempt-and I’m happy to give it.
SYG: I’m generally a SYG proponent, if only because where I live, I have less rights. You see, even in my own house, I have to retreat from an invader until I can’t retreat anymore. I’m sorry, but that’s wrong. I shouldn’t have to retreat, at all. If someone comes at me with the intent to do violence, I should be able to stand my ground and defend myself, whether I’m in my own home or on the street (in a responsible manner of course). However Todd, you make some good points about “good people calling monsters to the door”. A review of the law SYG and a possible refinement MAY be in order. But do you really expect that level of nuance and clear thinking in this charged environment? I’m not optimistic.Report
As I’ve noted elsewhere, the killing of Jordan Davis hasn’t cause one percent of the furor that Trayvon Martin’s caused, even though the circumstances are far less equivocal. And that’s because the police are seen to have done their job. SYG, which gave those police a reason not to do theirs, is the problem, not the solution.Report
Tod,
More posts about risk management, please. They’re always exceptionally interesting to me (as a guy who’s done some reading on the effects of both rule-design and institutional culture).Report
James, you should read Steven Fink’s “Crisis Management: Planning for the Inevitable”.Report
Tod (or others),
Do you ever encounter a situation where bad management might actually create monsters out of non-monsters? I’m thinking of the Stanley Milgram Experiment(which perhaps says nothing more than that no one in their right mind ought to participate in a Stanley Milgram experiment)?
I’m not saying this in an attempt to excuse anyone, but I do wonder what even the best of us might do if given the right (or wrong) incentives.Report
I believe there is truth to this as well, but the dynamic is different.
To use the case of organizations that look after children, for example, I am unaware of studies that show that a lack of checks and balances creates sexual predators out of people not initially wired to be such.Report
I think you’d need much stronger incentives to create sexual predators out of non-sexual predators.
Everyone has a jerky or lazy or whathaveyou side that might emerge in the right type of culture. I’m not sure everyone has a sexual predator side.Report
Perhaps the issue isn’t creating the predators so much as enabling them.Report
Exactly. Bad management will often enable the worst in us. For some of us, that materializes as slacking. For others, as sexual predation.Report
I think the difference is that the “monsters” you can create are only pseudo-monsters; they’ve not evil, just weak (which I think is the real meaning of Arendt’s “the banality of evil”). Once you correct the rules, they’ll be good again. These are folks who will be troubled by what they’ve done–the bad rules harm them as well–and will be glad for matters to be set back on a good, less emotionally distressing, path. They’re the ones who will stick around when things are corrected, rather than quitting or getting themselves fired.Report
I don’t think bad management is capable of creating bad people all that easily. Attracts them, yes. Perhaps even demands them (there are times I think there’s a solid case that sociopaths make the best upper management.)
But creates them? Eh, maybe the lower level sort of thing. Petty crimes, so to speak — supply theft, inappropriate workplace behavior (mild sexual harassment or racism, etc). People tend to adapt to the culture they work and live in, but….
For Milgram to be relevant, management has to be pushing them actively into unethical behavior. Which is different from management overlooking unethical behavior. (Which also happens!)
So passive permission and absent oversight might have the average joe act a little less ethically than he ordinarily would, but it’s corner-cutting versus crime.
I do agree that poor oversight attracts people willing to exploit it. That’s basically the same dynamic that leads con-men to good marks.Report
sociopaths make the best upper management??
ROFL. Yeah, if you like having poisons in your coffee.
It’s a bad day when your dept. hires a poison tester, because “that would be too easy”Report
Think about the requirements to run a successful, cutthroat business. Especially the last decade or so in finance.
Having an absolute total lack of empathy towards your clients, your coworkers, or your competitors was pretty much required. Sociopaths don’t have to be killers — they just have to be, in general, uncaring of the existance and problems of anyone other than themselves. Throw in a dash of “I deserve anything I want” and there you go — the modern leaders of the business world.
If I’d simply said “heavily narcisstic” — well, what bigwig CEO’s have you met that aren’t ridiculously full of themselves and never, for a moment, doubt themselves? Heck, look at Gordon Gekko — or for a real life example, Trump. Or Madoff.
Narcissism, self-confidance beyond any reasonable levels, completely unconcerned with the impact on anything but themselves….is there a better word for it?Report
It’s not the self-confidence I have a problem with. It’s that they’ve never seen a whit of trouble in their carefree lives.
I know a couple bigwig ceos that aren’t ridiculously full of themselves. the guy who runs costco. Hell, sam walmart wasn’t full of himself, either! (here’s the post where I reveal that I know people who lived in arkansas, way back when…).
But for a lot of corps, the uncaringness about human lives, the killer instinct for the best deal, no matter the cost if it fails… That’s trouble.
“Either I win, or everybody loses” is the motto of the sociopath.Report
Exactly. I’m afraid that a lot of the skills upper management looks for (when they’re not engaging in the casual incest and nepotism of the boardroom) are the same things that characterize, at best, an extreme narcissist.
There are always exceptions, but I tend to view those exceptions as genuinely talented people rising to the top — they don’t need to be sociopaths or extreme narcissists to do the job well.
But they’re an isolated exception. Most of the managers I interact with (I’m white collar) are good people. But the level up or the level above them? You start getting to people who associate aggression with skill, who view themselves as sharks or predators, who take everything as a high-stakes, zero-sum game that they’re going to win come hell or high water no matter the cost.
And someone relentless, mindless aggression somehow looks better (even if the results are worse) than knowledge and skill.
Bluntly put, the upper reaches of management consist almost solely of people I don’t like, don’t trust, and whom I firmly believe would stab me in the back for half a dollar.Report
I’ve had similar nightmares, that many of the people who “get the really big things done” in the world share those types of personality traits. Now, here’s the punchline. Why would political leaders be any different than business leaders?Report
Thanks to all who answered. I was at work today and couldn’t read them until just now.Report
Great stuff. I have one quibble:
You’ll notice prisons are not exactly overflowing with suburban fathers who shot armed murderers and rapists who were coming at them with knives.
I’m not going to defend SYG, which is a horror show, for the reasons you pointed out and others we’ve discussed these past months. But the thing about it that stands out to me is how it short-circuits the process: even if someone is indicted, if he wins his SYG motion, there is no trial, criminal or civil. What it’s intended to remedy, I think, is the suburban fathers who shot armed murderers and rapists who were coming at them with knives and were then bankrupted by attorney’s fees and a settlement paid to the criminal’s survivors, of which you can find many anecdotes (which I suspect are all exaggerated versions of the same two or three cases, but I don’t know this for a fact.)Report
So? One gets bankrupted?
Big. Fucking. Deal.Report
It is a BFD, if you are the one bankrupted.Report
Indeed, I’ve yet to find a reliable cite of any such suit having resulted in a plaintiff’s verdict.Report
I’ve got a vague recollection of a case from law school that involved a trap gun and some kids who broke into the guy’s house while he was away. But that’s not quite the same thing.Report
the most probable cause would be someone who steals a ladder and gets hurt while using it. Particularly if you can’t prove that the person had criminal intent.Report
Burt,
I think the point Mike was trying to make–and I second his parenthetical caveats–was that even having to go to trial will necessitate big expenses, regardless of whether the plaintiff ultimately wins.Report
Yes. I’m not trying to say that’s it’s a legitimate fear or not, but I see what SYG as trying to address is “All I did was defend myself, and now I’m in the system and have to bankrupt myself trying to get back out. And I was the real victim!”Report
Yes, IMO this is exactly the kind of fear SYG is intended to assuage (see my comments elsewhere in this thread and in the other as linked by Burt).Report
Fair ’nuff, gentlemen. But again, I don’t think we’re addressing a real problem here, only a perceived one. What we’re really talking about the definition of what is reasonable.
And we have a lot of people on the way who all have the ability to step up and say, “Hey, wait, is this a reasonable thing we’re doing here, going after this guy?” We have cops who may be sympathetic to you and never even refer charges, prosecutorial discretion to not bring them in the first place, grand juries to serve as checks on overzealous prosecutors, motions to dismiss by defense counsel or the court itself, and juries all as backstops here.
I can’t promise that the system will never go haywire and I can’t promise that all of these checking and braking mechanisms are particularly robust (viz.: grand juries indicting ham sandwiches). But I can say that lots of people have the ability to interpose at least a “waitaminute” and try to stop the thing in its tracks before it gets to imposing a sentence.Report
I can sign on to this.Report
Cory Maye?Report
Maye was at home and had no place to retreat to. He shouldn’t have needed a specific SYG law.Report
“Shouldn’t have needed” is right, but it might’ve saved him a lot of stress and time.Report
What I mean is, if a perfectly valid self-defense case wasn’t going to help him after he shot the chief’s son, neither would SYG.Report
You may be right. Was mostly just bein’ snarky. But he definitely is an example of someone who got caught up “in the system”, and it almost cost him a lot more than just a bankruptcy.Report
Right, given the specifics of his case, it’s not clear anything could have saved him. He was going to be railroaded, no matter what. SYG won’t help you if you shoot a cop on a raid, even if that cop doesn’t identify him or herself. Especially if you’re a black man.Report
So really, the law ought to be called “Stand Your Ground If You’re White.”Report
Or, “Better Not Stand Your Ground If the Invaders are Unannounced Non-Uniformed Police.”Report
This is what I’m waiting for.Report
Since another justification for SYG is that it’s an extension of the castle doctrine to locations other than your home, and Maye was at home, maybe “Stand Your Ground if you’re not black and they’re not cops, because Jesus Himself couldn’t help you with that one.”Report
Maybe that’s why Zimmerman should be let off the hook. Sure, he wasn’t a cop… but he *MIGHT* have been one.Report
Outstanding.
Defense attorney: Mr Zimmerman, was there any indication from Mr Martin that he was aware that you weren’t a police officer?
Zimmerman: No! For all he knew, I was. And you can’t assault an officer of the law. That’s why I had take action.Report
Tod,
This is a fantastic piece, containing exactly the type of nuanced, reasoned thinking that most other coverage lacked.
I will quibble with one part… your continued reference to Martin having committed no crime. Even if Martin HAD been committing non-violent crime (the type of crime he might have committed in the past and seems to be suspected of having been committing that night), it shouldn’t move the dial on our acceptance or tolerance of his death. I don’t care if Martin was robbing every house on that street blind; if he posed no threat to life or limb, it should not matter, not when assessing the acceptability of his death.Report
I say this because, more broadly, folks tend to overly focus on these types of elements when discussing the outrage we should feel about particular victims.
When Professor Gates had his run-in with the Harvard Police, much of the outrage was centered on, “He’s a professor! At Harvard! How outrageous?!?!” I understand this outrage is often offered as if to say, “If this can happen to someone like this, then what might happen to someone less ‘pure’?” acknowledging the reality that certain folks among us are more likely to be wrongly victimized, fair or not. But too often it seems to morph into, “Well, we shouldn’t accept innocent teenagers getting gunned down. But if he was smoking weed/stealing TVs… it’s not such a big deal,” which I find highly problematic.
If someone was not engaged in actions that directly contributed to or legitimately upped the likelihood of his becoming a victim, that it shouldn’t matter where they fall on various “purity” spectrums (spectra?).Report
Since we are not discussing it, I’m just going to add that I agree with you, Kaz.Report
But that is just because you owe me for the sports lessons I offer you.Report
There is much truth to this, as there probably is in Dan’s comment above about gun culture in general. I considered discussing each point, but left them out for the same reason I chose not to discuss race issues that may or may not have played a part: basically, I wanted to frame everything around those parts that most reasonable people could agree upon so as not to muddy the waters with the point I was trying to make.Report
Entirely fair and a very thoughtful approach.
It’s almost like you’re not some sort of principled pragmatist hack a-hole.Report
Also, I was trying to avoid attracting the kind of loons that showed up at Will’s entirely fair-minded and well-written post over at NAPP.Report
Good luck with that. If there’s such a thing as a loon-proof post, I’ve yet to see it.
And sometimes, as with “suckers at poker tables” – if you can’t spot the loon in the comment thread, it may just be you. 🙂Report
It’s almost like you’re not some sort of principled pragmatist hack a-hole.
It’s nice that somebody think so. But I have it on good authority that he’s the worst thing about this blog.Report
Todd, thanks for the kind words, but I’d hesitate to qualify SYG as a subject that most reasonable people could agree on. Either that statement is false, or else the law’s numerous and vocal supporters (including several in this comment section, who do seem reasonable even if I disagree with them on this issue) are unreasonable. Either possibility strikes me as a case where emphasizing your moderation as a tool to get everyone to agree might be unhelpful (I could be wrong, though, and this is probably not an argument that can be resolved to our mutual satisfaction).Report
Oh, and I haven’t said so, so let me add that the post itself is very well-done.Report
Thanks!Report
Not quite – I didn’t mean that we can or will agree on SYG; but in an attempt to be as persuasive as possible, I didn’t want to muddy the waters with other stuff that I know people disagree with and might get hung up on.Report
Ah, I see the distinction. That does make senses, and best of luck with it!Report
This was a really interesting piece Tod.Report
Tod,
Slightly OT, but what are the types of safeguards or checks-and-balances a school might put in place to avoid attracting predators? At the very least, I know we do background checks (I believe they are mandatory). We solicit character references, at least for faculty. Generally speaking, we are a community of thoughtful, attentive people, though this isn’t mandated in any sort of formal way. Is this typically sufficient? Or is there more you’d recommend if you were consulting for us (realizing full well that you are not consulting for us and can only give the most general of advice)?Report
When I was working at a Boys and Girls Club some 10 years ago, keeping an eye out for predator volunteers was a big deal. A lot of them would be scared off by the mandatory-required-by-law police check or wouldn’t be able to provide character references that were timely (someone who’s 29-30 years old should have got past using high school teachers as sole character references – or “best friends” who barely remember them).
The advantage for the clubhouse managers was that the overwhelming majority of these guys had already tried to volunteer at the Y or at local community centres as well so a few quick phone calls could elicit the right information. But I could see it was the kind of special insight that an experienced clubhouse manager would have acquired over the years.Report
It depends on the specific situation, but pretty common tools are things such as having a policy where an employee is not allowed with a child in a room with a closed door by themselves. Or in the case of agencies that have overnight supervision of children, having a “one adult on site” policy to save money. (Some organizations, however, do have 1 employee – but have cameras set up that feed their data into an off-site server.)Report
No over-nighting but there were policies re the kids’ changerooms where non-staff adults (including parents – there was some squawking over that) were not allowed. And other things that the clubhouse manager didn’t mention, largely because they were gut feeling things rather than official things.
He did say that in his 30+ years experience of working with kids he’d never seen wanna-be-predators vary their tactics much. They tended to do the same things that tripped staff sensors over and over again, and kept getting told their volunteer services were no longer needed.Report
I think we might have some of those things technically on the books, but I don’t know how stringently they are enforced or followed.
As a male in early childhood, a role that invites undue suspicion, I am hyper vigilant about protecting myself, and follow such practices voluntarily as best I can, whether or not they are policy.
When I was interviewing, I know that a lot of the corporate day care organizations (e.g., Kindercare) videotape everything that happens in their facilities. This is partly intended to send a signal to parents about safety and security, but also probably has to do with the high turnover rates, low pay, and low hiring standards that such centers often have. These seem the type of place that might be targeted by sexual predators were it not for the cameras and other safeguards.Report
Another definition of “bad management” might be “passive management” – if there’s no structural incentive or even positive feedback for pointing out potential problems down the road, people aren’t going to do it but will fall back on deferring to the powers-that-be. If SYG wasn’t road-tested farther than Election Day, then it was almost guaranteed to have flaws built in.Report
Given that “justifiable homicide” basically didn’t exist before SYG, it’s not particularly surprising that “justifiable homicide” would increase afterwards.
And it’s not as though there’s blood running in the gutters around there. We’re talking something like one-in-a-hundred-thousand to one-point-five-in-a-hundred-thousand. If we shouldn’t have passed SYG because Cory Maye is just a statistical outlier who can be safely ignored, then why can’t we say the same about the results of SYG?Report
“Given that “justifiable homicide” basically didn’t exist before SYG”
???
Not even remotely close to being true. All states have some kind of justifiable homicide law; all states that have SYG had them prior to SYG. In FLorida, the average number per year tripled the year after SYG, and has remained at that same tripled level since.
“If we shouldn’t have passed SYG because Cory Maye is just a statistical outlier who can be safely ignored, then why can’t we say the same about the results of SYG?”
Because the entire universe of possibilities does not consist of only “screw Cory Maye” or “incentivize people to not de-escalate” as the only two possible options.Report
“But your honor, he shot my child 5 times and had put the gun up to her head to deliver the coup de grace, and I was 30 feet away, so of course I shot him before he could pull the trigger. ”
“I’m sorry, but this state does not have a stand your ground law, so you cannot claim it was justifiable homicide. I hereby sentence you to 99 to life.”Report
Hey, Tod. This was, again, a brilliant piece.
From what I understand from folks in Law Enforcement, the folks most likely to benefit from SYG are not law-abiding citizens who find their own homes invaded but people like drug dealers who are fighting over turf. A guy comes onto your turf and tries to take, say, your corner? You can shoot him. When he is shot, you stood your ground.
There were folks who were in mind when the law was passed. (Carjacking victims, I understand.) These folks are not the folks most protected by application of the law. Instead the law protects interactions that, rightly, we’d want our law enforcement officers investigating and then arresting folks for… like drug dealers stealing street corners from each other.Report
“From what I understand from folks in Law Enforcement, the folks most likely to benefit from SYG are not law-abiding citizens who find their own homes invaded but people like drug dealers who are fighting over turf.”
This sounds exactly right to me. Which, I guess, means that we’ve ever-so-slightly reduced the cost of the WOD by eliminating those pesky drug-related homicide trial costs.
…yay…Report
WOW just what I was looking for. Came here by searching for
ribble cyclesReport
How odd. Though not as odd as clicking through and reading an essay obviously devoted to a wholly different subject, and then post a snippy comment.Report