Inequality, domination, community and human nature
Note: This post is part of our League Symposium on inequality. You can read the introductory post for the Symposium here. To see a list of all posts in the Symposium so far, click here.
James Hanley asks the league:
What, if anything, is wrong with inequality?
My first reaction is to think: “nothing whatsoever”. My initial thoughts are that there are no convincing arguments that could tell me why I should care about material equality as a terminal value. As far as distribution of material resources is concerned, I’m a maximin guy. I think that any amount of inequality is okay as long as the worst off improve absolutely. However, maybe I’m not thinking through things far enough. I would have reason to care about inequality if inequality produced negative consequences that I thought were serious*. So I thought deep and long and hard and came up with three things that maybe could get me to care about equality: The possibility of domination, the dissolution of community and people’s natural predilection for status games. i.e these are prima-facie compelling, but ultimately not convincing. Let me try to approach this one at a time. I will try to show their initial appeal and also try show why they are unconvincing.
The possibility of domination
This is perhaps one of the most common objections to inequality. The idea is that wealth can purchase political power by lobbying, campaign donations and by controlling the airwaves. Moreover, it is not that the imbalance of power is wrong in and of itself, it is that the imbalance of power allows those with more power and money to use their influence to implement policies that benefit themselves at the expense of the poor. To be clear, not all policies which make the rich better off and the poor even poorer are necessarily problematic. Pace Rawls, if a particular institutional arrangement secures certain fundamental liberties even at the expense of the income of the poor, such a system is still just. In short, the imbalance of money and therefore power will systematically create policies which are less just than those which would otherwise result. There are basically 3 reasons why this line of argument is not entirely convincing.
1. How likely is it that inequality in wealth will lead to inequality in political power? Is there genuinely an inequality of political power in the US. The US is apparently experiencing unprecedented levels of wealth inequality since the gilded age (or maybe ever). Yet, even though Mitt Romney has more money from millionaires, Obama can make up the difference with voters from other income demographics. On the other hand, one could observe that both parties are corporatist plutocratic parties beholden to business interests. Both parties are the parties of business. The issue of New labour in the UK is similar. However, the fact of the matter is that in a competitive democracy (which the US and UK are), it is really difficult to do an end run around the terminal policy preferences of voters. Even if those preferences are wrong or manipulated it is still the case that in a democracy, political power flows from people. Of course, where there is less political competition, politicians have more room to pursue unpopular policies. Qn for americans: Do American legislators ever pass laws which were unpopular with a majority at the time they were passed? I’m willing to bet that the answer is no (or very rarely). Legislators will especially not stay in power if they pass unpopular policies. Finally, we can ask if extreme disparities in wealth allow the wealthy to manipulate the conversation by controlling the press. Given the internet, it seems to be the case that the influence of formal journalism (the kind that is backed by large corporations) is waning relative to the influence of other more democratic or even anarchic and informal journalism.**
2. Even if large disparities in political power follow from large disparities in wealth, is does not necessarily (or even probabilistically) follow that policies that result from such power disparities are less just. For example, if lower-income folks are more likely to increased labour regulations, less foreign trade, less immigration or are more likely to be socially conservative, then the overall effect of their power on policy is likely to lead to greater injustice rather than less. In such a case, power inequality would be a good thing. i.e. neoliberal/libertarian-ish policies are antecedently prima-facie just, and if the system is more neoliberal/liberaltarian because elites who tend to be neoliberal/liberaltarian have a disproportionate influence, this is a good thing.
3. Even if income inequality led to power inequality, which in turn, resulted in genuine injustice, is this necessarily a problem with inequality? It could on the other hand be a problem with the institution type. There may be alternative institutions where the proper functioning of the system was not vulnerable to increases in income or power inequality. For example, if there were constitutional protections for various basic liberties, private property and even some provision for a social safety-net (we leave the details up to individual’s ideas about what is antecedently required by justice), then the proper functioning of the system would be more robust to increases in material inequalities. While the rich may find it easier to influence individual ordinary legislative acts, they would find it harder to garner the requisite supermajorities to change the constitution in such a way as to unjustly dominate others. Consider an analogy with the pursuit of self-interest. In command economies, self-interested behaviour often becomes detrimental to the public good. On the other hand, this is far less so in market economies. Whether or not self-interest is bad (or sinful) is beside the point. One set of institutions harnesses self-interest for public benefit to a greater degree than another. As far as institutional principles go (as opposed to principles of private morality), the problem is not selfishness because selfishness is impossible or at least highly impracticable to eliminate.
The undermining of Community
Other things being equal, large differences in wealth can provide very different backgrounds for people. If you are part of the really upper-crust set in the US, you are more likely to have grown up playing soccer and polo. You probably have your own horse and being part of the country club is normal. You fly first class wherever you go and going overseas at the drop of the hat is not a problem. Your family probably owns many luxury cars and you probably have a summer mansion, a city house, a country estate etc. i.e. like those guys in the Hamptons. You went to a private school which required uniforms etc. On the other hand, if instead of growing up in the Hamptons, you grew up in the Bronx, you have a whole different set of experiences. You rarely if ever have travelled overseas, and most likely on economic class instead of business or first class. You commute to school or work on public transport. If you do own a car, its more often than not second-hand and will be something like a ford or a Toyota. You’d have gone to a public school and you probably would have had to work part-time to pay your university tuition fees (unless you got a scholarship) And that’s just scratching the surface. There tend to be deeper differences in culture, outlook and expectations. People who have such different backgrounds are unable to identify with each other or find it very difficult to do so, and may probably find it difficult to empathise with each other as well. In other words, they lack the shared understanding of the world which allows people to form communities. At this point, there are two things the egalitarian may want to say in favour of communities. The first is that community ties can have material benefits. For example, if I shared a sense of community with my employees, then my business decisions would not just be driven by profit maximisation, but by the welfare of my workers. As M.A has written, employers won’t just make decisions that lay off lots of workers and make half a town jobless, they will, in feeling connected to the workers either find a way to re-train them, or cut into their own salary package in order to help out the workers.
The second thing is that community ties are themselves intrinsically good, even if describing how is somewhat difficult. To illustrate, lets consider two situations A and B. Situation A and B are state descriptions of various individuals in parallel universes. In A, all the individuals concerned have community ties with each other and each enjoys some level of material wealth. In B, everyone has a somewhat higher level of material wealth, but the community ties are gone, and there are no compensating ties to other communities. The communitarian in a number of cases is going to say that A is preferrable to B. While such a conclusions may seem bizarre to the more individualist among us, there are communities like this. The Amish, for instance, forgo insurance and social security because they see such things as undermining their community ethos. If someone falls sick and the family cannot afford treatment, the whole community bands together. If there is too much strain on community resources, people are allowed to die. The Amish, in certain cases (at least in times past), will allow children to die in order to prevent their community from fracturing. Without passing judgement on the Amish, the example is merely to illustrate the level of commitment some people have to communitarian ideals.
What then is wrong with the community based critique of inequality?
One problem with the idea of community bonds between employer and employee is that where such community bonds are detrimental to the bottom line, such a model of business will be less competitive to than familiar profit maximisation models. This, however, is a limited critique. In theory at the least, company profits need not be affected if the CEO, out of a sense of solidarity merely decides to take less compensation and increases the pay of his workers. Perhaps I am missing something, but if a particular company compensates its workers at a higher than market rate without harming profits (and the CEO can be gotten to play along out of altruism and community feeling), there is nothing that makes this company less competitive. (In fact, offering compensation at above existing market rates attracts more candidates and allows a CEO to be more picky and thus have more talented workers) Chalk this down to 1 point in favour of community. The sustainability of such a system is still problematic. The problem lies in the fact that a lack of severe income inequality is insufficient to sustain community, and that a sense of community (at least within reasonable non-Amish limits) is insufficient to contain income inequality. Such that even if the US started off with a sense of community and little inequality, with sufficient time and prosperity, both would be eroded to current levels. Even the Amish way of life is changing, with increasingly more contact with outsiders and modernity, it wouldn’t take me by surprise if their way of life as it currently exists died out in 200 years time. The cure for inequality in this case would be worse than the problem. Let us grant that everything else being equal, drastic income inequality actually makes the wost off even worse off (in terms of material goods) via erosion of community ties. The measures required to maintain a sense of community may nevertheless be worse; ranging from economy crippling measures to basic liberty eroding social policies. Nevertheless, I will grant this: It is worth caring about for at least this reason (that community ties can benefit the worst off) and if it could be achieved without the drawbacks, we should aim to engender and preserve community ties and insofar as it is instrumental to this end, reduce inequality.
But what if you cared about community for reasons that had little to do with the material benefit to its members? In that case, the drawbacks of trying to maintain community do not really matter as much. The problem again may lie along impracticability lines. While community sounds okay in the abstract, and we certainly have our own small communities that we have allegiance to, having a megacorporations a community sounds weird. I think part of this is because in certain ways, market relations are supposed to be impersonal. One person’s money should be good as anyone else’s. (We can all think of ugly situations where the acceptability of a person’s money was based on some other characteristic like the colour of their skin or their religious affiliation) Trying to build a nationwide community sounds a lot closer to madness. It seems insane for a country of 3 million and would be much worse for a country of 300 million. Especially where the population is already diverse in a number of ways. There just seems to be so many things standing in the way of nationwide community. Moreover can we really speak of being in a community with persons you never interact with in any way at all?
One final question that we may want to ask ourselves is that even if community is important, is it the proper domain of the state to interfere in it? As with religion, it seems to be that government involvement with community is corrupting to both community and government. So even if inequality endangered community, it may not necessarily be appropriate for the government to interfere.
Concern for relative status as a fundamental fact of human nature
In what may perhaps be the most compelling set of reasons as yet, we may find that we ought to care about material inequality because it is human nature to care about status games and wealth and conspicuous consumption is one of the avenues through which status games are often played by many. When proposing principles for institutions, one of the key constraints that are imposed is that the institution be able to generate the attitudes required to support it. However, when pursuing ideal theory if we place no limits on sources and extents of human motivation, then for any set of putative social goals, we could device almost any kind of institutional set-up together with the requisite complementary motivational set. Therefore, it would be theoretically impossible to designate any kind of institutional structure as ideal as almost any kind of institutional structure would be capable of producing the relevant state of affairs as long as the complementary set of motivations was postulated. For example, if our goal is to minimise inequality, having a very high tax rate coupled with a strong moral incentive to maximise pre-tax income does as well as a laissez-faire system where people are morally motivated to voluntarily donate most of their excess income to charitable organisations. When we can have a range of institutions that Therefore, when discussing institutional structure, even ideal theory must be aware of the natural limits of human motivation. If a libertarian critique of communism is that it is unrealistic in its hubristic assumption that people can be re-engineered to be sufficiently morally motivated to work even though they know that they all or most of the product of their labour will be confiscated in order to be redistributed, then perhaps those of us of a libertarian persuasion are similarly misguided in our assumption that in a world with great prosperity (even among the worst off) but tremendous income inequality, people will not feel envious and only care whether they had enough wealth to satisfy their own goals and desires.
But is it really misguided? Part of what motivates a libertarian belief that we can be unconcerned about status associated with wealth is that many of us are not concerned with how much wealth other people have. We don’t feel worse off just because others have more wealth than we know what to do with. It is not that libertarians are a non-materialistic bunch. I enjoy my creature comforts as much as the next guy and I want to earn oodles so that I can maintain or even improve my standard of living and provide the same or even better for my offspring. So here is a set of questions for the league:
- How do you self identify politically?
- What is your assessment of your financial situation relative to the various goals you have in life? Do you feel that you are financially capable of securing your most important goals and projects? answer 0 if none of your projects can be satisfied and 10 if all your wants can be satisfied
- How do you personally feel about those who have lots more wealth than you do? 0 if they’re stinkers, 10 if you think “good for them!”
- [edit h/t to Kazzy] How do you personally feel about luxuries that you and your compatriots previously enjoyed exclusively but are now enjoyed by others poorer than you? 0 if they should keep to their place, 10 if you think “fantastic, the more the merrier!”[/edit]
If it is plausible that many of us could have no animus towards those who are better off than us, then it would seem that it is not beyond human nature to eliminate material envy as a key motivation (at least under favourable conditions). i.e. we may still be motivated to be status seekers, but we ideally would seek status in ways that have less to do with how much wealth we have and more to do with personal achievements.
Conclusion
I have tried to show what I think to be the most fruitful arguments in favour of being concerned or income inequality. At the same time I have tried to take a critical look at the various reasons. Admittedly, the treatment provided here is inadequate. More can genuinely be said with regards to these arguments both pro and con. But perhaps it is best if I leave my discussion here for now
*Caring about inequality when it is caused by unjust processes is just bad reasoning. Just because a particular unequal outcome is caused by an unjust procedure doesn’t mean that the outcome is problematic in virtue of its inequality. The outcome, insofar as it is realisable by other more just procedures is not even necessarily intrinsically bad. Inequality doesnt suddenly become a bad-making feature of the world just because the inequality was produced bad procedures. Where an unjust procedure produces a particular set of consequences, there are so many different dimensions along which we could talk about said state of the world that it seems particularly odd to pick out inequality as the bad making feature. I’m not saying that bad making features cannot be conditional, I’m asking why we pick out inequality rather than the average wealth, or the median wealth or the lowest quintile of wealth as the feature that is worrisome whenever we think some kind of cheating has been going on. Answering the question of why we should care about inequality when it is caused by an antecedently unjust procedure faces the same sorts of justificatory burden as the question of why we should care about inequality at all.
**A lot of claims here. Links will be provided on request. I’m lazy, so sue me.
Murali-
Regarding your three questions down at the bottom there, why do you only ask about how folks feel about those wealthier than they? Isn’t it a two way street? I know several VERY wealthy people who get all up-in-arms if they see someone less wealthy then them who are able to indulge in the same “elite” and “exclusive” experiences that the wealthier person assumed was reserved only for them and their ilk. Some of these folks go to great ends to maintain this exclusivity, using artificial means to shut folks out of experiences they might otherwise be able to indulge in. This, to me, is very problematic and is often ignored when we talk about relative wealth and status and inequality.Report
Right, I have never thought such a thing before and never imagined that any real person in this day and age would think like that. I will update accordinglyReport
Oh, they do and they can.
Their is a phrase that I have heard on more than one occasion. And as ugly as it is, I will not censor it, because I think it is important to understanding how some (not all, not even most… but some) people think. The phrase is “nigger rich”. I heard it used when, as a teenager, I noticed that many of the black folk in my town (whom everyone assumed were poor because, well, they were black) drove nicer cars or wore nicer clothes than some of the white folks (whom everyone assumed were rich or at least richer than the black folks because, well, they were white). I was told that they were simply “nigger rich”. They spent whatever money they did have and exhausted all their credit to buy nice cars or clothes. They certainly weren’t REALLY rich… not like OTHER folks were… no, no… there was something ugly about their indulging in privileges previously assumed to be reserved for folks not like them. The venom that dripped from people’s mouths when they said this was appalling. And, I think, captured how some (again, not all, not even most) folks felt about those previously kept on the outside making their way inside. They couldn’t be acknowledged as equals and have their successes celebrated. Nope. They were nigger rich. Plain and simple. Who cares if many of them were doctors or lawyers or businessmen and women? They were black folk, black teenagers (!!!) driving BMWs and wearing gold chains.
(There is absolutely room for conversation around different values around spending and wealth. Some folks absolutely do spend more money on material goods while neglecting things like retirement or savings. Folks tossing around phrases like “nigger rich” were not engaging in this conversation.)Report
This is completely and way outside my experience. I’ve met more than my share of racist folk but never encountered sentiments like you described.* I’ve always thought it is easy to be happy for people who were once worse off than you but now doing as well as you (unless you antecedently hate their guts because they stole your lunch money in elementary school) I never knew racism could reach unto an actual hatred for the other in such an ugly way.
*The kind of racist sentiments I heard people express are along the lines of: all those people are smelly, or lazy or would eat anything (even the pig’s trotters)Report
It’s not just racial. Class-based as well. The newly rich have never been the same as the old-money rich. Ever.
Heck, a famous quote about the Clintons echoes it — something like “they came to town like they owned the place, and it’s not their place”?
A lot of beltway resentment to the Clintons was motivated by class — Clintons were barely rich hicks from Arkansas, not the scions and peers of the people that actually “ran” Washington.Report
you mean like Al Gore? 😉
The newly rich, in general, are Democrats. They earned their money, they can always earn more of it — from the lower or middle class. Because they’re good at innovating and coming up with new ways to convince us to give them money.
The “old money” is a fearful class, full of people nearly paranoid about other people taking their wealth. Theyve’ only ever known richness,and they tend to be pretty risk adverse.Report
if old money loses a dollar, they’re pretty sure it’s never coming back.Report
That’s not really what I’m saying, Kimmi. I’m not talking about people who might be genuinely threatened by changes in inequality, wealth, etc. I’m talking about folks who get upset about others getting there’s, especially if those folks got it more easily because of how things have progressed. The guy who paid $10,000 to be one of a select group of people with a 100″ TV doesn’t feel so special when other folks pay $5000 for an 80″ with superior technology.Report
That goes back to status symbols. Keeping up with the Joneses and all.
it does you no good if some poor person is aping your status symbols. How can you tell the ‘real’ rich from the ‘fake’ rich. God knows, you might end up sharing champagne with the wrong sorts.
This is basically high school clique dynamics. We might as well be picking out fleas and grooming each other, this is primate level signaling.Report
Which is why if this kind of signalling is so inbuilt into us, that we cannot channel it into non-monetary areas without coercion, thenwe have to care about inequality. c.f. hte third argument.Report
As Morat says, it really is much more about class than race, though race is a huge element of it. I mean, the phrase “nouveau riche” exists for a reason.
It generally manifests itself as a certain bitterness and often exists among the middle to middle-upper classes. “Hey! I busted my ass to get where we are and we figured once we got here we’d be on the inside! And now EVERYONE is on the inside? What the F?”
It is really hard to explain well. There are those who are inside and those who are outside. Often these lines are carefully drawn and painfully maintained. When those lines are obliterated, and folks who defined themselves and prided themselves on being on on the “inside” suddenly don’t have that to fall back on, things can get ugly.Report
Money isn’t something you *MAKE*, child. Money is something you *HAVE*.Report
“I met the most clever man, darling. He actually reaches into people’s heads and repairs their brains. He’s saved ever so many lives. May I have him over to dinner some time? He has such fascinating stories.”
“I’ve met that sort of chap. They put on such airs, for tradesmen.”Report
Saw the edit. Well handled. Thanks! I’ll offer my responses below.Report
(Kazzy asked me to copy this comment into this thread.)
I don’t recall which prince it is the story’s about, but at age 16 he’s introduced to the wonders of physical love by a famous and skilled courtesan. After they’re done, she explains to him that it isn’t only fun, it’s also how babies are made.
“Royal babies, of course. But how do peasants have babies?”
“The same way.”
“Nonsense. It’s too good for peasants.”Report
1.) Liberal. Primarily because I can’t find a better word to describe myself, though I am increasingly finding myself to be an atypical liberal. Or at least not a stereotypical one.
2.) 8. I’m relatively confident that we can achieve the realistic goals we have. While traveling the world wantonly in our later years and paying for our not-yet-conceived children’s college tuition would be great, I don’t consider these to be realistic goals and thus would not be frustrated if they were not realized.
3.) 8. Generally speaking, assuming the people in question made their money in moral ways, I don’t really have much issue with them. I might be bothered by some of the attitudes that I see embodied in some of these people, but that is really more about them than their wealth (though the attitudes are often borne out of their wealth). And I should say that I have regular interaction with folks wealthier and far wealthier than I as a result of teaching in private schools.
4.) 10. Great! Good for them! With the same caveat being that they made their money/acquired access through moral means.Report
Murali,
Thanks. I am still wrestling with a few of the ideas you are introducing, especially the end on inequality introduced by procedural unfairness…
My answers
1) Classical Liberal
2) 10. I am in the bottom quintile voluntarily as I have chosen other interests than pursuing wealth. This may say more about the inadequacies of income as a measure of prosperity though. Retired people can be technically poor and well off.
3) 10. I wish there were lots more rich people and that they were all making lots more money. I believe we could solve a lot of problems as they would pay even more of our taxes, and could use their money to drive investments.
4). 10. I wish everyone could become rich. Indeed, I believe the biggest problem with inequality is that a class of the poor is stuck in poverty. This is what I believe we need to address.Report
* How do you self identify politically?
Socially fairly far left of center from a political standpoint (much closer to center from a cultural standpoint). Economically a tad right of center.
* What is your assessment of your financial situation relative to the various goals you have in life? Do you feel that you are financially capable of securing your most important goals and projects? answer 0 if none of your projects can be satisfied and 10 if all your wants can be satisfied
This one is tricky. I’m in the top quintile but I also live in a very “non-cheap” region. Call me an easy 6. I could be as high as an 8 with rigorous discipline, but there would be enormous tradeoffs in psychological well-being at that point.
* How do you personally feel about those who have lots more wealth than you do? 0 if they’re stinkers, 10 if you think “good for them!”
5-/4+. Most rich are – at worst – disconnected from people below them. I think they’re generally about as inclined to be oblivious as the average guy. I feel a tad snarky towards people with high power and less of a sense of responsibility than the next guy, though. So, no fault of their own, really, but a slight negative impact in practical terms.
* How do you personally feel about luxuries that you and your compatriots previously enjoyed exclusively but are now enjoyed by others poorer than you? 0 if they should keep to their place, 10 if you think “fantastic, the more the merrier!”
10.Report
I stopped at point 1 since it, prima facie, wrong.
See poll from yesterday for example
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/06/14/us-usa-campaign-economy-bush-idUSBRE85D0XI20120614Report
Well, that’s too bad, because you missed point 2, where he tells us that he’s OK with might makes right as long as the powerful are implementing the policies he likes. Nothing could possibly go wrong with that plan.Report
There are alternative ways to getting the powerful to craft the right kinds of policies. For example, if congressperson’s salary was pegged to the average income (inclusive of welfare payments) of the lowest 10%, then congresspersons, in an effort to earn more, will go for the policies that really do help the poor and not just those that make a good show of it.Report
But we don’t have such a system, nor any prospect for getting there because the system is controlled by the rich and powerful.Report
Well, we could try to include it as part of a constitutional amendment. Congresspersons who don’t vote for it? Well obviously they’re not willing to put their money where their mouth is. There are ways and means to sell such an amendment. We can accompany such an amendment with an additonal clause that readjusts the current pay schendule to within an equivalent range within the private sector. And we tie the two together so that they cannot vote for one part without the other. (Because if they could just vote themselves private sector salaries without doing the work, they would)Report
Under the premise of your point 2 (and also in reality) policy is controlled by the rich and powerful. So again, the question is where this deus ex machina would come from, since a system in which representatives are rewarded for privileging the non-elite is not in the interests of the elite.Report
Well, there are two ways I can go about this:
One way is to say that this is a bit of ideal theorising. If I were king… or if I were setting up a charter city in Somalia, I could set things up this way from the very beginning. The fact that the problem is more intractable in the US is not necessarily a dispositive argument against it. If it could never be succesfully implemented in any real world country, that would be a more serious criticism. However I think there are some places in the world where something like this could be successful.
The other thing to note is that by implementing the amendment, there is an immediate massive increase in congressman annual salary.
Remember that there is a readjustment every 15 years such that congressman salary is in the same ballpark as the 95% percentile salary in the private sector. So we calculate how many percentage points larger the top 5%’s salary is than the average income of the bottom 10% and call this number k. k will be recalculated only once every 15 years. Lets suppose that the average income of the everybody from the bottom to the 10% mark is $x. Then for any one year, the congressman’s salary will be $kx. since k is constant over the long term, congressmen can only increase their salary by increasing x. At the same time, they have reason to adopt the amendment because of the immediate massive upward readjustment.
I am somewhere between being ambivalent about campaign finance reform to sorely tempted. What I’m tempted to do is say all campaigns shall be publicly funded and then just ‘forget’ to put any money into the campaign finance account. Or to be even more draconian, limit political campaigning to just 3 months before election day. This actually works kind of well in Singapore. Politics ends up being a lot more boring (which is the whole point) and actual governing gets done instead of the deadweight loss that is the year round political campaign. It is also why I blog here rather than at a Singaporean site.Report
Fair enough. But leaving aside the hypothetical of a benevolent monarch putting in place a fair and just system, those of us living in a real existing system have to deal with the reality of a system that reflects the interests of the powerful. This returns us to the topic at hand, the role of inequality in maintaining injustice. In the system we live in, the government responds to the interests of the powerful, power comes largely from wealth, and the greater the wealth disparity, the greater the power disparity. It really is that simple despite all the bad-faith misdirection from the right about “envy”.Report
well as it stands, government may respond to the political preferences of the powerful. But that doesnt always co-incide with their narrow insterest. Quite by coincidence, policies that may be in their interests may also be in the interests of everyone else. Or more pessimistically people may have political preferences that serve no one’s interests. Moreover interests are yet again one step removed from justice, which is the thing we should care about. There are certain kinds of interests, no matter how many people have them should not be satisfied. for example if I had an interest in interfering with what consenting adults did in the privacy of their bedrooms, then no matter how many people shared my intersts, this would nto be an interest that shoul be fulfilled.
Given that political preferences are thus removed from justice, it is far from clear that democratic procedures are the best way to achieve justice.Report
But that’s exactly how it works now. Forget the salary, that’s chump change compared to the tens of millions spent on congressional campaigns and hundreds of millions spent on presidential campaigns.
Want to win a case? Get a good lawyer. Most of these politicians are lawyers in point of fact. Only as politicians, they get to make the damned laws. Investing in a politician is getting the system to work on your behalf. Believe me on this. This isn’t going to be changed by pegging their salaries to how well poor people do in life. These politicians aren’t in it for the money, they’re in it for the power. The people with the money, they need representation. They’ll take care of the politicians who take care of them.Report
As it is, most people, in Congress are quite well off and don’t need to depend on their salaries. Your proposed amendment would just exacerbate that.Report
What other sources of income do they have?Report
Rich before they got to Congress, married to rich people, or they can take out good loans because they’re going to be rich when they get out of Congress.Report
Or business owners, in particular partners in law firms.Report
What does the link have to do with my point 1?Report
1) Left-libertarian.
2) 2. I honestly don’t have that many concrete goals to begin with — mostly I just want to make enough money so I no longer have to borrow from anybody while still having enough free time to do what I really want to and enjoy life. Compared to what I actually make right now, $50k/year would be positively Ballin’. Things are difficult, I have to pay a bill late every now & then & I kinda get down on myself at times over it, but things could always be worse. I guess that’s one benefit to having little ambition.
3) It depends on how they got it. People that work hard and get paid well for it I have no animosity for and give a 10. Inheritance types I’ll give a 2, because they didn’t work for it & tend to look down on people even though they just won a genetic lottery, yet at least somebody worked at it to leave it to them in the first place (while I understand the sentiment, I wish more consideration of how that could warp the kids’ perception of the world took place). People that maintain wealth via rent-seeking (which IMO is equivalent to armed robbery) I wish I could go into negative numbers for.
4) 10. If you can afford it, fine.Report
> How do you self identify politically?
Liberal.
> What is your assessment of your financial situation relative to the various goals you have in life? Do you feel that you are financially capable of securing your most important goals and projects? answer 0 if none of your projects can be satisfied and 10 if all your wants can be satisfied
8, but I’m not really materially oriented.
> How do you personally feel about those who have lots more wealth than you do? 0 if they’re stinkers, 10 if you think “good for them!”
10 if they came by it honestly. 5 bonus points if they use it to do good works, like Mr. Gates. 5 demerits if they just buy themselves toys, like Mr. Ellison. And I always root against the Islanders.
> How do you personally feel about luxuries that you and your compatriots previously enjoyed exclusively but are now enjoyed by others poorer than you? 0 if they should keep to their place, 10 if you think “fantastic, the more the merrier!”
If they appreciate what they’ve got, great. I get annoyed with people who have season tickets to the Giants and can’t explain the infield fly rule.Report
1) Liberal
2) 2. I’ve kind of chosen a somewhat difficult life course in that I’ve had to spend down a lot of the savings I acquired for the sake of career goals, and I’m not really sure if at this point I can reach the goals I’d set. I think it was perfectly reasonable to expect to be able to finish my master’s and get my JD, but without the ability to debt finance my education, I’m pretty much up a shit creek at the moment. Lack of employment also hurts from a budgetary perspective. And I suppose I’m not really socially where I want to be.
3) 5. It’s in the middle because it really does depend. On average, I’m rather appalled at the lack of Noblesse Oblige in the usual super rich who whine about not having as big a yacht as his neighbor. But I’m also highly impressed with people like Bill and Melinda Gates.
4) 20. There’s no such thing as things being too good for people, but rather most things aren’t good enough for the majority. Everyone should be able to enjoy luxuries at some point in their lives. That they don’t is a failure on the part of greater humanity. Post scarcity can’t come soon enough.Report