Models and the Efficient Market Hypothesis
Apparently I’m posturing when I defend the efficient markets hypothesis (EMH). I’d like to posture some more, and at length.
First, I should note that I don’t claim to be an expert in the EMH. But I’ve been following the debate closely, and I don’t think the critics have actually rebutted, and frequently have not even addressed, the basic defenses of the EMH advocates–often, I think, they’ve been attacking strawmen. Also, I do know something about models, and I know that attacking the premises of a model indicates misunderstanding what a model is for, and most of the critiques of the EMH attack the premises.
Fair warning: There’s a lot to say here, so this is a long post, and perhaps a bit technical in parts. I’ll try to avoid jargon and be clear, but I can’t be brief. (I believe it was Einstein who said, “if you can’t explain it simply, you don’t understand it well enough.” I won’t deny that might apply here.)
Assumptions Don’t Always Make an Ass of You and Me
To the layperson, attacking the assumptions, of a model seems fair. If the model has false assumptions, how can it be valid, right? But this is incorrect in two ways.
1: Garbage in is not always garbage out
First, if a model is used to predict/explain how the real world works, what really matters is a model’s accuracy, its output rather than its input. For example, climate models don’t accurately handle rainfall in their assumptions, which has been a big point for critics. But if it turns out that the models accurately predict warming trends, it doesn’t matter if their assumptions about rainfall are accurate, or even if they are totally absent: what matters is that the model works.
One of the most notable statements of this comes from economist Milton Friedman.
In so far as a theory can be said to have “assumptions” at all, and in so far as their “realism” can be judged independently of the validity of predictions, the relation between the significance of a theory and the “realism” of its “assumptions” is almost the opposite of that suggested by the view under criticism. Truly important and significant hypotheses will be found to have “assumptions” that are wildly inaccurate descriptive representations of reality, and, in general, the more significant the theory, the more unrealistic the assumptions (in this sense).
The reason is simple. A hypothesis is important if it “explains” much by little, that is, if it abstracts the common and crucial elements from the mass of complex and detailed circumstances surrounding the phenomena to be explained and permits valid predictions on the basis of them alone. To be important, therefore, a hypothesis must be descriptively false in its assumptions;
Not everyone agrees, naturally, but I do. I always think of some of the assumptions of physics, such as a universe without friction. We all know that objects in motion don’t really stay in motion forever, that they are in fact affected by real-world forces, but nobody says (I hope), “Newton’s first law is sooooooo stupid.”
Of course if the model doesn’t work, then it’s appropriate to critique the assumptions, but not on the grounds that they’re false, just on the grounds that they don’t produce the expected results. So a critique that “the Efficient Markets Hypothesis can’t be right because it assumes people are rational, when in reality they aren’t,” is a bad argument. The critique that “if the Efficient Markets Hypothesis doesn’t make accurate predictions; that might be because it assumes people are rational when in reality they aren’t” is a reasonable (but not necessarily accurate, even if people are in fact not rational) argument.
Presumably, very unrealistic assumptions are more likely to produce bad results than more realistic assumptions. But, odd as it may sound, we can’t really know that a priori for any particular case. So, as Scott Sumner wrote:
The question is not whether the EMH is “true,” how could it be? Almost no economic model is precisely true. The question is whether it is useful.
Or as Noah Smith says of the Dynamic-Stochastic General Equilibrium model,
A DSGE model is just a tool. It’s a gizmo, like a fork lift or a lithium-ion battery.
Now you may think the model isn’t useful, that it’s a bad tool, but Sumner thinks it’s useful. That is, he doesn’t think the anti-EMH models, that would suggest you can reliably beat the market, have ever been proven right.
2: The big “if”–testing assumptions
The second reason attacking the premises is invalid is because premises are often stated on a “if” basis. “If” these premises hold, we would expect this particular result. The model then is accurate insofar as those premises hold, and no more. And then we can examine how much deviation from the model occurs when this or that assumption doesn’t hold.
For example, in game theory the model of the prisoner’s dilemma assumes the only values for players are internal to the game, what they can win or lose by cooperating or defecting. In reality, people hold values about cooperation and defection that are external to the game–they come into the social science laboratory with those values. So the prediction of game theory for one-shot games played with a stranger is 100% defection. It turns out that we don’t get 100% defection–some people defect. (We say they act irrationally, but in fact it means they have a set of values which outweigh the gains they could make by defecting in the game.) But not that many people defect. If I recall correctly, 70% or more of people will defect in one-shot games. So we know the assumption doesn’t (totally) hold, but we can see the degree to which it’s not holding affects the accuracy of the prediction.
Now I hear people thinking loudly, “the premises of the EMH don’t hold!” The point is, that doesn’t disprove the model–it just demonstrates how reality varies from the model when the premises don’t hold.
The Model of Efficient Markets
So what is the Efficient Market Hypothesis? As I noted above, I don’t claim to be an expert in it. It’s a macro theory, and I’ve never made any bones about the fact that I’m not particularly strong in macro. I don’t know all the subtle details and variations. James K and J R could, I am sure, both do a much better job of explaining it. But then explaining it thoroughly would probably be a long post in itself. So I’m going to just explain it briefly.
Eugene Fama describes the hypothesis succinctly:
A market in which prices always “fully reflect” available is called “efficient.”
That’s a bit vague, as Fama immediately notes, but later he gets more specific.
First, it is easy to determine sufficient conditions for capital market efficiency. For example, consider a market in which (i) there are no transaction costs in trading securities, (i) all available information is costlessly available to all market participants, and (iii) all agree on the implications of current information for the current price and distributions of future prices of each security. In such a market, the current price of a security obviously “fully reflects” all available information.
There’s at least one more unstated assumption: rationality. While there are endless debates over how to properly define that concept, for purposes here I think it can fairly be said to mean that people understand how that information can benefit them and will in fact use it in that way.
Now, remember what I said above about unrealistic assumptions like a frictionless universe? Here in (i) and (ii) Fama is talking about a frictionless economy. If it’s useful for studying physics, why not economics? But let’s be sure that we don’t make the mistake of thinking Fama isn’t aware of how unrealistic these assumptions are:
But a frictionless market in which all information is freely available and investors agree on its implication is, of course, not descriptive of markets met in practice. Fortunately, these conditions are sufficient for market efficiency, but not necessary. For example, as long as transactors take account of all available information, even large transaction costs that inhibit the flow of transactions do not in themselves imply that when transactions do take place, prices will not “fully reflect” available information. Similarly (and speaking, as above, somewhat loosely), the market may be efficient if “sufficient numbers” of investors have ready access to available information. And disagreement among investors about the implications of given information does not in itself imply market inefficiency unless there are investors who can consistently make better evaluations of available information than are implicit in market prices.
So even if these assumptions are violated–even if they are unrealistic and don’t hold in the real world–that doesn’t necessarily mean the market won’t be efficient.
But it also does not mean the market will be efficient, and Fama makes a crucially important point here.
But though transaction costs, information that is not freely available to all investors, and disagreement among investors about the implications of given information are not necessarily sources of market inefficiency, they are potential sources. And all three exist to some extent in real world markets. Measuring their effects on the process of price formation is, of course, the major goal of empirical work in this area [emphasis added–JH].
I want to emphasize and clarify this point, keeping in mind what I said above about how we use assumptions in models. The research program of the EMH is not to prove that markets are efficient. Please allow me to say that again, with emphasis.
The research program of the EMH is not to prove that markets are efficient.
So when someone says, “the model’s stupid, people don’t have all the information and markets aren’t efficient,” that is not a refutation, nor even a critique, of the EMH. The research program is to figure out how those real-world diversions from the assumption of the ideal perfect market shape the prices of stocks.
In other words, Fama–the god of the EMH–has argued that real-world market prices are not necessarily “correct” in the way efficient market prices would be.
If you didn’t get that, please stop right now and re-read the last 6 paragraphs. If you didn’t know that the Efficient Markets Hypothesis does not predict that markets will be efficient, then you have not had the hypothesis properly explained to you.
What the EMH Predicts
The EMH, at its core, is a theory about price-formation in markets, not about grand-scale economic outcomes. Do some people use it differently? Oh, sure, you can find examples with ease. But, friends, I’m sticking to Eugene Fama here, the guy who’s most identified with the theory (although its antecedents long predate him) and who won a Nobel prize for it (delightfully, in the same year his critic Robert Shiller also won, for theories very much in contradiction to the EMH).
1: Correct Prices
The EMH does not say market prices will always be “correct” in the sense of reflecting a truly efficient market.
The EMH predicts “incorrect” prices may–not definitively will, but may–occur when the assumptions do not hold. One of those cases occurs when there is private information. The EMH predicts that market prices will reflect this information, but does not say that those prices will be efficient prices.
People often point to the opacity of mortgage-backed securities as a refutation of the EMH. But remember that the pure form of the model assumes perfect information–it’s an assumption, so it cannot be a prediction. That’s just a logical necessity–no model can in any coherent way predict its own assumptions. So what does the opacity–the lack of information–mean about the EMH? It means it would predict that those prices would be inefficent.
And let’s not pretend that kind of opacity is normal. We were all aghast at just how opaque those securities were. They stood out because they were so abnormal, because they don’t actually represent the normal market.
But what about J. P. Morgan profiting off its realization that its MBSs were worthless by selling them as though they were more highly valued? The EMH would predict that the prices would reflect that–as everyone is complaining actually happened–but it would not predict that price to be efficient.
2. Beating the Market
The EMH does predict that if enough information is widespread enough, an investor cannot consistently outperform the market. Remember the old adage that knowledge is power–if everyone has the same knowledge you do, you cannot use that knowledge to gain an edge over them. In the same way, if others have the same knowledge about stocks as you have, you cannot consistently make better choices than they do (unless, perhaps, you are far more rational than nearly all of them).
This prediction has been tested repeatedly, and the evidence suggests it’s accurate. In most studies, throwing darts at stock picks performs as well or better than actually picking stocks. (I’m amused by people I know on the left who scoff at the EMH, but snarkily critique the stock market by pointing out that poo-flinging monkeys can do as well as Wall Street traders. Well, I hate to destroy their illusions, but Fama’s going to happily agree with them.)
What about hedge funds that claim to outperform the market? They emphasize the years they have good returns, but across time they just don’t.
What about Warren Buffet? As a case study, he seems to be the exception that disproves the rule, doesn’t he? But it’s always good to step back from a single-case and look at the world statistically, at least when we have a large enough n. And when it comes to investors, we’ve got a damn large n. And what would we expect to be the distribution, purely from random chance, of such a large n? We’d expect to see most people clustered near the middle, with some outliers at each end. That is, even if all investors were poo-flinging monkeys (and who’s to say they aren’t?), over a lifetime some would wildly underperform the average, and others would “impressively” outperform the average.
John Quiggin has what seems to me a completely unpersuasive reply to this argument.
So supporters of the efficient markets hypothesis have sought a redefinition that would make it invulnerable to refutation. Their central argument is one that has already been discussed – if it is possible to diagnose the existence of a bubble, then it is possible to make arbitrarily large profits betting against it. And if someone like Warren Buffett has in fact done this, that can be put down to luck. Only if everybody can make money betting against the market can the EMH be wrong. But of course, it’s impossible for everyone to bet against the market – the market is just the aggregate of bets.
But, no, that’s just wrong, badly wrong. Wrong in the way I would expect any economist to grasp because they’ve all had methods and stats courses. It doesn’t take “everybody” beating the market to disprove EMH’s claim that you can’t consistently beat the market. It only takes a percentage of them that is larger than is explainable by chance. I’m not sure what that number would be, but operating just off the idea that researchers commonly reject conclusions if there is a greater than 1 in 20 chance of them being errors, I’d suggest that evidence that more than 5% of investors beat the market regularly over time would be a pretty hard blow to the “random walk” theory of the market. Not to say nobody’s tried to measure that, but I’ve yet to see anyone demonstrate what percentage of investors do so, and if it’s greater than 5%, I’d be really interested to see it.
3. Bubbles and Busts
Does the EMH predict there can’t be bubbles or busts? That’s what some critics believe, but it doesn’t really say that. Of course I see lots of “explanations” of the EMH on the web that either get this flatly wrong or don’t make it clear (including, for example, investopedia). But it seems to me that the model incorporates the ideas of bubbles and busts–they’re part of the random walk of the market–it just says that you can’t reliably predict them. If you could, you could always beat the market by buying in early when you predict a bubble, then getting out in a timely manner and shorting stocks in time for the bust.
But didn’t lots of people predict the bust of 2008? Sure (although not nearly as many as predicted it retrospectively). But does that prove anything? Well, not really. First, if anyone could really predict bubbles regularly, they could get mighty damned wealthy doing so. How many people claiming a bust was inevitable in 2008 were so confident in their prediction that they went big on investing against the market? Not a whole lot, so far as I have heard. So while I would agree there was growing uneasiness among a lot of people, I don’t think there were really that many that truly were absolutely confident it was a bubble. And I’m not inclined to believe after-the-fact assertions, what with cognitive biases and the problems of memory.
Second, predicting “a” bubble is no more proof of the ability to predict them generally than is a prediction of an election. There’s a whole cottage industry of academics <wasting their time building models to predict presidential elections. As far as I can tell, all of them can predict–or “predict”–some elections, but none of them can do so repeatedly. A couple of weeks ago my colleage, who’s a fairly big booster of Nate Silver, slyly asked me, “if the Republicans win the Senate, will that prove Nate Silver right?” It was a joke–we both knew the answer. And the same dynamic that holds for predicting an election holds for predicting a bubble: doing it once, even twice, doesn’t actually prove a thing about your ability to do so regularly.
Bubbles, after all, are only truly identifiable retrospectively (if even then). There are booms that look a lot like bubbles but never bust. Mathematician Andrew Odlyzko demonstrates one here. Sumner suggests another likely one here. Sumner also comments that
Just when I was starting to warm up to Shiller’s model, he missed the huge bull market of 2009-11.
. OK, so one miss doesn’t prove EMH right anymore than one hit proves it right. But as Sumner also notes,
Didn’t Shiller “offer the famous “irrational exuberance” phrase to Greenspan in 1996, before the stock bubble occurred? If so, this shows how hard it is to offer useful investment advice, even if you sense the market is overvalued.
OK, that’s only twice Shiller has missed the target, but just how many predictions has he made? For him to be doing better than 1 in 20, and counting him as having predicted the mortgage crisis, he needs to have made at least 20 verifiable predictions, with at least one other correct one. And maybe he has–I honestly don’t know. But it seems doubtful that he actually could have made that many predictions about distinct changes of direction in the market.
But, dammit, bubbles seem so goddamed obvious! And, in retrospect, after we can see the bust they sure do. The rest is pretty easily explained by cognitive biases. Sumner (again, I know! but he writes so damned clearly) discusses this, focusing on pattern-recognition bias-the same thing that makes us see a man (or old woman, or rabbit) in the man.
Now let’s ask why people have this mistaken notion that bubbles are easy to spot, and that Fama is deluded. I believe it is a cognitive illusion. People think they see lots of bubbles. Future price changes seem to confirm their views. This reinforces their perception that they were right all along…
Whatever happens to [a stock] over the next 50 years, the price movements will be interpreted through this congnitive illusion, this confidence that we can see patterns in graphs, even where they don’t exist. The “mountain peaks” will look like bubbles. In fact, you can generate a “stock graph” by just flipping coins repeatedly. And if you show the resulting graph to the average investor he will see patterns. It is all a cognitive illusion.
Here’s a bit more on pattern-recognition bias, that seems to incorporate some other biases that came to my mind.
We look for and see patterns where they don’t exist.
- We give more weight to recent events.
- We pay more attention to highly memorable events.
- Confirmation bias – once we have formulated a theory, we pay more attention to items that support it and ignore evidence that disproves it.
As to the first one, 2008 is still clear in our minds, much more so than Shiller’s missed bubble call in 1996 (and, no, the fact that the market went down sharply 4 years later does not count as a hit). As to the second one, busts that happen are far more memorable than busts that don’t occur–correct calls are going to be remembered, missed calls forgotten, and of course 1929 and 2008, as the two biggest economic crises of the past century are going to be remembered and disproportionately weighted in our thinking. As to the third, confirmation bias is endemic in human thinking about all matters–what would make any reader who’s come this far think it’s any different in this case?
About Those Cognitive Biases…
I know, people aren’t truly rational. We’re bundles of cognitive biases that infect all our thinking. That’s why I despise humanity, because I know that this true to a considerable extent. (To what extent depends on how strict our definition of rationality is, and that’s a contested issue.) Rationality is also a model, although to my on-going chagrin as a user of that model, some of its most fervent adherents forget that and assume its descriptive. It’s a really really useful model–it explains/predicts a lot of behavior very satisfactorily, like why something like 70% of people defect in the one-shot prisoner’s dilemma with a stranger. But it doesn’t explain everything, and it’s a model, not an empirically proved fact.
And I like empiricism, so I’m all gung-ho about cognitive psychologists and behavioral economists and (a small handful of) political scientists running lab experiments to test these things. I hope for a day when this knowledge is so thoroughly incorporated into predictive and functionally useful (e.g., simple enough) models that all of us social scientists adapt them.
But do they really disprove rationality? No, not really (at least not yet). They prove humans aren’t perfectly rational. They just prove that if humans really do have a foundation in rationality it doesn’t mean they’re always very good at it, that they have a variety of cognitive ticks that not infrequently impinge on the effectiveness of whatever rational tendencies they have. We can demonstrate this through game theory. Sure, lots of people don’t behave as predicted, but lots of people do. Some are pretty cold and ruthless about it, like the guy in one of my mentor’s studies on sharing who persuaded everyone in the group that they could trust each other if they all verbally promised to cooperate, and then he–like some of the others in the group–defected. Yet, making promises to groups of strangers does increase the frequency of cooperating, which isn’t strictly rational within the bounds of the game theory paradigm.
So let’s go back to Fama’s description early on. The EMH doesn’t require perfect rationality. Investors don’t have to have totally complete information, or all use it really well all the time, for the loose version of the assumptions to hold, and for markets to potentially–not necessarily, just potentially–be efficient. If the cognitive biases do not too severely–at whatever level “too severely” occurs–screw up investors’ thinking, then they don’t mess up the EMH model.
Or cognitive biases might completely undermine the EMH model, in at least two ways. First, it might be that cognitive biases are so pervasive that market prices rarely–and only randomly–approach efficient prices. I think that’s a reasonable hypothesis. However it’s not at all proven by the events of 2008. Those events are, to be sure, consistent with that hypothesis, but it’s far from any kind of definitive evidence.
And I don’t want to make it sound like I’m surreptitiously poo-pooing the cognitive biases research. I’ve been following it, although not as closely as I ideally would, for about 15 years now, and I’m persuaded that ultimately the social sciences have to incorporate it. Heck, I already do when I talk about political and policy processes. It’s just that saying people have these cognitive biases doesn’t mean their use of information is always wrong. Hell, if it was we couldn’t even talk sensibly about cognitive biases–we probably couldn’t even recognize them in the data.
And with effort, we can be trained to overcome them–probably not in all areas of our lives, but in specialized areas, which is how scientifical folks learn to be all scientificy. They’re critical to our understanding of people’s decision-making, but they aren’t everything. Rationality–non-biased thinking–is also critical to our understanding of people’s decision-making, but it’s not remotely everything, either.
The second way cognitive biases would undermine the EMH would be if people demonstrated that they could improve their rationality by training to overcome their cognitive biases–at least in this one specialized area; probably not in the rest of their lives–and thereby beat the market regularly by exploiting their knowledge of others’ cognitive biases.
Of course there’s the oddity that if that response became widespread, it would tend to support the EMH, if in an unexpected way.
So to be sure I take the issue of cognitive biases as a challenge to the rationality model very seriously, and I think that work is one of the most important areas of social science research today. But 2008 doesn’t prove it right and the EMH wrong, because it’s just one data point that might support that model, and it’s a data point that does not rebut the EMH.
Krugman’s Criticism
I’d like to respond to a series of criticisms here, but as I’ll explain below, I can’t right now. But I do want to address Krugman’s famous criticism of the model in 2009.
Discussion of investor irrationality, of bubbles, of destructive speculation had virtually disappeared from academic discourse. The field was dominated by the “efficient-market hypothesis,” promulgated by Eugene Fama of the University of Chicago, which claims that financial markets price assets precisely at their intrinsic worth given all publicly available information. (The price of a company’s stock, for example, always accurately reflects the company’s value given the information available on the company’s earnings, its business prospects and so on.)
I’m going to take his word that discussion of those things disappeared from academic discourse, because I simply don’t know myself. But notice the elisions in his description, which reads like the flawed investopedia definition. It’s fine as a rough pass, but when you’re critiquing something, it certainly behooves one to be rather less misleading. First, look at the final sentence–“the information available on the company’s earnings, its business prospects, and so on.” Ahem, if businesses mislead investors on that, then investors will be operating on flawed information, leading to flawed markets. The EMH itself says so–it’s not at all a radical model in that respect. And if that information is inaccurate, then, no, the stock will not be valued “precisely at their intrinsic worth.” They will be valued according to the available knowledge, which obscures their intrinsic worth.
Fama said this. It’s public information, but lots of people aren’t making use of it. I’m inclined to say that demonstrates an inefficient academic market.
Now let’s look a bit closer at the mortgage-backed securities. They were opaque, sure, but everyone knew they were ultimately based on averages, and as long as the market was going up the average would continue to go up. That information can rationally outweigh the information that you don’t know the specifics of the mortgages in that tranch.
And what happened when the information about their true fragility became public? Seems to me that investors reponded–quickly. Nothing irrational about their response at all.
Should they have seen it sooner? It’s arguable, but I’m willing to accept the assumption that they should have. So the strong version of EMH–that prices always instantly reflect new information–doesn’t seem to hold. Big deal–I don’t think most people actually took that seriously as a description of the real world, rather than just as the strictest form of the model. Oh, plenty of critics will tell the dumb EMH guys at Chicago all believe Jesus died for the salvation of the strong version, but, dammit, just go back and re-read Fama.
And, look, for those not in the academy–and maybe for someone who is–studying the pure model doesn’t prove one believes it’s truly descriptive of the world. Academics are funny that way; they’ll push a model to its limits and talk about how it functions at those limits, or even just how it would be predicted to function. And they might even find that in some cases it doesn’t actually fail in its pure model…which doesn’t mean they’re claiming it always works.
John Cochrane wrote an interesting, but surely less well known, response to that Krugman piece, in which he addresses Krugman’s thoughts on the EMH.
It’s fun to say we didn’t see the crisis coming, but the central empirical prediction of the efficient markets hypothesis is precisely that nobody can tell where markets are going – neither benevolent government bureaucrats, nor crafty hedge-fund managers, nor
ivory-tower academics. This is probably the best-tested proposition in all the social sciences. Krugman knows this, so all he can do is huff and puff about his dislike for a theory whose central prediction is that nobody can be a reliable soothsayer.Krugman writes as if the volatility of stock prices alone disproves market efficiency, and efficient marketers just ignored it all these years. This is a canard that Paul knows better than to pass on, no matter how rhetorically convenient. (I can overlook his mixing up the CAPM and Black-Scholes model, but not this.) There is nothing about “efficiency” that promises “stability.” “Stable” growth would in fact be a major violation of efficiency. Efficient markets did not need to wait for “the memory of 1929 … gradually receding,” nor did we fail to read the newspapers in 1987. Data from the great depression has been included in practically all the tests. In fact, the great “equity premium puzzle” is that if efficient, stock markets don’t seem risky enough to deter more people from investing! Gene Fama’s PhD thesis was on “fat tails” in stock returns
It is true and very well documented that asset prices move more than reasonable expectations of future cashflows. This might be because people are prey to bursts of irrational optimism and pessimism. It might also be because people’s willingness to take on risk varies over time, and is lower in bad economic times. As Gene Fama pointed out in 1970, these are observationally equivalent explanations. Unless you are willing to elaborate your theory to the point that it can quantitatively describe how much and when risk premiums, or waves of “optimism” and “pessimism,” can vary, you know nothing. No theory is particularly good at that right now. Crying “bubble” is empty unless you have an operational procedure for identifying bubbles, distinguishing them from rationally low risk premiums, and not crying wolf too many years in a row.
Again we see an economist who holds the EMH view pointing out that the criticisms of the EMH in relation to the crisis fundamentally misinterprets how the EMH supporters actually understand their own model.
Conclusion
I’d like to have added some points addressing some of the research criticizing the EMH. I haven’t for three reasons. First, as I noted, I’m not an expert in this area, and it will take me some more time to re-brush up on that. Second, it’s midnight, I have classes tomorrow, a chapter for my on-line text to write, and about 30 papers to grade, so it’s just not going to happen right now. Third, this post, at least, is already long enough.
If I have the time and energy, I’ll write such a post. Or maybe someone will do first so I don’t have to (J R–the OT accepts guest posts, and you’d surely do it better than I). At this point, though, it’s fair to critique me for not addressing all the critics’ responses to the EMH. I just can’t cover everything at one go.
And if, as I’ve claimed, I’m not an expert, why am I seemingly so confident when I’ve critiqued a fellow OTer for being confident without really demonstrating good knowledge of EMH? The first answer is that I can see the error the critics are making–if they’re making inaccurate statements about how EMH advocates understand their own model, I just can’t have confidence in them. But second, I’m not that confident. It’s an empirical issue–either the model has predictive power, or it doesn’t. Or, it has predictive power to some extent, but only to some extent. And I’ve discussed two ways in which it could be disproven, or at least undermined.
And here’s an example–just an anecdote–that persuades me people don’t always use information well. After 9/11, a friend of mine bought stock in a company that did some kind of airline security business. He was positive this company’s stock was going to skyrocket. His broker, to his credit, tried to talk him out of it, but my friend insisted. The stock tanked. Lots of people bought, not realizing that the increasing price was not evidence of a long term market value for the firm, but a reflection of everyone else’s post 9/11 assumptions. On the other hand, that stock corrected pretty quickly, too, so people didn’t, as a group, demonstrate excessive and long-lasting irrationality any more than they demonstrated any particular degree of rationality at the beginning/
And you might have noticed that I didn’t defend the EMH’s predictive accuracy in its stronger versions. Because I’m not that confident. But the person to whom I’m responding argued it was dead in even it’s weak form, so a defense of that form is relevant.
I want to conclude by coming back to the one crucial point, though. The primary, fundamental, prediction of the EMH is that you can’t reliably predict and beat the market. 2008 did not disprove that. You can’t make–I don’t think–a solid case in logic, one that respects social science standards for evidence, that the financial crisis did disprove that. And if it didn’t disprove that, it didn’t disprove the Efficient Markets Hypothesis. And also, to the extent the model is designed to test how markets respond when the assumptions are violated, then the model itself–in its strict form–has not been violated, because it doesn’t predict efficient markets will necessarily occur when assumptions are violated.
Because I have other writing, and papers to grade, and because I’m excessively irritable due to lack of sleep lately (which I’m stupidly compounding tonight), I probably won’t participate much in any discussion. I’ve said my piece here. I at least have made an effort to explain my position.
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Oh, and if James K or J R critiques me, listen to them. If they say I’ve gotten something wrong, I’m certainly going to be inclined to believe them.Report
The EMH as defined by “if enough information is widespread enough, an investor cannot consistently outperform the market” can only possibly be true to the extent that people behave as if it is not true.
Can a theory that becomes false if everyone believes it be described as true?
If I knew 20 stocks that were going to be worth $0.00 sometime within the next 20 years, how could I make money off of that?
Let’s say you have a hypothesis about the behavior of the market. Prices in the market fall by 22.6% in six and a half hours with no significant new available information. That is not enough to get you to reject your hypothesis. Is “Efficient Market Hypothesis” really a good name for your hypothesis?
Is it possible that Tiger Woods was no better than the average golfer over his career, but just benefitted from some good luck?Report
If I knew 20 stocks that were going to be worth $0.00 sometime within the next 20 years, how could I make money off of that?
Is that public information or not?
Let’s say you have a hypothesis about the behavior of the market. Prices in the market fall by 22.6% in six and a half hours with no significant new available information. That is not enough to get you to reject your hypothesis.
How would proposing a new–obviously untested–hypothesis be enough to get me to reject a prior hypothesis? That’s not really how hypothesis generation and testing work, is it?
Is it possible that Tiger Woods was no better than the average golfer over his career, but just benefitted from some good luck?
Is Tiger Woods’ success dependent just on having and using better information? I’ve seen this question asked with Michael Jordan in pace of Woods, but for practical persons let me shift to another basketball player, Larry Bird. Bird used to sometimes tell defender which hand he was going to shoot with–giving them the same information as himself–and then he’d score on them anyway. Obviously sports requires more than just information, so they’re a bad analogy.Report
Is that public information or not?
Say that it is – exactly that. It is publicly available information that the 20 stocks are going to $0.00 within the next 20 years, yet they are not at $0.00 now. How do I make money in this situation?
How would proposing a new–obviously untested–hypothesis
I was not proposing a new hypothesis. I was stating what happened on October 19, 1987.
Obviously sports requires more than just information
And making above-market returns investing doesn’t? Where is your evidence of this?Report
I accept the EMH. But I have just one question: Given that fund managers can’t reliably beat the market, just why the hell do they make so much money? Seems sort of scammy to me, like Dr. Oz bullshit alternative medicine scammy.Report
By “make money” I mean for themselves, rather than for their clients.Report
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xllA122l4_o&list=PLJAD4fRvfvUvJCb6JnmIqKmBgPUWmIPZH&index=3
@ 3:14Report
8% on a billion dollars is enough for your cut to be pretty huge, even if it’s well less than a percent.Report
1/10th AUMReport
Seems sort of scammy to me, like Dr. Oz bullshit alternative medicine scammy.
Well, I’d guess offhand that Dr. Oz makes more money at his bullshit alternative medicine gig than he ever did as a neurosurgeon…Report
“Volume”Report
And there’s also elements of survivor bias + a milder form of the perfect prediction scam
(though if there was anything that was destroyed or should have been in 08, it was that)Report
@road-scholar
There’s a reason why fund managers really dislike the Efficient Market Hypothesis, and why finance academics suggest investing in passive funds, which trade by formula rather than by relying on the talents of highly-paid fund managers.Report
It’s worth noting that index funds only work so well because there are so many active traders. If nobody was doing active trading, stock prices would be all out of whack and active traders could make a killing. With everyone doing active trading, it’s a sucker’s game.Report
@brandon-berg, the same thing occurred to me. It’s like the EMH works but only so long as a lot of people don’t believe it. Sort of like placebos.Report
It’s why economics is exactly like physics. The ideal gas law only works until helium decides it’s sick of the fishing balloons.Report
It’s like the EMH works but only so long as a lot of people don’t believe it.
It’s like poker, yeah? Bluffing only works against people who fold under pressure. But for the folks who don’t, there’s always bluffing that you’re bluffing. The iterations take us up to heaven.Report
@road-scholar
The key to understanding how the Efficient Market Hypothesis works (at least the semi-strong form) is that the people who are converting private information into public information are the people who can beat the market. That is a very small group of obsessive analysts who spend their days looking at a fairly small range of companies so that they become total experts on them.
The EMH is more about defining optimal trading strategies than explaining how those analysts make money.Report
The EMH is more about defining optimal trading strategies than explaining how those analysts make money.
I’ve been waiting for this, actually. At least, since my comment about theory and practice from a few days ago. Some of the quotations James cited in the OP come pretty close to this, but for my money not quite close enough.
So, EMH is an a priori (given backgrounders, to be sure) normative ideal, hence can’t be refuted. It need not even apply to the real world, yes? Except normatively?Report
The economic stuff is mostly over my head, but the math guy in me is a bit suspicious of the attribution of Buffett’s success to chance.
After all, it’s unlikely but possible that a fair coin flipped 50 times will result in 49 heads. But if the coin is truly fair, we’d expect the next fifty flips to be around 25-25, rather than 49-1 again. So is Buffett’s past performance a predictor of his future performance? Or is he no more likely to pick winners today than a million other investors? If it’s the former, then we should really be looking for a better explanation than the fact that sometimes there are outliers.Report
To understand Buffet, you have to look at his investing habits. He didn’t invest in hot stocks (most people rush to buy stocks when they’re at their peak). He purchased boring stocks when nobody else noticed them, and he held onto them, he is not a flipper playing the margins. Buffet also profited on the series of recessions we had over the years; when people panicked and dumped stocks for companies with sound fundamentals, he picked them up for cheap.
Buffet was patient and had enough wealth to not only ride out the troughs that ruined other people, but to profit from them.Report
Yeah. He’s said something to the effect of “The Time Horizon at Berkshire Hathaway is forever.”
Which, if you ask me, is freakin’ awesome.Report
A) You don’t know where in his 49 out of 50 streak Buffett is
B) He has underperformed the market in 4 of the last 5 yearsReport
his most interesting trait is his public persona. he’s got “one of the good ones” billionaire cred amongst people generally not in the habit of referring to any wealthy individual as anything other than a rapacious force of nature.Report
dhex,
“As good as they get” isn’t much of a compliment. Still it’s better than what people say about the Kochs.Report
A better example might be Soros. In the lead up to the bursting of the dot-com bubble, Soros (and a bunch of other people) recognized the bubble, indicating inefficiency, and their rational reaction was to sell short. However, simply recognizing the bubble was not enough to know when the bubble would burst, and Soros lost a lot of money as a result. So, from an EMH perspective, even in a bubble pricing was relatively efficient (that is, it had some efficiency, it just wasn’t absolutely effiicent).Report
I think it also matters that both Soros and Buffet have access to a lot of information the average Joe investor simply lacks. I can’t afford to go out and purchase an Forrester report on an industry I’m considering investing in next week; they both can easily do this. Hopefully, the managers of funds I might invest in can do this, too. But I know I will, at best, only have a very limited view of the information available that efficiently shapes markets.
Revealed information is often private research that’s for sale, not public information that’s readily available to average small-potatoes investors.Report
I think it also matters that both Soros and Buffet have access to a lot of information the average Joe investor simply lacks.
That’s important: if prices reflected all information, and were not merely relatively efficient (which, duh, that’s kind of what “price” means in a market), that is they didn’t merely contain some of the information, it wouldn’t matter that some people have more access to non-insider information than others, because all of that would already be reflected in the price.Report
So, maybe that’s where a lot of my skepticism is addressed.
As it’s been explained, the EMH suggests that there are no such thing as bubbles, or that bubbles cannot be reliably identified as such until after the fact–which seems suspicious to me as a layman. But is all it really saying is that you can’t predict WHEN a bubble is going to pop? Because that seems like a much more reasonable conclusion.Report
However, simply recognizing the bubble was not enough to know when the bubble would burst, and Soros lost a lot of money as a result.
John Maynard Keynes: “Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.” Soros and Buffett can remain solvent a heck of a lot longer than you or I can :^) They’re playing with money that has zero effect on whether the kids can go to college, or if the next mortgage payment gets made, or the next meal.Report
@alan-scott
As it’s been explained, the EMH suggests that there are no such thing as bubbles,
Well, no, it doesn’t really say that.
or that bubbles cannot be reliably identified as such until after the fact–which seems suspicious to me as a layman.
But this means that even if some correctly predicts–or “predicts”–a bubble thus time, it could just be because every time the market booms some folks start hollering “bubble.” Some of them, then, are going to holler at the right time. But will they be able to do it consistently and not yell it when it’s not a bubble? That’s what the idea–whether right or wrong–is getting at.
But is all it really saying is that you can’t predict WHEN a bubble is going to pop? Because that seems like a much more reasonable conclusion.
That’s an interesting thought. I think it’s actually saying more (again, rightly or wrongly) but perhaps that’s something like a minimal version of it? I don’t know, but it seems not unreasonable.Report
Alan,
it sounds like what you’re describing is the Greater Fool Theory, rather than the EMH.Report
Buffett’s performance may indeed be above-average due to skill, but a large portion of it may well indeed be perfectly attributable to chance.
Some part of it may be attributable to skill.
In any event, the part that is attributable to skill may still not outperform the market. Here’s an example:
Let’s say I’m perfectly capable of predicting 5% growth because I have the skill to always choose the fairly conservative but reliable economic winner.
Let’s say you have no skill whatsoever, but you place your bets entirely over the market. You hit some big winners when some penny stock becomes worth $100 in five years, but you lose an equal amount in the N penny stock bets you made that were all losers.
At the end of the ten years, we’ve both made 5% per year. The difference between us is that I’ve made the 5% every year, and some years you made 50% and others you lost your ass.
If what you *want* is a 5% gain every year, (assuming my skill level evaluation is correct) I’m the better person to choose as your fund manager, because you can fairly reliably say that your $100 will be worth $105 next year and $110.25 the year after that and so on.
If what you *want* is 5% gain over infinite years, the investment strategy doesn’t matter, because the scattershot strategy will, in the long run, produce the same result.Report
And a side comment: I really despise the way economists use the word “efficiency.” To my engineering-trained brain, efficiency is a measure of output given an input, basically bang for your buck. So if you tell me an engine is efficient I can infer that it consumes less fuel for a given output than a less efficient engine. If economists used the word the same way, an efficient market would be one with low transaction costs (the financial equivalent of friction).
I think the dichotomy between the way economists use that word and practically everyone else uses it contributes to a lot of misunderstanding around concepts like EMH.Report
That’s part of it.
But I think that there’s more: market’s correcting is a process, it takes time, and there is a lot of turmoil in that time; as we’ve witnessed over the last six years. I don’t think the problem is not trusting that the markets will (eventually) correct so much as how you handle the muck churned up in that process. This is, it seems to me, the real discussion going on here; liberals aren’t for the most part against capitalism and free markets; but they are not happy with they damage those churning events do to vulnerable people caught up in the churn.
The EMH assumes that over whatever period of time is necessary, things will correct; critiques rest on the delta of change and its costs to losers in the market through that process. This is a powerful-enough force that the appearance that risk had been eliminated drove the housing bubble; so I suspect that the fear of churn of market correction is a big concern of EMH fans.Report
My critique simply says “most public information is not read by enough investors to actually disseminate”. See ENRON, which put all their scams in the fineprint for investors to read.Report
I agree with RS that economics, as a discipline, uses a taxonomy that is (to the outside world) LOADED with normative connotations.
I suspect that this might be a problem with how economics views its own self, from a neuroscience standpoint… but that’s only a suspicion.Report
i want all the people in favor of child labor to start teaching their kids how to be little robber-barons, running their own little sweatshops in other countries.Report
@road-scholar
Re: efficiciency. I think you’d be interested in my long quote from Noah Smith, below. He comments on the use of the term efficiency in this instance. I snipped most of the quote, but you can follow the link for more.Report
In general, that is what it means in economics: Producing the maximum possible output for a given set of inputs and constraints. So we talk about Pareto efficiency (when no one can be made better off without making someone else worse off) and Kaldor-Hicks efficiency (when no one can be made better off without making someone else worse off by a greater margin) and we say that a policy is inefficient if it creates deadweight loss.
The way it’s used in the EMH is different, but it makes sense to me in a way I can’t quite articulate.Report
Well, yeah, @brandon-berg, but do you not see the normative assumptions built into those concepts? Particularly when you start from a base assumption of LF market capitalism and most particularly when you deny the concept of diminishing utility.
You like to accuse your ideological opponents of not understanding economics when the real issue is that we don’t share certain moral priors that have been smuggled into the discipline.
So basically I don’t care about Pareto efficiency. KH is more promising if diminishing utility is admitted as a prior. I mean it’s fine to talk about these things in the abstract, but when they become rhetorical points in a political argument then I have to start asking when “efficiency” became a moral value as opposed to a pragmatic measure.Report
aren’t you getting a little bit into “it’s called evolutionary THEORY” jesus on a dinosaur gotcha territory with this?Report
@road-scholar
I can understand your frustration, since we’re talking about 3 kinds of efficiency here, but they all have the same nickname.
The efficiency you’re talking about is referred to in the econ literature as Technical Efficiency. We don’t really talk about it a lot (its not our area of expertise after all), we just call it that to distinguish it form the other types.
Most of the time, when economists say “efficiency” they mean Allocative Efficiency. This is about how well market match supply to demand across the various goods and services that exist in an economy. But that’s not the kind we’re talking about here.
The “efficient” in Efficient Market Hypothesis is Informational Efficiency. This is about how well financial markets aggregate people’s information about the future into a forecast that is a best estimate, given the available data.Report
@james-k, it’s not that I’m really frustrated or confused particularly. I’ve studied econ, I practically, though not formally, minored in it in engineering school.
Here’s the thing… the word “efficiency” or “efficient” doesn’t really mean anything until you specify what you’re trying to accomplish. So I don’t have much objection to the uses of the term you outlined above since the adjective modifier makes it clear what task you are more or less efficiently pursuing. But regardless of the particular context the word carries a normative connotation such that “more efficient” is better than “less efficient.” And in general we seek more of the good and less of the bad, so it becomes, at least tacitly, a moral value, or at least sounds like one to outside observers who aren’t entirely informed of the disciplinary jargon or the fact that it’s being used in a purely descriptive sense.Report
@road-scholar
This is a common problem when technical jargon escapes into the general populace, case in point: “theory”.
I do intend to talk about allocative efficiency more, and what it means to pursue it as a policy goal. But I have quite a bit of writing to do before I’m ready to post on that.Report
I’m not sure I’ve ever met an economist who didn’t realize that utility was a value.Report
My understanding of EMH stems mostly from my father-in-law, who studied economics in Chicago after WWII on the GI Bill and helped found one of the big finance industries. I spent 30 years debating this stuff with him. And one of the lessons I got was that ‘market’ is, specifically, the stock market. It’s not the housing market; not privately-held companies, not global trade; it’s publicly-traded stocks.
So I have a great deal of apprehension about suggesting EMH is or is-not proved by the Great Recession; and I would never make that claim; too much of it rested on the message that if you don’t purchase a home now, you’ll be priced out forever, and homes are not publicly-traded stock.
I would argue that synthetic derivatives, as an opaque market, shielded information from people; it wasn’t just opaque, it could only be read by inference. If it’s proof of anything, it’s proof that to avoid damaging churn in economies, transparency and disclosure are essential; that unregulated markets are inefficient; not that efficient markets are wrong.Report
I agree with @zic here. Part of the problem that I see with this EMH conversation is that lots of people seem to want to treat it as a proxy for a whole free markets vs. regulation conversation. And that just doesn’t make much sense.
When it comes to international trade, immigration, labor markets, I am about as laissez faire as they come. And when it comes to things like utilities or health care or even commercial banking, I favor a very light regulatory touch. Financial markets though, are different and when it comes to financial markets I put a lot – not all, but a lot – of my thinking about other markets on the shelf.Report
Is the EMH an economic model, properly speaking?Report
In its weakest form it is not a model, it is just a fairly abstract theory about the relationship between asset prices, namely that they’ll be random. This is why even when there is excess volatility, say, adherents of the weak version can say, “But there is also some randomness, therefore markets are efficient.” There are models that can quantify this theory, with the addition of some assumptions, and the theory was actually developed in light of an actual mathematical model, the random walk theory, in finance.Report
@james-hanley
I appreciate the vote of confidence, but I have to say that financial economics is a bit outside of my wheelhouse. I am an international econ guy.
That being said, I tend to think that the EMH critics are over-playing their hand. There is truth to the notion that the idea of self-correcting financial markets had an undue amount of support in the years leading up to the global financial crisis. I stop short, however, of saying that deregulation is to blame for the crash or the resulting rescission. What happened in 2008 was a perfect storm of causality that traces its roots in a dozen different directions.
My problem with the EMH is that it does not appear to be falsifiable. Making a determination about whether a market is pricing efficiently requires some objective measure, which, as far as I know, does not exist. The only ruler that we have is time. With that in mind, I tend to think of the EMH as being most useful as a method of taxonomy. That is, we can talk about weak, semi-strong and strong market efficiency and use those concepts to identify how one financial market differs from the rest. For instance, holding US Treasury securities is about the closest thing to holding cash, so you would expect the market for US Treasuries to be pretty close to strong market efficiency and much stronger than the market for contingent convertible bonds, for instance.
As I said above, part of the problem is that people want to use this as a proxy fight in the larger ideological war and that never makes for good analysis. The real debate is not so much about regulation vs. deregulation or left vs. right. The real debate is about to what extent the set of biases and behavioral phenomena identified by behavioral economics renders the EMH false or whether those behaviors are small anomalies that markets work out over time. My guess is that the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
In practice, I do think that it is almost impossible to consistently beat the market, which is why any investing that I do, I do through passively managed funds. Successful strategies that beat the market are almost never pure price plays. Value investing, for instance, is about picking under-priced stocks, but its also about making money on dividends and by minimizing transaction costs. Even hedge funds that exist to exploit price movements rely on very small price discrepancies that don’t last very long. Think about playing black jack. The odds are in the houses favor, no matter what strategy you use. If you are some kind of walking computer, you can count cards and even the odds a bit, but that is still not a winning strategy. The winning strategy is to except that you are going to lose more than you win, but if you know the count, you can bet more and win more on the hands that are in your favor.Report
It strikes me there may be a bit of motte-bailey action going on on this topic. The M&B model, though, I realized, suffers from an assumption of a unified strategic decision maker, and that doesn’t really apply to the battlefield of ideas as it actually plays out in modern media. There’s not just one actor that speaks for everyone making roughly associated arguments. So at one and the same time, people can truthfully say they are responding to people who were arguing for an undersupported bailey set of positions on a particular topic (even if they don’t realize it’s a bailey and not a motte), while at the same time some on the other side can truthfully say say that they’ve all along only for the motte, and that only the motte is the motte, it doesn’t include any bailey, and they don’t care about any bailey anybody else is talking about.
I wonder if the EMH has suffered from having a number of ill-informed people arguing for a bailey around it for many years, so that now the debate around it really is mostly on the bailey, to the extent that many arguing for it (the bailey version) don’t even know what the motte is, and likewise those arguing against that bailey. The question becomes, if combatants on both sides tell you they care the most about the bailey they’ve been arguing about, is there really anything wrong with having that argument, even if a label is being wrongly applied (according to the terms of the motte) to the idea being argued over? And if there is something really wrong with it, whose responsibility is it most to correct the terms and substance of that debate? What if the developers of the motte idea, while continuing to personally argue only for the motte, have personally benefitted from the great popular interest that has developed around the debate over the bailey that has grown up around it?Report
@michael-drew Your guess here seems simultaneously insightful, likely, and probably inevitable. Put in your terms, I could have said the exact same thing five years ago during the healthcare debate when everyone was talking about how health insurance worked. I wonder if that isn’t what happens whenever we have any fields that require special expertise be part of s public policy discussion.
I should probably do a broader post on this, but one of the things I am starting to think about a lot is that this notion that the internet making knowledge free and easily accessible leads to a smarter and wiser populace might be very, very wrong. I’m even beginning to wonder if it might not lead to the opposite.Report
I wonder if I might not tend to agree, and whether I should fear I may be part of the problem. Indeed that we all who want to discuss civic matters on which we are non-expert must inevitably be, to some extent.Report
Most of the arguments over economics in public policy have the motte-bailey problem.
Economists, whether Keynsian or Austrian, say the motte of X; policy wonks push the bailey of A,B…n based on the logic.
Think about why we are even having this thread; It was written by a non-economist, and commented on by non-economists. Why? Because public policy, massive decisions about what party or candidate to support, are at issue.
This is why I keep coming back to a moral theory- about what normative concepts we want to adopt. It really doesn’t matter to me if the EMH is true or not. Its like laypeople arguing over the hockey stick graph- everyone becomes a jailhouse lawyer, an instant expert in matters they are actually clueless in.
But moral theory is actually accessible to everyone- you don’t need a divinity degree to talk about it- we are all gifted with a sense of moral correctness, of justice and injustice.
What matters is whether the outcome of policy is just or unjust, or results in greater or less human misery or fulfillment.Report
I am skeptical on this. Most of the time that I hear someone arguing policy from the standpoint of morality or justice, it’s just plain bunk. We all have moral intuitions, but many of those intuitions are subject to the same sort of psychological and behavioral problems that plague economic behavior and many of them are just plain wrong.Report
All well and good LWA but it elides the basic problem.
In order to debate if policy A producing outcome X is morally good and desirable we have to first establish that policy A -will- produce outcome X. It’s in that latter assertion that most of the debate is raging.Report
Let alone the debate of whether forcing someone to follow policy X creates more than a negligible amount of moral wrong (or even enough moral wrong to negate the good caused by policy X).Report
“we have to first establish that policy A -will- produce outcome X”
Exactly so; and just like with climate change, minimum wage, or foireign policy there is plenty of need for technical experts to opine.
But most of the debate isn’t raging among the experts; what underlies most of the debate among laypeople is moral precepts.
For instance- is the current debate over health care reform one of which approach best reaches the end goal of universal coverage?
No, it isn’t. The debate is really about whether universal coverage is a desirable goal.
Likewise, is debate over economics about the best way to reduce the wealth inequality? Or is it whether wealth inequality is a moral good, bad, or neutral thing?Report
Maybe we’re reading different articles/threads but all of this EMH debate and economic theory debate seems to me to be people arguing about how economics work; not whether certain economic outcomes are desirable.Report
We probably are reading different things.
But just as a hotly debated article on global warming is almost never commented on by climatologists or physicists, the articles on EMH are almost never by economists; they are- (like this one)- written and debated by laypeople, who are bringing their own moral axes to grind.
The EMH is just a proxy for the real argument.Report
I can’t speak for others but I’m not proxying for any policy issues because with the weak version if EMH that’s all I’m willing to make a defense if, I don’t see any certain policy implications.
What I’m really targeting is hubris.Report
My problem with the EMH is that it does not appear to be falsifiable.
I think that’s a stronger argument than, and one that excludes, the “it’s been falsified” argument.Report
You are the only one who used the word “falsified” in the comments to the last post.Report
2008 was one of the final nails in the coffin of the EMH,
Of course you didn’t mean falsified, or debunked, or proven wrong, or anything else that might smack of falsification. You meant…?Report
I meant dead, as I said on that thread (seriously, at this point it’s like talking to a child ). Since it’s not falsifiable in its weakest form (something I also said on that thread; see child, talking to), I wouldn’t say it’s falsified. I would say that its viability as a guide to practical models of pricing is nil, and its theoretical utility is, as even its supporters seem to admit, that of a useful heuristic, an ideal observer model against which to contrast actual markets’ various inefficiencies, and perhaps help explain them (is out ltm, herding, risk-aversion, a lack of speculative investment, etc.?).
Seven years ago its supporters were all semi-strong and this theory is everything.Report
I’m just puzzled as all hell how an idea can be dead when so many members of a discipline still think it’s live. And why anyone should take the word of a guy so far outside that discipline?
Do me a big ol’ favor. Go over to Sumner’s blog, tell him the idea’s dead, and tell him like you told James K that he obviously learned about it in grad school and hasn’t followed it since.
Let me know how that goes.Report
But isn’t part of what the OP is saying that it wouldn’t really be a problem if the EMH weren’t falsifiable, at least not for the purpose that the EMH is really meant to be used. I.e., that it’s basically just an assumption about markets with perfect information that’s meant to be use to study the effects that imperfect information has on actual markets? Does it make particular predictions about how various kinds of imperfect information (distributions) will in fact affect markets? You can study how information affects markets by starting with the EMH without needing to have it confirmed or falsified that the EMH is correct in what it says about idealized markets. It probably would be interesting to figure out if the what the EMH says about ideal markets ought to be right, but shouldn’t that be theoretical work? (Was Shiller’s critique of it mostly theoretical or was it empirical?) Regardless, it doesn’t seem like a central question for those using the EMH as a background assumption to study information effects.
What does seem to be worth hashing out are claims by people who aren’t the keepers of the True EMH Flame that the EMH actually predicts that markets will tend to be very close to perfectly efficient, because information in them tends to be good enough to satisfy the conditions to actually make the assumption of the EMH hold for real markets. Can anyone deny that that claims like that, whether inspired by the EMH or in fact claiming that it holds that to be the case (I don;t think that’s all that important a distinction in practice) have come down from many quarters over the years? Is there any reason not to have big fights over them?Report
Ideal gases.
“Assume a spherical cow.”
That sort of thing. Except when it makes its way into pricing models that are used by actual people to allocate money. Then, you know, it’s not just a theory about ideal asset markets.Report
“My problem with the EMH is that it does not appear to be falsifiable. ”
Neither is the theory of gravity.
Oh, sure, it’s conceivable that there could be done some experiment that disproves the theory that masses are mutually attractive. But any time someone seems to have shown this, it turns out that there was some perturbation–electromagnetic force, solar pressure, inaccurate measurement, failure to take frictional losses into account, improper experiment design.
And it’s conceivable that there’s some reason why prices don’t accurately reflect the rational decisions of consumers based on the information available to them. But any time someone seems to have shown this, it turns out that there was some perturbation–incorrect or incomplete information, unexpressed preferences, government intrusion skewing costs.
EMH is a law just like the law of gravity. “Oh, but I can’t write an equation for prices the way that I can for gravitational attraction!” Right, but that equation for gravity is the result of a curve fit to experimental data. And it involves a lot of simplifying assumptions; imagine trying to write an equation for gravitational attraction when every bit of mass has its own gravitational constant, and a different power-law relationship to every other bit of mass in existence.Report
Jim,
only for certain scales. There are research papers out there disagreeing with our current formulation of gravity, as it really doesn’t experimentally fit the data for spiral galaxies without having to invoke squirrely things like dark matter.Report
Even those weird ideas and alternate theories still take it as given that mass attracts mass. They aren’t going after the basic notion, just how it’s expressed; what’s constant, what’s not, whether other forces are involved.
Just like EMH. “Does this behavior appear irrational? Nonsense, all behavior is rational. There must be information that is not apparent to an observer. If you find it, you will understand why that decision was made.”Report
So you’re saying that what we have is an apparent phenomenon like gravity – that all prices appear to accurately reflect the rational decisions of consumers based on the information available to them in the same way that mass always seems to attract mass? Btw, is that all the EMH says? That prices respond to consumers who have some information or whatever?Report
Yes, that’s what I’m saying.
I’m also saying that it’s insufficient in and of itself as a predictor for what prices would actually be, just like “mass attracts mass” is insufficient as a predictor for what will happen when I let go of a watermelon. I figure it will go down, because other things have gone down in similar circumstances. But if it hovers three feet above the ground, I don’t say “oh wow, looks like the law of gravity was bullshit all along”, I look for the guy playing silly buggers with strings.Report
GRAVITATION, n. The tendency of all bodies to approach one another with a strength proportion to the quantity of matter they contain— the quantity of matter they contain being ascertained by the strength of their tendency to approach one another. This is a lovely and edifying illustration of how science, having made A the proof of B, makes B the proof of A.
The Devil’s Dictionary, by Ambrose Bierce
(It’s a fair criticism. Classical physics has no explanation for why inertial mass and gravitational mass are identical, though general relativity avoids this problem by describing gravity geometrically.)Report
Not everyone agrees, naturally, but I do. I always think of some of the assumptions of physics, such as a universe without friction. We all know that objects in motion don’t really stay in motion forever, that they are in fact affected by real-world forces, but nobody says (I hope), “Newton’s first law is sooooooo stupid.”
Newton’s First Law:
An object at rest stays at rest and an object in motion stays in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force.
That is, the reason we don’t say that Newton’s First Law is stupid is that we have taken the time to read it all the way through.Report
This is only somewhat related, but if we’re talking about financial markets I have a question for the group. Does it provide any useful information to anyone for the news to report daily fluctuations in the Dow, Nasdaq, and so forth? If you’re watching financial markets to get a sense of the overall health of the economy, then it’s an indirect indicator at best and any given day will reflect far more noise than signal. if you’re interested in the health of your portfolio, again, you want to know the average movement over the course of months or years, not a day. And if you’re trading stocks in such a short time horizon that a day’s movement matters, you want to know about your particular stocks, not the overall movement of an index.
As far as I can tell, this is completely useless information, yet it is faithfully reported on a daily basis by all of the major papers, networks, and NPR. Heck, they even frequently provide us with more detail than that, telling us that the market was low in the morning then rallied or what have you. Why is there a consensus that this is a good use of scarce broadcast time?Report
The DOW is a stupid average, and shouldn’t be used as a measure of the market or the economy as a whole (worse, they do change what they put in it). S&P 500 is okay, and it’ll tell you something about how the war in Mexico is going. Nasdaq is a decent measure of “how is tech doing”.
I believe these prices,as reported, do some fun things to consumer confidence — which is why your press barons report on them.Report
My question is whether or not daily reporting on these indexes make sense, not whether the indexes have any value at all. I have no problem with the notion of reporting this stuff on a weekly or monthly basis, similar to how we report things like unemployment statistics.Report
The same reason that newspapers carry the baseball scores. It’s what the fans enjoy reading.Report
<Tongue-in-cheek>
If they didn’t have indices to report daily, the automatons that generate the headlines for the business section of the general form “Markets [higher/lower] on [random event of the day]” wouldn’t be able to do their job. I swear that’s how those lead stories get written and headlined. Sometimes it’s some random theory about the market rather than a news event. If the indices drop after three up days, somebody is going to run a story headlined “Markets lower on profit-taking”.
</Tongue-in-cheek>Report
What are they going to say, “Market up today due to random fluctuations in the aggregation of millions of idiosyncratic decisions”? That would violate the basic laws of physics^H^H^H^H^H^H^H economics!Report
Michael,
You should see what they come up with for King Day. Or Rosh Hashanah, or other days when most of the Live Traders are off.
“Markets go crazy when we only use automated systems. Will correct tomorrow.”Report
Alternative:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory
Note that nearly all stocks are worth more than their current assets — you also price in future earnings.Report
A couple things. First, the posturing comment was not to your defending the EMH. That’s all well and good. It was that both you and James, as is often the case in discussions of economics, responded to my saying that evoking the EMH to explain 2008 was ironic, by simply saying that I didn’t understand EMH. That was posturing.
Second, to this:
The research program of the EMH is not to prove that markets are efficient.
So when someone says, “the model’s stupid, people don’t have all the information and markets aren’t efficient,” that is not a refutation, nor even a critique, of the EMH.
This was all well and good in 1969, when he wrote that, and before the EMH became not only a research program but accepted dogma in actual practical (not theoretical or merely research) models of financial asset pricing, and therefore actually drove behavior. There is a reason some people (and not just Krugman) blame the EMH for 2008, and that’s because those models. For an example of a description of the embeddedness of the EMH (from):
So people aren’t saying the model was stupid, people are saying the model led people to behave suboptimally, and suboptimally in a way that had dire consequences. Now, you can dispute that, though you haven’t really done so here, but saying, “It’s just a research program” with a quote from the 60s is just wrong.Report
If you want to say the whole thing was falsified, then you have to deal with the whole thing, not just the parts that suit you.
I’m not the guy that tried to lump all of it together.Report
Excess volatility and short and potentially long-term correlations show that asset prices don’t follow a random walk, and bubbles show that not all public information is in the prices (this is why people can see that there’s a bubble). If all you want to do is say, “OK, now it’s just a research tool, a heuristic, not something we actually believe and we’re not really going to set prices based on it because after 2008 we’d be insane to do so,” that’s cool. I doubt even the most ardent anti-EMH economists would care. Hell, they’d probably agree with you that it’s pretty useful in that regard, particularly if you can come up with a measure of relative efficiency.Report
Excess volatility and short and potentially long-term correlations show that asset prices don’t follow a random walk, and bubbles show that not all public information is in the prices (this is why people can see that there’s a bubble).
I’ve addressed all that, but instead of addressing my response to it you just repeat it as though it’s self-evidently true. An intellectual tour de force.Report
As far as I can tell, you don’t touch on long-term memory or short term correlations really at all, and your own comment on volatility amounts to this:
Krugman writes as if the volatility of stock prices alone disproves market efficiency,
It’s not the very existence of volatility, it’s excess volatility, volatility that causes deviations from randomness, that is the problem for EMH models.
I am not an expert enough to educate you about these things myself, but ’cause I’m a nice guy, I’ll do you a solid and link you to an actual lecture on the subject by Schiller himself (powerpoint and transcript here):
Now you’ll know what you’re talking about. Enjoy. (P.S., you can watch all of the course lectures there, I believe. I watched his 2011 course series a couple years ago, which includes another discussion of EMH, embedded below.)
Report
It’s not the very existence of volatility, it’s excess volatility
Maybe. I’m willing to accept that as a possibility. I’ll take a look at it. But I want to note the difference between us here: Shiller says it, and you take it as indisputable truth. The EMH folks say no, but I’ll take a look at it and consider it.
You do understand, don’t you, that Fama and Shiller co-won the Nobel the same year for conflicting theories? So just pointing out that Shiller says it is not sufficient to settle his argument with Fama I could as easily just point to Fama and act like his saying something is sufficient to settle his argument with Shiller. But neither of us was trained that way.
Let’s flip this around, and talk in the abstract for a moment. Two high profile psychologists, Smith and Jones, with conflicting theories, each claiming to have a considerable amount of evidentiary support, each with lots of other psychologists in agreement with them. An economist reads up on them to some extent, enough to be an educated amateur, but not enough to claim actual expertise–admittedly not enough to educate others–and pronounces with absolute certainty that Smith’s theory–still supported by a substantial number of respected psychologists–has had the final nail driven in its coffin, for this set of reasons given by Jones. Another psychologist who thinks Smith’s argument still has some value says to the economist, “you don’t understand this very well” (that’s the proxy figure for James K, or a Sumner, etc., not me–in this scenario I’m just another educated amateur; that is, I could be dead wrong ). The economist replies, “You must not have studied this since grad school, because you obviously don’t know what Jones says.”
What are the odds the economist in that story is right? What are the odds he really understand the whole debate better than the psychologist? What would you wager in his favor, given even odds? When the economist admits he can’t really explain the theory or rebuttal of it well, but it’s indisputable that he’s right, are you going to think he’s acting like a professional scholar?Report
Schiller and Fama are not the only participants.
It’s also a great illustration of the weirdness of economics as a science: economists get taught that it is the most empirically supported theory in economics, or even all of the social sciences, while the data and conceptual arguments against it are easily found, not because it is in fact the best supported, but because a particular theoretical paradigm is so dominant that they can get away with it. It’d be like going to school in France in the late 17th century and being told that Cartesian vortex-based astophysics were established empirical reality even as Newton was telling the world how he got that bump on his noggin.
OK, that’s hyperbole, but given the economists’ penchant for delusions of the discipline’s scientific grandeur, I don’t feel bad about it.
Chicago is the late 20th century equivalent of the Hegelian in the German universities during the fist half of the 19th century. That’s not hyperbole.
And remember, this started because I sneered at James for suggesting that the EMH explained ’08, when I think it’s pretty clear now that ’08 only made the EMH a more contentious issue among the actual experts (if you look at stuff from the 90s, you’ll already find puerile calling it one of the most contentious issues in economics, even if they forgot to note this in New Zealand econ programs; there’s a reason they both won the fake Nobel). Evoking it the way he did pretty ironic.
Also, the story Dave linked is pretty good, if you haven’t read it.Report
Schiller and Fama are not the only participants.
And of course no one has suggested otherwise.
I sneered at James for suggesting that the EMH explained ’08,
Which is not what he said.
when I think it’s pretty clear now that ’08 only made the EMH a more contentious issue among the actual experts
Sure, no disagreement on that.
there’s a reason they both won the fake Nobel).
Nobody said differently. You’re the only one who’s condemning just one side.
even if they forgot to note this in New Zealand econ programs;
The analogy was designed to get you to step outside yourself and see how astounding your hubris is.
And that’s really the issue here; not that you don’t find the EMH arguments convincing–you’ve got respectable company there–but that as a scholar in one discipline you feel competent to pronounce so authoritatively upon another discipline to which you’ve given minimal formal study. That’s not being scholarly.Report
Chris,
as far as I know, that seems to mirror the schools of CBT and Freudian psychoanalytics in psychology/psychiatry. Ne’er the twain shall meet, and each one is firmly convinced the other is just plain wrong.Report
Well, you’ve gone from saying I don’t have any idea what I’m talking about to agreeing with the initial point that led you to say it, and merely saying I’m not being very scholarly. So at least that’s progress.Report
So this is going to be a “talk to me like I’m stupid” question since I don’t understand this debate enough to have much of a position; if pressed, I’d say that the EMH, at least the softer versions, is obviously true to the point of being close to a tautology, but not really useful outside an academic context – a measuring stick or perhaps a taxonomy as @j-r indicates.
In any event, my question is why the EMH is or was necessary for the “major theoretical models used in finance, including the Capital Asset Pricing Model and the Arbitrage Pricing Theory,” such that it “represents the basis for the pricing of all financial securities, including that of all forms of derivative products.”
It seems to my completely uninformed mind that, in my very minimal understanding of these concepts, any reliance on the EMH would mean looking to the current market price for the asset in question. Any calculations stemming from that market price would be based on assumptions outside of the EMH, right?
So my question then is: why do we need the EMH to use current market price of an asset? Isn’t the current market price sort of the only reasonably objective and readily calculable measure, however imperfect it may be?
The paper you link to concludes by indicating that there is a need for an alternative finance theory, but doesn’t indicate that any such alternatives exist, much less indicate why such alternatives would be more consistently reliable. So if the problems stemmed from relying too heavily on current market pricing to value assets and we don’t have any proven, objective, transparent, and readily calculable alternatives to current market pricing, isn’t it more likely that we’re relying so heavily on those prices because they’re the only thing we have to an objective, transparent, and readily calculable valuation than it is that we’re relying on them only because of a less-than-50 year old academic theory?
I know, for instance, that the term “fair market value” has been around in the law for at least 100 years, has always been defined as a price that a willing buyer would pay to a willing seller, and has always seemingly been understood to have a strong preference for then-current publicly traded market prices where those prices were available.Report
I’d say that the EMH, at least the softer versions, is obviously true to the point of being close to a tautology, but not really useful outside an academic context
To the extent that the EMH says that prices reflect available information, it is tautologically true. In well-regulated markets, that’s what prices do (as opposed to being set by the government, say, or being arbitrary, or involving cheating as in a Ponzi scheme, say). However, that’s not all that the EMH says. It also says that it contains so much information that it is impossible to predict future prices from historical (including current) prices. That is, that future prices will vary randomly (there are different ways to quantify this, and statistically it turns out to be a really difficult quetstion to pose, much less to answer, which is why there’s still any controversy at all theoretically). In this case, it is only tautologically true if your definition of price is that it includes all information.
As for an alternative finance theory, there are fairly well specified, but perhaps not well-tested models (I’ll let someone who actually studies finance talk about them, ’cause I don’t know them well, just that they exist via discussions of the EMH). Generally, there are the behavioral models (e.g. this, this, and this) that James mentions, as well as “technical analysis,” but these can lead to multiple different quantitative approaches. Quantitatively, the random walk model (essentially the EMH quantified, though it predates the EMH) has as competitors evolutionary models (e.g., models that predict that markets become more efficient over time), models with long-memory (because one of the ways it appears stock prices violate efficiency is over long periods, according to these models because prices have a long-term effect on future prices), fractal models, and from what I can tell, a battle between the EMH models and non-EMH models on what accounting for risk aversion means. I can’t say much about any of these, because I only know of them from discussions of EMH. I read the after-battle reports (for lay folk), I don’t watch the battles as they play out.
Man, I hope all that html works.Report
Thanks, @chris – first, the HTML worked, so well done. I guess I’m still not understanding why the EMH view that future prices are unpredictable would impact the above-referenced models beyond telling them to use current market pricing as a starting point. In fact, wouldn’t EMH hold that doing anything more than that to value an asset is folly?
Again – this is a talk to me like I’m stupid question. I minored in Econ and generally get Econ theories, but the financial markets are generally beyond me. My general sense in that department is that those markets really are unpredictable and that the very well paid analysts (many of whom I went to college with) whose job it is to beat the market really aren’t very good at that.Report
Man, they’re beyond me, too.
The weak version explicitly says that you can’t predict future prices from current ones (that’s relative, of course: tomorrow’s prices will be close to today’s most of the time, it will just fluctuate in unpredictable ways).Report
@chris
I think this goes to what you’re saying.
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2013/10/how-shiller-helped-fama-win-the-nobel/
Also, while I haven’t kept up on the reading over the years, there seem to be some significant discrepancies between the way some economists look at this and people in finance, especially money managers that reject the random walk theory root and branch.
I enjoyed the post and will try to comment on it later. I’m out and about today.Report
That was pretty fun.Report
The problem that I see with the EMH is that it does a lot better job of accurately reflecting reality when nothing else that is interesting is going on.
When the only people playing the stock market are the Sunday morning show talking head types, it does pretty good. When taxi drivers are giving passengers stock tips? We are now in crazytown and the EMH no longer applies. The dumb money creates churn and irrationality (and the market can remain irrational longer than something something) and only once the dumb money has settled (IRAs, for example) then can the market get back to having the only players be the Sunday morning show talking head types and the EMH goes back to applying.
The problems in the last 30ish years or so (1986, the internet bubble, the housing bubble) were all caused by dumb money.
So when the dumb money gets in, you should probably get out. Well, not right away, of course… there’s going to be a wave going up and you’re going to want a piece of that.Report
The problem that I see with the EMH is that it does a lot better job of accurately reflecting reality when nothing else that is interesting is going on.
This is when stocks do follow a random walk: when absolutely nothing is going on.Report
Well, it’s one of those things where once the lumpenproletariat learns about the EMH, the EMH ceases to accurately reflect the market. Once the lumpenproletariat lose their money, the EMH slowly settles back into an accurate reflection.Report
Here’s a nice blog post that avoids being either a pro or anti EMH idiot, and gratifies me by touching on the behavioral econ stuff that I talked about.Report
…And the link in the Update there goes to some of the terminological discussion that’s been happening in this thread.Report
Warning, anecdote ahead. Ten or so years ago, I had some money that needed to be invested. Playing with historical data for the mid-cap stock index, I found a timing pattern which allowed movement in and out of the market about twice per month, using mutual funds that had been constructed to allow trading at that sort of frequency, which produced market-matching returns but with much lower volatility. I traded for three years using that model, with the same result (market or better returns, much lower volatility) before the pattern disappeared back into the noise.
I looked at it from a bunch of different statistical directions. The most telling, IMO, was the result that said the probability that the returns for the days I was in the market and the returns for the days I was out of the market were drawn from the same distribution was very small. I ran my analysis past a couple of friends who are practicing PhD economists. Both agreed the pattern was real, and clearly violated all of the forms of the EMH. One of them traded a piece of his retirement using the model for the same three years I did. The other suggested that, based on when on the calendar the model had me in the market, it was predicting periods when the big mutual funds were likely to be moving money in and out.Report
Addendum. The same pattern appeared to a lesser degree in the S&P 500 index. It didn’t appear at all in the Dow 30.Report
Because Diamonds aren’t a girl’s best friend!Report
But it seems to me that the model incorporates the ideas of bubbles and busts–they’re part of the random walk of the market
Can you provide evidence that markets in general exhibit random walk characteristics? Because most analyses contend the distributions have fat tails — and precisely because of the bubbles and busts.Report
I think people are–understandably–overinterpreting the “random” concept. I just came to this realization that some people are reading the term more precisely than it’s necessarily meant, and it’s really the fault of writers (including me now, I guess) who aren’t explicit that the term is being used loosely. That is, random walk is used casually, but as far as I can tell, it’s been known that it’s not truly random in a mathematical sense, so much as just not readily predictable.
As a relevant addendum, see my extensive quote from Noah Smith, below.Report
Here’s Noah Smith, a guy who often tends to disagree with people I agree with, on the EMH. I’m just grabbing a few quotes, but I recommend his whole post. He’s another person who’s taking a balanced approach on it.
Report
Seems like an investor ought to use the EMH as a null hypothesis, and require some decent confidence that it isn’t happening, before he chooses to invest. (cited example about lead painted toys — look at time-averaged (because random) stock price both before and after release of data. If there’s no statistical difference, then one can reasonably conclude that the market hasn’t priced in a good “lead toys” national news story)Report
You don’t know what “null hypothesis” means.Report
Smith is awesome. He does (obviously) tend to take up for the basic ideas of his profession against outsiders from the left pretty often, so this isn’t unusual for him. He writes this kind of post pretty often. When he’s warring those on the right in his profession it’s (seemingly) done mostly within the bounds of professional disagreement inside the field.
There is no econblogger who I think does a better job at it than Noah Smith.Report
it’s (seemingly) done mostly within the bounds of professional disagreement inside the field
I’m inclined to agree.Report
So here’s my stupid question:
If the EMH (or RMI) is right, and it means basically “You shouldn’t think you can beat markets that incorporate good information in the future, basically ever,” what are we supposed to learn from that more than that we’re probably idiots or at least irrational to decide to pick individual stocks or other assets rather than buy market indexes? Smith says that, “personal investing [… is] the single most important way that you will probably participate [in] financial markets. But is that actually what all the storm und drang over this is about? Have people claimed there are broader lessons to be learned from this that other people take as more significant for them than the strict investment advice it seems to give (since to the extent they invest, many probably already do incorporate Fama the Younger’s insight just as a matter of employing a competent investment advisor)? Should people make such claims about broader lessons (possibly – duh duh DUH – policy lessons) to take from the EMH? Should we take such claims seriously?
I’m not sure Smith’s discussion there really tracks or addresses the stakes in the discussion he is addressing that people are actually interested in on this topic.Report
I hope James K writes his post on EMH, but I’m not sure if there is much more to learn. Strong endorsement, eh?
But it’s an important enough lesson on its own, perhaps. I’m too lazy to look it up again right now, but one blogger I found talked about teaching finance students, who all think they’re going to make their gajillions beating the market. I think Smith’s on board with that. If EMH does nothing more than make us aware of how cognitive biases mislead us into thinking we can regularly beat markets it’s still a valuable theory, and certainly not “dead.” But I’m just a political scientist, so maybe I’m wrong and economists like Noah Smith really should let a psychologist tell them what theories they should and should not teach their finance students.Report
But I think people nevertheless have acted through the years like there is much more to learn. That’s where I think all the heat around it comes from. But maybe I’m concluding from the fact that there’s so much heat around it that people have acted that way (and said as much). Do you have an opinion on that?Report
To complicate things, “the EMH” says nothing about how long it takes for the market to process information. So even if an EMH happens to be true at one frequency (say, daily), it might not be true at the 1-second frequency.
There are people being paid handsomely to write software that recognizes new patterns that may persist for only a few seconds, trade on them, and then look for the next pattern. To be competitive in that business requires you to beat the “slower” people to the trade. It’s profitable enough that some of the big high-frequency traders in London and New York paid for their own trans-Atlantic fiber cable because it would be 5.2 milliseconds faster than the cables everyone else uses.Report
In first-person shooters, those people are called “LPBs” (low-ping bast*rds) because their shorter information loop gives them a critical edge.
That doesn’t even get into the stuff the real HFT’s are doing, the ones who actually work inside the regular trade loop to steal money. I’m sorry, I mean “provide much needed liquidity”. It just looks like a table rake to the uninformed, because apparently providing that liquidity is ridiculously lucrative.
Seriously, I don’t know what you’d call the US stock market, but “transparent” does not come to mind. “Gambling” does.Report
“Gambling” does.
It’s really kind of surprising how much financial literature — at least popularized accounts — openly refer to the lead-up to the 2007-8 financial crisis as too many banks and shadow banks “all making bets in the same direction.”Report
Michael,
the problem was, they got so busy betting they forgot to figure out who was the designated bagholder. And give them a golden parachute.Report
First of all, people should realize that the EMH is misnamed – it’s not really a hypothesis, it’s not about “efficiency” in the economic sense of the word, and it’s not unique
In other words, the Habsburgs should be running it.Report
My colleague is an expert on the Hapsburgs. I’ll ask him to explain this to me. 😉Report
Or you can make your holiday plans for NYC and I can explain it to you. 😉Report
Or I can compare answers, and whomever gives me a more intetesting one wins a bottle of Oregon Pinot Noir.Report
There is an old saw that the Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire in any meaningful sense of those words. It was a loose confederation of Germans, many of whom weren’t Catholic post-Reformation, and in any event operating without much in the way of papal support. But it did have lots of Habsburgs in charge.Report
Nicely done, James. I wish I could add something to the conversation, but this is pretty far outside my wheelhouse at the moment (except insofar as it treats modeling in general).Report
Generally true for me also, but that doesn’t stop me from expounding on one of Cain’s Laws™: Any situation in which it is easier to become wealthy by manipulating financial instruments than by producing the underlying good sand services will end badly.Report
I’m eagerly awaiting your modeling post, by the way. Quit teasing me and get it done already.Report
Picking up on something Chris said: “reflect[ing] available information… [is]… what prices do (as opposed to being set by the government, say…)” Let’s not forget that one of the most important prices in the financial system, the short-term interest rate, is set by government fiat, not by the action of buyers and sellers. Since adding full employment to its mandate (previously just low inflation) the Fed has become a serial bubble machine.Report
http://www.lewrockwell.com/2014/11/peter-schiff/whither-stocks-without-qe/Report
@major-zed
Technically the US government is not setting interest rates by fiat, but manipulating the price by manipulating the supply of credit. It’s not the same thing as price controls.Report
Perhaps I should have said “action” rather than “fiat.” There are many short-term interest rates and I didn’t want to get bogged down in technicalities. The FRB sets three of them directly at the discount window, and, as you correctly assert, uses its monopoly power to manipulate the rest.Report
For the interested, an Austrian critique of EMH. It’s both readable and non-whackadoodle (which isn’t the same as claiming it’s necessarily correct).Report
Looking back, the first time I ever heard of the EMH was around ’03, and it was in a blog post by an Austrian pimping his favorite stock prediction technique. Looking at his blog now, it looks like he’s no longer pimping it (he used to have a huge chart on one side of the blog), but I ain’t going to link to it, ’cause he’s an odious human being (not because he’s an Austrian, though that doesn’t help).Report
I think perhaps the EMH was more applicable when it was formulated than it is today. Allow me to grope toward a point here. As stated, the EMH seems to assume the kind of investor who is primarily interested in accurately determining the “true” value of a company and detecting discrepancies between that valuation and the market valuation.
But is that what most active traders are really trying to do?
When capital gains taxes and the top marginal rates were cut in the 80s, the focus of investor activity shifted somewhat from value seeking to profiting from trading itself. The penultimate example of this being the totally automated HFT that basically tries to do a Maxwell’s Demon thing on the stock market.
So now the goal isn’t about accurately determining the value of a company so much as it is about accurately determining and predicting what other traders are thinking. After all, if you’re only maintaining a market position for a few milliseconds what the hell do you care about fundamentals?
I’m not sure what all this means wrt to the EMH, but it at least seems like the market we have now is a different beast than the one Fama was contemplating.Report
Thanks for posting this James, to avoid informally starting an Efficient Markets Symposium I won’t do a full EMH post, but here’s the quick version:
What is it?
The EMH is a set of three hypotheses regarding how well financial markets process information. In particular, they ask what you would need to know to be able to construct a trading strategy that would out-perform the market on average (that is to say, out-perform the market without just getting lucky).
What is it Not?
The EMH (even the strong form) does not assert that markets are infallible. Markets can only know what their participants know.
The EMH does not assert markets are rational. Rational markets would be sufficient for efficient markets, but they are not necessary. For a bubble to violate the EMH, the bubble’s behaviour would have to be predictable enough that you could plot out a trading strategy that was more lucrative than buy-and-hold.
The EMH has little to say about the relative merits of more or less government intervention in financial markets, or any other markets. I’ll talk more about policy implications later, but there aren’t very many.
What are the three forms?
The EMH comes in three forms: Weak, Semi-Strong and Strong. Each places increasingly strict limits on what information is needed to beat the market:
1) The weak form says that you can’t beat the market by using it’s own past to predict its future. SO you need current events to beat the market, not old news.
2) The semi-strong form says that anything that is publicly known is already included in the price, so to the beat the market you need to know something the other traders don’t.
3) The strong form rules out beating the market at all, except by accident.
Is it falsifiable?
Yes. Each form is tested a little differently.
1) The weak EMH is tested by looking for regularities in the time series characteristics of share prices. Finding usable regularities is evidence against the EMH.
2) The semi-strong EMH is tested by looking at how prices respond to unpredicted events. The EMH predicts that unpredicted events will show a sharp rise (or fall) in repose to the event, but that’s it. A piece of news should not cause a sustained change in the trend of a share price. This is hard to test with just one event, which is why you look at a lot of events at once. Widely-expected events should show little-to-no effect on prices.
3) For the strong EMH, the only events that should show a price response are those that were utterly unexpected by anyone. Insider information being made public should not affect prices.
What are the empirical results?
The weak EMH has rock-solid empirical support, the strong EMH doesn’t hold up, and while the semi-strong EMH is supported on balance, though the evidence doesn’t all go one way. Admittedly something could have change the 9 years since I left uni, but the evidence was pretty settled at that time.
What are the policy implications?
Few. The only thing it argues against is trying to intervene in a market by responding to a crisis just before it happens, because that requires timing the EMH won’t permit you to have. The strong EMH would also suggest that banning insider trading is a waste of time, but as I noted there isn’t a lot of empirical support for the strong EMH.
So why does everyone care about the EMH?
Hell if I know.
If you are an academic economist, or a fund manager or possibly an official in the SEC or Fed you have some reason to care about the EMH. Why everyone else makes so much fuss about it doesn’t make a lot of sense on the merits.
My guess is that it has something to do with the name. As @road-scholar noted upthread economists have some specialised definitions of efficient and I suspect this has led to people drafting the EMH into the endless “Markets, white magic or black magic?” debate that seems to consume all discussions of economic policy.Report
Thank you , @james-k !Report
You’re welcome @michael-drewReport
..,Another way to come at it might be to ask what it would mean if a market is not efficient in this sense. From the definitions you give (and from other definitions I’ve seen), it looks like this is often defined in terms of “beating the market.” So: if the market is “beat”able (with the various kinds of information pertaining to each form of the hypothesis) then it’s not efficient in this sense. But “beat the market” seems a surprisingly nontechnical criterion on which to hang what sounds like a pretty technical hypothesis. What is it, quite exactly, to “beat” a market in the sense being used in these statements of the hypothesis?Report
@michael-drew
“Beat the market” may sound colloquial, but a lot of finance jargon is like that. Basically, beating the market means that you can construct a trading strategy that will allow you to get higher average returns than a broad-based market index without taking greater risks than holding a market-based portfolio would require taking.
If markets were weak-inefficient then you’d be able to forecast market prices, and econometricians would be rich. If markets were semi-strong inefficient then reading the financial section of the paper would actually help you make money in the stock market.Report
…Thanks again.Report
Thank you, James K. I always find it valuable when you chime in, which we all know you do too little.Report
Thanks, @james-k , for this most excellent primer. And I don’t see a lot here that strikes me as particularly redoubtable. I would note that HFT seems to partially defy the weak version on the shortest time scales but maybe not since some things I read on it seems to imply that the algorithms are utilizing what amounts to private information.Report
So why does everyone care about EMH?
Because anyone lacking understanding that 1) EMH is about publicly traded stocks, where there are certain levels of disclosure required, and 2) that intervention after a bubble forms won’t prevent the bubble allows a host of nonsensical arguments to be made. For instance, the problems in the health-insurance market will be solved by the market. Or regulation of any sort distorts free markets. But you get my drift.
Since this became a near-symposium, I’ve been considering the difference between venture/angel investing and stock-market investing. We tend to think of that difference in terms of risk; a mutual fund is a relatively safe investment, an angel investment a highly risky investment. I don’t know if these numbers have changed, but in the 1980’s and ’90’s, about one in seven venture investments were profitable. The other six were losers. If you want to do angel or venture investing (which requires you to have access to large amounts of liquid capital that you can risk losing six out of seven times,) you do due diligence, and the most successful investors do really thorough due diligence. Having spoken to entrepreneurs who’ve been through the process, they felt it pretty invasive; they not only revealed their life in a way that might put an FBI background check to shame, but they gave up significant amount of control over the fate and direction of their company in exchange for the working capital venture investing provides.
This matters because there are different types of investment markets with different types of risk; and EMH (as a non-stock theory) fails to get at this, while it’s used to argue against market regulation. For instance. Consider the risk between public disclosure of publicly-traded companies, where we can read the annual and quarterly SEC filings, where there are boards elected by share holders, and some level of public information readily available, both about the particular company and the market sectors it occupies, vs. venture investing, where much, if not all, of this information is not available. EMH, applied venture investing doesn’t work. The market isn’t self correcting because the information at the root of the market isn’t public; which is why good VCs and Angels do that due diligence, and still lose out six out of seven times.Report
Because anyone lacking understanding that 1) EMH is about publicly traded stocks, where there are certain levels of disclosure required, and 2) that intervention after a bubble forms won’t prevent the bubble allows a host of nonsensical arguments to be made.
Lucas and Fama are such idiots, aren’t they?Report
I didn’t say that, did I? I said the fools were the people who used EMH to explain non-publicly-traded markets.
Have you ever taken a company public? Sold a company? Split a company? Settled an estate invested in private companies? Taken a company through bankruptcy?
Valuation’s a bitch, and doesn’t comport with EMH as far as I can tell, even though there are many things common to both pricing methods. EMH may work well and explain publicly traded companies and stock markets, but that’s about it. Yet it’s used all sorts of laxness in corporate oversight because “the market’s efficient.”
Most companies are not publicly traded; Hobby Lobby’s a good example much discussed here. Were it publicly traded, it would not have even brought it’s case over contraception to the SC. Should it ever go public, it will lose it’s religious exemption from complying. When the Greens eventually die, their heirs will have to value the company for estate-tax purposes; but it will still not be public information; and should they opt to do an IPO, the public-market price, using available information, will be determined some time after the IPO — the price the shares actually trade at once the IPO-hype’s calmed down. WalMart, on the other hand, is publicly traded, and it’s stock prices will reflect information about how employees are compensated, how it’s supply chains are running, etc.
Using EMH to discuss HobbyLobby is pretty much meaningless while using it to discuss WalMart is probably worthwhile. We don’t know HL’s actual value; we do know WalMart’s. We have some notion of how both companies might rent seek, how they might deliver value, etc., but WalMart’s successes and setbacks are both divulged in their SEC filings; HL’s are private information.Report
I didn’t say that, did I? I said the fools were the people who used EMH to explain non-publicly-traded markets.
Oh, so the only thing wrong with EMH is that non-economists didn’t understand it?
Valuation’s a bitch, and doesn’t comport with EMH as far as I can tell,
Oh, so the problem is economists after all, for supporting a model that doesn’t comport with valuation?
I’m so confused now. How about you?Report
@james-hanley actually, you are confused. Pity.
EMH talks about this (significant) but limited pie. It’s used to describe all the pies. And that’s foolish. I did not attack EMH anywhere on this thread, btw; I suggested that it’s used wrong (as proxy for free markets,) when it’s use should be constrained to publicly traded.
Valuation, due-diligence, and a host of other things need to be don to replace the information about publicly-traded companies; they’re examples of why all the fruit in the basket aren’t berries with their freshness and blemishes easily observable. Some of the fruits have rinds and peels, and you have to crack them open. These not-so-obivous fruits also happen to be the companies that may prove to be entrepreneurial and grow quickly.Report
Do you really think that if Warren Buffett relinquished all his duties at Berkshire Hathaway and managed a portfolio of $1,000,000 he wouldn’t beat the market over the next 5 years? Wouldn’t that in itself disprove EMT? Also when you consider all the signs that someone is operating at an elite level for their field (for example he read every book on investing in the Omaha library by age 10) isn’t it hard to attribute his past performance to luck?Report