Ideology is the Enemy: The Creeping Victory of “Consistent” over “Judicious”
Note: This is part of an ongoing series I’m doing on the growing dangers we face by becoming more ideologically rigid. They are not intended to go in any particular order, and would be more truthfully catalogued as “musings” than “treatise.” You can find the introductory post here. All of the Ideology Is The Enemy posts can be found here.
Doug Wilson would like you to know that he is not a racist.
He’s very emphatic on this point. I’m not sure I’ve ever come across anyone that argues more often or more forcefully that, despite what some might say, he or she is not a racist. To be fair, though, this is probably necessary. Wilson has caused a bit of a stir in the evangelical Christian community for penning the essay collection Black & Tan, a book that in many ways is a defense of American slavery.
For those unfamiliar, Doug Wilson is a theologian and pastor at Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho. Christopher Hitchens and documentary film fans alike will remember him from the movie Collision, which followed a series of debates on Christianity between the two men. Wilson has also famously debated Andrew Sullivan on the topic of same-sex marriage. A prolific writer (over fifty books published and counting), he founded and edits the smart and thoroughly likable journal Credenda/Agenda. He is one of the founders of New Saint Andrews College, a small but respected liberal arts school that does not have science classes teaching that the Earth is 6,00 years old. Everything I have seen from the man suggests that he is intelligent, gracious, kind, respectful, educated, and well rounded; in many ways he is an ideal face for evangelical Christianity today.
I read Black & Tan over the weekend and I must say I found it strangely gripping, in no small part because Wilson is a gorgeous writer. (You can download a free copy of the book here, if you like.) In the book, Wilson takes great pains to point out that he deplores the more brutal treatments of African-American slaves; the raping of slave women by slave owners seems particularly horrifying to him. Indeed, it is in part this condemnation of bad ownership habits that allows Wilson to believe he is justified in his position that he is not racist.
But the practice of slavery itself is one that Wilson has little problem with, and his reasoning on this matter is a direct result of his conservative Christian ideology:
“Our humanistic and democratic culture regards slavery in itself as a monstrous evil, malum in se, and it acts as though this were self-evidently true. The Bible permits Christians in slave-owning cultures to own slaves, provided they are treated well. You are a Christian. Whom do you believe?”
Wilson notes that he doesn’t endorse a return to people being legally allowed to own other people; on the other hand, he doesn’t categorically oppose it either. (He does say that slavery based entirely on race is antithetical to Christianity.) To some degree, Wilson even sees the practice as having positive outcomes. In his earlier work Southern Slavery, As It Was, Wilson makes the profoundly odd and inflammatory argument that “slavery produced in the South a genuine affection between the races that we believe we can say has never existed in any nation before the War or since.” I want to stress once again that despite these statements, Wilson is not an outlying pariah in the mold of Fred Phelps; he is greatly respected by peers, allies and opponents on the left alike. He just also happens to be someone who has reasoned out that it’s perfectly acceptable (and in certain cases, good) to own people.
So how did we get here? How did we get to a place where such a respected, well-read and erudite figure representing one of our nation’s largest religious communities can make an argument – taken seriously by a growing number – that slavery is an acceptable thing, provided that you do it right?
The answer to that question has everything to do with the growing importance of being ideologically consistent rather than judicious. To quote Wilson’s Black & Tan again,
“Christians must live or die by the Scriptures, as they stand. Compromise on what the Bible teaches about slavery is directly related to the current pressures to compromise on abortion and sodomy. Southern slavery was an example of the kind of sinful human situation that called for diligent obedience to St. Paul’s directives, on the part of both masters and slaves. Because this did not happen, and because of the way slavery ended, the federal government acquired the power to impose things on the states that it did not have before. Therefore, for all these reasons, radicalism is to be rejected by Christians.”
Wilson’s point is an important one. Because if we decide that ideological consistency is the noblest of goals to strive for – if we declare, here and today, that being adherent to dogma should be a loftier and greater ideal than intellectual compromise, if we really decide that that’s the brass ring to reach for – then here’s the thing:
When judged on the merits of Christian conservative consistency, everything Wilson says about slavery being an acceptable thing is completely, absolutely, one hundred percent correct.
____________________________________________________
Everywhere you look in American politics and punditry, ideologically consistency is gaining adherents.
Conservatives have a great head start on everyone on this fashionable front, of course. The quest for achieving the Conservative platonic ideal has been pushed with an ever-growing force since the rise of right-wing talk radio. Over the past six years especially the GOP has placed a premium on ideological consistency over all else, including national electability. In comparison, the Democratic Party languishes far behind. If you examine those initial steps conservatives took when they first set down this path, however, it looks surprisingly similar to steps Democrats and leftists are taking today. Ross Perot, Ralph Nader and Ron Paul – those third party candidates who truly sparked imaginations in my lifetime – were all quite different, but each crested in popularity on their promises to bring greater ideological consistency to the White House. [Note: I’ll be dealing with this entire topic in detail later in the month.]
Younger readers might be unaware, but this trend for serious people to push for ideologically consistent policy decisions is actually a fairly recent one. Throughout the first half of my adult life, politicians were instead rewarded for the ability to be judicious in their approach to public policy.
Contrary to current thinking, Ronald Reagan was largely beloved not for being dogmatically rigid, but for being pragmatically flexible. He was a proponent of small government, but he was still willing to raise taxes to provide popular services both as a governor and president. He was pro-life enough to be called pro-life, but not so pro-life to keep him from signing a permissive abortion bill as governor or nominating Sandra Day O’Connor to the Supreme Court. Indeed, he was famously (at the time, not today) opposed to using almost any “litmus tests” in politics. Reagan’s mission was to create a political platform that greatly increased the size of the GOP tent; it was not to cast out the ideologically impure. Reagan had strong values and fierce convictions, but he tempered them with a judicious approach to governance.
Or to put it another way, Reagan might have been every bit as conservative and Christian as Doug Wilson, but his fundamental understanding of the need to keep his reasoning judicious rather than dogmatic kept him from ever coming to pro-slavery conclusions.
In fact, when I look back on the first decade or so of my adult life I can think of only two places where the purity of ideological consistency was praised over judicious governance: academia and cults.[1] Colleges and cults are two entirely different things, of course; they share little in common. The one thing they do share is that each is a type of cocoon partitioned off from the rest of the world.
When I was in college, for example, my fellow students and I studied political science. In classes, dorm rooms, bars and coffee shops we discussed and argued the emblematic texts of the great minds that had come before. (Mind you, this was in Eugene, Oregon, and so the band of the political spectrum we fought over was relatively small: Trotskyists, Maoists, mutualists and anarcho-syndicalists habitually tangled for supremacy.) The need to actually govern did not exist for us, however; nor, really, did the need to get a job, pay a mortgage or raise a family. All that mattered was the pure academic elixir of political thought. No wonder, then, that the greatest admiration and accolades were bestowed upon those who could prove themselves the most ideologically pure. This is why ideas that sounded crazy to the rest of the world – such as the notions that the descendants of slave owners should be tried for genocide or that all heterosexual sex is rape – were so often embraced in these discussions. (And yes, before you send me emails explaining that John Conyers never advocated trying the descendants of slave owners and Andrea Dworkin never actually said all heterosexual sex is rape, know that I am well aware. That didn’t keep my peers from being willing to go that extra step on their own.)
Once we left school, however, the need to be seen as ideologically consistent was quickly drummed out of us by the real world. The nightly news and our day-to-day lives replaced Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn as our primary sources for how the world worked, as we were thrust into contact with all kinds of people who saw the word differently. The absence of an all-black-and-white palate meant that we needed to begin coloring the world we saw in millions of varying shades. Refusing to be judicious in our views was a luxury we had been afforded by being enclosed in the cocoon of our university. Now that we had graduated, we had to leave our childish things behind.
Today, however, the need to leave those childish things behind is fast disappearing. We still physically live in diverse communities, but technology is largely eliminating the need to interact with those different from ourselves. More and more, those who are politically involved are finding that they can eliminate all other viewpoints from their field of vision. Liberal, conservative or libertarian, you can now choose to be kept up to date on everything in real time, and yet still have it packaged and delivered in a way that never challenges or contradicts your ideology. More and more, every bit of news we receive can be set up to confirm our preconceptions. If you supported a public policy decision that had catastrophic results or campaigned for a candidate who turned out to be corrupt and immoral, fear not – your market-chosen news sources will tell you differently, and you will be able to feel good about yourself and your seemingly unfailing ideology. So, too, will those on the other side of the fence. Every event that happens will feed into your growing certainty that an unwavering loyalty to your ideology is a thing important, urgent and necessary. Every bit of data you have chosen to receive will remind you that things only ever go wrong when you compromise your blind faith in the strictest reading of dogma. Increasingly, all you consume will seduce you into believing that the world will burn unless you forsake judiciousness for consistency. Technology is slowly separating your ideology from the observable real world and limiting it to mere academic theorizing – worse than that, it’s academic theorizing performed in an echo chamber. Technology is making your ideology into a cult.
The real problem, of course, is that while ideologies always work on paper, they must be practiced in a human world. In a real and human world ideologies work best as a starting point, a base from which to find a path to stable public policy. Ideology has always worked better as an abstract piece of art than a detailed photograph. We must learn when to lean on our ideologies, and when to recognize that they are failing us. Ideological consistency is the enemy of that wisdom.
Doug Wilson argues that if you’re a Christian conservative who condemns violent opposition to abortion you need to accept that slavery can also be a good thing; otherwise, you leave yourself open to to complaints that you are not being ideologically consistent. He’s correct. What happens when more and more Christian conservatives realize this, and decide that ideological consistency is a higher ideal to strive for than judicious governance? If we were all good Christians, Wilson claims, such a world might be quite harmonious indeed.
But history says differently.
History says that once ideology declares slavery acceptable, we will find a way to make sure that our tribe is part of the ownership set, and another part of the property set. History says that having absolute power over others always leads to the very things Wilson is sure need not happen. History says that once we discover the degree to which it is profitable to own others for labor – how our lives are freed up for more pleasure pursuits than toiling in fields and cubicles – it becomes a very difficult system to dismantle. History says we’ll even kill or die for the right to own people, once we’ve had a big enough taste of it. History says that slavery would surely become the same source of evil it was two hundred years ago, and was two hundred years before that, and two hundred before even that.
It would, however, be ideologically consistent.
[1] Not entirely true. There was one other that came across my radar screen during those years. In addition to academics and cultists, I remember that Mr. K____ used to talk about the importance never wavering on your ideological consistency.
Mr. K____ was rumored to be the richest man in our upper-middle class suburban town. He had owned much of the land the town was built on, and over decades parceled it out in high profit sales to the city. Despite this, he lived in a dilapidated shack and wore cheap, near-threadbare clothing. He was ancient, and I never saw him clean-shaven; his white hair ran wild from underneath his brown trucker hat. When I was eighteen I worked the summer as a busboy at a local coffee shop where Mr. K____ was a regular. He seemed to consider berating the all-female wait staff a sport, sending back eggs for being runny one day and then sending them back for not being runny the next. He would sit in his booth for hours through breakfast and lunch, getting refills of coffee and calmly shredding napkin after napkin. Each day he tipped the exact same amount: one nickel and one penny. To my knowledge, his daily coffee shop forays were his only regular interaction with other people.
When things were slow Mr. K____ would call one of us busboys over and show us his pamphlets.
These pamphlets warned of the systematic dismantling of the American way of life by the Jews, who apparently were almost in place to enslave the world for their nefarious purposes. Jews themselves were a weak and cowardly lot, Mr. K____ and the pamphlets would say, and because of this they relied on the violent muscle of the American Negro. These pamphlets would have cartoon drawings of Jews and Negros working together to rob, rape and kill white Christians. The Jews were always pictured as being midget-height with noses larger than their torsos, the Negros as fat, hairy gorillas in human clothes whose lips matched the Jews noses in size. I do not know where he got these pamphlets.
Mr. K____ had many arguments for why the government needed to round up the Jews and Negros and ship them back to Israel and Africa, respectively. The strength of all of these arguments relied upon the same kind of strict adherence to Biblical and Constitutional consistency that Doug Wilson relies upon to get where he does on the subject of slavery.
And though there is no doubt that he was completely off his nut, I can tell you that Mr. K____’s intellectual discipline and logic were always impeccable.
Pretty good post my Tod. Makes me feel better than my own liberal tribe (or it is associated conglomeration of liberal tribelettes?) are such a fractous crazy mess most of the time, especially when it comes to ideology.Report
Good post, Tod. It brings to mind two of my favorites sayings:
1. “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.”. -Ralph Waldo Emerson
2. “Have too many principles, and you will soon have none.” -Me
The problem with ideology, as you say, is not when it is used as a beginning, but instead as an end. What this means, in my view, is that it is important to have a handful of broad, perhaps amorphous first principles. Where the trouble begins is when possible means to those ends become viewed as ends unto themselves. When this happens enough times, the original, broad and amorphous principle slowly becomes at best just another principle to be discarded as necessary when it conflicts with some other “principle” in the name of a consistency that has forgotten how to distinguish between means and ends.Report
WHAT — what is wrong with people?? That they think that they ought to be allowed to buy and sell others, with the various tools of the trade: threats (oh, call them promises), blackmail, bribes which turn into blackmail, sex (the more scandalous the better, naturally), drugs, the list goes on.
This man merely justifies reality. His reasoning for justifying it is idiotic, of course.
But I find myself questioning the worthwhileness of picking on the poor bloke,
particularly when there are far worse villains out there.
Your essay was well written, and definitely deserving of consideration. I regret that I will not be giving it such. In fact, I don’t believe a word of it, because I know that our true enemies are unprincipled fools, who twist any ideology to suit what they want at any given time.Report
Seconding this, and also asking just how far his ‘consistency’ goes. Does he obey every single verse of the Bible? Does he ban the collection of interest, divorce (except for adultery by the wife)? Are his policies on foreigners resident in the USA 100% in line with Biblical teachings? When he has to take a dump, does he take a stick and go outside the city walls?
I grant that it’s *possible* that he is 100% biblically consistent, but I know which side of the bet I’d take.
In the end, he’s a f-ing racist and slaver sympathizer and propagandist, and deserves – well, I won’t comment on what he actually deserves, but he certainly doesn’t deserve respect or the benefit of the doubt.Report
Hmm. That brings up an interesting thought — even the inerrant Bible types tend to pick and choose a little bit (mostly ignoring vast swathes of the OT as no longer relevant after Jesus. Mixed fabrics and a lot of dietary stuff, for instance).
And what it seems to boil down to is “I obey the important rules“.
Which raises interesting questions. Why is homosexuality important, but not slavery? (Or vice versa). Why are dietary rules not important, but monogamy is? Why these rules and not those?
Homosexuality, more than slavery, seems to be a weird little outlier. Not many Christians, at least in America, quote the Bible in support of slavery — but quite a few (relatively speaking) dig into the weeds of Leviticus to oppose homosexuality, even as they skip over 90% of the other rules in Leviticus. (Admittedly, some because things like temple prostitution don’t actually exist in America).Report
We live under a new covenant now.Report
Yes, I hear that a lot. And I get the theological reasoning behind it. (In fact I sorta mentioned that in my post, though I didn’t say it by name).
And then some of the same people that say that go on to quote Leviticus to explain why homosexuality is wrong. Apparently the New Covenant doesn’t cover everything in the Old Testament.
Which they pretty much pick and choose. Obviously Jesus is great with mixed fabrics, but not so much with the gays.
So sure, New Covenant and all that Jazz. Yet the OT gets brought in whenever it’s convenient, and ignored when it’s not. Seems a bit…prone to rules lawyering, eh?Report
For people who have not read those verses, they only _ explicitly_ void food laws, and actually only the ‘Which is clean and unclean animals?’ food law. They are silent on things like cheeseburgers and eating blood, and also silent on shaving the sides of your beard, which I see pretty much every Christian male doing. All they literally allow is eating shellfish and pigs.
In _actuality_, those verses are about Jew vs. Gentile distinction, a big issue at the time, and the person _experiencing_ the vision, Paul, says that what has been revealed to him to to not call anyone unclean. This is one of the very Biblical metaphors where the _person who told of about it then proceeded to tell us what it meant_.
Now, removing _all_ rules about what is ‘clean’ and ‘unclean’ would appear to cover both how people shave and who they have sex with, in a universe where people actually tried to read the actual text of the Bible instead of making up crap and then trying to find ways in which the Bible supports it.Report
The New Testament isn’t silent about eating blood.
Eating blood is explicitly forbidden to the faithful. But many of them do it anyway:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+15%3A28-29&version=NIVReport
Go to Scotland and tell them they are going to Heck for Black and White Pudding. Let me know how that goes.Report
I’m going to burn in hell for my love of the French Dip.Report
I didn’t mean to imply it was. I was just pointing out that the verse that supposedly gets rid of the food rules (Although it actually just speaks to clean vs. unclean animals and nothing else) does appear to get rid of all ‘cleanliness’ laws, period, or at least that’s the interpretation of the guy who _had_ the vision.
Without that interpretation of the vision, it’s still not allowed to cut the edges of your beard or wear mixed fabric clothing or eat cheeseburgers or eat blood. Or have gay sex. The only thing the _vision_ literally says is ‘Pig are cool’. The metaphor, however, (Which is specifically explained.) is that there is no such thing as ‘clean’ or ‘unclean’ behavior, and hence it’s hard to see why homosexual behavior wouldn’t be allowed under that.
Although, as you point out, it may not actually be okay to eat blood at all…although that verse is a bit vague, and it actually seems like that’s a specific requirement for those specific circumstances. It’s described as ‘James’ judgement’ and not some actual judgement from God.Report
OK, David, you seem to be focusing on Acts chapter 10 (the vision of Peter), while Jason and others are pointing to Act chapter 15, where the the Apostles and elders, assembled as the Council of Jerusalem, provide a much more explicit and comprehensive statement.
Decision and Letter of Council > Opinion and Vision of One ApostleReport
Okay, first of all, this has somehow turned into a religious debate about who is correct, which is, uh, not what this is. (_I_ happen to think that all Jewish law is basically that, Jewish law, and as the vast majority of Christians do not consider themselves ‘Jews’, those laws are actually fairly irrelevant, and even if they _are_ important, they should be interpreted the correct way to read Jewish law…by thousands of years of decisions by Jewish rabbis, not some random Christian guy reading the text without context.)
What I was doing here I was simply explaining how ‘The New Covenant’ thing worked to those people unfamiliar with the concept. That taken without the explanation, it literally only means no animals are unclean, and thus while it might void some dietary laws, it doesn’t say anything about mixed fabrics. Taking metaphorically, however, which is how it is explained in the text, it voids pretty much all the purity laws.
I was explaining this because I get tired of people bringing up dietary laws and mixed fabrics to point out that Christians are hypocritical about gay marriage and other stuff in the OT, and then Christians manage to turn around and be exactly as hypocritical as they are accused of by asserting that all that magically disappeared via the new Covenant, when in actuality either _just_ specific dietary laws disappeared, _or_ all such laws disappeared.
There’s no real logical interpretation where mixed fabrics and cheeseburgers are okay but homosexuality is not. Waving ‘The New Covenant’ around (Which Jaybird was doing jokingly, but I’ve seen done seriously.) is not an explanation.
Secondly, the idea that the Decision and Letter of Council is more important than what is explicitly a _god-given_ Vision seems a bit dubious to me.Report
I thank you for the ellucidation of a faith that is not my own.
I learned something!Report
It’s described as ‘James’ judgement’ and not some actual judgement from God.
I thought it was described as a decision by the council, speaking on behalf of God.Report
I hope that cotton-rayon blend feels nice and cool when you’re burning in hell.Report
Homosexuality appears to have been condemned in both the Old and New Testaments.
Liberal Christians have their reasons for discounting the New Testament passages, or for arguing that they don’t mean what they have usually been translated to say.
It is still a source of unceasing puzzlement to me that some Christians take the apparent Pauline prohibition on homosexuality very seriously, but completely ignore it when Jesus tells them not to swear oaths. The prohibition on homosexuality is harmful, because it stops no one from actually having a homosexual orientation. But I suspect that a social taboo against oath-taking would do a great deal of good.Report
Mostly male homosexuality, to be fair.
And the Jewish interpretation tends to be “this was associated with idolatry, and that was bad…”Report
I actually hear the OT stuff a lot more than the NT stuff about homosexuality.
A lot more, mostly because the only really clear statement is from Paul, and Paul has…I wouldn’t say credibility issues, but his writings are a degree further away from Jesus than the Apostles, and once you add in some of the other things Paul says….
Well, the OT makes a much less complicated argument. Except for that New Covenant thing.
Which is why a great many Christians happily add “homosexuality” to “mixed fabrics” and “shellfish” and “slavery” and “women as second class citizens” to the things that God doesn’t really think, despite the fact that Christians for generations felt quite differently about it.
Which circles back to the point: In my personal experience, I have met few Christians who felt the Bible banned something they personally were in favor of or felt was moral. No equivalent of “I don’t eat shellfish because God says not to, although I don’t think there’s any reason not to other than the Bible”.Report
Occasionally I am at this level of silliness:
“I don’t eat shellfish because God says not to, although I don’t think there’s any reason not to other than the Bible”
… more often, I am respectful to the dead.Report
That’s understandable. I’ve met a few folks like that. “This is my culture/society/religion, that’s how we live. It’s not for everyone, I’m not even saying it’s more moral other than this is what God said and we do that”.
It’s more common in some religions and sects than others, and I’m most familiar with protestants (the traditional, evangelical, and fundamentalists sects — all three, not all three at once), and it’s…less common. Not unknown, just…
Well, it’s not just the common method of looking at the Bible, protestantly speaking.Report
I have had arguments over whether Jesus turned water into wine.
Not “it’s not possible to turn water into wine” arguments, but “Jesus would not have made alcohol” arguments. “He made a really good grape juice.”
You can point out the original Greek and it doesn’t matter.
We’re talking about people who have a special relationship to God and, therefore, a special relationship to Truth Itself. So even though The Bible Itself says that Christ turned water into wine, we know in our hearts that this did not happen. It was grape juice.Report
The church I grew up with used grape juice for Communion instead of wine. Dutch Reformed are no fun at all.Report
Well, that’s just common sense. There are children in the pews, after all.Report
a good concord grape juice (like the ones at trader joes, that they don’t sweeten half to death) is just as good as wine.Report
I’ve heard that the original word could have meant either wine or non-alcoholic drink. But I’ve never cared enough to research it further.
But that word in Isaiah does mean “young woman”, not “virgin”.Report
The word that I’ve always seen is “?????”.
I’ve never seen it used for non-alcoholic beverages.Report
Dangit, stupid internet.
Just go here:
http://biblehub.com/text/john/2-9.htm
Press the “Greek” tab at the top.
“Oinon” (to use the English alphabet) has always been translated as wine in everything I’ve read. Wine that got you drunk.
In John 2:10, it’s also implied that that’s how they’re using the word too.Report
The word that I’ve always seen is “?????”.
I’ve never seen it used for non-alcoholic beverages.
But it seems so appropriate for them.
Anyway, it’s “οινον” (using the HTML entities given at http://symbolcodes.tlt.psu.edu/bylanguage/greekchart.html)Report
I replied, but apparently a link plus Greek characters trips the spam filter.Report
Very good post, Tod. For me it serves to highlight my on-going frustration with certain commenters here who insist that libertarianism must be perfectly ideologically consistent, or else it is not libertarianism at all. In doing so they (unwittingly?) accept the claim of those uber-libertarians who are (or at least fancy themselves to be) so undeviatingly consistent, that such consistency is an absolute requirement–the very thing you criticize here.Report
James, there’s a reason libertarianism can be justifiably criticized for being inconsistent: academic as well as other formal treatments of a Theory of Libertarianism accept that a theory of libertarianism is just like any other formal theory, governed by the same theoretical principles and constraints, one of which is consistency. You may have a different conception of libertarianism than those who view it – and treat it – more formally. No problem there, of course. But my guess is that you don’t accept inconsistencies in your theory either.
I’ll just leave it at that.Report
Eh. There’s also the problem of Libertarian being a particularly philosophical position… and by that I mean, there are really, really smart Libertarians (insert familiar list of names here) who are analytical in their approach to Liberty, to Economics, to Government, and so on.
There are also… well, let’s call them Libertarians who are more existentialist in their approach to Libertarianism. Instead of being able to do math to explain some economic concept, they take more of a “read this poem” kind of approach to Liberty, to Economics, to Government, and so on.
And if you say “What in the hell does Louise Gluck have to do with Government? What in the hell does Mock Orange have to do with Liberty???”, the main answer is either “Um, read it again?” or “Eat this piece of paper, wait an hour, then read it again?”
And there will be a lot of inconsistencies between the Analytic and the Existential schools of thought. And, shit, there will be even more inconsistencies *WITHIN* the Existential school.
And this really bugs the Analytic folks out there. And it really doesn’t bug the Existentialists. Which really bugs the Analytic folks out there even more.Report
Eh. There’s also the problem of Libertarian being a particularly philosophical position… and by that I mean, there are really, really smart Libertarians (insert familiar list of names here) who are analytical in their approach to Liberty, to Economics, to Government, and so on
And if that really smart, analytical approach leads them to “Freedom includes the freedom to sell yourself into slavery”, some boldly go where no sane man has gone before. Which is what Tod’s talking about.Report
And the people who don’t go there can be mocked for not being analytical, or of not having the conviction to take them to the places where their beliefs take them, or of not being “real” libertarians if they’re not caricatures of libertarianism.Report
Anyone can be mocked for anything at any time. If you don’t want to be mocked, stay the hell off the intertubes. But if you’re so in love with your theory that you don’t stop frequently to check it against reality, you deserve to be mocked good and hard.Report
Of course.
I’m not complaining about the mockery as much as the whole “Libertarians who do P are wrong. Oh, and Libertarians who do not P are just as wrong” dynamic going on there.Report
On this side it’s “Unless you can give me the guiding principles which tell you exactly when a situation is serious enough to call for government intervention, clearly you’re just making stuff up as you go.”Report
James, there’s a reason libertarianism can be justifiably criticized for being inconsistent…
Groovy, but pointless, because of course there’s no requirement that libertarianism be treated as a formal theory any more than conservatism, liberalism, socialiam or zoro-astrianism. Let me know when you’re willing to apply the same standards to your own ism, and then we’ll have a real talk.
But my guess is that you don’t accept inconsistencies in your theory either.
I think this validates my theory that you’re actually playing an Andy Kaufman-type long-con gag. If you’d actually been paying attention during our discussions and wanting to have a serious conversation, this line would make no sense.Report
If you’d actually been paying attention during our discussions and wanting to have a serious conversation
James, more than anyone else here at the League I’ve paid attention to what you say and have engaged in serious discussions with you about both libertarianism and liberalism.Report
Dude, paying attention and thinking I don’t accept inconsistencies in my theory isn’t nearly as plausible as Andy Kaufman being a pro wrestler. I’m in on the joke now, but go ahead and keep playing it straight; I’m getting a kick out of it.Report
Well, James, I don’t know what to say to you anymore. You’ve trolled me under aliases, trolled me straight up, tried to instigate me into fighting with you…. Now you’re engaging in this strange passive-aggressive game of personal accusations and character assessment. Knock yourself out. But I won’t play with you, dude. It’s gonna be a solo act.Report
Yawn. Matt. 7:3, boyo, Matt. 7:3. Good night, and good luck.Report
Very good post, Tod. For me it serves to highlight my on-going frustration with certain commenters here who insist that libertarianism must be perfectly ideologically consistent, or else it is not libertarianism at all. In doing so they (unwittingly?) accept the claim of those uber-libertarians who are (or at least fancy themselves to be) so undeviatingly consistent, that such consistency is an absolute requirement–the very thing you criticize here.Report
Is this really the case though? I think a good argument can be made that we were just as ideologically divided in the past as we are now but that limited technology made us largely ignorant of the divisions. It could be more about willful blindness to ideology than anything else.Report
“Our humanistic and democratic culture regards slavery in itself as a monstrous evil, malum in se, and it acts as though this were self-evidently true. The Bible permits Christians in slave-owning cultures to own slaves, provided they are treated well. You are a Christian. Whom do you believe?”
There are actually two very good answers to this dilemma.
One of them is simply not to be a Christian, because if the Christian morality can be this flawed, then it’s clearly not the product of divine revelation.
The second has been noted by Dan Savage, and it disgusts and angers the Christians: He notes that Christians routinely ignore many different parts of the Bible without the slightest pangs of guilt. Christians aren’t supposed to swear. Or divorce. Or pray in loud, ostentatious ways.
Jesus himself said these things. Christians routinely ignore his commands.
If that’s okay, then ignoring Paul’s advice about keeping slaves is clearly okay as well. And maybe gay marriage is okay too. But by then we’re into liberal Christianity, in which we have to think for ourselves, and apparently whole huge congregations of Christians don’t really care for this approach.Report
I think most Christians are basically good people who behave morally, for the most part. Their adherence to and interpretation of their religion has little to do with their moral goodness and the only thing surprising about that is the forceful articulation of a moral vision set forth by Jesus.Report
“I think most Christians are basically good people”
Which is a way of saying they are no different at their moral core than the rest of us, which given Jesus’s radical teachings about morality, makes you wonder how Christian most people called “Christian” really are.Report
I think most Christians are basically good people who behave morally, for the most part.
Most ‘basically good people’ who lack the ability examine their notions of good, to let that ride on someone else’s say so, do great harm. So we got native American children taken from their families and fostered by strangers, for instance. This is in my lifetime, Burt. People my age. Done to make them Christians.Report
Everyday, routine experience indicates to me that people who self-identify as Christian are as a group neither any more nor any less moral than any other kind of person.
As individuals? There are individual specimens of morally awful Christians. There are morally awful individual atheists, too. There are morally awful specimens of everything.
That religion gets used by some to justify morally awful things is well-documented. It’s for Christians to either apologize for or disown the sort of conduct you describe.
Religiosity and morality appear to me, in practice, to be simply different characteristics.Report
‘basically good people’ who lack the ability examine their notions of good,
Most people, even those who claim to examine their notions of the good aren’t particularly reflective about it. Given that a full and critical reflection about the good probably leaves us in a place of wide ranging and almost complete scepticism about the good*, I tend to be forgiving of people who are not so reflective. Also, it seems that most of us only appear to be more reflective because our web of beliefs are in disequilibrium: Something happenned to us to create a dissonance within us which we find uncomfortable and thus seek to remove. I don’t know that it demonstrates any more love for truth than one who just failed to have such an experience. In the end, people still remain in their comfort zones, thinking comfortable thoughts.
*How would we know that slavery is really bad or that freedom is really good? Many people seem to think so, but that is no evidence one way or another.Report
How would we know that slavery is really bad or that freedom is really good? Many people seem to think so, but that is no evidence one way or another.
I think there is plenty of evidence. You might start with the Library of Congress’s Slave Narratives from the Federal Writer’s Project.
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/snhtml/Report
That doesn’t prove things one way or another. Sure, it shows that slavery was deeply and horribly unpleasant to the slaves. But why should we think pain bad and pleasure good? Or let me put it another way. The slaves themselves thought that slavery was bad. Why is that evidence for slavery actually being bad?Report
Actually, it doesn’t show that at all; it shows a mixed range of human reactions. But these are stories collected during the depression; the bearers of those stories living though Jim Crow and poverty before poverty swept most everyone up in it’s grip. There’s more then a goodly amount of longing for the good ‘ol days here.
And yet only a voice or two amongst the crowd that would trade the freedoms of both Jim Crow and the depression for a return to the ‘comfort’ of slavery.Report
There is still no legitimate line of inference from what life they would choose for themselves and what is objectively and genuinely good.Report
“How would we know that slavery is really bad or that freedom is really good?”
This is a good example of what my father used to call being so clever that you can cut yourself.Report
I know it kinda looks like I’m proving your point for you, but I’m not trying trying to argue that slavery is not wrong. All I’m trying to show is that it is not a good idea to start pointing fingers at people and saying that those people do not think very deeply and hard about their conceptions of the good. No one really does an adequate job, and outside of academia it is difficult to sustain the required critical stance.Report
Murali, you’ve repeatedly suggested this throughout this post.
And I just gotta say: hogwash.
I’ve known people who don’t think about good, thinking here meaning introspection and questioning, self doubt; instead, they’ve fashioned their beliefs on bedrocks of bible or politics or union or whatever. The spout dogma, not thought. Do they do this all the time? No. But we all do it some of the time. (Perhaps you’re doing it now, here, with, “No one really does an adequate job, and outside of academia it is difficult to sustain the required critical stance.”)Report
But we all do it some of the time.
Yes and we do it very selectively. And we almost never think critically about critical thinking itself. If we consistently thought critically about everything, we would be likely drawn into an self-paralysing doubt. Look, sure there are some people who probably don’t do the critical thinking as much. But if you think that that is genuinely a bad thing, I would ask you to take a look in the mirror. You’re not doubting yourself hard enough. There are lots of things you yourself are taking for granted.Report
There’s an even simpler answer: Christianity allows slavery; it doesn’t require it. Of course Christians who own slaves should treat them kindly, because that’s better than treating them unkindly. Freeing them is better still.Report
Do christians still believe in Jubilee years?Report
As I read, I thought the dilemma you were going to mention was going to be the Euthyphro problem, and then it wasn’t. But then I realized it was.Report
Well, see, some Christians are Originalists and some are Living Biblists. 🙂
(Actually, that is kinda true. There is a strand of Christianity that is quite wedded to Biblical literalism. Although I think Catholics actually consider that a heresy, or at least bad theology. Many Christians see the Bible as the work of flawed men, and thus try to get what it ‘means’.
You know, the more I think about it — there’s probably a pretty good piece on the Constitutional interpretation and Biblical interpretation. Something to annoy and offend everyone, right there. 🙂 )Report
You haven’t started writing it yet? Come on, get with the annoy and offend program!Report
I didn’t mean it in the deliberately annoy people sense. I meant it in the sense that a thorough examination would probably end up goring a lot of people’s oxen, so to speak, and end up pretty much exactly where it started.
“Well, some people try to figure out what it exactly meant then but everyone’s dead so it’s subject to interpretation, especially when you try to tie it to stuff that’s not explicit. And some people try to diving some guiding spirit or overarching concept, which is open to interpretation as well. And everyone claims everyone else is making it all up to suit [insert ulterior motive here] or fooling themselves. And some probably are, and some aren’t, and really it’s no way to run an Empire, but what can you do?”Report
I knew that. Certain oxes are just begging to be gored however… 😉Report
“One of them is simply not to be a Christian, because if the Christian morality can be this flawed, then it’s clearly not the product of divine revelation.”
To be technical, this isn’t true – God, after all, doesn’t *have* to be good.
And in the internal workings of the theology Wilson is claiming to represent, us mortals don’t understand the goodness of God’s commands[1].
“The second has been noted by Dan Savage, and it disgusts and angers the Christians: He notes that Christians routinely ignore many different parts of the Bible without the slightest pangs of guilt. Christians aren’t supposed to swear. Or divorce. Or pray in loud, ostentatious ways. ”
This is what I posted (after your comment), above. The ones I can recall would be things that they don’t like to do, and that’s not getting into ‘turn the other cheek’ or the early Christians pooling their possessions[2].
[1] This does not apply to any commands that they don’t like.
[2] They can come up with other verses which are basically ‘Kill the Infidels!’, but if he wants to claim biblical literalism, that’s his problem – he has to obey *all* verses.Report
Fred Clark at the patheos slacktivist site, is the most articulate explainer of what Savage is getting at. He spends quite a bit of time hammering on his fellow evangelicals that ignore the “Christward Arc” of the bible. Well worth you time to look into any of his posts on the subject. The Abominable Shellfish, for instance, is a classic example.Report
Both of these are good points and observations.
I grew up in Reform Judaism. As I understand Reform Judaism, we believe that people wrote the Torah. It is an allegorical document of man searching for the Divine or answers to existential questions (Who are we? Why are we hear? etc.) This means that sections that might have been relevant a few thousand years ago are no longer right today. Or they were simply wrong then and are wrong now.
http://urj.org/learning/my/books/?syspage=article&item_id=1564
However as far as I can tell even liberal branches of Christianity don’t go this far into claiming that the New Testament/Bible was written by humans. I find this strange.
Just because these books were written by humans does not make them less worthy of study. If anything, it means we need to study them more. We need to look at what can be useful to life today and what is not. They will become like Plato or Aristotle and other Classical philosophers.
This is probably a fairly radical doctrine on my part.Report
Unitarians.Report
The institution of slavery has been practiced differently in different societies. It’s been a mobile debtors’ prison, an internship program, a system of destroying a conquered culture, a private army, a variant of serfdom. It’s been racial, religious, both, and neither. Wilson’s mistake is to think that the Bible endorses chattel slavery.
The Catholic position has been to very rarely endorse or condemn any particular system of government or economy, but to steer the practices of those governments and economies into a more moral path. The Catholic follows the Bible, which does give authority for sorting out the moral inconsistencies between the Old and New Testaments to the apostles and their successors (the pope and bishops). Evangelicals sometimes say that the Bible interprets the Bible, which makes no sense. Rather, the Bible points to the Church and the Church points to the Bible.
I didn’t mean to get so sermony there. The point is, Wilson creates a false dichotomy. Either you support the Southern form of slavery, which was the most degrading, dehumanizing form of slavery in human history, or you oppose the Bible. Nonsense.Report
Or they could follow the Jewish solution and lawyer around their scriptures to get the result that they want. If the Torah is the constitution of the Jews than the Talmud is the living constiution interpretation of it.Report
Or they could follow the Jewish solution and lawyer around their scriptures to get the result that they want. If the Torah is the constitution of the Jews than the Talmud is the living constiution interpretation of it.Report
Or they could follow the Jewish solution and lawyer around their scriptures to get the result that they want. If the Torah is the constitution of the Jews than the Talmud is the living constiution interpretation of it.Report
It must have been a real challenge to stop yourself from using the word “hobgoblin” in your essay, particularly in your description of Mr. K_______.
Why do you think Republicans and libertarians embraced consistency as a standalone virtue faster than Democrats? Is the “left’s” preferred constellation of policies that much more complex that distillation of an ideological theme is that much more difficult?Report
Wouldn’t you say that the remaining Republicans are the ones who embraced consistency? It seems to have required the shedding of “Rockefeller Republicans” and other interest groups. Consistency among those that remain seems easier because we do not count the absent ones who would, in other imaginary counterfactuals, still be there and still be muddying the ideological waters.
So I guess perhaps a more precise question might be why or how some aspects of the Republican party were able to purge it of others, and whether this had to do with media changes and consolidation, demographics, the Tea Party groundswell of outrage around issues such as the Wall Street bailout and the election of a black president, redistricting, or other reasons (all of them obviously contributed, but the degree to which they did is interesting).
Personally, while I don’t think it’s primary, I am fascinated by the idea that redistricting was intended to make seats “safe” for a given party, and those who oversaw it greatly underestimated how a challenge from within their party could represent a serious threat to the direction they sought, perhaps too easily dividing the world into just R and D rather than different coalitions of interests within them.Report
Wouldn’t you say that the remaining Republicans are the ones who embraced consistency?
They are pretty thick.Report
This is a good point. There are no more Rockefeller Republicans like Rockefeller.
Jacob Javits was one of the most liberal and most important Republicans in the 20th century. I doubt he would get elected today as a Republican. Democrats and Independents would love him though. Republicans will take social liberalism in very small doses like getting someone elected to NYC Mayor but they often end up driving those people away.Report
I don’t think the left’s ideological theme is that much more difficult or complex, I think it’s just broader, in the sense of how it can be put into practice. To radically oversimplify (but not to be at all dismissive), the left’s ideological theme can be thought of as “helping people in need of help.” There are endless ways in which people can potentially benefit from being helped, so the liberal constellation of policies is at least potentially very extensive.
By contrast, conservatives and libertarians (to simply state their position, not to argue for it, and again, radically oversimplified) are not only more likely to be skeptical that helping policies will actually have the desired effect, they object to the very unlimitedness of the helping theme (seeing in it the potential slide to Harrison Bergeron terrain). So they either reject the helping idea as a whole* or at least want to insist on clear standards for determining stopping points in the helping regime. Either way, it works to circumscribe the preferred policy constellation, while the liberal approach tends to expand it.**
________________________
*Not necessarily as applied to individual action, but as applied to government action.
**Within what can reasonably be argued to be helping–I’m not implying that liberals love any and all interventionist government policies.Report
I think that’s a very fair broad characterization of the liberal left’s (as distinct from the communist left’s – who don’t just want to help people, but in fact want to institute a maximally distributively just political-economic order) basic impulse. For a libertarian. 😉
…But seriously, that is indeed almost exactly what I’d say it is, as well.Report
Well, I used to be a pretty left-liberal (market socialist, Green Party registered, etc.), so on a good day I can remember with some degree of fairness what I used to believe.Report
…Of course, many liberals also “want to insist on clear standards for determining stopping points in the helping regime.” So if many libertarians do want to help but also want those limits it’s not at all clear there’s much of a distinction at all between those liberals and those libertarians.
Also, my agreement with your characterization was directed just at the “wanting to help those needing help” bit; the second paragraph looked to address the libertarian mindset, but I see now that it makes a final claim about liberals, which I don’t agree with as a general matter. I have been always unclear about whether libertarianism will always work to constrict government no matter what the status quo situation is, but as far liberals go (a category which in my mind excludes communists, though “leftists” doesn’t), whether they seek to expand the government really depends on what the present situation is. I think most liberals have a sense of what they’d like the government to do, and aren’t seeking to expand the government as a matter of principle. (My sense is that’s the same for libertarians, but I’d prefer not to speak for them.) So the aim is not directional; the aim is toward some particular final outcome. In a sense, then, the distinction between liberals and libertarians of the type you suggest (who want to help, but want to place limits on the helping regime) is not fundamentally in the direction of movement toward larger or smaller government, but just in what place they’d like government to occupy on the scale. I know for a fact that a number of liberals would be in favor of making government smaller if it were sufficiently large and intrusive, and I believe many libertarians would be in favor of expanding it if were sufficiently limited. So I actually wonder whether directional preference is the wrong way to describe these preferences.Report
There always has been government most liberals want less of. Almost all liberals want less of at least one if not more of the the WOD, oppressive policeing, the surveillance state and the military industrial complex.Report
These are good points. The arguments on the left about how and what will best help the broadest number of people. I think I explained this a bit below.Report
James, I thought that Harrison Bergeon was intended to be a satire on the conservative view of liberalism/socialism rather than an illustration of it.Report
Lee,
I honestly don’t know. I only know that libertarians are wont to reference it, or at least a hypothetical state similar enough to it to spook them, which is why I referenced it. Perhaps the joke’s doubly on them?Report
I just remember reading that Vonegurt (sp?) intended Harrison Bergeon to be a parody of how Ayn Rand views socialism. Considering his typical politics, this views seems more plausible than the idea that Harrison Bergeon is a straight satire of socialism.Report
I just remember reading that Vonegurt (sp?) intended Harrison Bergeon to be a parody of how Ayn Rand views socialism. Considering his typical politics, this views seems more plausible than the idea that Harrison Bergeon is a straight satire of socialism.Report
So they either reject the helping idea as a whole* or at least want to insist on clear standards for determining stopping points in the helping regime. Either way, it works to circumscribe the preferred policy constellation, while the liberal approach tends to expand it.**
Ha. I’ve long thought the problem with the ‘welfare state’ stems from this conflict; the urge to help vs. the urge to not help too much.
Ends up with silly rules that don’t do enough to empower people to help themselves out of poverty, reinforcing dependency and black market economies — working under the table, etc.Report
Along with the urge to help, but only if I get to control what they do with my help. My wife and I were just tonight laughing about when we qualified for WIC. I understand wanting to help expectant and new mothers with nutrition, but, my god, who could eat so damn many eggs? We were feeding them to our dog, when we really would have liked some hash browns or biscuits and gravy. Your tax dollars at work, feeding my egg sucking hound dog, because if they’d just given us cash we might have bought bacon instead.
But if course we might have bought Pall Malls and Boone’s Farm, too, so what’s a well-meaning policy maker supposed to do?Report
The New Deal wasn’t an ideological enterprise. It was a series of experiments to try to find ways to improve an awful situation. Ideology is required to argue that the consequences of that are necessarily worse than the Depression was.Report
But ideology is not required to think that the experimentation may have prolonged the economic slump.Report
Though it helps in hand-waving over why things had gotten so much worse over the preceding four years, and in ignoring that much of it remained during the postwar expansion.Report
In contrast to the hand-waving over why this particular economic panic lasted so very much longer than any others. As well as the reliance on the enduring myth that Hoover did nothing in response (and the hand waving away of FDR’s campaign criticis of Hoover for trying to do too much).Report
Surely we aren’t at the point where the Long Depression doesn’t come up?
Ayiyi…Report
Hoover was an interesting example of a technocratic governing administration, who did try despite a lack of success, to address the issues that were laid out in front of him. That said, ultimately his policy preferences didn’t work. When he was given the task of managing post-War Germany, he was substantially more successful.Report
Hoover certainly did more than nothing. That is fair enough. Sadly the recent criticisms of FDR are more of the “COMMIE” variety or the disingenuous bilge of Amity Shales.Report
Yes, as a matter of fact, it is. Google a graph of economic decline/growth in the 1930’s, and compare it with what the right says. Before you do the Googling, draw a right-wing hypothesis graph, and compare it to reality.Report
Two follow-ups – first, find somebody on the right who admits to the sort of growth experienced under FDR (pre-WWII), and who admits that economic growth during the war was in fact due to government spending.
Second, review Krugman’s columns. I believe that last week he compared the Latvian (? Lithuanian?) right-wing success story to a comparable graph of US economic growth.Report
Barry,
Of course there’s no other economic view of the Depression worth considering other than Krugman’s. What was I thinking?Report
That’s Helicopter Ben’s specialization, ain’t it?Report
Kimsie, Bernanke, Friedman, Reed…nobody needs to read anybody but Krugman about anything at all, even if the specialty that won him the Nobel was just specialized applications of trade theory. He’s the only economist who knows anything about anything, and the fact that he suits our ideological precommitments has nothing at all to do with it. Just read him–he’ll tell you he’s right and all the others are wrong, and there’s the proof right there.Report
You’re saying that, not me.
What I *will* say is that:
1) He’s covered a lot of issues in a an approachable way.
2) For many current disputes he’s had something say, especially when it comes to debunking ages-old bullsh*t.
3) He’s been right more often than any other economist, or at least living economist.
4) I notice that I see rightwingers b*tching at him, but I don’t seem them saying ‘Read X, because he’s been right when Krugman has been wrong’.Report
Barry,
I hear fucking leftwingers saying read Mises because he’s right when Keynes is wrong.
Maybe it’s because I listen to folks who have worked with Krugman (who is, for the record, a good guy with decent insights).
3)??? Jeepers, talk about silly. Him and DeLong, and a bunch of other folks have all been talking the same talk for so long that they can finish each other’s sentences. Besides, you haven’t even mentioned Dr. Doom…Report
Barry,
I have repeatedly encouraged people to read Krugman’s pop econ books. And his textbook is deservedly one of the most widely used.
My objection is not to Krugman, even though I am not always in agreement with him. My objection is to people who think that they only economist they need to ever read in order to understand things is Krugman. The answer “read Krugman” is exactly equal to the answer “read Friedman” or “read Mises,” etc. etc. If all you read is Krugman, all you’ll have is Krugman’s take on the argument. And just because he makes a critique of someone else’s argument does not mean he’s always right, or that they don’t have a good rebuttal–but you’ll never hear their counterarguments if the only economist you read is Krugman.
You want some enlightening reading? Here’s a nice list of articles showing what’s wrong with macroeconomics. Ultimately it’s naive to cling to any particular economist’s macroeconomic arguments because macro is a hell of a messy field, with not a helluva lot of consensus. And Krugman’s op-eds are his approach to that field, which of course he tries to sell with all his abundant rhetorical skill (as would any of his critics, were they in his place), but they are not unvarnished proven macroeconomic truth, no matter how often he asserts that all the data (he sees fit to address–again, no differently from his critics) is on his side.
He’s not the problem, I say again. And I encourage everyone who wants a quick but valuable introduction to economic thought to read his pop econ books. The problem is those for whom Krugman is their only economist.Report
“My objection is to people who think that they only economist they need to ever read in order to understand things is Krugman. The answer “read Krugman” is exactly equal to the answer “read Friedman” or “read Mises,””
Well, the thing is, if you believe one, it is hard not to believe the other is a crank.
I don’t need to read a bunch about 9/11 trutherism, even if it is clever and presented carefully, and well respected by a lot of people. I’ve been exposed to the idea and believe that it is bunk, and it won’t pay for me to keep reading more and more about either Mises or 9/11 trutherism.
That’s not to say that Mises is as crazy as a truther, just to say that some controversies between the views of X and Y should be mostly ignored by most of us and only X’s view learned and thought about.Report
Here is Delong not respecting Mises at all. Mises Vs Delong isn’t two views that respect each other as being “maybe right,” but one must be crazy and the other not.
IMO, Delong and Krugman are the non-crazies and Mises is the truther. Maybe you think Mises is right. (Maybe someone thinks trutherism is right.) But they can’t both be reasonable approximations of the truth that reasonable people disagree about.
IMO.
“In comments, rootless_e warns:
Attempts to make sense out of right wing Austrian economics can never amount to anything.
Nevertheless, like a moth to a flame–or like a dog to vomit, or like a dog to something worse–whenever I see something like:
Ludwig von Mises: Attempts to carry out economic reforms from the monetary side can never amount to anything but an artificial stimulation of economic activity by an expansion of the circulation, and this, as must constantly be emphasized, must necessarily lead to crisis and depression. Recurring economic crises are nothing but the consequence of attempts, despite all the teachings of experience and all the warnings of the economists, to stimulate economic activity by means of additional credit…
I find myself under a mysterious but inexorable and irresistible compulsion to waste what would otherwise be productive work time trying to make some kind of sense of it–to at least understand wherein lies the error, and how somebody trying very hard to understand the economy (never mind that he is a big fan of the political leadership of Benito Mussolini) can go so pathetically wrong.”
http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2011/11/fictitious-wealth-and-ludwig-von-mises.htmlReport
Well, the thing is, if you believe one, it is hard not to believe the other is a crank.
No, the thing is if you only read one, you’re in no position to judge him/her vs. others.
And I’m not talking about Mises, but I suppose from your perspective it’s necessary to assume that, instead of a more serious target. There are a number of serious living economists–non-Austrians, as a matter of fact– challenging Krugman. That you have to resort to a dead guy, and automatically assume just the Austria s, instead of knowing any of Krugman’s contemporaries, tends to reinforce my point.Report
I was responding to this:
” The answer “read Krugman” is exactly equal to the answer “read Friedman” or “read Mises,” etc. etc.”
That is why I used Mises. Just using your example. Didn’t mean anything by it.
Sure, there are some people who are a little closer to Austrians in their outlook whose ideas are within the bounds of reasonable, even if you accept the Delong-Krugman-Avent-Baker-WrenLewis-Wolf-Summers axis’ view. Maybe Greg Mankiw is a good example of a right-leaning, or Austrian-leaning, mostly New-Keynsian guy who should be read on occasion.
But you can be aware of their general approach just by reading Krugman and a few others. And most of the differences between the mildly Austrian-leaning and the Delongs and Krugmans matters so little that you can just read the Delongs.
You can ignore the Austerians and the goldbugs and those too far to that pole altogether once you have any sense that the Krugman-Delong-etc. axis is correct, which you should.Report
Who are the serious Austrians?Report
I’LL TELL YOU WHO A SERIOUS AUSTRIAN WASReport
Sigh, you’re still focusing on Austrians. Forget about the Aystejans, they’re neither here nor there. Focus on the non-Austrian critics of Krugman, and if you don’t know their names, and can’t identify them with their schools of thought, then you’re still demonstrating my point.Report
Who are the serious Austrians?
Not that I said anything about serious Austrians, but I’d their Arnold Kling’s name out there. Reading him can help dispel the cartoonish vision so many people (libertarians included, mind) have of Austrian economic theory. There is some good stuff in there if you have eyes to see, but it can be hard to look past all the whackjobs who mistakenly think it’s all about goldbuggery (and so provide a convenient foil for those who want to dismiss it in toto without really understanding it).Report
By non-Austrians, are you thinking of Hayekians, like the guys at Cafe Hayek? Russell Roberts is the main guy there, IIRC. Everything I say about the Austrians applies to the Hayekians too. If you accept the Delong-Krugman-WrenLewis-Wolf-etc. view, then hard-core Hayekians are as reasonable as 9/11 truthers, and the mild Hayekians are probably mostly wrong, even if more reasonable.
Here is Delong using scare quotes around describing Roberts as an “economist.”
http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2010/02/economist-russ-roberts-liar.html
If you mean that there are people who disagree with Krugman and whom Krugman disagrees with on some details of economics within the axis I’m referring to, sure. No two people agree on everything, and I suspect no two economists agree on all the details.
But if you don’t have time to learn about the minutiae of economics, I suspect you will find a tremendous amount of basic agreement amomgst the non-Austrian, non-Hayekian, non-goldbug economists, and so if you only need the basics, reading Krugman (or Delong, or Wren Lewis) is enough to be pretty well-informed about the truth.
By analogy, you don’t need to read all the Rationalists to understand the basics (and what is important) in Rationalism.Report
Not sure (really I don’t know) if Kling is only a part-time, not very influential academic, who mostly blogs simple explanations of laissez-faire politics and economic ideas. (Is he really a serious economist? Maybe he is. Still, Mankiw is a good example of a serious economist, even if Kling isn’t.)
There is a paper from Kling arguing that Krugman has understated the problem that government debt causes for future generations. But it is pretty mild and the Krugman axis has a response along Noahpinion’s lines here:
http://noahpinionblog.blogspot.com/2012/01/is-debt-burden-on-future-generations.html
I think if you read Krugman, (and or Delong or Avent or someone from the axis) you’ll see them explaining these possible objections and refuting them or pointing out how they are resolved.
I wouldn’t say Kling is an essential read for anyone. If you need important economic basics, you don’t need him, and serious detailed scholarship (maybe with exceptions, what do I kmow) largely runs around him, not through him.Report
Shazbot:
1. Hayekians are a branch of Austrians, so you’re still showing that you don’t know who else is out there.
2. Of course Krugman, et al, have responses. Others have responses to those responses. Apparently you don’t read them, so you’re assuming that Krugman’s, et al’s, responses are conclusive, but you don’t really know because you are unfamiliar with the responses to their response.
For the record, I do read Krugman and DeLong. I have their blogs bookmarked, along with a number of others. This is a large part of my point–I’m not limiting myself to a narrow range of economic opinion, in contrast to many devout Austrians as well as many Krugman devotees.Report
P.S. if you think Kling only makes simple laissez fairs explanations then I think you don’t understand how his argument about patterns of sustainable specialization and trade are a challenge to Keynesian arguments. Is he right? I don’t know, but if you understand his argument, it’s not so readily dismissable as “simple laissez faire.” The question is, are you willing to challenge your preconceptions bt making a serious attempt to understand his argument ( and I mean serious, not just skimming if looking for the things you don’t like, and not immediately turning to Krugman to justify rejecting it, but chewing on it for a while before coming to conclusions).Report
Shaz,
Look here: I just read that portion you quoted from Mises. He’s right. MOST monetary policy makes bubbles (perhaps a very well tuned one might not). The policy we’re employing right now will probably make a bubble.
And more importantly, for the time he was writing, he was right.
Many people have had important insights. (Milton Friedman’s insights are most interesting, because he changed his mind on a variety of things…)Report
You notice that I told you to look at the f-ing data. I understand that is unpleasant, but so be it.Report
Dude, you don’t know me, and you don’t have any idea how many times I’ve looked at that data and how many different interpretations of it. That I’ve almost certainly given serious attention to more contending interpretations than have you is why I’m not too impressed with your insistence. As Darwin said, ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.Report
Mike,
I think the actual implementation of the New Deal was a-ideological, or at least the ideologies were diffuse and contentious, more a struggle by interested parties to get wheat the could out of the deal.
However, once the New Deal state was in place, its defenders (as well as its opponents) could be intensely ideological.Report
Good point. And clever reference to Wickard v. Filburn. 😉Report
“Why do you think Republicans and libertarians embraced consistency as a standalone virtue faster than Democrats?”
I’ll be discussing this in greater detail later in the month, but for now the short answer:
I think it’s because since the mid-90s, conservatives have chosen to increasingly partition off mainstream information sources in favor of sources that do little but champion “conservative ideals.” They’ve chosen to praise consistency more because an increasing number or them have been in a self-made box that reinforces the wisdom of never wavering from dogma for a decade or more longer than Dems.
As I say, more later.Report
I’m salivating in anticipation.Report
“I don’t belong to an organized political party. I’m a Democrat”-Will Rodgers.
More seriously:
The Democratic Party has always been made of too many disparate parts to be ideologically consistent. The older Democratic Party was made up of the white South (which caused plenty of problems and shameful history) and a more urbanized and often working-class Northern base. New York City was a Democratic town from the early days of the Democratic Party. The Tammany base was largely filled with working-class and often recently arrived immigrants starting with the Irish. Even during the Gilded Age, you had arguments between “Bourbon” Democrats like Grover Cleveland and those that wanted more social justice like William Jennings Bryan. Roughly the same dynamic between “Blue Dog” Democrats/DLC types and the Paul Wellstone/Elizabeth Warren Democrats of today.
The Southern base is largely gone but the factions still remain. They are just different. Now the conservative wing of the Democratic Party tends to be technocratic, prefers things like the Earned Income Tax Credit to direct redistribution, etc, and is still wary of unions.Report
Also, you know, they got a lot of Republicans who joined. And the far left hasn’t really joined the Greens or anything, not in any real numbers.
Democrats have a very strong conservative wing, a sizeable moderate wing, and a small very very liberal wing — and a sizeable number of very liberal folks who vote for Democrats because, well, there’s no one else to vote for. It’s not like the GOP is an alternative, and everyone’s still angry at Nader.Report
I think its because many Republicans and libertarians have a relatively static, un-changing view of what government should or should not do and in case of conservatives what society should and should not look like. Libertarians have less static social views than conservatives. If your ideology requires a relatively unchanging version of government and society than you see consistency as a virture.
Liberals have a more loosely-goosey view of what government should and should not do and what society should look like. During the heyday of the Great Society, most liberals would have been revulted by open homosexuality and same-sex marriage. In fact, JFK’s adminsitration actively persecuted homosexuals out of the federal government. Now equality for homosexuals and same-sex marriage is part of liberal orthodoxy and a self-evidently correct. This was a pretty fast and radical change over a period of forty or fifty years. It practically snow-balled after the end of the Clinton adminstration.
There are doctrinaire leftists like Orthoodox Marxists and Anarchists that do stick to consistency though and have the same problems as Conservatives and Libertarians. They play a very small part in American politics becasue they are much further to the left than any elected official and do not participate in the Democratic Party actively.Report
I think its because many Republicans and libertarians have a relatively static, un-changing view of what government should or should not do and in case of conservatives what society should and should not look like. Libertarians have less static social views than conservatives. If your ideology requires a relatively unchanging version of government and society than you see consistency as a virture.
Bwahahahaha.
Yes, those consistent views that caused them to invent, then reject, cap and trade. Or invent, then reject, a health insurance mandate. Or invent, then pass, Medicare Part D.
I forget, are conservatives for or against immigration? (It rather depends on whether or not Hispanics vote for them.)
War? For or against? Jackbooted thugs, yes or no?
And those ‘static’ idea of suddenly deciding they were always against contraceptives.
Oh, and let’s not forget the ‘Let’s get rid of all taxes and replace them with a national sales tax’ supporters.
Right now, conservatives are against changing anything _solely_ because the group in power is not Republican, and it’s easy to stand there and assert they have a ‘static view of government’. But that is not actually true in any sense.
During the heyday of the Great Society, most liberals would have been revulted by open homosexuality and same-sex marriage. In fact, JFK’s adminsitration actively persecuted homosexuals out of the federal government. Now equality for homosexuals and same-sex marriage is part of liberal orthodoxy and a self-evidently correct.?
During the heyday of the Great Society, most conservatives would have been revulted by racial intergration. Now equality for the races is part of conservative orthodoxy and a self-evidently correct. This was a pretty fast and radical change over a period of forty or fifty years.
I would point out that this is an example of the fact ‘conservatives’ are not ‘static’ as much as ‘three decades behind liberal but changing at the same rate to maintain their gap’, but the actual fact is, civil rights have very little to with ‘the role of government’ in the first place.Report
The left had its experiment with intellectual consistency viz. Bolshevism. It didn’t work out too well.Report
Ideology has always been with us, and most of the time it seems pretty useful: it is a structured way of thinking about moral arguments that can help produce intellectually and ethically coherent outcomes.
Where ideology goes astray is when it becomes not much more than a signifier of a tribal identity. That is what I see prevailing now, particularly on the “right.”
There are currently a broad set of orthodoxies that don’t so much come from a moral-intellectual framework, but are believed simply because others we trust believe them (rather like Doug Wilson in your essay). There is no reason in the world that belief in global warming should be polarized along partisan lines, or civil rights, or conviction in the essential “foreignness” of President Obama. These attitudes seem to be more akin to a badge or a vest–something adopted to assure others in our peer group that we are one of them.
The sad part of the politics of the last 30 years (and most particularly of the post-Gingrich 18 years) is that, in the name of ideological “victory,” we are all being trained to hate and mistrust one another. (Remember, Gingrich trained his caucus to speak of liberals and liberalism using such words as “abuse,” “betray,” “bosses”, “cheat”, “corrupt”, “decay, “shame”, “traitors”–see
a copy of his famous memo Language: A Key Mechanism of Control .)
Ideology is no longer being used for moral reasoning, but primarily as a way of discerning “us” from “them.” And to the degree that it continues, our political dark age will persist.Report
Nice post Tod, just a few points:
1. My own college experience has been different. As I strive for greater and greater consistency, I find myself less and less sure of what I thought I was sure was right. More and more I find that the set of things I can prove with any reasonable confidence shrinks. Of course, getting back to the real world may involve me having to make judgments and guesses which I believe now I cannot rationally endorse, but it seems that consistency would involve me becoming less ideological not more, or is this wide ranging academic scepticism just another kind of ideology instead?
2. I like consistency. I really really like consistency. But I don’t think it would be inconsistent for Doug Wilson to endorse a broadly liberal order (which of course would not have slavery). He does not have to think that the liberal order was the best. He of course could not consistently think that. But it could be good enough. So, I don’t think you have to sacrifice consistency in order to get people to go along with their second best.Report
So, I don’t think you have to sacrifice consistency in order to get people to go along with their second best.
Could you elaborate on this Murali? I’m a bit confused by what you mean.
Suppose that a broadly liberal order excludes the possibility of slavery. Suppose that Christianity includes its possibility. That’s a pretty big inconsistency, it seems to me, and can only be reconciled by rejecting one of the two conflicting principles.Report
All ideologies may pick out one set of institutions as the best. In this case, slavery may well be part of the first best set of institutions as evaluated by Christians. But, some broadly liberal regime would be second or third best. Not perfectly just, but still within acceptable bounds as evaluated by the pro-slavery Christian. The pro-slavery christian (PSC) does not need to contradict any of his beliefs if he acknowledges that while there are some parts of the liberal regime that are contrary to his maximally preferred one, it does not alienate him from his values to such an extent that he has no all things considered reasons to accept the liberal order.Report
“More and more I find that the set of things I can prove with any reasonable confidence shrinks. ”
This seems healthy, and a sign of growth. More later, but I would argue that history’s greatest evils are perpetrated by “good” people who set out to do very large acts of “good” after the prove to themselves that they have proved a great Truth.
“But I don’t think it would be inconsistent for Doug Wilson to endorse a broadly liberal order (which of course would not have slavery).”
Nor do I. But one of the consequences of cultures that value the purity of consistency is that they never end up leaning toward “live and let live” attitudes. Ultimately, dogma followed without judiciousness cannot abide unbelievers. Sooner or later something goes wrong (because that’s the way the universe works), and consistent ideology will demand an inconsistent scapegoat.Report
Another word for consistent might be stubborn; an inability to change your mind in the face of new information is not a feature, it’s a flaw. My grandmother thought lead paint was awesome, it went on smooth in a single coat, and even out in the weather, it lasted. My father liked DDT, used to spray it everywhere.
What gets me in these discussions about slavery is where the crimes of slavery stop. Wilson sees rape of female slaves as wrong. That’s great. It’s actually progress of some sort. But what about the children of those female slaves? The fathers? From reading TNC, I know that the #1 impetus for slaves to run away is the breaking of their families; children and spouses sold away to another owner. Not beatings, not rapes. Family breaking. The longing for freedom was longing for the right to your family.
So when I hear some dumbass saying it’s not a sin because it’s in the bible, I want to go and take that person’s family away. Sell ’em off. We’ll see what they think is a sin, after. Recognizing that what we did yesterday, things like smearing lead paint on our windowsills, is wrong today is a good thing. Embrace your inner flipflops, wear them with pride.Report
” Wilson sees rape of female slaves as wrong. ”
But he wants to put people in the position in which rape would be commonplace, and not very preventable. It’s sort of like me abducting a woman, selling her to somebody, and disclaiming her rape as Not My Fault.Report
Also, _why_ does he see it as wrong?Report
You’ve never had someone volunteer to sell their kid to you as a “sex slave” (I think it involved marriage — this wasn’t me, but a friend of mine). They firmly believed that she’d have a better life with the “Nice American.”
… I repeat, when people talk about slavery, this is fucking reality. and for a lot more people than you might think.Report
That’s what I notice about Wilson – he’s a liar, pure and simple. He repeats centuries old lies about slavery, and pretends to a moral reason.Report
“Another word for consistent might be stubborn”
Perhaps, but I believe there is more there when we discuss followers of ideological dogma.
I am very stubborn about many things, but my stubbornness about them does not eventually lead to a conclusion that those that are not stubborn about those things are evil and must be “corrected,” willfully or otherwise.Report
If I believed in the Christian concepts of heaven and hell, I’d think most roads leading to hell are paved with good intentions. I’m certain that’s one of the major flaws to be aware of as a liberal.
But I also recognize there’s no hell for the creator of that evil resulting from good intention; no payment made in the afterlife. Instead, others live in the hell they create.Report
Yes, this is also my belief. And as well, no reward for having suffered or died early. Which is why it is so imperative to me that such not happen.Report
Fantastic post, Tod. As is typical.
I think part of the reason the ideological purity demand is worse within the Republican tent is the GOP’s recruitment of evangelical Christians to comprise a reliable base. Conflating political and moral ideals made compromise on the former much more difficult, and that lack of compromise has bled into other non-“moral” issues. The Christian Bible is chock full of exhortations to beware of false prophets and warnings to avoid becoming “lukewarm,” and a certain kind of Christian takes those warnings literally (well… not the lukewarm part) and very seriously. Asking for compromise is anathema.
It’s naive to rely on a certain kind of voter and then expect that their worldview won’t permeate into your political thinking.Report
Tod – I’m reluctant to comment on this article because I had disagreements with your original article that set up your premises. But I think I can make this comment without stirring any unnecessary pots.
The problem isn’t consistency or inconsistency; it’s shallowness. Shallowness often looks like consistency or defends itself on its consistency. But there’s no pure R or D options among health care reform possibilities, for example. The more shallow D’s assume that anything that’s more government is D, without considering the benefits and drawbacks of various plans. The more shallow R’s make the same assumption about anything that would decrease government being more R.
There are also shallow centrists who think that anything too D or R is too extreme, and feel very proud of themselves for walking the line between unanalyzed policies of both parties.
I think my analysis holds truer to the real world than yours. For example, talk radio isn’t just rising out of nothing; it’s a medium that’s clearly oriented toward shallow observation. You don’t have to be consistent or inconsistent on the radio, but you have to be shallow. And take the immigration debate: no one’s discussing the merits of particular policies (well, maybe 8 people are, but I don’t know if even they are). They’re labelling things as “amnesty” or “obstructionism”. One last example: the health care reform bill. It grew by something like 1000 pages in the 24 hours before its vote. Why? Were its supporters including well-reasoned policies that were consistent with the bill’s goals? No, they were going shallow: this makes things bigger, and bigger is good, so let’s include it.
This shallowness is reflected in the libertarian movement as well. There’s definitely a consistency among libertarians, but knee-jerk responses can be motivated by shallowness as well as by consistency. Rather than arguing how gay marriage, for example, is conservative, they cut themselves off from other conservatives and engage in the kind of white hat / black hat thinking that we saw recently when Rand Paul said something that didn’t sound like Ron Paul.
This comment’s getting long, so I’m just going to submit and hope it stimulates some interesting discussion.Report
There are also shallow centrists who think that anything too D or R is too extreme, and feel very proud of themselves for walking the line between unanalyzed policies of both parties.
That’s a heckuva good point.Report
Yes, but I find the choice between strict ideological dogma and amoral squishiness to be a false one.Report
It grew by something like 1000 pages in the 24 hours before its vote. Why?
Wouldn’t assuming it was for shallow reasons BE a sign of a shallowness? Offhand, I would wonder how much of that were amendments — most of them scheduled and considered in advance, but whose chance of passing was unknown.
(Better to add them as amendments so only that part fails, than package a deal breaker into the bill proper).
Too much of politics is..shallow like that. Let’s assume that a complicated tax code is a bad code. Why? Because it’s complicated. A long bill is a bad bill, because it’s so long. Senators don’t read every word of a bill, ergo they don’t know what they’re voting on. (And yet CEO’s and Board members who make critical decisions based on summaries and recommendations from expert staff do know what’s going on).
We boil so much down into simplicities….cardboard cutouts of real life, because complexity makes things into shades of grey instead of absolutes.
The same instinct that says “The correct answer must be half-way between each side” can be seen all over the place. Unwarranted assumptions based in ideology, disdain for complexity and fact, leaping to conclusions that fit your preferences instead of researching.Report
Yeah, possibly. As I recall many of the late additions to the health care bill were proposals that had been floating around for years. Certainly there hadn’t been enough time to integrate them.
I’m not sure if you’re saying that a long bill is a bad bill because it’s long, or if you’re saying that “a long bill is a bad bill because it’s long” is an example of shallow thinking. Maybe both?
Maybe I can illustrate my point with an analogy. A small town wants to increase its economic activity. There are possible road projects, an airport proposal, talk about a convention center, and deals in the works for an expanded port. R is shallow if he says “no” to all of them because they’d expand government. D is shallow if he says “yes” to all of them because they’d expand government. Either move would kill the town. The intelligent debate would consider each plan’s costs and benefits within each party’s consistent ideology.Report
Not really aware of many Democrats who are “pro” government in that sense. Seriously, the R’s have a very sizeable ‘small government’ wing, but there really is no “big government” wing on the left.
Democrats want to expand government where they think government works best, not because a bigger government is an goal in of itself. Sure, there are a lot of places they think government might work best….but there really is no Democratic counterpart to the folks on the right who think small government is a political goal in it’s own right.
As to the bill — I’ve heard people claim a bill is bad just because it’s long. Page count was greater than X, ergo the bill must be bad. Seriously.Report
There’s something to be said for the small-page-count argument. The larger the bill –
the more likely it is to be confusing or unthought-out.
the more likely it is to have unintended consequences.
the more likely it is to contain measures that wouldn’t be accepted otherwise.
the greater the pressure to support “monumental” legislation.Report
Not really aware of many Democrats who are “pro” government in that sense. Seriously, the R’s have a very sizable ‘small government’ wing, but there really is no “big government” wing on the left.
Indeed. Every position officially taken by the Republican party, seems to be ‘The government should always been smaller’. In fact, often when the smaller government option is taken, the GOP turns around and _demands it becomes even smaller_, even if we just did exactly what they said. Witness health insurance mandate, the ‘small government’ version of fixing health care. Or cap and trade, the ‘free market’ version of stopping pollution.
The _few_ examples of Republicans wanting government to be bigger in _any_ sense is when it makes sprawling bureaucracies to create some sort of private industry partnership that exists solely to funnel money out of the government (Aka, Medicare part D, our military using mercenaries, etc.)
Otherwise, the answer is _literally_ ‘make government smaller’ as the solution to every conceivable problem. Their policy is simply their policy.
So Republicans often seem to assume that Democrats are operating in the opposite manner. That their answer is to make government ‘bigger’.
Democrats…do not think like that. The Democrats, for better or for worse, still exist to attempt to solve problems. And, yes, the answer in politics is usually ‘Use the government’, but that’s just because, duh, the politicians are _in charge_ of the government.
Or, in other words, the Democrats are carpenters who suggest building every structure out of wood. Which is, indeed, sometimes not the correct solution. Sometimes the free market will make metal structures, and sometimes nothing actually needs to be built at all. But the Democrats are at least trying to solve problems, and, as the people we have put in charge of the government, attempt to solve them via the government.
Republicans, OTOH, are carpenters who insist that nothing new ever be build using wood, under any circumstances, and that all wood structures be modified to use less wood, and it appears by ‘less wood’ they actually mean ‘no wood’. Structures should instead be build out of metal…which means, as carpenters, they will just _stand there_ and hope metal structures appear out of thin air. And then they complain that the lack of magical metal structures is due to too many wooden structures.
(Or, rather, this _used_ to be true. At this point, it’s clear the Republican’s entire operation exists solely to foil Democrats in whatever way they can. They are, in a phrase that seems to be making the rounds, ‘post policy’. They exist solely to say and do random things that will cause people to vote for them, and would be completely happy if they never actually had to cast a vote. I am describing the Republicans of a decade ago.)Report
Functionally, is there any difference between seeing everything as a problem that needs more wood and being in favor of more wood?Report
Yes. The difference is whether or not a problem is there to _be_ solved in the first place.
Democrats may say ‘Well, there’s a hole in the side of that, and we only have wood, so we have to patch it with wood’. (Which is workable for a house but not really for a car.)
What they don’t say is ‘We need to use more wood, let’s just pile it on the roof and in front of the door and keep having shipments of wood delivered everywhere.’ That would be the equivalent of being in favor of ‘more government’ as some sort of abstract.
Democrats are using wood to solve problems, sometimes well, sometimes poorly, but the problems really do exist. And they only reason they seem fixated on wood is that they are only in charge of wood…they have no other options.
Meanwhile, Republicans are wandering around removing wood from already existing structures that work just fine. Structures where there is not actually a problem, or where the problem that a hole exists already. And they’re just sorta _imagining_ that something replaced the wood.
I think I’ve taken that analogy about as far as I can go.Report
Can’t think of a single piece of wood that Republicans have actually removed. In most cases, they’re saying that we’re running out of wood, we owe trillions of trees already, you’re asking for 5% more wood every year, and what are you doing repairing the first floor of a skyscraper with wood anyway? This needs a more solid foundation than anything you’re using, and the whole thing is going to collapse.Report
actually, they’re busy selling off the trees to the highest bidder on the free market and to then mining the land that used to be a forest.Report
I’m not sure what you mean – maybe we really have pushed the analogy too far.Report
Can’t think of a single piece of wood that Republicans have actually removed.
‘Running around removing wood’ was an exaggeration on my part. They almost never got anything passed like that. That’s mostly because there have been two different trends in the Republican party, and they sorta cancel out the other, causing nothing to happen.
The first is the what I’m describing, where all government is bad, period, and all government should be removed, period. This is getting stronger and stronger, and started skyrocketing the instant that Obama took office. Let’s call this trend A. (This has always been sorta the stated position of Republicans, but they clearly didn’t _believe_ it until recently.)
The most ‘pure’ example of this was during the last election, when various candidates asserted they would remove multiple _entire Cabinet Departments_.
The other slope is their willingness to actually make policy, which has constantly decreased since Obama took office. Let’s call this trend B.
So at some point in the past, Republicans would sometimes propose insane ideas, like Bush trying to privatize Social security. But other Republicans were not not as high on A, and shoot it down.
Nowadays, of course, Republicans are willing to literally do anything like that as they are all have high enough A, (Witness the Paul Ryan budget, which privatized Medicare)
But the Republicans are not even _trying_ to get actual laws passed anymore by the actual government…bills exist solely to vote for or against and than run around yammering about how they voted. Yes, yes, it would be pretty hard for them to get things passed now, but they are not actually trying to come up with anything that could pass. They have hit bottom on B. Their sole remaining policy seems to be ‘tax cuts’.
The only ‘wood removing’ ones that passed were ones that no one actually understood what was going on when they did pass. NAFTA and crippling then repealing Glass–Steagall spring to mind. (Which also, you may note, got Democratic support.)Report
And let me clarify my point. There are plenty of shallow people on the left/right who root for anything representing bigger/smaller government or a victory for a D/R just because it’s their team. It doesn’t matter how many experts there are who can articulate the D/R position well; there is an increasing and increasingly vocal number of D’s/R’s who will support little more than caricatures of their party’s or side’s policies. If you can’t see that this is true on both sides of the “/”, you’re missing something.
Now, it’s tough to tell who the reasonable or dim people are a lot of the time. This is because we talk in shorthand. This is a bigger problem than we realize. The thoughtful conservative may support the reduction of tax rates on investment earnings along with the elimination of tax loopholes, believing that this would be revenue-neutral and have a positive impact on the economy. He may express this by saying “the rich pay more than their fair share”. Another thoughtful conservative would hear that and know what he means. A dim conservative may hear that and think “the rich pay more than their fair share”, and believe that’s a fully-formed opinion. A dim liberal may hear it, think “no they don’t”, and think that’s a fully-formed opinion. The intelligent liberal may use that short-hand statement against the intelligent conservative to score points. Of course, as above, this applies to either side of the aisle.Report
+1. The BHL post that Murali’s Self-Criticism post referenced had in turn referenced a Bryan Caplan post along similar lines, though specific to macroeconomics.Report
Good link. Krugman’s comment is like a how-to guide for selection bias. It’s a common enough failing, but it’s particularly ugly on an economist.Report
I don’t entirely agree, because you’ve changed it from what you stated the ‘shallow’ opposition was. There are shallow people on both sides. What Morat20 and I were disagreeing with was that shallow people on the left were in favor of ‘more’ government.
The ‘shallow’ position on the right is, indeed, less government. Anti-government.
The ‘shallow’ position on the left is _not_ more government. It might be just randomly giving large amounts of money to the poor, or demanding that businesses hire minorities, or demanding that no one ever build anywhere that animals live, or whatever.(Although those are more parodies of the left that don’t actually exist, but I will assume that they exist in real life _somewhere_.)
But the left, even the shallow left, is not ‘pro-government’. If, for example, someone were to propose that the government build an FBI station in every single town and staff it, the shallow left would be just as confused as everyone else.
Even the most shallow person on the left is only ‘pro-government’ to the extent that they think they have a problem and they think they have come up with a government solution to it. They’re not ‘pro-government’ in some sort of abstract. (1)
OTOH, if someone were to propose closing down post offices…hey, wait, the right actually is trying to secretly do that, right now. And there no problem with the post offices right now, and the right is working, right now, to get rid of them, for no reason other than they are ‘government’.
1) Well, I presume there’s some shallow left person who has come to the conclusion that to create jobs government should make up pretend jobs and hire everyone for them, and to do that the government should become huge as a goal in and of itself to ‘create jobs’. But even this imaginary person is only ‘pro-government’ in that they think the government would be solving a problem.Report
One last example: the health care reform bill. It grew by something like 1000 pages in the 24 hours before its vote. Why? Were its supporters including well-reasoned policies that were consistent with the bill’s goals? No, they were going shallow: this makes things bigger, and bigger is good, so let’s include it.
This was (and still is) silly. It’s like suggesting ‘big’ or ‘small’ are good measures of government.
There are rules of how legislation is written; silly little rules. Documents that fit into a handfull of pages can take several times that amount when finally formatted for print as an official bill. That’s a very big part of the ‘why,’ and I’m sure there are lawyers here who can explain it better; but I do know that formatting legal language into actual bills is highly specialized, complex, and uses reams and reams of unnecessary paper if things were, instead, printed compactly like the average magazine or newspaper.Report
I can speak to the formatting rules for Colorado’s state legislature from experience. The legislature’s perspective is that there is an enormous mass of existing statute. Bills make changes to that corpus, and are structured to allow someone reading the bill to see: (1) what existing language remains unchanged, (2) what existing language is removed, (3) what new language is being inserted and where, and (4) how will the modified statute read. So you end up with a document that consists of a list of “deltas” like, “In Colorado Revised Statutes, 39-26-703, amend (2) (d) as follows…” with existing language in normal font, parts to be dropped in strike-through, and new language in small caps. Setting your mind in the right mode allows you to do all four of the things mentioned above. Bills that touch existing statute in several places can quickly become quite large. Committee reports are written as deltas-to-the-deltas, or deltas-to-the-deltas-to-the-deltas. During the session that I was lead staffer for the House Appropriations Committee, it was my responsibility to proof all of that committee’s reports. A former career that included computer programming was useful experience — mismatched punctuation is mismatched punctuation, no matter the setting. There was a certain amount of brain-damage — I still think that ending a sentence with ;”,”.;”. is an okay thing.
Health care financing was already complex, touching lots of parts of the tax code, lots of parts of other human services programs, etc. Even if the approach had been something conceptually simpler — eg, Medicare for all replacing all other government spending on health care — the document would have been enormous, just because there are so many places that changes would have to be made.Report
Talk radio is for the goldfish-brained conservative core believers. You have to fit your points into 5 minutes of screaming before the commercial break and then be ready to repeat the screaming after the commercial break. It helps to have an audience with all the short-term memory of goldfishes who come round the bowl after the break saying “hey look, a castle” all over again.Report
“The problem isn’t consistency or inconsistency; it’s shallowness.”
I agree that this a large part of it, but it is certainly not all of it. I mean, Sean Hannity is certainly shallow, but having read and watched Wilson it is difficult to make that assessment of him. He is remarkably well read, and I would argue, deeply thoughtful. So I’m not sure that I conclude that you have to be shallow to get to a place to approve of evil acts like slavery.
If anything, I would argue that what he lacks isn’t depth, but empathy.Report
See, I began that sentence with “the problem”. That’s sloppy on my part. So let me clear it up.
I’m saying that “the problem” isn’t that some guy supports slavery. The problem that you are addressing in this series of articles, as I understand it, is the weird, paralyzing partisanship and/or ideological stiffness we’re seeing more of. You used the slavery guy as an example of the problem.
I see the problem of partisan/ideological whatever as being driven by a different force. Let me tell you about a friend of mine: a huge Georgetown basketball fan. Ridiculously high expectations for the team. Every call that goes against them is bad. He watches their games with the sound off, because he can’t handle the commentators saying things like “the other team is playing well”. He’s also a political junkie – in the exact same way. I’ve never seen this kind of sports-fan thinking in politics before, but I’m seeing it a lot lately. It strikes me as uniquely shallow. Any congressman who votes on our side is a good guy until he votes against our side, then he’s a bad guy. If a reporter doesn’t cover the latest scandal, he’s a bad guy; if he does, he’s probably deflecting or covering up the real dirt.
It’s a type of paranoia, and no matter how complicated paranoid fantasies get, they’re simplistic in their view of The Opposite Side. Any type of analysis of our current political problem should deal with this shallowness as a major element.Report
Ideology helps us make sense of a world rife with randomness. Also helps temper the dissapointments from a Just World worldview.Report
Tod, one thought that I have about your article is that if we have to actually re-fight the intellectual battle against slavery, then perhaps your philosophy is wrong. Frankly, we know what Wilson is – a BEEEEEEEEEEEEPing racist BEEEEEEEEEEEP, who uses the Bible in the most selective manner possible, to justify his pre-existing racist BEEEEEEEEEEEPery.Report
Really interesting piece, Tod. It challenges many of my assumptions. As you can see from some of the questions I pose here, I can be doggedly consistent, often to a fault. “Hey, if I have a natural right to a gun for self-defense, obviously I have a right to a nuclear weapon. As does Iran.” Pulling back, I often realize that this is not actually what I believe, but is the logical conclusion I either arrive at or see off in the distance absent a principled change of direction. “Well, that’s just different,” or, “That’s just the way it’s done,” doesn’t work for me. But once a principle is articulated that can reasonably justify why a strict adherence to consistency is unwarranted, I can accept it. I just need that principle to be there.
I don’t know what this says about me but I appreciate this essay for giving me a different way to think about how I view the world and arrive at my positions and perspectives.Report
As others have said, an excellent post.
I agree with LeeEsq though and think that partisanship might be natural. So is living among like minded people for a variety of factors. I know it is fairly fashionable to bemoan political parties and bring up Washington arguing against them. However, political parties are natural. People are going to join together for a bunch of like minded goals. There is strength and pooling of resources in numbers.
Same with the Big Sort type of stuff. Living among like-minded people might produce more extreme politics but it also reduces a lot of blood pressure issues.Report
” In his earlier work Southern Slavery, As It Was, Wilson makes the profoundly odd and inflammatory argument that “slavery produced in the South a genuine affection between the races that we believe we can say has never existed in any nation before the War or since.” ”
Well, that’s ‘Thou shalt not lie’ as a verse which doesn’t seem to bind Wilson much.
” I want to stress once again that despite these statements, Wilson is not an outlying pariah in the mold of Fred Phelps; he is greatly respected by peers, allies and opponents on the left alike. He just also happens to be someone who has reasoned out that it’s perfectly acceptable (and in certain cases, good) to own people.”
This says more about the people who respect him. One the right it’s probably a simple matter of slavery not being a deal-breaker,. On the – very likely not left, but squishy ‘why can’t we all get along?’ sorta liberals – the fact that they have neither the integrity or b*lls to stand up for something.Report
Before we go too far declaring that Wilson speaks for a growing number of people, I have to say that I’d never heard of the guy. He’s a preacher in Idaho. It’s not like Hitchens or Sullivan are tough to coax onto stage for a debate. Wikipedia says that New Saint Andrews College has an academic staff of 17.Report
To be fair, Hitchens is getting tougher.Report
Not really. It’s not that hard to keep repeating well worn cliches.
Besides, there’s always Niall Ferguson to take up the mantle of “Sully’s completely bigoted but nice to Sully asshole”.Report
Wilson probably speaks for a growing number of people, but it’s a quite small number of people that isn’t growing astronomically, although it probably is growing in certain circles where formal Classical educational systems and very conservative Reformed thinking overlap.
Basically, he’s what I’d consider a fundamentalist-minded Reformed type with some rather unorthodox theological positions. (Federal Vision, if anyone cares to get into the weeds) I can’t actually tell if his extreme focus on hierarchy is a result of the theology, or if the theology is used as a defense of the hierarchy obsession, but I’d almost wager money that the two are related. The slavery defense is one aspect, his praise of patriarchy (yes, actually, full-on male-dominant, father-as-king-of-household patriarchy) as a Good Thing is another.
But he’d really, really like it if lots of people started assuming he speaks for a wide swath of Christians, I’m sure.Report
“… he is greatly respected by peers, allies and opponents on the left alike. ”
BTW – are any of these ‘opponents on the left’ black?Report
Great post Tod. A couple things: Wilson’s statement that slavery produced a genuine affection is bit more then odd and inflammatory. It’s a direct rationalization that slave holders used. He isn’t even really re-framing it at all. Its a bit much to laud the intelligence of a guy who uses the rationalization of the powerful to justify the predations of the powerful.
Lot’s of pixel have been spilled over the idea that people are naturally partisan or ideological. I’m not really sure about that so i’ll push back. For most of human civilization people have lived in small villages, tribal groups or in small areas of cities. The life we have now where we can frequently travel far away from our home and also interact with many people from all over the world is relatively new and open to far more people than in years past. So most people had to be able to get along with the same darn people you were raised with and going to die with. You had to keep the peace with your extended family and every body else in the smallish circle of people that likely made up most of all the people you would ever know. Given that situation i tend to think people used to prize getting along with each other and finding ways to avoid partisan fights with each other. Of course that could also mean people kept their partisan battles for people on the other side of the next hill and all believed the same things in their own village. But i think there is a point to be made that people used to have work at getting along with each other when you lived in small communities. Being to partisan is not good for the peace in a small community.Report
But being partisan is especially good for the tribe. When you are partisan, you think that even if Joe is a bit different, since he is your tribe he is okay. That’s why lots of Democrats are willing to forgive Obama on what would be uncoscionable if done by a Republican. Partisanship is all about the tribe and not about the ideology. (Which is why I think partisanship is the opposite of the impulse to be ideological)Report
But to much partisanship also risks serious friction. Inside tribes/groups/villages there is a need to get along with people. Sometimes people deal with that by stuffing all their emotions until they are a barely contained stew of anger or they just move away. But for most of human history people had to be able to work and live with people for most if not all their lives. That requires some ability to see past ideology or keep the partisan hate focused on the out group.Report
lol. no, it meant stealing from your sister when the gypsies were in town.
and boinking your brother’s wife, who then mysteriously has a changeling.
(oh, the second’s just england. in France, they’d boink the next town over’s wives).Report
“Great post Tod. A couple things: Wilson’s statement that slavery produced a genuine affection is bit more then odd and inflammatory. It’s a direct rationalization that slave holders used. He isn’t even really re-framing it at all. Its a bit much to laud the intelligence of a guy who uses the rationalization of the powerful to justify the predations of the powerful.”
To me “slavery produced in the South a genuine affection between the races that we believe we can say has never existed in any nation before the War or since.” is far more than a ‘bit more then odd and inflammatory.’.
I can’t see how anybody could read that, and conclude that Wilson is either severely and persistently deluded, or a liar.Report
But his slave was a slave!
No! His slave was a black guy!
His black guy was a slave?
Shit… I know it’s something like that…Report
I dont’ know why Wilson would be a liar. He seems honest enough to me. He just has a Gone with the Wind level understanding of slavery among his other faults. He clearly doesn’t know Jackpoop about what slavery was like which likely makes his rationalizations and rigidity easier for him.Report
“He just has a Gone with the Wind level understanding of slavery among his other faults. He clearly doesn’t know Jackpoop about what slavery was like which likely makes his rationalizations and rigidity easier for him.”
Well, we have two major possibilities:
1) He’s been writing on this for years, but somehow never found out what slavery was really like. He wrote an entire book on slavery, and somehow never found out what slavery was really like. He’s been giving lectures and sermons and debates on slavery for years, and and somehow never found out what slavery was really like.
2) He’s a racist liar who hides behind the Bible as needed.
Which would you bet on?Report
I’m not sure the point of this. I don’t think he is a liar. I think he’s a crank, a brittle rigid ideologue and ignorant of what doesn’t suit him and especially ignorant of the conditions of slavery in the US.Report
I thought that my point was rather clear – it’s pretty much impossible for him to be genuinely innocent and honest. He’s a liar, pure and simple.Report
Not sure why this particular subject (justifying slavery) should even be posted here but because I don’t see any need to bring up this hateful subject except to denounce its practice (since it still goes on in our world.) Anyone who how thinks owning another human being as property is good or ever was good is either crazy or very evil. As for the bible, who cares what it says on that topic – that book is confused, and says all sorts of strange things that are often sick, murderous, and frankly, at times unhinged (this being one of those.) Really, religion is not useful as a source of moral authority in today’s world or to prove any moral point.Report
Great post Tod.
One quibble (which someone might have raised above):
“When judged on the merits of Christian conservative consistency, everything Wilson says about slavery being an acceptable thing is completely, absolutely, one hundred percent correct.”
I think that’s highly debatable.Report
“Judiciousness” seems to be carrying a lot of water in this conversation, but I’m not quite sure I understand precisely what you mean by it. At its worst, I suppose it would look like a kind of mushy centrism that strives to stay firmly planted in the center of the Overton Window, no matter where the fringes have managed to pull it in their tug of war. At its best, a kind of hard-nosed pragmatism that concerns itself with the art of the possible in governance, not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.
The problem with this approach, as I see it, is two-fold. The first I already alluded to – even taking the most charitable interpretation of the principle, it places Inez’s judgment, to my mind, at too much the mercy of what’s occurring on the fringes. What seems reasonable and centrist is largely determined by the piles the extremes hash out; a judicious person in this sense seems to me to simply be swept along in history’s currents, not really an active particiReport
“Judiciousness” seems to be carrying a lot of water in this conversation, but I’m not quite sure I understand precisely what you mean by it. At its worst, I suppose it would look like a kind of mushy centrism that strives to stay firmly planted in the center of the Overton Window, no matter where the fringes have managed to pull it in their tug of war. At its best, a kind of hard-nosed pragmatism that concerns itself with the art of the possible in governance, not letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.
The problem with this approach, as I see it, is two-fold. The first I already alluded to – even taking the most charitable interpretation of the principle, it places Inez’s judgment, to my mind, at too much the mercy of what’s occurring on the fringes. What seems reasonable and centrist is largely determined by the piles the extremes hash out; a judicious person in this sense seems to me to simply be swept along in history’s currents, not really an active participant. What he believes to be reasonable was settled by the ideologues two decades earlier. As Keynes said, “practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.”
The other problem is that the principles of justice do not shift with the Overton window. No one was more injudicious in your sense, I believe, than the fire-breathing abolitionists. Stonewall was certainly injudicious. So was Selma, probably. The judicious view in 1970 was to support no-fault divorce, but not liberalization of sodomy laws, in 1990 the repeal o sodomy laws but not gay marriage, and in 2000 to support civil unions rather than gay marriage. Without injudicious people, we would make no progress at all.Report
Seconding this. And note that Wilson seems to be dragging people along, in this particular case.Report
Why say that consistency in ideas (I think you mean in ethical and political normative theories, not mathematics or physics, say) is not always a good thing?
Why not say that holding this dude’s ideas consistently is an awful and crazy thing?
I see no reason to blame consistency but rather these ideas. What am I missing?Report
What do you mean “when”?Report
I think that David Sedaris said it best:
Report
I did not read the other comments, so someone has likely already asked the question, How much would it cost to buy the gentle preacher? I’ve got a yard that is too large for me to handle these days and a great shed that he could sleep in at night. I would never beat him nor deny him water, but I would not stand for any preaching. bstrReport
This is a great post Tod, but I do have a couple of quibbles:
1) I think Wilson’s problems are due more to epistemology rather than consistency. Wilson’s problem is that he believes that a morally perfect, extra-dimensional entity arranged to have a book written that is the single correct guide to morality. That guide endorses slavery, so he has little choice but to try and reconcile what he knows with what he believes to be true. He’s trying for the good kind of consistency, making your beliefs consistent with the facts, he’s failing so badly because he has bad facts.
2) To follow on from above, I’n not sure consistency is precisely the right word for the problem you identify. I think the real problem is with having an overly simple ideology, the simpler your ideology is, the less recognition of trade-offs you all, then the more sacrifices you have to make to maintain consistency.Report
There is a larger consistency problem here right? Because if he has an epistemological problem, it is due to inconsistently applying sceptical scrutiny. i.e. he does not apply the same level of scrutiny to his own beliefs that he does to others’ beliefs.Report
Although that’s the exact opposite type of consistency problem that Tod was talking about. In any case, I would categorise Wilson’s problem as trying to be consistent and failing, rather than being too consistent.Report
With a particular and highly non-random failing.
What amazes me is that we have a history here, folks.
Do you think that he was just flipping through the Bible, and noticed verses on slavery, and slapped his forehead, saying “OMG, I’ve been not preaching in favor of this thing called ‘slavery’!”.Report
The funny thing is, that based on what Tod wrote, he doesn’t seem like a standard Neoconfederalist type, he accepts that American slave owners did horrible things to slaves, he just doesn’t think enslaving them was one of those bad things.
Don’t get me wrong, his morality is clearly utterly deranged. And maybe he harbours some racism that informs his views, after all I can’t read his mind, but I think the real problem here is that he’s earnestly trying to have a Biblical morality, that there’s just no way that can end well.Report
“Wilson’s problem is that he believes that a morally perfect, extra-dimensional entity arranged to have a book written that is the single correct guide to morality. That guide endorses slavery, so he has little choice but to try and reconcile what he knows with what he believes to be true. He’s trying for the good kind of consistency, making your beliefs consistent with the facts, he’s failing so badly because he has bad facts.”
And as I’ve pointed out, that book says a lot of things, many of which would get him in trouble with his congregation, society in general, and would have been noticed.
He’s lying. My question is why do people accept that particular lie?Report
“So how did we get here?”
We got here because modern Americans have been conditioned since birth to explode into pure angry emotion when they hear the word “slavery”. It’s like trying to have a conversation about alcohol with a member of the WCTU.Report
Yeah, why can’t we get back to the good old days when we all agreed slavery was a viable lifestyle choice you could make for other people?Report
Yes, and also if we were so conditioned, Doug Wilson would be accorded the sort of respect from ‘honest opponents’ that the next Idaho neo-Nazi got. Nobody would debate him, because there’s nothing to debate.Report
I don’t know why we can’t discuss slavery with the same calm, open-minded, evidence-based approach we use for Soviet Communism. Or Obama. But I repeat myself.Report
So uh…why isn’t this dude out protesting in front of Red Lobster?
I mean if the Old Testament mores on slavery are to be followed, prohibitions on shit like eating shell fish should be, too, right?Report
I’m pretty sure the New Testament was pro-slavery too. He can consider the old testament obsolete, and still have to be pro-slavery.Report
The Bible also looks approvingly on slaughtering masses of people, so I dunno.
But can someone who believes in inerrancy really just write off an entire testament?Report
I believe the stock phrase is “we live under a new covenant”.Report
Which is defined as needed, from everything I’ve ever seen on the subject.Report
The New Testament is rather clear on respect and obedience to be accorded to Caesar, as well. Has he stood in front of any slavery-tolerating audiences and condemned Birtherism or *any* disrespect in *any* way to President Obama? BTW, not just once, but with every single reference to slavery.
Just watching the heads explode would be funny.Report
Nether Testament is pro-slavery. “Remember, you were slaves in Egypt” isn’t a recommendation of it.Report
The New Testament spends a lot of time condeming a wide range of behaviour, but not slavery in a society where slavery was rife. This strikes me at least as tacit approval, add it to Romans 13:1 and 13:2
And you what sounds an awful lot like an endorsement of the political status quo, which included slavery.Report
I was busy all day yesterday and only made the one post to Morat about him writing an OP (which I still think he should).
As to the subject matter of /this/ OP, I concur with the folks who wrote this webpage. Kidnapping someone and forcing them into chattel slavery was not only forbidden in the bible, it was punishable by death. That is why in the story of Joseph, the brothers are well aware of the grace they have been given.Report
Nice page. I especially like:
Just as we see today, there are many people who will misuse the Bible for one primary reason:money. Report
So, can we consider the question “Does your epistemology condone slavery?” a Michelson-Morley experiment for morality and ethics? (I think we can)Report
Consistency is objective, though.
This is what’s behind “Zero Tolerance” policies in schools. We always hear about the ridiculous stuff, like the valedictorian who got expelled because his sister had a butter knife in the car when he dropped her off at another school, or stupid stuff like that. We don’t hear about how before that policy was in place, a black kid who said the word “gun” got suspended while a white kid who actually shot a gun on school property got a stern warning not to do that again.
The problem with “judicious” is that it’s very easy to look at a judicious result and say “he got a harsher punishment because he’s (targeted group)”. This is how we get the blind adherence to procedure versus a reasoned, nuanced, intellectual approach.Report
Jim, that’s a very good point – I hadn’t thought of that.Report