Jonah Goldberg’s Very Small Penis : How One NRO Correspondent Plans to Kill Your Children, Eat Your Puppies & Sodomize Your Kittens
I should probably start off by saying that as far as I know Jonah Goldberg has a fine and average sized (or bigger!) penis, and that to my knowledge he has never advocated any harm to your children. And for all I know he’s a vegetarian. But in this NPR interview (h/t Burt), he calls for a more openly argumentative society, and says that’s why he followed a book with the needlessly inflammatory title Liberal Fascism:The Secret History of the American Left, From Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning with one that had the needlessly inflammatory title The Tyranny of Cliches: How Liberals Cheat in the War of Ideas. So I hope, on the extremely small chance he should he ever read this, he knows I have his back with this post’s title.
Goldberg’s latest tome is a cry for liberals to stop using heart-string plucking cliches in place of well thought out, rational arguments when debating serious policy issues. As anyone who can recall when I was still a guest poster here knows, it’s a battle cry with which I am only too happy to join in chorus. Unfortunately, the new book is a hard one to get in a froth over either for or against, if only because I suspect he doesn’t take its thesis all that seriously himself. The NPR interview gives this away, I think. When the interviewer concedes that liberals often use cliches over rational arguments but points out that conservatives do this as well, he laughs and agrees, saying basically, “yeah, but I wanted to write about liberals doing it.” Also, when he talks about where he most runs into this phenomenon, he cites his visits to college campuses and interactions with students. I’m hoping this is just him tossing a little complimentary anti-college red meat to the Red State crowd, because otherwise it’s a little sad. Even if Goldberg is not my cup of tea policy wise, he is both an excellent writer and an obviously intelligent guy. So hearing war stories of him intellectually destroying a bunch of 18 year olds freshly away from living with Mom and Dad strikes me as similar to me thumping my chest after dominating my youngest son when we play one-on-one hoops.
So I get the impression that when Goldberg wrote this book, it was less a “powerful story that needed to be told,” and more of an “I’ve thought of aTop 5 example’s of liberal cliches that may or may not be true, but are just accepted as an argument stopper in and of themselves. They are:
new way I can package my blog posts and make a butt-load of money.” If so, my hat’s off to him. The only thing that keeps me from repackaging my blog posts into million dollar royalty checks is that tricky bitch, The Marketplace. And as I said I do agree with the book’s general thesis, if not the narrow scope of it. Tom, mensch that he is, listed Goldberg’s1. Diversity is Strength
2. Violence Never Solved Anything
3. The Living Constitution
4. Social Darwinism
5. Better to let 10 Guilty Men Go Free…
And to whatever degree these are used as arguments rather than points to argue about, I agree with Goldberg. Violence obviously solves lots of things, like… (wait for it)… Hitler! Or British rule over the American colonies. Or genocidal tin-pot dictators. Mind you, it has also historically been used to solve pesky issues like blacks wanting to vote, women back talking to their husbands and Treyvon Martin’s perpetual school discipline issues, so Goldberg is obviously correct that we should do our best to look both morally and rationally on a case by case basis where we are willing to accept destructive forces. The whole Social Darwinism meme was eye-rolling enough that even I wrote about it. And the blanket statement “Diversity is Strength” is as vapid and meaningless as “Any Attempt to Diversify Anything is Political Correctness.”
Unfortunately, the inclusion of only liberal transgressions – with the presumption that this is a singularly liberal problem – adds to the white noise rather than dampening it. Also, I would argue, it keeps the right in its current pattern of “gear everything toward media sales and rating over governance” that is keeping it from being the meaningful voice of fiscal conservatism this country really needs these days. And so in the spirit that Goldberg himself evokes (as well as my constant need to come up with blog post ideas), let me present – in no particular order – my Top 5 Cliches Used By the Right In Their War On Ideas:
1. Gay People Marrying Destroys the Sanctity of My Own Marriage: I think of this as the perfect example of an emotional “argument” for people that are anti-gay that doesn’t actually mean anything in any kind of rational sense. Gay marriage has zero effect on my own (or anyone’s) straight marriage, and yet this meme is passionately embraced by the right as a reason so powerful as to negate the need to actually debate same-sex marriage. It’s the kind of focus-group tested statement that allows people to be bigoted while simultaneously playing the victim card that the right so excels at these days. Also, it’s often championed by public figures that are divorced or caught in scandals outside their marriage bed; the lack of concern about this among its supporters has always seemed a tell-tale sign of its inherent lack of seriousness.
2. Terrorists Attack Us Because They Hate Our Freedom: … and also, I suspect, because they hate baby seals, the syndication of Family Circus, and those posters with the kitten clinging to a branch that says “Hang In There, Baby!” There are a actually a lot of reasons terrorists might hate us: we occupy and/or keep forces in other countries, our corporations will take their natural resources in a way that makes us richer than them, and we do have a history of being willing to prop up corrupt and evil governments if it suits our economic and security needs. And I will be the first to say that it may well be that in some (or many) of those circumstances it is best that we do so. It’s the kind of difficult argument that, as Goldberg might say, is well worth having: what are we really willing to do to be the country we want to be? Of all the potential foreign policy debates we might choose to have, I’d be hard pressed to think of a more important one. But the “They Hate Our Freedom” line isn’t meant to be a defendable argument; it’s meant to shut arguments down before they start.
3. Government Regulation is Bad: It certainly can be, and it often is. But it can (and often does) also protect us from corporate malfeasance in all kinds of forms. As I’ve noted here before, I work in risk management that among other things deals with employee safety issues. And one of the things we recognize is that around the time I was born the rule of thumb when building a skyscraper was if you could limit yourself to one death or catastrophic injury per story, you were doing pretty good. Such tragedies are almost unheard of these days, and the reason is entirely based upon governmental regulations and a mandatory workers comp system that made it less expensive for employers to be safe than to treat workers as cheap and disposable units. Does this mean all safety regulation is good? No, a lot of it is a joke. So arguing the merits of any particular piece of regulation is a good thing. But using the knee jerk argument “government regulation is bad” is lazy.
4. “Socialist:” Think of this as the counterpoint to Goldberg’s Social Darwinism cliche. As I have noted before, either the right has to use a definition of “socialist” so broad (e.g.: someone that uses the government to subsidize costs) that the whole of the GOP falls under its rubric, or it’s just an inflammatory piece of propaganda used to avoid actual debate.
5. Government Can’t Do Anything Right: There is a tremendous amount that government does very poorly, and I think there are a variety of reasons for this. One of those reasons is that government doesn’t (or shouldn’t) have the ability to service only those that are most profitable, the way my own business can. And for some services, this is probably a good thing. The military, for example, does not cut costs by only choosing to defend only those parts of the country that are either easily defendable or that provide the most tax revenue. Also, the size of it may (or may not) necessitate a level of bureaucracy that is incredibly inefficient. (Though, as I noted here, the idea that large private companies escape this same fate is largely a myth.) But we do have an infrastructure, and parks, and libraries, and live our lives amazingly (historically speaking) unafraid of military invasion from others who might covet our natural resources. Earlier this year a lot of conservatives including those at NRO pointed to a study that said after decade of New Deal liberalism, poverty didn’t really exist in America any longer and so safety nets were no longer necessary. I didn’t really agree with this argument, but those that did turned a pretty purposeful blind eye to the obvious conclusion of the argument they were citing: Roosevelt and his ideological progeny had created a system that eliminated poverty while simultaneously building one of the greatest economic forces the world has ever known. Again, I did not agree with the argument put forth by the right, but I recognized that if it were true it was the best argument for government intervention I had ever seen.
Honorable Mention: Thinking Simply Saying the Acronym “PC” Out Loud Is An Actual Argument*
So there are my five cliches for the right. I might quibble with Goldberg’s choices for the left, but not because I think he’s wrong; there are just a few I find more eye-rolling than his specific choices. (Hello, We’re Doing It For the Children!) What would be amazingly, astoundingly awesome is if Goldberg or any of his bloggy brethren passed these along (or cited some of their own) to make an actual attempt to change and improve the way we talk about public policy in this country. To really try to discard tired cliches that keep us from thinking, and instead engage in real and meaningful arguments about the people we want to be as we push farther into the 21st century.
But I’m not holding my breath.
*(Note: I am purposefully not including the War on Christmas, despite it’s being the very worst offender on either side, because it’s such an awesomely entertaining piece of crap meme I’m genuinely going to miss it when it finally peters out.)
I would also like to nominate: “That’s European.”Report
This amuses me because in Canada we have the same thing, but by the left and with the phrase “American-style”. If you want to rally opinion against a policy, just call it “American-style”. (Granted, sometimes the phrase describes things we should be avoiding – like our government’s support for mandatory minimum sentencing despite the serious problems the US has had with it – but it’s also an easy cliché and a fast way to appeal to emotion.)Report
Yeah, Katherine’s right; it’s really annoying. Even if it might be true, at times, it never really adds much to the discussion.Report
Well, we’ve broken the penes barrier when it comes to titles.
I did not have RTod in my pool for the person who did that.Report
I was the penis dark horse.Report
or the dark horse penis.
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I would like to claim that I think I was a frontrunner in that pool, but I probably wasn’t.Report
If sub-blogs count, I beat him by two months.Report
How did I miss that?
You weren’t in my pool either.Report
Tod’s simply taking my advice for generating more traffic.Report
Now the question is who you did have in your pool.Report
Yes. Inquiring minds want to know.Report
Yeah, I ain’t stepping on that landmine, thank you very much.Report
Captain Ryan seems the obvious choice (by which I mean David Ryan, although the other Ryan is probably not a terrible bet either).Report
You keep landmines in your pool?Report
You don’t?Report
I’ve found that naval mines work better in pools.Report
You have mines in your navel?Report
Om mane padme BOOMReport
Pshaw you vanilla kiddies. Everyone obviously knows I was #1 in Jaybirds pool.Report
Congratulations, Tod. A serious piece with some important points to make, and what do you get in the first ten comments?
Dick jokes.Report
I’m looking at it as a gift on a dreary, rainy Thursday afternoon.Report
I was gonna ask if you were up here in Seattle, but then I remembered you are in Portland, so you are probably sitting under the same rain I am.Report
In my defense, it is not only an essay that is a serious piece with important points to make, it is also a piece that references penes. Now, if you think that we ought not make jokes about penes in a piece that mentions penes, food taboos, and underage feline sodomy IN THE VERY TITLE, I’m afraid I’m going to have to ask you when it *WOULD* be appropriate to make jokes about penes.
(Perhaps we ought be asking ourselves why we haven’t disintegrated into a subthread discussing the importance of the trait of “happening” when it comes to penes in the same way that we discussed happening (and !happening) bewbs in the thread devoted to the subtleties hidden in the advertisement of beer.)Report
“In my defense”
Oh, I don’t think such is needed. This one is all on me.Report
I’m already working on my “happening penes” comment.Report
I, for one, can’t wait to learn what I need to do in order to make my penes happening.Report
If you’re able to use the plural in reference to your own, you’re already well across the finish line.Report
FTR: “Liberal Fascism” was the publisher’s provocative title, and sold a lot of books.
Also, Goldberg’s complaints are left-specific, and it would be facile to dismiss them out of hand.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/top-five-cliches-liberals-use-to-avoid-real-arguments/2012/04/27/gIQAFR1zlT_story.html
And certainly, it would do for the right to locate its own cliches. We should probably bash the right around here more often. Oh, and the libertarians too, who do not want government roads, water or police.
Q: How many Libertarians does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: None. The invisible hand of the market will take care of it. What are you, a socialist?Report
Tod said specifically in this post that he basically agreed with Goldberg’s list; that’s hardly facile dismissal.
I don’t know that “we” should bash the right more often. But introspection from anybody regarding the weaknesses in their own platform is generally welcomed, by me at least.Report
You’ll have to point out where I posted that libertarians don’t want roads or water. I’m forgetting.Report
“Libertarians want smaller government but they still drive on roads and have city water and dial 9-1-1” is a common Ice Burn thrown into arguments about economics. “Move to Somalia!” being the 100% Unblockable Combo finishing move.
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I have not actually heard the move to Somalia one. It is so utterly ridiculous that it’s hard not to kind of like it.Report
Besides, we all know libertarians are racists so they wouldn’t want to move to Africa.Report
Sure we would, all the better to dominate the darkies by overwhelming them with our free-market robber baron-ness.
Or something like that.
(end sarcasm)Report
The meme is that Libertarians utopia would be Somalia – said mostly in jest, but here’s the first that i had heard of it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QDv4sYwjO0Report
I’ve seen it many times. Apparently some leftists can’t see any middle ground between Canada and straight-up anarchy. I like to pretend that they’re the same ones who accuse us of black-and-white thinking.Report
Canadarchy?Report
oh, they don’t ALL drive on public roads, or use public airports, or public police.
just the stupid ones.
(n.b. if you’re about to flame me: take two deep breaths, and then ask yourself who’s more likely to talk about poor people as being stupid?)Report
I’m…not flaming anyone? I’m a little surprised that Tod had never heard the “Libertarian hypocrisy” arguments before. They’re pretty common on the Internet.Report
Oh, I see them… a lot. Especially here. Sheesh, look at my last post on libertarians and techies.
But I took Tom’s comment to be a rebuke for things I say, and I was simply asking him to show where I said such things. You’ll note I actually asked him to show where I used my posts to make those claims.Report
And I now see that this was an error on my part, right below.Report
We’re good, RTK.Report
that makes you a good duckie!
*gives a clawless bap on the wing*Report
Sorry, Tod, I was referring to a reliable LoOG comments section canard, not the OP. Appy-ologies.Report
Got it. My bad.Report
I, for one, am willing to bash the right more often.Report
Trouble, at least as I see it, is that people in general don’t want to think about policy. Political candidates and parties are flags to rally around, and policies are just devices to put on the flag. And it even makes sense for things to be this way. How much sense does it make to be an informed voter when the mass of uninformed voters will drown out your contribution? People like me and Jason, we’re paid to know this stuff. For everyone else, unless you find discussing these matters inherently pleasurable (and I’m assuming that’s the majority of the League’s readership) then it’s a waste of your time.
This is where pessimism about democracy comes from, and whils I minght not be willing to go with Murali’s solution, I think it would be healthy to develop a set of cultural norms where more deference to experts (on matters covered by their expertise) was considered appropriate; and that voting was not treated as so important that everyone should do it, but rather as so important that people should only do it if they’ve put enough effort in to understand the decision they’re going to make.
How to create those norms? Alas, I have no idea.Report
Do you continue to say this, regardless of how skeeved the makeup of our electorate gets? Say only the 1% are considered “knowledgeable” to vote?Report
Why not?Report
This is a point that is not made nearly enough, though I think you don’t go quite far enough in explaining why it’s a waste of most people’s time. It’s not just that the marginal impact of one vote is so small; it’s also that, in a reasonably stable democracy, political debate has comparatively little potential to dramatically affect the average person’s life. In such a democracy, you’re only very rarely going to get truly radical swings in policy from one government to the next, affecting all areas of life. And even when this is a possibility, accurate prediction of the short and medium term effects of major policy changes is pretty much impossible because there are so many variables involved that are completely out of the government’s control in all but the most closed societies.
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It is also a function of a government that governs, with small variations, both to and from the center. A frequent complaint made about the spectrum of viable political choices available to the U.S. voter is that they can choose between a center-right party and a centrist party; both are beholden to and servants of their big business donors; the policies they produce are functionally the same and differ from one another only in degree and rhetorical packaging. Both parties liked NAFTA, except for the elements of both parties that didn’t. Clinton cut welfare. Bush adopted Medicare Part D. Bush and Obama pushed for TARP and financial bailouts. Obama kept Guantanamo Bay open.
I’m not entirely sure I personal agree with this sentiment, outside of the realm of foreign policy where I really do percieve no substantial difference between what Democratic and Republican Presidents do. The disparity in the timbre of judical nominees from Presidents of the different parties is dramatic, and important. And it seems to me that partisan control of government at the state level can produce some dramatic differences. But if you were one to perceive that there is only going to be a marginal, incremental difference in the policies the government will adopt regardless of which party is in power, then politics in general becomes a fool’s debate, full of sound and fury yet resulting in no real impact upon one’s own life.Report
“It’s not just that the marginal impact of one vote is so small; it’s also that, in a reasonably stable democracy, political debate has comparatively little potential to dramatically affect the average person’s life. ”
That’s certainly true. There wasn’t much public input into CPSIA, DMCA, SOPA, the Patriot Act, DOT and FAA regulations on the design of vehicles and their employment, DHS decisions on what level of screening is appropriate for air travel, FDA determination that doctors should be the gatekeepers to medical care, BATF determination that marijuana is a felony-crime illegal drug…Report
Mark –
But, trajectory of policy matters, doesn’t it? I’d agree that the marginal impacts of single policies are rarely impactful, but the cumulative effects often are. The path the US has followed over the last 30 years is dramatically different than the course it was on before then.
This suggests to me that policy debates are in some respects more important than the legislation they lead to. It is in the debates that the philosophical terms are set. Obama was correct when he stated that Reagan was transformative. He defined the playing field for the decades that have followed.Report
I think I need to make a pretty big clarification here. I’m not saying there’s no substantial difference between the parties. Nor am I saying that politics is completely unimportant, particularly in the long run. For that matter, I’m not even necessarily saying that the majority of uninformed voters really believe that there’s no difference.
I’m saying something much more nuanced: day-to-day life in stable democracies is, well, stable for most people. This is a good thing, and one that just about everyone implicitly accepts, much as we might complain about any number of things or say otherwise. There are far more aspects of life that we’re basically not debating than are subject to debate, and for the overwhelming majority of people, those aspects of life constitute the most personally significant portions of our lives.
And while trajectory surely matters in the long run: 1. no one actually knows for a fact what the effects of that trajectory will be, even though we all surely have our own strong opinions – there’s just too many variables at play; 2. the good thing about slow trajectories is that it’s usually possible to reverse them if it REALLY starts screwing with people’s lives; and 3. “in the long run, we’re all dead,” so making sure that there’s still going to be a relatively stable life tomorrow is going to take precedence for most of us over making sure that our long run trajectory is in line with our ideological preferences. In other words, while the stuff we debate matters, we’re not going to debate policies that will have comprehensive and far-reaching short-term effects on most of our lives.
Put it this way: I have a hard time thinking of a situation where a stable democracy would consider debating the rapid and complete abolition of private property.
Look at Hollande in France, who is a proud Socialist running against an unpopular center-right incumbent while his country teeters on the brink of recession. If ever there was a situation where a stable democracy would be open to a bout of truly radical proposals, it would be that. Yet the cornerstone of Hollande’s campaign is that he’d like to increase government spending by 1.5 to 2 percent of GDP and pay for this by repealing tax breaks that would result in less than 2 percent more tax revenue as a percentage of GDP. That, and he’d like banks to have to separate their retail and investment operations. In other words, he’s not looking to do anything that would completely transform the life of the average person.
Or, if you’d prefer, think about the average day for the average American: you get up, turn the TV on, maybe take the kids to school, go to work, go home, hang out with the wife and kids for a bit, eat dinner, hang out some more with the wife and kids, put the kids to bed, maybe watch the end of the ballgame, then go to bed. To do that, you make use of government-funded infrastructure that almost no one wants to get rid of, you go to a job made possible by something approaching a predictable rule of law that no one wants to completely upend, etc., etc.
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I don’t disagree with any of this. Yes, in stable democracies truly radical proposals are rare and therefore people can keep on keeping on with the most personally significant portions of their lives. In stable democracies change is mostly incremental.
I guess I’m urging caution for radical change that occurs incrementally and hoping for greater due diligence in our policy debates. Like in the metaphor where the frog boils to death in the pot where the heat is turned up very gradually, we have to be watchful of the long trajectory radical change if we are ever to course correct. We started on the course that leaves us currently with the FIRE sector wielding remarkable power to privatize power and socialize risk a long time ago.Report
True, but the reason it’s true is that the political system is already in equilibrium. If a large number of voters radically changed their minds about a policy issue I’d expect the major parties to change tack on that issue pretty quickly.Report
The most illuminating thing about a policy degree is just how little the debates you have with your colleagues have any bearing on the political debates held in public. Maybe that’s not a terrible thing, given the sometimes byzantine depths we dive into, but I’m not so sure a culture of experts is where we want to. There’s far too many cases of extreme failures from the Great Depression to Vietnam where policy experts got it absurdly wrong.Report
Having policy debates with my colleagues left a similar impression on me.
But the real question is, would regular people have done any better? I find that very difficult to believe.Report
What could get worse than absurdly wrong?Report
Things can always get worse. But mostly I think we’d get absurd wrongness at higher frequency.Report
We may have to agree to disagree on that. One thing I’ve learned about people who are paid to be ‘smart’ is that many of them also think they’re right. So the disputes, and the squabbles, and the likelihood of disaster if only those people were left in charge is just as likely.
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So Still, are you advocating a more populist approach? A kind of, “I don’t know much about how the healthcare system works, but I can tell a lot about a man by his firm handshake, so we’re gonna do this…” leadership?Report
I guess. Not quite sure. My point was more along the lines of Kissinger’s saying that academic disputes are so bitter because the stakes are so low. And to be clear, it’s not that I think that the stakes are low, but that smart people in an academic setting get hung up minor details which are more or less inconsequential to the over all purpose or result. Mole-hills become mountains. And that’s what I imagine James’ world of smart people determining policy looking like.Report
I think we’d see different kinds of disasters.
That is, experts tend to get the unknown unknowns wrong. Populism/anti-expertise tends to get the known knowns wrong.Report
That’s a good way of saying what I was also thinking. Experts would be disastrously *convinced* that Y would follow from X. Non-experts would be clueless about what X and Y even are. I think a nice equilibrium can be found in there somewhere.Report
In a comment that will surprise no one, I think the problems you are describing come not because people are experts but because they have a hard time letting go of their dogma.
Which is why, I would argue, Palin would be just as awful a choice to make public policy as the people you’re describing.Report
Or just as good a choice. Depending and all.
Good point!Report
In my experience the mere fact people don’t know about something doesn’t stop them having strong opinions about it.Report
See: Iraq.Report
The stronger their opinions, the less they know about the subject
I’d argue, along with Bertrand Russell: the fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.Report
Did Russell steal that from Yeats, or vice versa?Report
Experts would be disastrously *convinced* that Y would follow from X. Non-experts would be clueless about what X and Y even are. I think a nice equilibrium can be found in there somewhere.
Would non-experts therefore be more likely on average to get the answers right? Or would non-experts be able to avoid the most extreme policy blunders with any greater frequency? At the very least the current way of aggregating expert and non-expert opinions seems to skew heavily in favour of non-experts without adequately compensating for their inadequacies.Report
This isn’t about intelligence, it’s about expertise i.e. domain-relevant education and experience. Mere intelligence is like having a fast car and a bad map, you just get lost faster.
And on experts are right (on questions of their expertise) more often than non-experts. Sure, experts make mistakes, but beware of committing the Nirvana Fallacy. The question is not, are experts infallible, but who is more likely to cock up.Report
I think at least the Vietnam question seems to have been a problem of experts being too certain of their own assessments. Admittedly I don’t know if it was possible to come to a different conclusion. I remember an interesting run through where we formulated a policy solution based on what the principals knew at the time and the outcome wasn’t very different from history.Report
Oh joy! Another entry in the “False Equivalency” game.
I have zero respect for Goldberg. I find him mean, crass and useless. I have even less for his “cliches of the left” when EVERY argument from the right gets reduced to foolishness like “death panels” or “socialist”.
On the other hand, TVD is wrong about “better to let 10 guilty men go free…” — it doesn’t shut down argument, but allows us to say, but what about… Moreover, when you jail the innocent man, you let the guilty go free so you’ve defeated yourself.
Can you tell I’m really, really tired of this game?Report
+1
I waded through enough of Liberal Fascism to realize that Goldberg was just a step or two above Beck and Limbaugh in his attempt at “serious” political commentary. To me, he’s just another right-wing shill out to skewer the left and adding nothing to the quality of political debate in this country.Report
On the contrary, Goldberg’s “Liberal Fascism” thesis holds up quite well, mostly because it’s true. Today’s leftism has very authoritarian roots, and its goals not achievable without coercion.. Mussolini’s Fascist Italy was not seen as a bad thing at the time; that was to come later, with its alliance with Nazism [or at least the invasion of Ethiopia]. Fascism was not yet the dirty word that it is today.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/3682351/Hillary_Clinton_and_the_liberal_fascists/
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Oh, Tom. Here we go again.Report
A far better book about the phenomenon Goldberg labors to describe in Liberal Fascism is Friendly Fascism by Bertram Gross. It’s been a long time (probably more than 20 years) since I read the book but, from what I recall, it’s a pretty biting critique of the kind of growing corporate-government “partnership” that’s far more likely to lead to fascism with a smiley face than anything Hilary Clinton might devise.Report
I’m pretty sure though, is that book is filled with examples of actual proto-fascism, not college students and some environmentalists being idiotic.Report
The rhetoric of experimentation is the primary conservative rhetorical defense of federalism, I’d just point out.Report
Yeah, I’m pretty sure it would not take much to tie modern conservative buzzwords to fascism just as much, if not more so. Especially if I get to say that every word uttered in the last decade by a conservative politician or talk show host constitutes a “buzzword.”Report
Yeah, “10 innocents and one guilty man” made me think of this story: It’s almost a cliche at this point:
But in this case, there’s something additional: the actual murderer killed at least once more, which might have been prevented if the police and prosecutors had cared enough about not convicting the wrong guy.Report
“perfunctory” apology. Thrice-be-damned spell-checker.Report
The ethic, of course, is this. The actually guilty guy is going to commit another crime sooner or later, so he’ll wind up behind bars anyway no matter what anyone does. That frees up energy and resources to focus on the far more important objective of covering the asses of people in the justice system, so as to not diminish public confidence in its institutions.
Methinks most of the Founders, and John Adams in particular, would have some issues with this. But tell me why I’m wrong.Report
I’m confused, are you arguing for or against accidentally jailing innocents to make sure that actual criminals are caught?Report
Against. I’m pointing out the craven ethics that lead to the horror story Mike describes.Report
I believe Mike is using it as an example of why the “better to keep one innocent man free” thing is actually an important thing.Report
Which is why the immunity from prosecution of the police and District Attorneys needs to be removed.Report
3 and 5 are shorthand for entire argument sectors. (like “the living constitution” on the other side)
Socialist is still dogwhistling. Social Darwinism is basically saying “but you don’t CAAAARE” about the poor. But it’s at least saying that honestly.Report
What is “socialist” a dogwhistle for?Report
Calling the running dog?Report
Some time ago, one of my best friends and I were discussing the whole “terrorists hate our freedom” idea. As it happens, she one of those brown-skinned people of a different religion from a different part of the world. She said to me “I hate your freedom. Your freedom costs the rest of us an awful lot.”
It was rather an illuminating moment.Report
From what you say here, I suspect your friend and I were saying very similar things.Report
I wouldn’t much like if someone else exercised their “Freedom to occupy my homeland, kill my fellow citizens, and control my government” over me.Report
But Russell, doesn’t your friend understand that we have to fight them there so we don’t have to fight them here.
And, of course, freedom isn’t free.
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My favorite part of this is that number 3 is in direct contradiction to numbers 1 and 2. Government regulation is bad!!!!!!…. UNLESS it is used to regulate marriage in such a way as to exclude folks we think are icky OR it is used to keep us safe from the hordes of freedom hating terrorists just outside the gates.
WHOOPS!Report
But Tod, you haven’t made any caveats for the helpless sodomized kittenz! The Internet is just full of that sort of thing.
Liberalz are easily fooled. It’s like Hyp-mo-tizing a Chicken. Just gently push its beak against the ground and draw a straight line out from its beakie. In the same manner, push the Librul’s head down and tell him to Be Fair. See, Librulz are suckers for the word Fair. And Compromise. The Paradox of Zeno’s Chicken, no matter how much of a head start you give the Conservatives, they want a bigger head start so’z they can cross the finish line first.
Goldberg’s a ninny. The Conservatives managed to blow the world up with their Deregulatory Bullshit. Four thousand dead troops and untold Iraqi casualties in a war based on a pack of lies, wore out our military, blew up the deficits, elected and re-elected the stupidest man of his generation… and there they stand like a bunch of egg eating dogs — without even the dignity to whimper and grovel like the dogs would when they’ve been caught.Report
If Goldberg were truly interested in writing a book about political cliches and how they damage discourse, he would have delved into the sins of both sides. He might also have looked at how our current media culture encourages cliches, soundbites that can be easily disseminated without much thought and without having to delve into their actual veracity. He might have even sat and counted the number of cliches mouthed each week on both Fox News and MSNBC to show how both sides do it. And finally, he might have examined how relying so increasingly on cliches as opposed to any kind of genuine conversation allows both sides to talk past each other and avoid discussing the very real choices and issues that confront our country.
But, of course, that’s not what Goldberg set out to do. A serious book, as opposed to yet another left-bashing tome, likely wouldn’t sell nearly as well and would probably tax Goldberg’s limited intellectual capabilities to their limits.Report
Of course, Goldberg’s primary objective is to produce a salabale book so as to enrich himself.Report
…Not that there’s anything wrong with that, at least in the abstract.Report
Not at all. Telling people what they want to hear so well that they’ll pay for it is a very marketable skill, and far less harmful in a pundit than in, say, a national security adviser.Report
Of course, Goldberg’s primary objective is to produce a salabale book so as to enrich himself.
Exactly. Which is why it works well as a piece of political propaganda, but does little to address the roots of the actual problem he thinks he’s identified.Report
“If Goldberg were truly interested in writing a book about political cliches and how they damage discourse, he would have delved into the sins of both sides. ”
So you accept the truth of what Goldberg wrote, then?Report
Do I think liberals use political cliches? Of course, although not to the degree nor with the same amount of success that the right has done over the last couple of decades. Moreover, pretending that liberals are the ones who are cheating in the “war of ideas” is nonsense as it infers that conservatives either play fairly or have actually come up with some new ideas since Reagan.Report
Well, the very title of Tod’s post nails one unassailable difference: the unimaginative left’s egregious and execrable overuse of—addiction to!— ultrahyperbolic pejoratives, demonizations, slanders, psychological projection, and even outright hallucinations.
It’s become such a rhetorical banality that mocking it is an established literary form, like haiku or the knock-knock joke. Come to think of it…
Knock Knock, who is there
A conservative, Romney?
Quick, check on grandma
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Yes, it’d be horrible if the right wing hallucinated such crazy things like claiming a President’s wife killed a guy, is a secret Muslim, had ghostwriters write his best-selling book, or wasn’t actually born in America. I mean, it’d be just horrible if polls showed that large segments of the Republican electorate still believe things that was demonstrably false.Report
More cliches, sir. Busted again.
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Multiple polls of self-professed Republican primary voters showed that large members of the right-wing showed demonstrably false things, such as Barack Obama being Muslim or born somewhere other than Hawaii. But somehow, in Tom’s world, that’s not as bad as whatever thing us evil liberals did this week.Report
second “showed” should be believed.Report
Jonah Goldberg scores
The leftperson howls, reaching
For his tu quoque
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Huh…. This one doesn’t really seem to have the word “penis” in it. I’m not sure where you’re going with it.Report
well quoque sounds a bit like ahem cockReport
No, Mr. Murali, as a point of order—no, it don’t.Report
Yeah, you’re supposed to use banalities, not cliches. Read the instructions again.Report
I love haikus.
Could be a good thread.
But all Tod gets are dick jokes.
The dog whistles sing.
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I’m printing this out and taping it on the white board on my office.Report
“Do I think liberals use political cliches? Of course, although not to the degree nor with the same amount of success that the right has done over the last couple of decades.”
I’ve heard this argument plenty of times regarding all criticisms against the Left — Yes, but the Right is more narrow-minded — Yes, but the Right is more judgemental — Yes, but the Right does it more often — Yes, but the Right is more miltaristic. What I haven’t seen though are the measurements that give certain weights or quantities of badness so that we know how much worse the Right is. If the Right is like a tad worse, then that makes the two sides about equally bad. Is there some entity that keeps these measurements? Like, for instance, how many more cliches does the Right use in comparison to the Left? Is it 2 to 1, 3 to 1? Is there any area of moral, intellectual or political concern which improves the quality of life where the Right can be said to excel over the Left, or is the Left superior to the Right in all such matters? I’m just wondering, because if the Left is really that superior to the Right, then perhaps we should all just follow the Left and forget about the Right. I’m ready to let the Left show the way. The only problem is that no one can say what the Left really is. Are liberals considered Left? Are progressives and liberals the same. Are liberals the same, or are ther different forms of liberality. Do any label really do justice to those who are not-Right?Report
You do it more!
No, you do it more!
No you!
No you times ten!
No you times infinity!
No you times infinity squared!
No you times infinity to the infinity power!Report
MFarmer–My point was that Goldberg is being disingenuous in pretending that only the left is using cliches to “cheat” at the war on ideas. Puh-leeze. Does anybody actually believe that? Where’s the left’s equivalent to Fox News? And don’t tell me MSNBC because it lacks both the viewership and the direct connection to the Democratic Party that Fox has to the Republican party.
My other point is that cliches and banalities are about all you get in politics these days because of the type of culture our mainstream media engenders–where you put up a Talking Head from Side L against a Talking Head from Side C and have them battle it out, as if there were ever only two sides to any issue. Ideas have nuance and substance–cliches don’t.Report
I’m not sure if this is helpful or not mike but here’s a recent article from right wingers in the right wing Washington Post no less pointing out that in the past several years the right/GOP has been doing it a heck of a lot more. Mind you they’re probably statists but I don’t think they’re liberals so maybe there’s some value to it for ya.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/lets-just-say-it-the-republicans-are-the-problem/2012/04/27/gIQAxCVUlT_story.htmlReport
Just a little self-advertisement here, but one of my most famous tweets of all time was:
“When @mattyglesias calls @jonahnro stupid and @jonahnro calls @mattyglesias a prick, the only winner is the truth.”Report
A+, sir [on form alone].Report
Thinking Simply Saying the Acronym “PC” Out Loud Is An Actual Argument
To be fair, this is very often a response to the use of the words “racism,” “sexism,” and/or “offensive” as stand-alone arguments.Report
I’d love to talk about evidence and rational arguments in politics…ohhhhhh lets say we start with health care. I hear there are actually many examples of countries providing universal health care. Almost every one those has good results and those places don’t use ideas conservatives like.
Thus endith the rational evidence based discussion.
Goldberg is a hack. He tries to sound reasonable enough to get serious people to take him seriously but is just chumming the water for right wing causes and to get book sales .
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Even Singapore, home of our good friend Murali, which uses about as right-wing a model as you could use to get to universal health care, doesn’t really get brought into the discussion (except on some blogs). This is part of why I’m so exasperated with conservatives and the Republican Party in particular: they just obviously don’t give a damn about policy.
Also, seriously, Goldberg Godwinned himself for the space of an entire book. Why are we still talking about him?Report
Amen.Report
I can only speak for myself, by writing the title was enough of a reason for me.Report
I’m still jealous that you were the one who came up with it.
Damn you, Tod Kelly! Damn you!Report
I would nominate “Liberal Media Bias” . Especially when a Fox News talking head is saying it.Report
Serious ruminations on your five Republican memes with as little, er, few mentions of penes as possible:
1. Gay People Marrying Destroys the Sanctity of My Own Marriage: …Also, it’s often championed by public figures that are divorced or caught in scandals outside their marriage bed; the lack of concern about this among its supporters has always seemed a tell-tale sign of its inherent lack of seriousness.
I don’t know what things are like on the ground in the rest of the country, but this honestly feels like it’s deflating from where I sit.
You mention the public figures and I think that that has had a huge effect on the debate. Remember the famous quip about asking which of Gingrich’s three marriages did he consider the most sacred. I mean, that’s an uppercut. Additionally, the scandals of a non-zero amount of mega-church leaders getting caught with male prostitutes hasn’t helped either.
A million years ago, we had this thread here.
A comment I wrote then (we were so young!) made distinctions between Marriage In The Eyes Of God (MEG) and Marriage In The Eyes Of The State (MES). It concluded:
“…We may have the power to prevent gay folks from having a MES… but it always struck me that given the nature of a MES… you know, the manilla folder stuff…, it would eventually get really depressing to deny inheritance rights to gay folks. To deny hospital visitations. That sort of thing. These guys who do stuff like discuss which kind of hamburger helper they ought to get, who discuss their days, who discuss the kitten, who discuss the sock monkey vs. floppy teddy bear issue…
To deny them a manila folder struck me as something that would eventually become really, really depressing and something that people who claim knowledge of the Mind of God would eventually sicken of.
I don’t understand it.”
I get the feeling that folks on the fence are getting sick of what they’re doing in practice in the name of what they want to do in theory.
All that to say, I see this one withering on the vine.
2. Terrorists Attack Us Because They Hate Our Freedom:
This one made a lot more sense in the days of the Second Intifada and the days following 9/11. Why? Prior to that, the stuff I remember were the arguments over such things as Christian censorship in response to Ofili and Seranno and Kazantzakis and the almost complete change in tone when it came to The Satanic Verses. “They hate us for our freedom” is shorthand for something. I think it indicates a vocabulary problem more than anything else. There are reasons that we are hated and some of them do have to do with how much license we’re willing to take with The Sacred. While it’s easy to point at such things as our support for Israel in the face of the oppression of the poor Palestinians, we also have to point at such things as “the Buddhas of Bamiyan”.
There are many reasons we are hated. “Freedom” is a poor word choice… but it’s not so far out there that we can’t even tell what the person who is saying it is talking about.
(I suppose I should also mention that Osama bin Laden printed an open letter to the US about a month after September 11th, 2001. He mentions a great many things about his motivations for the attacks. The fact that we are sinners was waaaaay up there. That’s got some overlap with “freedom”.)
3. Government Regulation is Bad:
When I use this one, I use the variant that says”captured” (and, where it’s not captured, it’s something akin to either Prohibition or Stand Your Ground Laws… laws that, in practice, don’t accomplish what we think they ought to accomplish).
4. “Socialist:” This term doesn’t mean what it used to, I tell you what. When I was going to school, there were still communists around who argued for such things as it being right and proper for command economies to punish people who wanted to buy stuff on the black market in, if not the same breath, the same discussion that they railed against the War on Drugs.
5. Government Can’t Do Anything Right: Oh, I don’t use this one. I tend to focus on the things it does well. Protecting prosecutors from malfeasance, protecting policemen who shoot teenagers in the face with pepper spray, protecting TSA agents from charges of sexual harassment, killing dogs, colluding with corporations… there’s a lot of stuff that government excels at.Report
“All that to say, I see this one withering on the vine.”
Agreed. I believe that in 30 years, 70% of those who are now against SSM will be telling their children they were for it all along.
‘There are many reasons we are hated. “Freedom” is a poor word choice… but it’s not so far out there that we can’t even tell what the person who is saying it is talking about.”
Maybe. But I still remember having actual discussions in the time right after 9/11 with guys who asked, in all sincerity, why some Dems (specifically those that were unsure about Iraq) wanted the terrorists to win. And regardless of what people thought, I have a very clear memory the reinforcement that “because of freedom” was patriotic and “because of what we might have done abroad” was unpatriotic.
This term doesn’t mean what it used to, I tell you what. When I was going to school, there were still communists around who argued for such things as it being right and proper for command economies to punish people who wanted to buy stuff on the black market in, if not the same breath, the same discussion that they railed against the War on Drugs.
Mega-dittoes!Report
The government also managed to pretty much destroy endemic severe elderly poverty along with creating a whole new class of consumer for the private sector via the creation of Social Security. But yeah, other than that, ya’ know, they can’t do anything right. Sell the whole thing of to AT&T and Wal-Mart. I mean, they’re much better at running things.Report
Kathryn Johnston wants for nothing!Report
Yes, I totally get the connected between local law enforcement assholes being assholes and the most successful anti-poverty program in the history of the republic. By the way, every time libertarians rightfully get upset about local LEO’s going off on power trips, they undermine the whole, “hey, if we just leave decisions to local lawmakers, we’ll be in much better shape!” argument. The only difference between local politicians and national politicians is that local politicians are cheaper to buy off and no one pays attention to them.Report
Local lawmakers are not, however, capable of invading Iraq and Afghanistan.
Something that the federal government also excels at.
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Right. They can just go to war against each other, like almost happened multiple times under the Articles of Confederation.
That still ignores the fact that the federal government does lots of good things very well, no matter how much you go, “look over there, it’s a unicorn” to try to cause a distraction.Report
I didn’t cause a distraction, Jesse. I specifically said that I didn’t use a particular argument or criticism and then you started arguing against me as if I had.
I’ll say again: Oh, I don’t use this one. I tend to focus on the things it does well.Report
…and then listed negative things to most people on this site. Which I agree, is a nice little parlor trick. But, it’s still just filled with as little as substance as Goldberg’s rant.
Which is of course why libertarians will always be off in their own little corner. Because when somebody, from the right or left comes over and says, “ya’ know, we agree with you on issue x, but you at least got to believe that thing y is a good thing, right?”, a libertarian says something like, well, you did.Report
Then take great comfort that, at least, you aren’t on the same side as the libertarians.
(The government does an *EXCELLENT* job of that as well.)Report
Actually, I’m with you on a lot of things. But yes, I’m perfectly happy being on the side of people who think Social Security has been an unqualified good that has been run well by the government. Ya’ see, I just don’t think we should burn the house down because the kitchens on fire.Report
The kitchen is on fire, though. There are a lot of people that it will hurt before it gets to us, though. We won’t see it for a while.Report
Great, we’ll help you put out the fire in the kitchen. Then kick you in the balls when you try to knock down the walls in the living room because you think a private company can rebuild it better. 🙂Report
“I’m hoping this is just him tossing a little complimentary anti-college red meat to the Red State crowd, because otherwise it’s a little sad.”
That seems pretty sad on its own.Report
nazis were facist national socialists who belong on the left because the word socialist is in their self description.
china is the people’s republic of china so republicans are all chinese because they share the word “republic”.
i doez this right? i can haz book deal?
but what if my parents were members of the DC village royalty?Report
i doez this right? i can haz book deal?
You really need a picture of a cat to go with this.Report
Is, “If you buy foreign, an American loses his job!” right wing or left wing? Because that one’s annoying as hell.Report
Depends on who’s in office, I think.Report
Especially when half that foreign shit is built in Honda or Toyota plants in the US.
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The odd thing is, in New Zealand that line of reasoning is pretty much exclusively left wing.Report