How do we learn?
In a previous post, If you happen to be in Uruguay next month…, I announced that three of my films are being shown this September at the Sala Cinemateca Festival. In announcing this I made good on a promise to myself to no longer actively promote the work to which I devoted the better part of 15 years, but also to not let any easy opportunities to call attention to it go unanswered.
I also (wryly? bitterly?) made mention that two of my films will soon go out of print as DVDs and without access to a mainstream venue like Apples iTunes store, they will no longer be available to the public, and that this will be the fate of the entire body of work. Retrospectives like the one Sala Cinematica is presenting will, in time, be the only (legal) way that new audiences will see these films. A fitting end to Tony Comstock’s career, I think.
The post elicited exactly one comment, from Glyph, which is quoted in its entirety below the cut.
Hi David, I watched the linked preview clip, and another one that YouTube popped up automatically after this one ended.
As I watched them speak, I found myself sort of…embarrassed I guess is the word? Maybe this is partly due to some sort of residual American Judeo-Christian shame about sex, but I don’t think it was (I am really no prude, I am OK with whatever makes any consenting adults’ socks roll up & down).
I think it was rather a sort of embarrassment at witnessing others’ intimacy…like I was hearing these people’s secrets and I was never meant to. I am a pretty mind-yr-own-business-anti-TMI kinda guy; the private should usually be private, etc. So it felt uncomfortably like I was ‘eavesdropping’. (I know it’s not remotely the same thing at all, but I avoid a lot of so-called ‘reality TV’ for the same reason – Not My Business).
I know from the previews and the other things you have written about your film work that exploitation, voyeurism and cheap titillation are the farthest things from your mind – that your intent is to depict, in an artful way, real people sharing the sort of beautiful intimacy, communication and joy together that all human beings should be so lucky as to experience, as often as possible, in their lifetimes (and that in reality is probably so common as to be nearly unremarkable, if we didn’t have such taboos against depicting it publicly).
I guess what I am asking is, is my initial emotional reaction as a viewer (let’s call it ‘Intimacy Shame’ rather than ‘Sex Shame’) a common one in your experience? And, if it is, in your experience do those feelings persist throughout a complete viewing of the work? Of course, even if I remain uncomfortable throughout and after, I know that does not diminish the work in any way, and depending on why it makes me uncomfortable and what I ultimately get out of that discomfort, it may enhance the work’s value to me.
I guess what I am saying is, I am intellectually very intrigued by the project, but not sure if I am emotionally ready. 😉
Plus, as I have said, I find the concept behind the work laudable and fascinating, and I admire your bullheaded attempts to make the world listen on this front. And since nobody else had yet commented on this post (who’d’a thunk that sex sells everywhere but at the LoOG?), I wanted you to know that.
This is a thoughtful, emotionally honest comment, and in responding to it the first thing I’d like to do is simply to thank Glyph for taking the time to write it, and having the courage to post it. Laying yourself bare before the world, even pseudonymously, is no small thing.
Secondly, if my irritation of where my work stands in relation to copyright minimalism and the algorithmic parsing of culture is the primary source of my frustration about the work has been received, the failure of the films to gain traction and provoke serious critical discussion of the issues and emotions they raise is a close second.
In short, in comparison to films like DESTRICTED, 9 Songs, Shortbus, or Anti Christ, I don’t think the work got a fair shake. And because of that, and because I’ve promised not to let an easy opportuity go by (even if that opportunity comes on the wings of an pseudonymous commentor on an independent blog) I’d like to respond (as best I can) to the questions and concerns Glyph’s comment raises.
To start with, I’d like to quote from a letter I wrote to the Australian Office of Film and Literature Classification. What occasioned my writing the OFLC was their threat to fine and/or jail the director and/or board members of the Sydney International Film Festival if they went ahead with their plans to screen DAMON AND HUNTER: DOING IT TOGETHER as a part of their 2006 queerDOC film festival:
I have been a photographer my entire adult life. In the name of bearing witness to the human condition I’ve documented unspeakable suffering, violence, and death; and for that I’ve been praised as a courageous witness. When I review the scope of people, places and events that have passed before my lens, I am unable to comprehend the censor’s rational for “protecting” adults from photographic images of sexuality. Adults have the capacity and the right to choose for themselves what sort of images they wish to see. They do not need to be protected from images of sex, and least of all from a film like DAMON AND HUNTER. In the face of horrific images we are exposed to each and every day, the OFLC decision is not only unfair, it is perverse.
The letter failed to have any effect, and two episodes of a gay-themed British sit-com were substituted for the already sold out screenings of DAMON AND HUNTER.
Since that time my views on the cultural placement of explicit sexuality in film have become more nuanced. The question “Why is it okay to show someone getting their head chopped off*, but it’s not okay to show a woman’s bare breast?” is usually inflected rhetorically. But from 2008 through 2011 I spent a lot of time read, thinking and writing on that question as one that deserved serious consideration.
To answer Glyph’s first question, “Is my reaction a common one?” the answer is yes. We’ve had excoriating 1-star Amazon reviews that were clearly provoked by the viewers’ discomfort, not with the sexually explicit footage, but with the emotional candor. More than once we’ve had (women) declaim they were enthusiastic consumers of pornography, but found they were not comfortable watching one or another of our films because it felt too intimate.
The question as to whether or not this discomfort would persist is a difficult one. Currently my own position is that sex is about the most personal and contextual of human activities. I have a close friend, someone I admire, someone who has expressed admiration for the films similar to Glyph’s, who also classes his feelings about the films as “not ready”. I have another friend, who’s offered similar praise, who says simply, “I”m glad these films exist. I laud your courage for making them. I know they’re not for me.”**
In 2006 I might have dismissed these views as prudery, or closed-mindedness, or simply fearfulness.
I don’t feel that way now. I now accept that that sex is intensely personal and contextual, that a person can have comforts and discomforts around sexual intimacy that are very different from my own without it being an indication that they are less evolved, thoughtful, open-minded, or capable of loving and being loved.
Bill and Desiree feel that way too, which is a big part of why I wanted to make a movie with them.
*In fact, a promotional documentary I produced for a religious organization contained footage of a murder by beheading during the Rwandan genocide.
** In 2002, another friend said nearly the exact same thing about the film I made about 9/11.
Is there a Tony Comstock boxed set?Report
Yes! If you go to shop.comstockfilms.com and buy all seven of the films, we’ll ship them to you in a box!Report
Hey David, I never even thought to check Amazon.
I know you probably get a better cut if I buy directly from your site, but I have some Amazon credit burning a hole in my pocket, and I am poor. 🙁
If you had to choose, which one of the films is your favorite (like children, this question is probably hard to answer); or barring that, which one is the one you think is most accessible to a fairly average middle-aged hetero dude (albeit one who, without telling tales out of school, is maybe, like most of us, not *quite* as ‘vanilla’ as he might appear on the surface)?Report
I must say that I reacted rather badly to the photograph used to intro this post, David, and it seems incongruous with the nuanced position you describe at the end of your essay.Report
Indeed.Report
Hey Burt, can you clarify?
Were you upset by the picture itself (by the horror of what that image depicts, or by a seeming disrespect for those persons depicted, by using that image in service of another point)?
Or maybe you feel that any person posting such a picture is acting ‘aggressively’ or rudely, by showing you something you mayn’t wish to see, and not taking your possible discomfort into account?
A little of column A, a little of Column B?
Just curious.Report
My answer, infra: about equal portions of A, B, and C.Report
Yah. I think if it were designed to shock us into action, to help stop a genocide, it would be proper. Otherwise it hit me as, I dunno, using human suffering to sell soap, I guess. Sorry, David, I’m w/Burt here and frankly I don’t even think it should require an explanation.Report
I can see that POV.
If David were not the ‘soap-seller’ but was not responsible for either ‘image’ (it’s my understanding he is responsible for both, or at least images like the one at top) would that be different?
I took it as an attempt to make a point, not to advertise the ‘soap’. Obviously David has skin in the game (no pun intended) as both a photographer and as the works’ creator, so that may make it look different to observers, but that’s to be expected (if he didn’t have skin in the game, he probably wouldn’t feel so passionately).
Also, if an image intended to shock us into stopping genocide can be good, an image intended to shock us into treating one another more lovingly (like the Comstock films) can presumably also be good.
I don’t necessarily feel a line of propriety has been crossed (or if it has, it was so done in service of a valid point).Report
This is a link to The Atlantic’s “In Focus” photography section, specifically a segment on the Holocaust that ran as a part of a larger feature on WWII.
http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2011/10/world-war-ii-the-holocaust/100170/
If you look at the In Focus coverage of contemporary events, they will often employ a click-through black screw for especially gory imagery. Once or twice I have also seen this employed for nudity.
Interestingly, the Atlantic editors chose not to use the black click-through screen on this post, even though some of the imagery is as ghastly and appalling as anything I’ve ever beheld.
Passage of time? Historical gravity? Black and White photos? I don’t know. I do recall a conversation I had with Tony Hey of the MPAA about both their rationale and anxiety over granting Saving Private Ryan an R instead of an NC-17.
In the end, their decision proved to be the correct one. How do they know? Because they didn’t receive a single complaint.Report
Something labeled “Holocaust,” you know what you’re going to see. And I agree, there’s something about the passage of time and familiarity with what the Holocaust looks like. And the B&W lends an unreality to it, or at least a softening of the shock.
As for your main point, I get it, bro. Dirty Lenny.
“OK, what is dirty? And what is clean?
Now, if l had to make a choice, man,
l would rather my kid watches
a stag movie than a clean movie,
like King of Kings.
Why? Because King of Kings
is full of killing,
and l don’t want my kid to kill Christ
when he comes back.
That’s what happens in that.
Tell me about a stag movie where
anybody gets punched or killed.
lf you’re lucky, you might
see someone get tied up
or tapped lightly with a Hickok belt,
but for the most part, all you really
see during that hour and a half, man,
is a lot of hugging and kissing…
and moaning and groaning…
Oh, God.
And then,
near the end of the movie, when that one potential instrument
of death is revealed…
– The pillow.
The guy might smother the chick,
like in a horror flick.
He takes that pillow and gently
slides it under the girl’s ass.
And they go off,
and nobody gets hurt or killed.
And it’s nice.
And that’s the end of the movie.”Report
No, Tom. I’m pretty sure you don’t get my point. But I hold out hope for you.
Pursue http://withoutsanctuary.org/
Again, try not to get to focused on the victims of the violence and let your eyes scan the entirety of the photographs. Note the environment; note the posture and affect of the onlookers.Report
Yeah, I got that point the first time you said it, David. My reservation is not with the photo itself.Report
Burt, Tom,
I would invite you to scroll back to the top and observe, not the decapitated heads in the foreground, but the postures and affect of the observers in the background, and then consider what you observe in relation to Bill’s observation about sex and privacy.Report
David, I’m very open about “Only Connect.” However, here I can see only horror, not context. I get your point but after a sledgehammer in the face, you can’t appreciate being tickled.Report
Thorny questions, no? What to put in? What to leave out? Which connections to make explicit, and which to leave to the audience? What should be framed rigidly, and what should be allowed to float?
No one size fits all answer…Report
I agree that part of the horror of the picture is indeed the seeming casual attitude of the observers. And part is the apparent bloat of the flesh of the heads, suggesting that they’ve been sitting there for a little while. And part of it is realizing that this picture is real, not special effects from a movie, which brings with it the understanding that actual people went through the experience of being decapitated — and other actual people did the decapitating.
It’s shocking. Horrifying. Gross. And it’s in a big picture across the entire column, the first thing anyone sees when they switch to the blog.
Is there a place for such pictures? Most certainly yes. TVD alludes to the idea that a depiction of graphic violence is frequently and appropriately part of a plea for peace and for activism towards peace. That, however, was not the plea made in the OP. Nor did I ready some other sort of journalism, activism, or advocacy into the OP — it flirts with free speech as an isue but it’s really about audience appetite for particular kinds of uncomfortable subject matter.
I know that David’s movies are going to be emotionally intense and intimate; David acknowledges in the OP that the intimacy of his movies are difficult for some to handle, even setting aside that they contain segments which are sexually explicit. Before I click “play” on the YouTube segment, or before I put the DVD into my player, I know more or less what I’m getting into. The OP further acknowledges that not everyone would want to view them, and that’s okay, and it asks the rhetorical question of why a depiction of gore and violence should be more acceptable than a depiction of sex and love (obviously, it not).
So it seems like David decided for me that I would be okay with seeing severed human heads first thing when I went to the front page of the blog. First, I got shocked/horrified/grossed out by something I had no idea I was going to be confronted with. Then I got told that David had grown to a point that he could respect my autonomy about what sort of material I would choose to consume. The emotional impact of the first communication rendered the second communication hollow.
So to answer Glyph’s questions above, yes, it’s a little “A” and a little “B” but it’s also a little “C,” which is the cognitive dissonance between the phrasing of the post and the graphic content of the above-the-fold picture.Report
A while back I got into a heated exchange with the program director of the IFC channel about the airing of the film The Bridge.
The exchange was precipitated by a woman who had encountered one of the films more graphic segments while channel surfing and was upset by what she had seen. This struck a cord with me because my own sister was nearly struck by a jumper from a building, and has since (though less as the years have gone by) had a strong reaction to people near the edges of precipices.
At the time IFC was using the tagline “Uncut, Unedited, Uncensored” and my point of attack with their programing director was that in fact, IFC knew full well that there would be no consequences for airing footage of people jumping to their death, but was positively self-censorious around sexual imagery.
No one’s mind was changed, or position soften in the ensuing fracas.
—
To my mind, the ‘op’ is not about about people appetites for uncomfortable subject matter. It is an invitation to contemplate with me the place, the actual physical place and context in which violence occurs verse the place and context in which sex occurs; and then to ask if that helps to explain Glyph’s discomfit with even the clothed, spoken segments of my films, and the place of sexual imagery in media verses violent imagery in media.Report
My temptation is to sarcastically suggest that I’m sure these people are glad they could die a horrible death, and let their bodies rot on the ground, so that David could make a point.
I agree that we have an odd, and on the surface, inexplicable disparity between our reactions to violence and our reaction to sex, or even the suggestion of sex. There are empirical questions here that can be addressed with social and behavioral science, and explored with art and literature. And maybe David is exploring the sexual end with his art, but he doesn’t seem to be either trying to understand the issue empirically or exploring it with art here. This feels more like the combination of a plug and a personal beef, with a baldly manipulative rhetorical stunt.
Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe I can’t see past the heads on the grounds. I know that I, personally, have no problem with sex in pretty much any context, but I have a very hard time watching even fictional graphic violence (there are parts of Saving Private Ryan that I can’t watch). So again, maybe I just can’t see past the heads. But that’s what I got from it, and nothing David’s said here in the comments has convinced me otherwise.Report
The discussion question arises, what are the essential differences between that photo and a depiction of Judith which also has been a featured item at the League? (though on a sub-blog)Report
This is important, and why I chose an image of actual violence, rather than making the (wildly off-base in my estimation) comparison of “Hollywood violence” to photographic depictions of actual nudity and sex.Report
Maybe a painting, like drawing or text, is at a remove/ ‘abstracted’ enough from the actual event depicted, so that the remove or abstraction serves as a ‘figleaf’, mitigating the viewer’s shame (or complicity?)
Though I dunno, sometimes the reaction to pornographic cartoons seems more strong than it is to actual photos (though this may be due to the common association of the idea of ‘cartoon’ with the idea of ‘children’).
I have no idea where or why we each draw the lines we do.Report
What’s interesting to me is how variable that line is from person to person, and how strong the reaction (positive or negative) can be when that line is breached.
And what you’re calling shame I suspect is more a feeling of uncertainty about what the appropriate reaction should be, and fear of opprobrium if we guess wrong. Images of graphic violence, no matter how appalling are not nearly so complex in either interpretation or consequence.Report
I have a very abnormal line placement.Report
Do tell?Report
For the first part in a long amount of context, read this post. Talking about the war is not something that my grandfather did. So after growing up watching all of the Hollywoodized versions of the war, I looked up documentaries and old footage and when the Internet came out I found other stuff that you couldn’t find, earlier.
Because I wanted to know. Watch several dozen hours worth of horrific war footage and it puts down… a foundation. I didn’t find the picture for this post terribly horrific, in the grand scheme of “shitty things people do to each other”. It’s horrific, all right. People are doing equally bad things to larger numbers of people right now, somewhere.
I’ve never been particularly freaked out by death (I don’t fetishize it either), or sex. I knew a few people in college who were pretty frank and open about all sorts of odd sex stuff and were interested in talking to people about it, not because they were necessarily exhibitionist, but because they just thought it was weird that people didn’t talk about this sort of stuff.
I’m a conversational junkie, so when people start talking about stuff that people don’t normally talk about, I listen.
That said, I don’t think it’s an unusual reaction for many or most people to have a really adverse reaction to the violence. Sex is a little weird, but violence… violence is deep down under the seal of the animal part of your brain that most people don’t want to admit is down there.Report
Hey Patrick, glad I asked, that piece about yr grandfather was wonderful. Thanks.Report
Patrick,
I had missed the post about your grandfather. It’s wonderful. I’ll add these small bits.
A few years back there was a release of WWII combat footage that had been under 50 year embargo, and there was a spate of documentaries based on the footage. I found these documentaries compelling for two reasons:
First, the footage was horrific in ways I had never associated with WWII, and much of it was so gruesome that I was genuinely shocked to see it on televsion. Growing up I saw so much WWII imagery, but it had never occurred to me how sanitized it was, that WWII was every bit gruesome as any other war, but between wealth of “safe” images that had been packed into my head from my earliest years and its characterization as “the Good War” I somehow had failed to apprehend it was as horrible as any other war.
Cutting against the savagery of the footage was the fact that the men interviewed, giving first person testimony to their experience, were now old men. They were circumspect, wry, haunted.
A few days after seeing a particularly hard-to-watch doc about the Pacific Theater, we were at dinner with my uncle and his parter, who won the the Silver Star when he served in as a Marine Corps NCO in Viet Nam.
I told him how stupid I felt to have been surprised by the documentary, that I felt as if 40 years of mythology about WWII had suddenly been dispelled, like morning myst under the hard sunlight of reality. To his credit he did not condescend.
A few weeks later I was at our mechanics, where I learned he had just buried his uncle. At his uncle’s funeral he learn that his uncle had been at nearly every major battle in the European Theater. Italy, Normandy, The Battle of the Bulge. 50 years and his uncle had never breathed a word of it to him.Report
this has been a great thread, and this comment especially soReport
Burt,
You may not believe this, but I didn’t even look closely at the picture or realize what its contents were until I read your comment. That probably says something unflattering about my powers of observation, but now that I’ve really looked at the picture, I agree with you.Report
I like to think I’m smart enough to understand your point, David. And it reminds me of the George Carlin bit where he replaces the word kill with the word f**k in all those movie cliches: “Alright, Sheriff. We’re gonna f**k you now, but we’re gonna f**k ya slow.” And I think about some of the folks here in Utah (and I’m not sure if it’s mainly a Mormon thing or a religious thing or just a human thing) who will tell you how offended they were at the gratuitous use of the f-word throughout a movie that was littered with violence and carnage and all sorts of horrors. But they semingly don’t object to the violence.
And then I think of your dealing with Australian OFLC and how they seem to be of the same mindset about your films about sex and intimacy.Report
I think there’s fertile ground that lies beyond dismissing your example as mere hypocrisy.Report
Have you looked at Daily Motion? They allow explicit content, as well as charging for views, so that might be a way to “save” the videos and make some money. Since the pay-per-views allow a preview, I could see if I like the style before spending any bucks on it.
Just a thought…Report
I’ve seen people chopped up into little pieces, starting out as terrified, screaming people and ending up in chunks. I’ve watched people burned to death. I don’t propose to make films of either subject. I’m not particularly offended by pictures of heads rolling around. It’s reality.
But if I did, I wouldn’t expect people looking through the entertainment section of the newspaper to call out to the kitchen “Hey, honey, there’s this picture down at the art house about Rwandan genocide. Want to go see it?”
People didn’t want to talk about Biafra when it happened. The world watched in apathy as the Rwandan genocide went on. Europe sat there with one thumb in its mouth and the other in its ass, periodically switching the thumbs out as the veneer peeled up on the Balkans. Had America done nothing, there would still be a few Croats and a few Serbs running around in those hills, still murdering each other, while the Europeans sat around conference tables, doing nothing.
David, you’re doing important work. But there’s a trade-off, as I’m sure I don’t have to tell you. Want to put asses in chairs? Show ’em some tit and dub a violin quartet onto the soundtrack. Do not show them the reality. People don’t want reality. They want illusion. They’re hobbits, David. The world beyond their doorstep is viewed with suspicion. Forces beyond their comprehension are at work. They go back to their bedrooms and make love in the dark with no more sincerity than making breakfast and coffee in the morning.
Don’t expect serious critics to pay attention to this stuff. Critics piss ink. They’re incapable of addressing the reality of fucking or beheading, though it happens all around them. You expect too much of them.
Go, said the bird, for the leaves were full of children,
Hidden excitedly, containing laughter.
Go, go, go, said the bird: human kind
Cannot bear very much reality.Report
I do appreciate you kind words for my work, but in a way, you’re making my point from another angle.
Simply calling people “hobits” and invoking the horrors one has witnessed is a little like telling someone they’re a prude about sex and if they don’t like it, they should just change the channel.
Many, many people have pointed out a (seemingly) double standard for the treatment of sex and violence in film. What I haven’t seen done, at least not to my satisfaction, is a real exploration of why this different standard persists. Even in countries that have more relaxed attitudes about depictions of nudity, explicit sexuality is a line that is rarely crossed in legitimate media. Depictions of violence, both fictional and drawn from real life are common.Report
But it’s not a “depiction,” it IS sex. The analogy with real violence breaks down: we don’t stage real violence so we can film it.
[As a related aside, in this age of PETA and Michael Vick, I wonder if
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondo_cane
wouldn’t be even more controversial today.]Report
Tom gets it right.Report
Football, boxing, mixed martial arts; human history is replete with violent, even deadly spectacles stages explicitly for the pleasure of onlookers.Report
We draw the line at decapitation.Report
This isn’t the thread, but I have a bit of a problem with boxing, it being the sport where the head isn’t off-limits.Report
There may be some truth to this, but I don’t think it’s the whole story. We have pretty much the same dynamic with animation — violence is fine up to a certain point, but sex is always transgressive.Report
KenB, I speculated above that the strong reaction that sex in animation or cartoons sometimes gets in our culture, may be due to the cultural assumption that cartoons are inherently for kids.Report
Perhaps you’ve misunderstood the point I’m making. We agree this stuff is horrible. The Killing Fields didn’t get bashed at the box office because it wasn’t a snuff film. Hotel Rwanda, same story. It’s not real violence. No animals or people were harmed in the making of this film, etc.
But you’re depicting an actual sex act. Granted, it’s an act of love and it’s simulated in films all the time. But don’t you see? It’s not so much prudishness which pushes people away, it’s the reality of it. People will tolerate actors gouging their eyes out in Oedipus, murders, all manner of horrible things — insofar as they aren’t real. Real death is a snuff film.
Curiously, this isn’t true of sex, porn isn’t real sex. It’s more akin to a circus act in porn. As seldom as legit media presents actual sex, porn seldom portrays actual lovemaking. Even silly people’s sex tapes conform to the circus act, performing seals, one almost expect to hear them bark like seals, with some dubbed-in clapping at the money shot.
People aren’t prudes. They’re fascinated by sex, especially Americans, who seem utterly obsessed by porn. But they want sex to be a fantasy: the reality disturbs them greatly.
There’s a porn site I once encountered, AbbyWinters.com. Real girls. Not dolled-up hookers in high heels with their dead eyes staring back into the camera, faking lust: this is just ordinary Australian girls getting out of their clothes. Charming stuff, often quite compelling. Nothing faked, the smiles are real. Though nothing is as unwanted as unsolicited advice, may I give you some anyway? Quit trying to appeal to “legit” media. Make your films about honest lovemaking. You will find a huge audience: the people who complain the loudest about sexuality in public are the very people who are watching porn. What a concept, eh? Real people in love. It’s been my observation that women (and men like me) are repelled by most pornography because it is so fake and obviously contrived. Un-sex, devoid of love. Report
A million years ago, I came into one of the online arguments discussing this whole “Why is *THIS* okay to watch but *THAT* isn’t?” discussion in which the Lenny Bruce bit TVD posted for us (thanks, Tom) played prominently.
Sex films should be good to watch, splat films should be bad to watch… but society has no problem with splat films but is all prudish about sex films!
Everybody was in agreement when I showed up. Challenge accepted.
I tried to put together a voice that could make an argument that would make sense that someone else could realistically hold.
“You ain’t never gonna see a zombie horde. You ain’t never gonna see someone dropped into a vat of nukular waste. You ain’t never gonna see someone strewn about with a weedwacker. All of that is just silly bullshit. Someday, however, you’re going to find yourself with a woman in your bed… and instead of being thankful, being grateful, you’re going to have a checklist of things that you’re going to be champing at the bit to get doing and it’s not going to be you doing something with somebody else it’s going to be you doing something to somebody else’s body.”
If you look at something like Shindler’s List or Saving Private Ryan and compare it to Nightmare on Elm Street or Hellraiser, you see two *ENTIRELY* different experiences of violence. The former category is the horror of atrocity. You have a moral response to seeing what you see there… *THIS ACTUALLY HAPPENED*. The latter? It’s a cheap burst of Epinephrine, the feeling of feeling like being scared when, really, you’re safe as houses…
Which brings us to your movies. Now, most porn movies out there are deliberately fantasies translated to digital form (with an intended audience that skews heavily male). Boobs that are larger than life, dongs that are larger than life, tattoos in really crazy places, piercings in even crazier places, situations that, in real life, without preparation are likely to result in a UTI or an e.coli attack. Fantasies intended to help those with limp or atrophied imaginations still enjoy a few moments of the pleasure of the palm.
Your films, by contrast, center on two, all things considered, healthy people who share a healthy relationship that includes a healthy sex life and your camera captures not only a few moments of their engaging in the act of love but lingers on how they relate to each other as spiritual, physical, deeply human partners. Instead of feeling like a fantasy of sex, it’s a glimpse of the attainable reality that two healthy people who love each other, who share each other, can have with each other.
Normal “two minutes to pound one out” porn has the same relationship to your films as movies like Final Destination have to the picture you’ve provided us at the top of your post.Report
Well argued, and I agree.
None the less, the fact remains, imagery like I’ve used at the top of this post frequently finds its way into publications like The Atlantic, Life, or the New York Times, where as the imagery that sets my films apart never finds its way into such publications. (If I had lead the post with a graphic depiction of intercourse there wouldn’t be a debate about whether or not the use of the picture was appropriate, the debate would be about whether or not to continue to allow me to post at The League.)
Moreover, Glyph’s original comment wasn’t that he was disquieted by the imagery in my films, but by the testimony, testimony that is given by people who are fully clothed, who, if they use colloquial sex language, do so in the gentlest of ways.
Rather than simply chalking up Glyph’s reaction to his own prudery or lack of sophistication, or cultural hypocrisy, I think it’s worth pondering what it is that makes images of sex so volatile, even when framed in the most normative, pro-social context imaginable.Report
When you encounter two real people engaging in real acts that are healthy, it feels like a violation of their intimacy (despite all of the paperwork they signed beforehand and the conversation they have with you and the audience).
It feels like stealing. Eavesdropping. Peeping.Report
Why?Report
Why not?
It might seem like I’m being flippant, but I’m not. Violence is in a sense always and of necessity a public act: it’s always either the violation of or the carrying out of a social trust or a social command. When someone commits an act of violence, in a very real sense they commit it against us, even if we’re not the direct victims of it.
Sex is not necessarily a public act. In fact, it rarely is, because consensual sex doesn’t violate any real social contract between the public at large.
I understand the idea that our sexual mores are overly strict, but you’ve chosen to disanalogous concepts, violence and sex. The more you try to force them to align, the less it makes sense to do so.
I think the disparity between sex and violence in art is something worth addressing, but when you use The Atlantic and The New York Times as your examples, you’re either expanding your definition of art to the point that it’s meaningless, or you’re again arguing that apples are like lawnmowers.Report
It’s access to one of the most personal private areas in any relationship. To compare to mainstream pr0n, mainstream stuff is just animalistic rutting intended to get one from here to there relatively quickly.
Now, I haven’t seen your movies (I’m a bit of a prude) but I don’t know that they strike me as exceptionally spankworthy.
As such, I’d say that they defy categorization and since they aren’t categorized in the shameful-but-utilitarian category (gotta balance the humors, after all), the closest category is what? There’s too much Love for it to be biological, too much biology for it to be family fare, and “Porn For Evangelicals” isn’t a category. Well, yet.
If it can’t be categorized, it’s got this weird and terrifying effect. It’s like noticing someone and not being able to figure out if the person in question is male or female… either due to a lack of cues or a handful of conflicting ones.
For some reason, people freak out if they can’t categorize.
Note: I do not *CONDONE* freaking out when one encounters gender confusion. I merely acknowledge its existence and, so far, its resistance to education.Report
This.
To add, the difference in violence and sex in art, and in entertainment in particular, may be as simple as a preference for the public over the private even in art. There is only so deep we want to delve into the lives of others, and even when we delve that deep, in a sex scene for example, we want it to be highly stylized, idealized, to create distance both between the people involved and between them and us. Oddly, the real analogy goes like this: real world violence is to sex in art as real world sex is to violence in art. I’m thinking of The Gulf War Did Not Take Place. But much like sex, a sort of semi-underground market for real, intimate violence has popped up (e.g., rotten.com).Report
Again, I wonder if you needed to use that image, and by extension those people, to make this point. Obviously you think you did, but you still haven’t really argued why.
Also, I wonder if you consider sex news. I mean, violence, particularly large scale or extremely brutal violence, violence in the service of ethnic cleansing, violence perpetrated by governments or in civil wars, violence perpetrated by us or against us, are all news, and important news, news that we should be aware of. So it seems wholly unsurprising that there’d be images of violence in The Atlantic or the New York Times or even life, and regularly. We live in a violent world. This is one way in which your examples break down.
The question is how to situate sex: talk of it and images of it. This is as important as the why. In fact, I don’t think the why is all that difficult, in either the case of sex or violence. And I don’t think you’re really asking it anyway. Anyway, nice plug.Report
Because in the course of my work as a filmmaker, I have produced a well-received film containing footage of one man killing another man by hacking his head off with a machete and then hacking at the body as the head rolls away. The tension between how and why images of violence and sex are produced and received is not theoretical for me. It is a fact that is incorporated into how I see the world.
I could have included footage from my own film, but felt that might just be over the top, so I reviewed about 200 images until I found one that conveyed a sense of publicness and observation that I found helpful in conveying the information I wanted this post to conveyReport
See my comment above. You want to conflate violence in the world and sex in the world with violence in your art and sex in your art.
My suggestion, however, if you want to really make your point: film you and your wife having sex, and post it here. I’m not kidding. If you’re at all reticent about doing so, you might see my point.Report
Chris, you’re so committed to the idea of disagreeing with me that you’ve made the points I had hoped this post would tease out, and then folded your hands across your chest in victory.
I mean, did you even watch the clip at the end of the post. You’ve pretty much in concordance with Bill and Desiree, which puts you in agreement with me. Congratulations on (finally) posting some clear-headed analysis!Report
David, I’m not interested in agreeing or disagreeing with you. I’m interested in getting rid of that image, and of expressing why I want it gone. If, in doing so, I actually make the point you want me to make, so be it. I can live with that. That you think I can’t says more about you than it does about me. I look forward to the intimate video or photo of you and your wife replacing the image, since that’s precisely the point I’m making. Again, if you’re not going to put that photo or image up, then either we’re making different points, or you’re not really committed to yours.Report
(If I had lead the post with a graphic depiction of intercourse there wouldn’t be a debate about whether or not the use of the picture was appropriate, the debate would be about whether or not to continue to allow me to post at The League.)
There’s one very mundane reason for this:
There are people out there whose job it is to fire people who look at, ahem, “racy” pictures on the internets when they are at work.
Our little league here prides itself on being someplace where people can expect to visit during the day without being visited by one of the folks whose job it is to fire people who look at, ahem, “racy” pictures on the internets.
Indeed, if I found out that there was a person out there who got fired for visiting websites with atrocity porn on them following this post, I’d be far more likely to fire a “you should have known better” in your direction than in the direction of the guy who was fired.Report
“People rarely use the NSFW tag for images of extreme violence”
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/06/the-subtle-usefulness-of-nsfw/258004/Report
And potential reasons for this have been given.Report
I see that the ad for David’s movies using this photo to manipulate people into noticing it is still on the front page of the blog. Some people really are scum.
P.S. David, lest you think this is simply some personal vendetta against you, observe that I’m here siding with Tom. You’d have to be pretty damn self-absorbed to think that I’d agree with Tom just to disagree with you. That, or not read any posts on this blog that you don’t write. OK, that last part seems about right, and pretty much implies the former anyway. So I hope you conclude that I really do think using that photo to advertise your movies is pretty much the shittiest thing ever on this blog (you’ve got Cheeks beat by a mile).
P.P.S. If any of this violates the comment policy, so be it. If this violates a policy and this use of that photo doesn’t, the values used to set policy are seriously fucked up.Report