love of… what?
Daniel Larison has a sharp post up (which Andrew has linked to) that I think really demands attention, as his discussion of patriotism and criticism of one’s country really hits home.
Daniel writes
One of the most tired accusations is that so-and-so “blames America first,” which in a more sane world would be understood as taking responsibility for one’s own flaws. One would think that a more damning charge would be to say that someone never blames America, and so refuses to take responsibility for anything done in her, our, name, but even this use of the word blame is misguided.
Once again, I find this discussion demonstrates how damaging the relativism we reserve for foreign policy discussion is. (I know, I know– I’m a one trick pony. But she’s a good horse, so why not ride?) As I’ve said before, the basic rhetorical turn in American foreign policy discussion is to never permit critics of America to ask, “Is America moral?” but always to cajole them to ask “Is America more or less moral than X?” X, usually, being an international actor of such obvious misbehavior that the answer to the question can’t help but be “yes”. As I have likewise said before, the question doesn’t interest me, at all. I just don’t think that morality is a concept that makes sense in relative measure. I also think a genuine impediment to our having a moral and pragmatic understanding of foreign policy is that so many people are convinced that we have to use entirely different evaluative criteria for what is right or beneficial.
You’ve heard that from me before, if you’ve read me on this topic. But what I also want to say, partly in response to Daniel’s post, is that it also goes the other way. The question of whether Britain or France or Japan or Switzerland or Canada or wherever is more moral than the United States doesn’t particularly interest me. I think that we can look for inspiration from other countries, but simply saying that we suffer compared to Enlightened Country X fails for just the same reason as just saying that we are better than Bad Actor X: such statements tend to point us to no meaningful corrective action. Moral statements, I think, should be corrective statements; we make them primarily in the desire to create positive change. What’s more, I think that there is some notion out there that saying “this is something wrong with our country” amounts to declaring the desire to join some other country. That isn’t the case. Where could one go? Country is like family. Criticism and anger take place, and should, in a context where no one is going to up and leave in frustration. And for that reason, as it is with family, criticism of country should be empowered: once you have established that everyone involved is in it for the long run, you are free to stop being polite and to confront the deep, deep issues.
And, of course, there isn’t Enlightened Country X. All of the countries I mentioned have boxes of bad deeds in their present and the past. There are aspects of those country’s governments that I would like the United States to adopt, but that doesn’t mean that I’m naive to the very many failings of those or other countries. Those countries are not my country. I’m interested in their behavior, particularly as the United States influences and changes it, but my responsibility extends only that far, as far as we are responsible for their actions. That’s another reason why I find the “blame America first” line so, well, besides the point. Sure, I blame America first. I blame America second, third and fourth too, not because of some great righteousness in America’s peers but because my responsibility to this democracy means that I am compelled to criticize it. Similarly, when people say that the United States is the most benevolent and tolerant great power in the history of the world, they may be right. I’m not sure, I’m not historian enough to judge. But it certainly could be the case. That just isn’t sufficient, if reaching that position doesn’t mean that this country comports itself in a righteous way, according to simple moral codes. It’s true, I may be holding America to impossible standards. But then we’re getting to the question of who, exactly, wants the best for it.
I don’t know. What most people take to be the elementary question of patriotism– do you love your country?– has always seemed just bizarre, to me, just a deeply strange thing to ask. I think for many of us, there’s lots of elements of American culture and politics that we feel perfectly comfortable with, and then there are conventions that make us feel completetly alien to our own country. That’s what the question of loving your country brings out in me. To me, it’s like asking me “do you love yourself?” Who knows? And what good would it do me if I did? It’s a non sequitur. It’s frequently functionally unanswearable, and if you could answer it, it wouldn’t be anybody’s business. Questions about love for country, I think, are places where we desperately need the influence of genuine conservative values: love for country is not a subject that should be the business of government, society or culture.
Personally, I think America’s involvement in the Second World War alone puts us in a whole different and pretty damn untouchable realm in terms of significant moral accomplishments. Without the US, it’s very likely that the globe would’ve fallen to a sick mixture of fascism, communism, and the kind of racial imperialism practiced by the Japs. It’s not an exaggeration to say that the liberal values of the Enlightenment were in existential danger during the 1940’s, and the United States was absolutely crucial in their survival.
Furthermore, even if the Nazi and Japanese regimes had otherwise crumbled, without America it’s hard to imagine that Europe could’ve resisted Soviet expansionism. Especially when you consider the strength of their homegrown communist movements, especially in France and Italy. Despite our myriad Cold War evils, we were the essential backbone of international liberalism and democracy, a shining light if ever there was one.
America, really, is responsible for human freedom as we know and take for granted not perishing during the latter half of the 20th century. We were not alone in battling the various totalitarianisms that threatened to lock mankind in chains, but we were undoubtedly the heart, soul, and muscle of the resistance.
Of course, all this doesn’t mean that we haven’t done some pretty fucked up shit. Oh, we certainly have alright. And there’re probably nations that have fewer blunders and misdeeds to their name. But how many can boast, even once, savior status?
America *is* unique. Our contemporaries may sniff, but I’m positive history will remember the US in the finest light, as the most dedicated friend of freedom, the most staunch partisan of equality, the most vocal advocate of political and social rights civilization has yet produced.Report
1. The defeat of Germany owes as much as, or more, to the Russians as the United States. That fact has been given short shrift around here because of anti-Soviet sentiment. The defense of Stalingrad had as much to do with defeating Hitler as the invasion of Normandy.
2. We didn’t fight out of the conviction that the Nazis and Japanese were evil; we fought because they had attacked us or our allies. Defending yourself is morally neutral.
3. More importantly, as necessary and morally positive as the defeat of the Axis powers was, and as much credit as America certainly deserves for that defeat, I reject the premise of what you’re saying. I don’t believe in a kind of aggregate morality, where you just take the amount of good as positive, the amount of bad as negative, and just compute the net value of our deeds. It’s like saying that if you save a busload of people one week, you can go out and rape a couple people the next week, because on net you’re still a force for good. I don’t think it works that way.Report
Just a quick response to the German thing – America and the Allied powers were responsible for some egregious war crimes against both the Japanese and Germans which due to our victory has been white-washed and sanitized, and finally glorified and sanctified in national myth. I mean this as no defense for the Nazis, but a whole lot of innocent German citizens were firebombed long after that was at all necessary. War rarely puts anyone on a moral high ground. Much more likely it makes monsters out of the good guys.Report
“1. The defeat of Germany owes as much as, or more, to the Russians as the United States. That fact has been given short shrift around here because of anti-Soviet sentiment. The defense of Stalingrad had as much to do with defeating Hitler as the invasion of Normandy.”
Probably true. But that doesn’t change my point: Without US involvement, Europe would’ve gone black or red. Either way, the human spirit would’ve lost. Big time.
“2. We didn’t fight out of the conviction that the Nazis and Japanese were evil; we fought because they had attacked us or our allies. Defending yourself is morally neutral.”
That’s what finally dragged us into the war, but there was much support for involvement long before that. Also, regardless of realpolitik considerations, there *was* a genuine idealism to the war.
And, whatever our intentions, the outcome was undeniably a moral positive (the preservation of a liberal-ish international system rooted in human rights and dignity). Liberal and rights oriented at least in comparison to the order that would have emerged with all Europe and Asia and beyond consumed by fascism and murderous communism.
“More importantly, as necessary and morally positive as the defeat of the Axis powers was, and as much credit as America certainly deserves for that defeat, I reject the premise of what you’re saying. I don’t believe in a kind of aggregate morality, where you just take the amount of good as positive, the amount of bad as negative, and just compute the net value of our deeds. It’s like saying that if you save a busload of people one week, you can go out and rape a couple people the next week, because on net you’re still a force for good. I don’t think it works that way.”
Well, your example is a ridiculous simplification, but nonetheless I agree. Except that this is a unique situation, as we said. America saved the w0rld from totalitarianism. Had we stood aside, walled ourselves off in a continental fortress, the 20th century would’ve been a triumph of the most abysmal sorts of authoritarianism ever imagined.
Does any other nation in any other time have that claim? Don’t give me that “Well the Russians really defeated the Krauts!” crap. What of it? Had we been out of the game, all that would’ve meant was Soviet tanks rolling into Paris within a couple weeks of taking Berlin. Not a pretty prospect.
Again, what other nation can make claim to having saved mankind from itself in such a way? I can’t think of any. That honor is so great and so momentous and so singular as to make all sins look rather petty.Report
“Just a quick response to the German thing – America and the Allied powers were responsible for some egregious war crimes against both the Japanese and Germans which due to our victory has been white-washed and sanitized, and finally glorified and sanctified in national myth. I mean this as no defense for the Nazis, but a whole lot of innocent German citizens were firebombed long after that was at all necessary. War rarely puts anyone on a moral high ground. Much more likely it makes monsters out of the good guys.”
No doubt. And though I’m typically wary of looking for justifications in ends, I sometimes conclude that the moral implications of an action ultimately supercede the action itself.Report
So Philip you can really not think of a situation where one evil actor prevents an even more horrifying outcome? Because what you are suggesting is an entirely ends-tested vision of morality, which, frankly, I find totally incompatible with conventional morality. And you are of course privileged with the information of what did happen, whereas we can’t see the consequences of what didn’t.
I mean, look, if you can say that the consequences of someone (or some country’s) actions are positive, then they are morally superior, regardless of their intention or means, I think that’s pretty radical from a philosophical standpoint. Maybe Joe McCarthy actually stopped some Russian spy from stealing vital secrets. That not only doesn’t excuse his actions, it can’t.Report
“Maybe Joe McCarthy actually stopped some Russian spy from stealing vital secrets. That not only doesn’t excuse his actions, it can’t.”
Well Freddie, I bet a lot of folk might think Joe’s actions patriotic, laudable. (Not me.) Your statement, above, is getting into the “by no definition of the word” territory plowed by E.D.
Avoid absolutes absolutely.Report
Even that absolute, Bob?
Just kidding.Report
It was a hoot when I typed it.Report
Freddie,
I have always found your outlook on these issues convincing and appealing, and especially a useful corrective to the kind of blinkered nationalistic superiority complex that seems to attach itself to interventionists. (I’ve taken to citing you when I debate my TNR-loving, AIPAC-supporting liberal-hawk cousin Dan over at the GW Discourse blog, for instance.)
I can never quite sign on to your view of things though, though I want to. It’s an honest, humble kind of idealism that seems far more liberal in its goals and straightforward in its terms than what is typically considered “liberal” (i.e. the institution-based yet militarized internationalism that predominates in the “center”) — even if it is based on a deeply anti-modernist notion, as it treats the nation-state as a cultural background rather than merely as the dominating institution composing a world system or order. It’s a deeply humanistic idea, which I admire, but remain skeptical of –due no doubt to my own cultural background and prejudices.
Perhaps I’ve just been too indoctrinated into realpolitik, or perhaps its just my extreme pessimism towards power in general, but I admit to having a strongly illiberal belief in the utter impossibility of a foreign policy that is both moral and pragmatic. Which is basically to say that I see a condition of statehood being that pragmatism will always demand (and has always demanded) the occasional atrocity, violation of human rights, etc. World War II is a perfect example, actually. We as a culture overestimate the degree to which human strife, greed, and provincial tribalism can be ameliorated or productively channeled via liberalism (in both the economic and political senses). Though many of it’s other assumptions (such as rationality) strike me as obviously wrong, I tend to accept the postulate of realism that power is the central motive for state actions, and therefore see all ideologies–even my own!–as essentially serving to justify a world that is deeply hostile to morality as we understand it. So I sometimes find the whole morality debate futile and stupid, since I tend to see very little of your kind of moral concerns expressed sincerely- only liberal-modernist triumphalism, blatantly hypocritical nationalist moral posturing, or honest villainy. Like I said, it’s an extreme and arguably conservative pessimism, and it clashes badly with my personal hopes, inclinations, and my other typical ideological principles. From what I can tell, though, it’s actually pretty close to Larison’s worldview, but without the religious core. I’m still working on why that is, given my usual liberalism in other political and philosophical fields.Report
Uh, just to clarify, my citing of WWII was in reference to the discussion upthread between Freddie and Philip about the morality of American involvement as well as the nuclear-weapons issue, and obviously not the Holocaust, through the rest of the world’s reaction to such a horrifying systematic genocidal massacre supports my point that moralism in international relations is at best self-deluded and hypocritical.Report
Well, “at best self-deluded and hypocritical” unless taken to the extremes that Freddie does, which is what I meant to say I admire about his views.Report
Oh, and if all this seems intellectually incoherent, the conclusion of my first comment was meant as an admission of that.Report
There’s a lot to be said, Joseph, but at present, let me just say: the ends that we think we can achieve by not doing something are almost always more achievable than the ends we think we can achieve by doing something.Report