Same-Sex Marriage: A Response
If all goes as planned tomorrow, Minnesota, where I reside will become the 12th state to legalize same-sex marriage. I’m sharing a post I wrote back in 2011. It ended up on Frum Forum, David Frum’s old website and it was written in response to a fellow conservative author who criticized Frum for changing his mind on same-sex marriage. I talked about my marriage to my partner Daniel in 2007 and an event a year later that brought the whole civil marriage issue home to us.
On September 15, 2007, I got married.
It was a pretty normal, run-of-the-mill event as weddings go. I was held in a small picturesque Episcopal Church just outside of Minneapolis. The sanctuary was decorated with flowers. The families of both parties were there and beaming with excitement. The only thing that might not make this event the typical wedding is that I was getting married to another man, my partner, Daniel.
At that wedding, we pledged to be faithful to each other and our relationship was blessed by the Episcopal priest and those gathered including both of our parents. Our wedding (and Daniel was insistent we call it a wedding) was soley religious since Minnesota doesn’t allow for same sex marriage. At some level, it didn’t matter that we were not married in the eyes of the state. It was important that we made a committment to one another in front of the gathered community and in front of God.
However, a year later, it did matter.
One October morning, Daniel woke me up saying he had some kind of chest pains. So, we got in my car and headed to the closest hospital. After a few tests, it was determined that Daniel was having a gallbladder attack. Surgery was scheduled the next day.
At Daniel’s request, I called his brother and sister who live in North Dakota. His sister and family decided to make the five hour trip from Grand Forks to Minneapolis to join me. I can remember as clear as day, Daniel asking me to bring the legal documents we had drawn up that would allow me to see him should anyone get snippy with me.
You see, because Daniel and I were not legally married in Minnesota, I didn’t automatically have hospital visitation rights. His sister automatically has those priviledges because they were immediate kin, but I had to have papers on hand should someone decide that my word wasn’t good enough.
Now, living as we do in Minneapolis where there is a large gay community, there was a good chance I would be let in to see Daniel. But I coudln’t say that with certainty and if I were in another part of the state, I might very have had to produce those documents.
John Vecchinone’s post on against same sex marriage is the standard argument fond in many Republican circles: he is angry that in New York same-sex marriage is called a marriage, he talks about how he and others like him who disagree with the idea will be hounded by elites and he talks about how the recent decision by four GOP Senators to vote for the same sex marriage bill in New York will doom the state party.
So, let’s take them one by one. Vecchione is opposed to calling a same-sex marriage a marriage. Fine. I’m okay with using the term “civil unions” and several states have gone that route. I’m willing to get half a loaf instead of none. But if that alone were the issue, you’d think Vecchione would talk about the importance of the state at least giving some legal status to people like Daniel and I and while he doesn’t support same sex marriage, he would support civil unions. (Sociologist Peter Berger did so in good essay earlier this year.) But Vecchinone doesn’t do that. He talks about why he doesn’t like same sex marriage which seems to include any type of relationship of two same sex persons. So I can only conclude that isn’t just upset about gay people using the name “marriage” he’s upset the state is daring to even recognize any form of same sex relationship.
The other interesting point to be made is Vecchinone’s assertion that this vote will doom the state GOP. “We could have been the ‘27 Yankees. We are shaping up to be the ‘62 Mets.” he said.
Frankly, I don’t know how he makes this connection. For one thing, one only has to look at the dwindling number of Republicans representing the Empire State in Washington. Even into the late 1990s, there were a substantial number of New York Republicans in Congress and Senators like Alfonse D’Amato also common. Today, Republicans hold six of the 29 congressional seats and increase of the all time low of two representatives in the 111th Congress. The GOP lost one earlier this year where Medicare, not gay marriage was the factor. In 2009, partisan infighting led to the GOP losing the 23rd congressional district, which had been a Republican district since the civil war. What could have been an easy win, became a pick-up for the Dems because some conservatives couldn’t support a gay friendly GOP candidate. Ironically, the recent increase in GOP representatives included two gay-friendly Republicans: Nan Hayworth and Richard Hanna.
In my own work through Log Cabin Republicans, I have noticed how many young Republicans just don’t understand why people are so afraid of same sex marriage. It could be that they see more and more gay people in their lives and they count many of them as their friends. Why in the world would they want to block their friends from having the same rights that they themselves have?
Vecchinone might think that defending traditional marriage is key to GOP victory, but as evidenced by David Frum’s conversion, even conservatives can see the handwriting on the wall. Those of us who are gay and want to have the same marriage rights don’t want to destroy marriage or the American society. What we do want is to be able to do what hetrosexual married persons do: to do really mundane things like visit each other in the hospital.
Same-sex marriage is not the end of the world. It’s just allowing that world to get a little bit bigger.
This is one of those things that makes me see red.
I cannot understand the mindset of the person who says “well, I don’t care, you’re not allowed in the room”. What kind of spiritual poison must someone be pumping through their veins to deny two people time together in a hospital room, of all places. Even if I thought gays were icky. Even if I thought that they were destined for Hell Itself!, I cannot understand the mindset that says “and on top of that, you can’t hold his hand while he’s freaking out.”
That’s Stalin-level bullshit. I cannot comprehend it.Report
Yes, where exactly do hospitals get off determining who may and may not visit a patient? I get that sometimes “no visitors at all” might be necessary, but I don’t see why a hospital should be in a position to be more discriminating than that.Report
I’m not sure why they ever made such a policy in the first place, unless it was a quick and easy way to keep really popular patients from getting swamped with too many visitors. I could see that has having been a problem, because if everybody thought visiting a patient was a proper display of respect (and more problematically a way to show the community that you care), then patients would’ve been swamped by old ladies bringing picnic baskets. Worse might have been all the potential heirs who despise each other and want to hold a “I love you most, rich dying grandpa!” contest. They could leave it up to the patient, but perhaps they realized that patients shouldn’t have to put up with the stress of offending anyone.
Like I said, I’m not sure why they adopted the current policies, but there was probably a problem it addressed.Report
It was actually a form of affirmative action, to reduce the hurt feelings of the less popular patients.Report
Offhand? I’d guess it’s mostly because hospitals are busy enough places without visitors, and each additional person in a room is another complication in emergencies.
Practically speaking, it makes a LOT of sense to keep visitors to a minimum — and I’ve noted the only places hospitals are actually very serious about it are the more emergency prone areas (ICU, wards dealing with heart issues, NICU, etc).
Everywhere else, it’s more “don’t make a lot of noise people are sleeping” sort of deal and they’ve never really limited visitors, just visiting hours.Report
Yeah, there needs to be some rules about visitors. You could let everyone in with a sign-in in a lot of situations. But if someone is really sick, you probably want to allow only a select few in. Visitors often come to bring happiness, but sometimes they bring stress and more risk of infection, and hospitals want only a select few to be there.
The rule “families only” is probably not the fairest, best way to do it. But spouses should get in automatically, of course, and gay spouses should count as spouses. Case closed. That’s all that matters here.Report
True. And spouses for another reason entirely: The hospital absolutely NEEDS to know who has the authority to make medical decisions if the patient is incapable of doing so.Report
Are you talking about the temerity of the hospital guy for saying who can or cannot go in? Or are you talking about people like Vecchinone who won’t even grant that basic minimum to people?Report
I don’t know that the hospital guy has the jurisdiction he’s claiming in the first place, let alone Vecchinone’s application of that mistaken jurisdiction.Report
As a security measure, would you think it better if the hospital guy didn’t say that such and such a person cannot go in, but required everyone to sign in and out whoever it was? i.e. whoever went in would have to produce some picture ID which the hospital guy would verify. In that way, anyone gets to go in, but if anything happens, there is a record of who is in the room at the time of occurence and that person can be tracked down if foul play is suspected.Report
Well i’m glad we can agree that if the hospital or the doctors or nurses had religious objections to having a gay partner see his/her partner that shouldn’t be relevant.Report
And if they worked at the IRS, they shouldn’t give added scrutiny to these couples either.Report
Word.Report
You know how legalities and procedure works Jay. Also in a lot of cases there’s an unconscious or incoherent patient and a very coherent parent or family member asking for the gay partner to be shown out*. So in places where there’s no form of legal protection for same sex couples it’s the legally enforced authority versus the legally unenforced authority. I’m not defending it on a moral level (it’s abhorrent) but on a procedural level it has a certain logic. America is a litigious society after all.
*This is especially personal for me since my husband’s biological mother strenuously disapproved of his and my relationship. We had some hair rising conversations with lawyers about the limits of our medical power of attorney documents. It was another log of animus on his and her relationship that has thawed a little in recent times. Ironically her primary grief with his partner is not that I’m a man but that I’m white. Why couldn’t he have found a nice black man to marry?Report
So it’s an issue of “we can’t just let some guy in from off the street say ‘that’s my life partner!’ because, god knows, maybe he just wants into the building to start unplugging shit”?Report
One of the things Maribou and I had to do after we got married was go back, a couple of years later, and have an interview with some guy behind a desk about how we were actually “in love” and I wasn’t engaged in some elaborate Canadian Bride Smuggling.
The fiance visa is the easiest method to immigrate, after all. We can’t have people who aren’t stupid in love abusing it. So she and I are sitting there in metal chairs across from this guy who is trying to gauge if we are actually, for real, married or just pretend immigration married.
Now we can make Americans who married Americans put up with that bullshit.Report
Frankly I’d be happy if we’d just let gay americans who marry gay non-americans have the privledge of putting up with what you and Maribou endured. If I wasn’t half american my husband and I would have been right royally screwed (well he’d probably be living in Canada actually so my Mother would be delighted).Report
Given some of the weird messiness that occurs around domestic disputes, we really can’t allow a claim of “that’s my life partner” to suffice. Imagine if Jenny Sanford were in a coma and Mark Sanford wanted to visit the hospital room–that’s why legal marriage is important, and why hospitals need some clear-cut way of defining who should be allowed in and who shouldn’t.Report
But Dan, does the current system do anything about that? Absent a restraining order, he’s still her husband, right?Report
I believe they’re divorced aren’t they?Report
That may well be the case.
I suppose my point was that Jaybird’s idea doesn’t introduce that issue. It already exists.
If a man walks into a female patient’s room and says, “Don’t worry, I’m her husband,” will he be asked for papers?Report
If the family claims that he’s actually her ex and that he should be removed, I’d imagine he’d have to produce the papers, and rightfully so.Report
to my knowledge: absent a restraining order were they still married it’d be very difficult to bar him from the room – there’d have to be a really good reason (e.g. violent or erratic behavior at the hospital itself).
obligatory public service announcement – this is why health care proxies are super duper important.Report
They’re divorced and there’s a restraining order out against him.Report
In essence, yeah. Anything from as minor as they’ll lift all the toothpicks and steal the patients wallet up to they’ll murder/assault the patient. The hospital is liable for who they let in.Report
There’s a lot of crime in hospitals, from theft of property to kidnaping of newborns (rare, but, as you’d expect, taken pretty seriously); as a result, hospitals are very security-conscious these days.Report
The hospital we were in put sensors on the babies that would go off if you even got close to an exit door. It was exciting when we accidentally tripped the alarm because our room door was right next to an exit door!Report
It was lower-tech when mine were born. We all got matching paper bracelets, and no one adult could take the baby anywhere without the right one.Report
What are you, like 200 years old?Report
That’s pretty much how Chuck E. Cheese works, except they use invisible ink on the back of your hand.Report
Which is even more important, because some kids will walk off with any adult who has tokens left.Report
But oddly enough, when I was in the hospital nobody checked my wife’s papers–they just took her word for it. So while I get the security/liability issue, there’s still a double-standard in place. At least until there’re a few lawsuits and/or everyone gets used enough to SSM that they just see it as M.Report
That’s the thing. My wife’s been in the hospital several times over the years for various reasons and in various states and not once have I been asked to prove our relationship in order to visit her. This includes post-surgical recovery rooms where she wasn’t conscious.Report
Oh I agree gays should be treated like straights with regards to married status. But Jay was asking about the overarching purpose of hospitals restricting people’s access to patients which I think is generally justified or at least understandable.Report
Right, I agree with you. But that means I’m still stuck on why their’s some class of people from whom they don’t demand ID. The rule as applied to gay people seems like a perfectly reasonable rule of general applicability, so why does one class get an exemption?Report
Because we love families.Report
I don’t know for sure since I have (thanks be!!!) never experienced it directly myself.Report
Because there’s regular people and there’s people whose lives are an affront to all that’s good and holy.Report
But enough about Kazzy…Report
In hospitals in Singapore, anyone can visit a patient as long as they sign in and out when they do so and indicate who they are visiting. Visitation is not restricted to family membersReport
Having recently been in the hospital for an extended period during Zazzy’s delivery and recovery period, it seems to me that primary authority for hospital visitation should lie with the patient him/herself, provided the presence of guests does not interfere with the care being delivered. Our hospital allowed one “spouse or support person” to be present during labor and delivery; you could also have a birth professional (mid-wife, doula, etc.) in addition. The reason for the limitation was the complications that arose from the presence of too many people. But they seemed to give every indication that whomever the pregnant woman wanted to be that one guest would be fine with them.
No one has a positive right to be in a hospital room. If Dennis’s partner did not want him present, for whatever reason, that should be respected. And I’d say the same about a heterosexual married couple.
I recognize difficulties could arise if a patient is unconscious or otherwise unable to indicate their wishes. Especially if decisions need to be made on their behalf. In this case, it would seem that any legal document indicating their preferences should be treated as equal to their spoken requests in the hospital. In this case, if Dennis had signed documents indicating Daniel wanted him to be there and/or to have sole authority, that should be followed, full stop.
If no such documents exist, I think it would be wise for the policy to establish a gender/sexual orientation neutral hierarchy. Each one could do so in accordance with their own philosophy and values, but it would have to be applied universally and without discrimination. So if you have language in their related to a married partner or husband or wife and the person in question can provide any documentation to that effect, to testify to the fact that they were living in a mutually agreed upon relationship of such structure, it should be respected, regardless of whether it meets all requirements for legal recognition.
But that’s just my crazy, liberal, family hating ideas.Report
I had assumed that laws restricting visitors applied only when it was hard to determine the patient’s wishes. If it’s not, then the fact that there’s a restrictive procedure at all–and independent of whether it’s enforced invidiously against gay couples–truly is a bad thing (absent other considerations of which I’m ignorant).Report
I think that’s correct. Kazzy’s example of a pregnant woman is atypical; relatively few patients in a hospital are perfectly healthy and have been planning their stay for months.Report
Likely the case. In which case, I’d defer to any signed document articulating the patient’s wishes and, absent then, fallback to a hierarchy. If we give precedence to lift partners, it shouldn’t matter what their gender, sexual orientation, or legal status is. If you can appropriately document that you have been sharing a life together, it’d qualify in my eyes. Evidence of the sort of ceremony that Dennis discusses here would suffice.
But, again, I hate families.Report
If we give precedence to lift partners,
So long we don’t elevate them above the rest.Report
My mother worked in a hospice, they had a very simple procedure. When you go in you specify who you want to visit you. One lady apparently had the family dog brought in, though I don’t know how they dealt with the hygiene issues there. Certainly there was no suggestion you had to fit into a legal box to be allowed through the door.Report
Well crap, man. I had a gay marriage post that was going to go up this week and this blew that out of the water. Back to the drawing board…
(Seriously, great post, and I cosign what Jaybird said.)Report
Put it up anyhow Will. You’re a good writer and you have a conservative perspective that’s different from Dennis’.Report
It’s entirely irrelevant to your point, which is well-taken. But I’m curious: did you get any static when you presented yourself as the patient’s husband at the hospital? And while I’m sure your in-laws backed you up, did they have to vouch for you?
Also, I hope congratulations are in order for Minnesota tomorrow.Report
This isn’t a substantive point, but great pic of you two.Report
+1Report
I will third this.Report
I’ll fourth Greginak’s comment, third Anne’s, and second yours.Report
Ditto to the pic. Also, I’m keeping my fingers crossed for Minnesota. In Oregon our state constitution says marriage is between a man and a woman :(. I’m hoping it will be on an upcoming ballot to change that.Report
So do you have plans to make it all legal now?
If so you’ll be like my wife and me. For logistical reasons that aren’t important here, we initially got legally married by a JP and then had a regular church wedding about six months later. So we legitimately (at least sort of, depending on how you look at it) have two distinct anniversary dates. Two dates to accidentally forget and get in trouble over. Two dates to celebrate. Two dates to confuse relatives.Report
When Jason and I started dating, we were entering a long-distance relationship. Our first face-to-face date was Oct 29 (anniversary #1). Later, Jason came out to visit me and go see the Painted Desert and Grand Canyon. We spent many hours in a car together and loved every minute of it. We went camping and I enjoyed it (this will be one of Jason’s miracles should he become sainted later on). Our last camping evening on March 24, we held each other by the campfire and promised to love each other and see to the other’s welfare forever (Anniversary #2).
We moved in together on July 29 (Anniversary #3). All three of these dates are reasonable candidates for The Anniversary for a couple who thought they would never be able to have a for-reals wedding, so we picked October 29. After a very few years, though, Canada allowed us to get married on July 18 (Anniversary #4). So now that’s our O-fishal Anniversary, and this year will be the tenth of those; still, later this year will be the 15th of the Oct 29ths, and it’s nice to remember that, too.
Ah well, who’s counting? Advance congratulations on the win today!Report
held each other by the campfire
So who’s the shark and who’s the turtle?Report
Is that what the gravatar is? It looks like a walrus to me.Report
Miss Mary, your guess is as good as mine.Report
My boyfriend’s brother is marrying his girlfriend this December. It’ll be two years to the day since their first date. Pretty sure that fewer dates to remember was one of the reasons they chose that day.Report
I am delighted that my state (fist bumps Dennis) is bringing SSM in. Last night, however, I did discover the downside of this. My husband was speaking with my Mum on the phone (Mothers Day natch) and she asked if we’d be re-doing our marriage here in the states. I, of course, had hoped that we could just say our vows do the paperwork and move on with life but I saw the unholy light of marital nuptial lust ignite in my beloved’s eyes (he was a total groomzilla when we got married in Canada) and quailed in horror on the couch. I hope I’m not being prescient but I feel the hot baleful breath of wedding hoopla on the back of my neck.Report
Leaguefest 2014!Report
Don’t even joke about that!!! Thank God(ess) he doesn’t read this site, he’d get ideas!
On a side note, I simply cannot escape from my work duties to attend the Chicago meet. I’m utterly disconsolate about it. I really wanted to meet some of the Gentlemen and Ladies and dazzle them with my wit (and be dazzled by theirs) in person.Report
I am really sorry you won’t be there, and I know Johanna will be as well.Report
Boo. I would have loved to meet you, North. I bought my plane tickets today :)!Report
I’m so jealous, I shall continue agitating but hope wanes. 🙁Report
I don’t know what kind of consolation prize this might serve as, but Clancy and I are planning to make a stop in Minneapolis this July. I’m hoping to meet some Leaguepeeps while we’re there.Report
Oh that’d be awesome! Keep me appraised. There’re some bangin restaurants around here.Report
Oh, Miss Mary, care to stop at the wineshop before you fly?Report
I belong to two local wine clubs and have more on hand, at the moment, than I can drink. Can you put booze in your luggage? I should bring some.Report
Speaking of groomzillas, have you seen this?: http://www.theonion.com/articles/groomzillas,28577/Report
I hadn’t and now what has been seen can’t be unseen!Report
Amen, brother. Go Minnesota. Maybe in a few years we in Michigan can catch up with you.Report
“Amen, brother. Go Minnesota. Maybe in a few years we in Michigan can catch up with you.”
No – it’ll take the rest of the decade at least to de-Michissippi-ize the state.Report
Fantastic piece, Dennis. And not just because I agree with it! I think your connection with your personal situation is fascinating, and I wish you and Daniel luck as you enjoy the rights and privileges that us heterosexuals have for so long.
Along this same topic, this morning I listened to the Intelligence Squared debate on the future of the GOP which Tim wrote about recently. At one point, the panelists were challenged to rectify stated conservative goals of allowing people to live free of the government telling them what to do with their social agenda. Naturally, the conversation turned towards gay marriage. The side arguing against the motion (which was that the GOP needed to seize the center or die) made an argument that was in part based on promoting certain moral values.
Which, as you note above with regards to Vecchione, tells me that the issue is not one about traditional marriage, families, or anything else that is often trotted out. It is about gays, plain and simple. If you view homosexuality as immoral, such that it should be legislated against (and I would consider prohibitions on gay marriage to be legislation targeted at homosexuals and homosexuality), then your issue is with gay people and how they live their lives. And, as you note, continuing to do so in an increasingly gay friendly society is political suicide.Report
If you view homosexuality as immoral, such that it should be legislated against (and I would consider prohibitions on gay marriage to be legislation targeted at homosexuals and homosexuality), then your issue is with gay people and how they live their lives.
When states passed bans on civil unions and domestic partnerships in addition to same sex marriage, I’m sure it was all about marriage and nothing whatsoever about gays.Report
It was totally about protecting marriage. But to be absolutely sure, they had to include things that provided all of the same rights as marriage, things that provided some of the same rights as marriage, and things that had any of the same letters as “marriage”.Report
Also, as politicians like Newt have proved, sometimes you have to destroy the marriage to save it.Report
Marriage is sacred. So if you’re constantly noticing what a nice butt your new intern has, whatever you and your wife have obviously isn’t a marriage.Report
I disagree. I know people who have marriages that are open in the bedroom and I don’t think it’s up to anyone else to devalue their relationship because of it.Report
Dennis, I really enjoyed this, thank you for it.Report
Kudos on the wonderful picture.
Also, I can’t help but second (or third, or fourth, or whatever we’re at now) the observation that opposition to gay marriage has nothing to do with marriage; it has to do with opposition to homosexuality. To wantto punish certain people during life’s already punishing moments is a cruelty all its own.Report
Change the date and the state from the beginning of the post, and it’s my story, too. Also the bits about relatively mild health scares and surgeries.
What a wonderful post. What a wonderful reason to post it.
As we make our plans for Wedding 2: Now with Rights! in the near future, I am delighted that we will be joined by more and more people state by state whose relationships are finally getting the protection and respect they deserve.Report
“As we make our plans for Wedding 2…”
I’vesaid it before and I’ll say it again… You gays have all the fun.Report
If you’re the sort of guy who enjoys wedding planning, in some ways you are more gay than me.Report
Now that’s just precious. old timey country doc calling chibi-Teddy Roosevelt more gay, or gayerer to coin a phrase, then himself.
sometimes the avatars are almost as much fun as the rest of this place.Report