89 thoughts on “Benedict and Malachy”

  1. This is interesting and a part of Church history I was unfamiliar with.

    I checked this morning and it has been 600 years since the last pope resigned. We are in very interesting waters here. I think the public is going to really get caught up in this over the next few weeks.

    I’m also hoping it sets a new precedent for pope’s leaving before they are too old to be effective. PJP II was like that at the end. Report

    1. JP the 2 on his deathbed was still a better Pope than Ratzinger.

      Why it seems only yesterday he was a spritely 78-year-old on his third hip replacement reminiscing about the folk dances he used to do back in the hitlerjugend.Report

  2. The current pope is alleged to have been connected to some of the Bishops who were entangled badly in the entire child mollestation coverup scandal. I wonder if he’s stepping down or being stepped down (after an appropriate span of time so as to lend deniability to the assertion that the two are connected). Or perhaps I’m being excessively cynical.Report

      1. I think most of the bad stuff about Benedict is already well-known. I’m taking this one at face value. I also think he wants to take a more active role in choosing his successor.Report

        1. I also think he wants to take a more active role in choosing his successor

          This.

          The Papacy, right now, is fixed to make a major change either for the conservative or liberal inclinations of the Church. Benedict is clearly more conservative than his predecessor, I imagine he would like to continue the trend.

          Personally, I think anybody over 50 is probably a really bad idea.Report

        2. I also think he wants to take a more active role in choosing his successor.

          This could be, but it’s a bad reason. As an old guy, Benedict isn’t going to be the one who has to live with the consequence of the decision, so he shouldn’t be the one making it.

          This is a message I learned from both my undergrad and grad mentors, who each criticized retiring faculty who tried to influence the search for their replacements, and who each showed their own class by not trying to do so.Report

  3. Popes can step down? Did not know that.

    I foresee a Hollywood RomCom where the Pope steps down for the love of a woman. She’ll be a firecracker atheist attorney suing the Church for hiding child abuse, and he’ll confound his Cardinals by insisting on making closing arguments himself. They’ll start off hating one another, but the audience will start asking, “will they or won’t they?”

    I see Ryan Reynolds as the Pope and Jennifer Aniston as the spitfire lawyer.Report

        2. Hey! Sorry, didn’t hear the phone, I was uhhhh….in the bathroom.

          This sounds like just the ticket! Sly has been looking to rehab his artistic cred, and get back to his Catholic roots at the same time. Just like Mad Mel!

          Here’s the pitch: aging, washed-up boxer (think Rourke, in The Wrestler) finds out he has been chosen to be the Big G’s representative on earth! He’s gotta bring his pugilism to the people, via the papacy! Talk about a fish outta water!

          We’ll call it Pope On The Ropes! Tagline: “Yo, Hadrian!”.

          Maybe I can even get Gibson to exec-produce, once he completes his community service in Jerusalem!

          We’ll make a mint!Report

  5. Well first of all, thanks for this post. When I heard the news driving in to work this morning, the very first thing I thought was “But what has Saint Malachy said about all of this!!” So thanks for clearing that up.

    (Not really, of course. As is typical, the next thing I thought was “man, that driver from New Hampshire is a total asshole.”)

    Falsification of apocalyptic prophesies fills me with incredible glee. When the world didn’t collapse into a maelstrom of sulfur and ifrits after that one talk radio guy said it would recently, I wished I’d had the means to fly to where he lived and knock on his door, just so I could point and laugh.

    And you’re right about Rome. Everyone said I’d like Florence better before I visited Italy. Nope. Rome was my favorite.Report

    1. Ryan – that is my fear. The speculation when Benedict was elected was that the next pope would be younger and from a third world country. I’m worried they are going to say f-it and go back to the Italians Forever model.Report

            1. According to Wikipedia: “There are now a total of 209 Cardinals, of whom 118 are aged under 80. Of the voting-age cardinals, 51 were appointed by Pope John Paul II, and 67 by Pope Benedict XVI.”

              You have to be under 80 to vote, so 67/118 = 57% were picked by Benedict.Report

              1. I was pretty sure he had a majority so that confirms it (plus a lot of the JPII appointees will favor Benedict). I think this is really just about controlling the succession. Plus he’ll still be in Rome after he retires so we get all kinds of cool intrigue about him pulling strings behind the scenes. Dan Brown must be loving this.Report

              2. In my experience, once you abdicate your position in the power structure in the Church you rapidly become a nonentity in the power structure.

                The Holy Mother does not pay much attention to the offspring once they leave the house.Report

  8. Will they wait until his resignation to choose the new Pope? Or will they start now?

    In college, I had a theology teacher who was a PJPII scholar. I was in his class when he died and CNN actually came to film our subsequent class, which we diverted from the normal agenda (Prophets and Peacemakers… one of the best courses I took) to discuss the papacy. He was ultimately pretty disappointed in the selection, as he hoped/predicted they’d go to a third world country, after choosing PJPII from a (then) second world country. He also thought this was a step toward more conservative Catholicism after PJPII opened up the Church quite a bit. I was very fortunate to have been in that class at that time. He was a layman, but was conveniently named “Pope” (surname), making it all the more special.Report

    1. From what I heard this morning there will be a brief period where there is no pope between his resignation and the election of his successor.

      As for Benedict’s selection he was always thought to be a caretaker pope. The question is if he has stacked the deck in favor of a successor just like himself or if he is onboard with a new third world pope.Report

      1. Every pope is a caretaker pope. It’s a temporary office. That’s what the title “Vicar of Christ” means.

        Anyway, there’ve been about 265 popes in about 2000 years, so the average reign is about 8 years. We’ve just come off of a very long one, so Benedict’s time in office was bound to seem brief.Report

        1. Pinky,

          By ‘caretaker’ the thought was that Benedict was not meant to represent the longterm direction of the Church but to shore up the base and create a transition between the long reign of JPII and perhaps another younger pope from the third world.Report

    2. Looks like they’ll do it in early March. But they don’t have to have a mourning period, since he isn’t dead, so they can just do it as soon as he steps down.

      The betting favorites are apparently Arinze and Peter Turkson at 7-2. I think you may just get a third world/non-white pope, although my understanding is that they tend to be very conservative.Report

      1. ” I think you may just get a third world/non-white pope, although my understanding is that they tend to be very conservative.”

        That’s a really good point. It’s the European Catholics who are much more liberal. Put a Mexican Catholic in there and you may have lost any chance of women being priests for a generation.Report

        3. This analysis is so racist! As if cardinals with a Spanish accent have to think one way, and Italians another. And blacks, well, they all think the same, so pretty much any African pope would be interchangable.Report

          1. They”re drawn from, and to a certain extent represent, a specific community with discernible attitudes. It’s like saying that a senator from Texas will be more conservative than a senator from Hawaii.Report

            1. And because black popes would favor condoms because, you know, they have large penises and are more promiscuous.

              Defend it if you want to; these aren’t groups. They’re individuals who are fairly well-known to their colleagues, and no one’s going to pick “The Italian” or “The Third-Worlder”.Report

              2. I had assumed he meant a Pope from Africa (regardless of skin colour) would be more familiar with the devastation caused by AIDS in that continent, a tragedy that widespread condom use could slow.Report

            2. Actually, I realize that I didn’t make fun of your statement enough. Senators are elected based on the beliefs of the voters. Cardinals aren’t. A South American cardinal doesn’t “represent” his people in the same way. The only way that you can think of him as being typical of South Americans is by racist assumptions.Report

              2. Well, I’m going to assume that you’re not stupid, and ask you to think about the dynamics of the areas that are lumped together as the Third World. South America – strong influence from colonial powers which established Catholicism in the area; encroached upon by evangelical Christianity; limited international conflict. Sub-Saharan Africa – wide array of cultures; Catholicism spreading more in recent post-colonial years; in direct conflict with Islam; continued deep poverty. Indian Subcontinent – old Catholic tradition; Anglican colonialism; home of Hinduism and Buddhism; recent prosperity affecting culture. China and East Asia – state oppression resulting in an underground church movement.

                Why would you think that the cardinals of these areas could be lumped together as having a lot in common? Even assuming that we’re severely limited to our own cultural experiences or race, what makes you think that a Nigerian = a Brazilian in any sense?Report

              3. In the sense that they’re likely to be more doctrinally conservative than a European. This tends to be the case. It is well known among anyone who pays any attention to the politics within the Roman Catholic Church. I’m not sure why you get so upset and start ranting about black people having big penises, but that’s on you, dawg.Report

              4. Pinky – your statement only makes sense if we assume that personal experience has no bearing at all. And of course that was completely proven when JPII spent zero time in his papacy worrying about communism in Poland. (insert rolling eyes here)Report

              5. Roll your eyes if you want to. The “average” Third-World cardinal has more points of belief in common with the average cardinal than with the average Third-Worlder.Report

              6. Among Anglicans, the hierarchy in the Third World is measurably more conservative than in Europe or the US. Why is it invalid to suspect the same would be true of Catholics?Report

              1. I should write a post on how I went from growing up in a conservative household to being what’s lately termed a bleeding heart libertarian.

                As a cypher, though, “Kentucky” just about does the trick.Report

  10. I was always surprised that they gave it to Ratzinger in the first place. He was pretty good on that show, but he never did much afterwards, and I’d have probably picked the guy who played Norm, though maybe he was too overweight for the job.

    Also, will it. be sad tomsee the retired pope walking around in his street clothes, sitting in coffee shops (old people ones that look more like diners) for hours on end? Its like if Gandalf retired and was hanging out by the pool without his magical staff and beard.Report

  12. Actually, I do think the concept of the pope retiring may harm the image of the church in some small way. I don’t think most people see the pope as a figure who has a lot of important jobs (overseeing meetings, writing speeches, writing political and philosophical documents, adjudicating disputes, acting as a judge) even he is such a figure, but rather as a figure who becomes imbued with some special quality: a connection to God, some special importance in his eyes, or something like that. Well you can give up a job because it is too hard, but it is really unclear if you can or should give up some magical quality. And if the special relationship with God exists and someone else can help you with the tasks of being Pope, isn’t it better to not resign. It’s not a big deal, but Ratzinger is making the office of Pope seem more like a job and less like some special life commitment or magical spiritual manifestation that matters more than the politics and day to day running of the Vatican.Report

    1. Yeah, I was kinda thinking something like this too.

      He said that he wasn’t able to keep up with his duties and, seriously, I totally appreciate that but the most important duty the Pope has is to just *BE*. The fact that he’s sitting there in that chair wearing that outfit accomplishes the majority (perhaps even the overwhelming majority) of his duties to us all (even the atheists).

      Dying in office is what Popes *DO*. And if he has entered his dotage? Show him waving to the people until he can no longer wave. When he can no longer wave, keep him in bed and explain that he is well but very tired. When he dies? *THEN* you get a new one.

      Retire. Pah.Report

      2. Seriously? If he retires from the active life of being Pope to a quiet life of spiritual contemplation, I think that would be awesome.

        If he becomes Dick Cheney, saying snarky things about the new Pope, put the Church out of its misery now.Report

  13. There is clearly only one candidate for Pope who can unite the church and those outside it. I refer of course to Father Dougal McGuire.Report

  15. You dismiss the prophecy because Benedict doesn’t seem to fit it, as if there were only one Pope in the world. You forgot the Coptic Pope of Alexandria. Pope Shenouda III died less than a year ago. His skin was more olive-colored, and he was known for extending the olive branch of ecumenism.

    Coincidence? Fnord.Report

  16. I’ve read that people can look at the last line:

    “In the final persecution of the Holy Roman Church…”

    and read ‘the final persecution’ not as during the 112th Pope. It could be interpreted that Malachy prophesied UP TO 112 but there could be many more after the 112th. And when the last pope does come around, in some unmentioned time in the future, long after the 112th pope, it would be “Peter The Roman.” This Peter could be the 113th pope, or the 213th pope.

    Of course, The cardinals who go to Rome to vote on the new Pope (called the papal conclave) have only one rule to follow when it comes to electing the new pope: the person must be a baptized male. I think there’s a fairly good chance of there being at least one Peter. He doesn’t have to be from Rome. If he’s elected, he’ll be Pope which also means “Bishop of Rome” – and that seems like enough to say it matches with “Peter the Roman”. Who’s to say there hasn’t been an on-going attempt to keep pope choices in line with the prophecies? The cardinals have access to the list and can use it to direct their choices. Isn’t that more probable than someone centuries ago predicting all this?Report

    1. But most probable of all is that any relationship between actual elected popes and the list is purely coincidental (which can be spun into a narrative by a proponent of the prophecies, like any good superstition or conspiracy theory).

      Or at least, that’s what they want you to think. Fnord.Report

    2. Well, any pope can be described as Peter of Rome.

      “In the final persecution of the Holy Roman Church there will reign Peter the Roman, who will feed his flock amid many tribulations, after which the seven-hilled city will be destroyed and the dreadful Judge will judge the people.” That pretty much sums up the Church as it sees itself.Report

Comments are closed.

Related Stories

On Ad Hominems Part 1: The Messy World

gabriel conroy August 7, 2016 76

The Pain of Tradition

Mike Dwyer November 25, 2015 13
johndaquan

The Montauk Catamaran Company Chronicles 10/23/15: Well begun is half done…?

David Ryan October 23, 2015 5

You may have missed

France

Crazy Aunt France

Issac Faulk April 18, 2025
Rosemary

Easter with Family and Getting the Lamb Right

Ben Sears April 18, 2025
mashie

Holing a Mashie Shot

Clare Briggs April 17, 2025
triumphantreturn

Weekend Plans Post: Fell For It Again

Jaybird April 17, 2025