veronica d in reply to veronica d says:

@kazzy — Let me add, literally the first thing I said in my first post in this thread was this: men are not lazy in general. Men make significant contributions, but not so much in areas that code as “domestic.”

I mean, this is the lingering reality of long-term sexism that has not been stamped out. Men are active in the public sphere. Women are passive and domestic. Men make history. Women stand behind their man.

This is not reality, but it is believed, and it shapes our lives, how our actions are interpreted, how value is assigned to our labor, and so on. It still carries on today, where women get to nurture, while men engage.

Which fine. But what if we don’t want to nurture?

Men gonna men. Or something. I dunno. Be happy with your shorter lifespans or some shit.

Gah!Report

veronica d in reply to Kazzy says:

@kazzy — I don’t know what to tell you. If you claim that men have different tools for social connectivity that work in other ways, then what are those ways? Are they valued? By whom? How do they work?

I mean, I know men who dislike sports and other “male bonding” stuff, and who in fact are very lonely. I mean, I’m thinking of a few specific guys.

And yeah, anecdotes ain’t data, but I know a bunch of these guys, and it does seem to be a point in nerd-culture-space without an obvious female equivalent.

Funny thing, a number of these men actually envy women and (in fact) feminism, since we have better tools to deal with this stuff.

So anyway. I don’t know what to tell you. These particular men — I mean, they’re my friends. (So yeah, selection bias), and they have fairly complicated relationship with feminism. My point is, the guys don’t undervalue emotional labor. They wish they could do it.

Note: back before the trans thing, I was one of these guys. It’s how I can be their friend, cuz I fucking get it.

It’s so much easier as a woman. OMG.

But I also know a number of women, typically heterosexual women, who are very resentful of the men in their lives, because the men lack these tools, and furthermore expect the women to provide these tools — plus who seem willing to “go to seed” if they are not provided. Anyway, it comes off as a kind of laziness. Many women are fed up. It’s like, these guys want their wife to be mommy-part-two.

This seems true to me. I’ve been in too many houses and seen it play out in too many ways. Again and again. A ton has been written about the woman who works full time and is also the “housewife,” to a man who works full time and expects to take his shoes off and settle each night in his “mancave.” He can watch Breaking Bad reruns and do not much else. Anything else would be “woman’s work.”

Blah! Fuck that shit. Not for me.

So these women — yeah, their choice. They could leave the fuckers. They could build the wall, demand payment. What-evs. Did you read the article I linked? Those women have a right to their own time and attention.

But isn’t that kind of a shitty choice? Do you like that kind of choice? If your wife felt that way — not saying she does, or whatever, I mean this hypothetically — but anyway, would you want to be that guy?

I assume not. So what the fuck are you arguing?Report

veronica d in reply to Kazzy says:

So what are these methods of “social connections” that men use, that women do not, and that are broadly undervalued by society? Get specific. Let’s talk about it, cuz if men are getting a raw deal we should know.

It’s not that men and women do different things, but that the things we do are valued differently, and “social connectivity” has clear value. That is the statement. Do you disagree with it?

Say the wife always arranges travel, family time, visits with extended family, and so on — and in fact this seems to be a common situation. So what happens if she stops?

Does he pick up the slack? Or not? What happens if he does not?

If she asks that he help, since she finds the work tedious but valuable, and he refuses, what should she do?

Is there a point where things become unfair?

Many women say, yes, there is a point where it is unfair, and they get stuck with it a lot, and he’d just “go to seed” if she didn’t step up —

— and here is where we insert the analogy to domestic chores, because it is the same pattern, and in fact I think it is a member of the same species: unpleasant domestic work falling to women, in a situation where they both work full-time.

You say that maybe he is doing other stuff. Okay, maybe he is. But what? Is it valuable? Has he negotiated with his partner, found a fair balance of labor? Is she aware of his work?

If this is a thing, then why are men not talking about it?

I mean, every relationship is different, but I hear this a lot from women, and no, they don’t think it is a fair balance of labor, so what do you think these women are missing?

Or could you maybe entertain the idea that these women are correct, and that this is fairly common, and that’s is taxing for women?

How do we know it is taxing? Because women say it is. They say, “Hey, I end up having to do all the social planning and I complain but he won’t change, and if I stop doing it, he just sits around.”

Which, blah!

And here I mention the social science — which look, I collect a lot of links to feminist research, and thus “men’s issues” are not my thing. Anyway, the research is there. I’ve seen it. The point is, men do suffer more than women, and many who study this point to lack of social connectivity in men. Like, the point is, this is really a thing. Likewise, I’ve heard this issue mentioned as a reason for the difference in life expectancy between married and unmarried men.

Which, social science is always a bit sketchy. I’m sure it’s all very ambiguous, but all I can say is anecdotally it seems to be true. There are a lot of lonely, disconnected men out there.

And what is preventing them from just doing what women do?

The takeaway: this kind of “social connectivity” work exists. Women do it more. It matters. Furthermore, many of us don’t like doing it. We feel like we are undervalued, taken for granted.

Cuz we fucking are. In fact, you’re part of the problem.Report