A Semi-Short Explainer of Presidential Immunity Decision

Em Carpenter

Em was one of those argumentative children who was sarcastically encouraged to become a lawyer, so she did. She is a proud life-long West Virginian, and, paradoxically, a liberal. In addition to writing about society, politics and culture, she enjoys cooking, podcasts, reading, and pretending to be a runner. She will correct your grammar. You can find her on Twitter.

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69 Responses

  1. Philip H
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    says:

    This also probably tears down the classified documents case.

    Elections have consequences, and this is the consequence of 40+ years of hard driving politics by the GOP; politics which included packing the federal judiciary with people aligned to their cause.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to Philip H
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      says:

      “This also probably tears down the classified documents case.”

      Why? Even though it’s within a President’s remit to administratively declassify intelligence documents, there’s still a procedure for that, you can’t just do it without telling anyone else. And if Trump issued an Executive Order saying “yeah I can”, he certainly didn’t make that known to anyone.Report

    • Em Carpenter in reply to Philip H
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      says:

      He was no longer president when he took them, as far as I recall? I could be wrong. If he wasn’t, then it was not an official act.Report

      • Philip H in reply to Em Carpenter
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        says:

        They were packed in the WH before his departure. Handling classified documents is a Presidential duty. And lets be real, Cannon is trying everything she can not to bring him to trial.Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H
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          says:

          Cannon is the problem with that case, not the Supremes.Report

          • Burt Likko in reply to Dark Matter
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            says:

            …So far. Give it time and the Six Mandarins will provide such cover as Judge Cannon’s dilatory case management does not, in the event that Trump is not re-elected and orders the prosecution of the case against himself ended.

            Which, as we now know, would be an official act of the core powers of his office, beyond the ability of Congress or the Courts to gainsay.

            IIRC Trump took them when he was still President, and retained them after his term expired under… some sort of claim that they were his personal papers? Unclear what the claim is as that sort of shifted along with how many of them there were.Report

            • DensityDuck in reply to Burt Likko
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              says:

              He might be able to wriggle out of the jam by claiming that they were “personal memoirs”, but if they were still marked as classified then it was illegal for him to show them to anyone.Report

    • Michael Siegel in reply to Philip H
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      says:

      He hid from the National Archives, left them sitting out and shared them with uncleared people, in tape, after he was President.Report

      • Philip H in reply to Michael Siegel
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        says:

        Oh I know – but the immunity decision as written opens many, many cans of worms that will require significant litigation to resolve. SCOTUS has done itself no favors in workload reduction if that was their objective.Report

  2. DensityDuck
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    says:

    “Roberts writes that Trump’s attempts to pressure the DOJ and the attorney general to investigate election fraud, and threatening to fire the latter, is absolutely immune from criminal prosecution because of the president’s “conclusive and preclusive” constitutional authority to remove appointees.”

    Which is exactly how I expected this whole thing was gonna go. It’ll be found, through extensive testimony and analysis, that Trump did not actually say any illegal words, or actually order anyone to do an illegal thing. “Suggesting” that a recount could “maybe” find a different result isn’t illegal, nor is angrily threatening to fire someone who doesn’t do his job (said job being “recount the votes if the President tells you to”.) “Well we all knew what he REALLY meant” yeah sure but criminal court doesn’t work that way, you don’t get to convict people based on What We All Knew He Really Meant, there is an extensive literature both legal and popular about why that’s a bad thing to do.Report

    • Philip H in reply to DensityDuck
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      says:

      Except that’s how mafia cases work.

      And calling a secretary of state and asking him to “find” 11,000 more votes isn’t asking about investigating fraud. Its asking to create fraud.Report

    • Kazzy in reply to DensityDuck
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      says:

      “said job being “recount the votes if the President tells you to”.

      Is that actually someone’s job? Serious question.

      When I read Em’s summary of the five allegations against Trump, several of them strike me as clearly not the province — official or otherwise — of the President.

      We’re constantly told that the Electoral College and several other aspects of our vote for President — including the myriad laws and voting procedures in each state — are because of federalism, specifically that while the election is ultimately intended to decide on a President, in reality each state is tasked with choosing a slate of electors who will then go to the Electoral College and that is where a President will be chosing.

      Does the President have any official role in individual state’s handling of their elector’s selection? It feels like everything I — an admitted layman on all these matters — have ever been told is that, no, those decisions and processes are left up to the states. So any involvement by Trump would have been outside his official role as President.

      Do I have any of that wrong?

      Now… if he didn’t actually engage in acts but merely words… “Sure would be nice if THOSE folks over there were your electors and not THESE folks over here…” then maybe he didn’t actually engage in a criminal act. But by what Constitutional authority does the President have a role in states choosing their electors?Report

      • DensityDuck in reply to Kazzy
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        says:

        “We’re constantly told that the Electoral College and several other aspects of our vote for President — including the myriad laws and voting procedures in each state — are because of federalism”

        Yes honey, we know, you’re still mad that she won the popular vote in 2016 but didn’t get to be President, I think it’s time you took a deep breath and settled yourself about that.

        “Does the President have any official role in individual state’s handling of their elector’s selection? ”

        Maybe? Probably not. Is it illegal for him to ask about it? Not “well it’s improper,” not “well he clearly had an agenda“, not “it’s awful threatening“, not “it’s beyond his authority“. Is it felony-crime ILLEGAL? Because if you want a felony conviction, that’s what you need to have.Report

        • Philip H in reply to DensityDuck
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          says:

          “What I want to do is this. I just want to find, uh, 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state.”

          Reads like a solicitation to commit election fraud from out here in the cheap seats, which is indeed illegal.Report

          • DensityDuck in reply to Philip H
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            says:

            Brother, I recognize that you have a story you very much want to be true, but if you want to secure a criminal conviction you need more than someone saying that he wants to do something. You need Trump actually saying “change the vote totals”.Report

            • CJColucci in reply to DensityDuck
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              says:

              No. Not for solicitation.Report

            • Philip H in reply to DensityDuck
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              says:

              You clearly watch too much crime drama TV. Telling the Secretary of State of Georgia to find 11,000 is a criminal action because it’s soliciting the secretary of state to break the law because finding that many votes means inventing that many votes.

              I know YOU want it to be true that all the pols are ll equally bad, but that’s just not so.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to Philip H
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                says:

                “Telling the Secretary of State of Georgia to find 11,000 is a criminal action because it’s soliciting the secretary of state to break the law”

                He didn’t say to do it. He didn’t say those words. He did not. You keep insisting that “sort of like” is the same as “did”, and it’s not true.

                This case is not the one that will get Donald Trump. You need to stop making up comforting fantasies where it does.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to DensityDuck
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                says:

                You keep saying that. Repetition doesn’t make it true.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to CJColucci
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                says:

                Can you provide a case where the entirety of the criminal act was saying “hey, could you maybe do something about this”?

                Or is this another one of those deals where you have time to comment but somehow no time to back it up and we should Just Trust You That You’re Right?Report

        • Kazzy in reply to DensityDuck
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          says:

          Huh?

          Why are you talking about Hillary? I’m not talking about Hillary.

          Why do the polls in THIS state stay open until 8 and in THAT state stay open until 10? Federalism. Each state conducts its own election to identify electors.

          Why does this state require photo ID and that state doesn’t? Federalism. Each state conducts its own election to identify electors.

          Why can ex-felons vote in this state but not that state? Federalism. Each state conducts its own election to identify electors.

          So… is that all true? It seems to me it is.

          And if all that is true, it would seem to me that the individual state elections have zero to do with the sitting President or any other federal official. Is that true? Or is there some OFFICIAL role POTUS has in Georgia or Nevada or New York’s process of choosing electors? That’s what I’m asking.

          If the answer is… POTUS has no official rule, then we look at his actions and determine if they were criminal.

          If the answer is… POTUS does have an official role, then I guess he can just go ham, baby.

          But… if YOU wanna talk about Hillary, I won’t stop ya.Report

          • DavidTC in reply to Kazzy
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            says:

            Who actually answer your question, no, the president has literally no official role in any part of the presidential election whatsoever. Zero role.

            Not just of him, but of the entire executive… Hell, thanks to the conservative lawsuits, the DOJ doesn’t even have a place to decide where voting regulations are allowable or not preemptively.

            The vice president has a purely ceremonial role as president of the sentence but that’s explicitly not an executive branch function.

            Of course, the Court trying to excuse every aspect of Trump’s behavior will assert that it is part of his job to communicate with the executive of various states, just like they decided it was part of his job to communicate with various department heads, and nothing he did as in those communications can be construed as illegal or used as evidence of a crime.Report

  3. CJColucci
    Ignored
    says:

    Em, I’ve been too busy to do a deep dive into the decision, but after a quick review I asked myself where in the Constitution the majority found a basis for their free-wheeling policy argument. I notice you didn’t cite them citing anything. Did you not see anything either?Report

  4. InMD
    Ignored
    says:

    A more principled scotus wouldn’t have taken this case. This reads almost like an advisory opinion on a matter not yet ripe for review. Of the majority at least Barrett sort of edges around the factual realities of the case. But now we have this bizarre precedent that seems to suggest a president can attempt to thwart a constitutional process as long as they don’t actually succeed in doing it and can dress it up as some sort of act that could hypothetically be in the scope of their official actions. And I guess if at some point one does succeed in doing it we won’t have to worry about any of this constitutional mumbo jumbo anymore anyway.Report

    • Mike Schilling in reply to InMD
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      says:

      A more principled scotus wouldn’t have decided the 2000 election, either. At least in those days when they made a purely partisan decision they were embarrassed about it.Report

    • DavidTC in reply to InMD
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      says:

      There is absolutely nothing in that decision that requires the thwarting of the constitutional process to fail.

      Which means what Trump did would have been legal even if the coup did succeed.Report

    • Koz in reply to InMD
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      says:

      A more principled scotus wouldn’t have taken this case. This reads almost like an advisory opinion on a matter not yet ripe for review.

      No, CJ Roberts is right on this one. Jack Smith is trying to prosecute Trump regarding conduct for which Trump is presumptively immune from prosecution. In order to defeat Trump’s presumptive immunity, Jack Smith (or some other prosecutor) has to win a finding that the conduct at issue is not part of Trump’s exercise of the office.

      Jack Smith has not won any such finding, or even made an attempt to that end.

      There’s no way Trump can be prosecuted until that happens, and there’s nothing more that needs to happen before the Supreme Court issues a timely opinion.Report

      • InMD in reply to Koz
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        says:

        Yes I understand what they said. The problem is that they said it without letting the facts be determined by the trial court and now we have a precedent that reads like the federalist society playing ‘what ifs’ over bong hits in a dorm room. What if Trump didn’t do the things he seems to have been doing? After all the president has to talk to a lot of people and he can’t be in trouble just for that!Report

  5. Slade the Leveller
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    says:

    We have Nixon v. Fitzgerald to blame for this. The idea that officeholders should be free of the worry that their decisions may have adverse consequences down the road is one that is antithetical to the ideals of a free people. Public servants should absolutely be concerned their actions might land them in court, and possibly prison. We have set someone in this country above the law.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Slade the Leveller
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      says:

      Like so many other things in the last 5-6 years, this is really just a certain set of people finally saying the quiet parts outloud.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to Slade the Leveller
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      says:

      “The idea that officeholders should be free of the worry that their decisions may have adverse consequences down the road is one that is antithetical to the ideals of a free people.”

      Does this mean we can prosecute Bill Clinton for Operation Infinite Reach?Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to DensityDuck
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        says:

        Yes, please proceed.Report

      • DensityDuck in reply to DensityDuck
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        says:

        ooh, or we could go after Obama for ordering the IRS to audit conservative political organizations more stringently and at a higher rate than liberal political organizations.Report

        • Chip Daniels in reply to DensityDuck
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          says:

          Absolutely! Please, by all means, do this.Report

        • Philip H in reply to DensityDuck
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          says:

          You’d be VERY hard pressed to do so.

          The Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration reviewed a decade of IRS handling of political organizations. It found that scores of liberal groups were subject to the same heavy scrutiny that conservative groups faced. This merely certified what had been perfectly clear all along. Within months of the “targeting scandal” breaking, evidence was already available to show that the IRS was giving political activists on the left the same treatment as those on the right. (The New York Times reported on this as early as June 2013.) Subsequent hearings turned up no evidence Obama had ordered the IRS to target conservatives because the IRS did not in fact target conservatives. The fact some conservatives had a hard time dealing with the IRS did not prove the IRS is targeting conservatives any more than some conservatives having a hard time renewing their driver’s licenses would prove the DMV is targeting conservatives.

          And yet the scandal has lived on and on in the conservative mind. House Republicans have demanded the impeachment of the IRS commissioner; The House Republicans’ website continues to insist “The American people deserve answers”; last month, Republicans expressed outrage that the Department of Justice declined to prosecute former IRS official Lois Lerner, whose name has become a right-wing trigger-phrase akin to “Benghazi.”

          https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2017/10/debunked-irs-scandal-shows-theres-no-sane-wing-of-the-gop.htmlReport

          • DavidTC in reply to Philip H
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            says:

            Nonononono! Don’t try to discourage this! We want them to actually taking their claims to a court, where direct lies tend to get you thrown in jail.

            This is what killed all the election lies nonsense. They actually had to show up in court, and literally nothing they said was true, and they weren’t even willing to repeat it in court

            We want conservatives to start doing this for everything!!! Please, walk into a court with your evidence, show a judge under penalty of perjury! We are standing right there ready to arrest Obama!Report

        • DavidTC in reply to DensityDuck
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          says:

          Please, by all means, drag that one into court, where people will be required to state, on the record, the things that actually happened there, instead of the stuff that conservatives made up.

          For example, that this involved Obama in any manner. Or was anything other than the IRS creating some really stupid group of guidelines that didn’t deliberately targeted either side, in an attempt to find political groups.

          In fact, instead of a bunch of nonsense gibberish showboating in public by biased lunatics lying, AKA Congressional hearings, can we please start having actual trials where you can’t lie to the judge? It would be a really welcome relief.

          Trials are, after all, how the nonsensical election claims died.Report

          • DensityDuck in reply to DavidTC
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            says:

            *shrug* it’s got as much actual evidence as “Trump issued illegal orders to change the vote” did.Report

            • DavidTC in reply to DensityDuck
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              says:

              You mean the phone call to the Georgia Secretary of State that was fully recorded? Those were not ‘orders’, even Trump seems aware that he is not able to give orders to state governors, they were just asking someone to commit election fraud, a thing which itself is actually a crime in Georgia.

              Or do you mean the orders given to the Department of Justice to lie about voter fraud and ask them to put pressure on Congress to not certify results using those lies? Because those were orders, but they were not orders to change a vote, they were orders to get the government to lie about the vote that that already happened.

              It’s almost like you don’t know any actual details about this. Like you’ve conflated a bunch of different crimes that Trump has committed.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to DavidTC
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                says:

                When a hooker is prosecuted for solicitation it’s no defense that the prospective client didn’t go for it. And it’s no defense that the hooker merely asked, rather than ordered, the prospective client to pay her for sex.Report

      • Slade the Leveller in reply to DensityDuck
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        says:

        Honestly, we should just toss all ex-presidents in the clink for a few years after they leave office. You know they probably did something against the law.

        We should take a page from South Korea, which doesn’t seem to have any compunction about prosecuting former presidents. https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/04/17/south-korea-president-prosecutions-qa-00152630Report

    • James K in reply to Slade the Leveller
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      says:

      It’s notable that the Roman Republic, which fell because it didn’t restrain its executive enough, understood that post-office prosecution was an important accountability mechanism for former officials.Report

      • Burt Likko in reply to James K
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        says:

        Notable that the collapse of the Republic is generally thought to have reached a decisive point of no return when one politician used force to illegally hang on to power after his term of office expired while he feared prosecution for flagrant abuses of power for personal gain committed while in office. And that the Republic was purportedly “restored” for public consumption but not as a political reality, and the political reality of belying that “restoration” was not particularly well concealed.

        The parallels aren’t exact, of course. But damn, history rhymes.Report

    • Koz in reply to Slade the Leveller
      Ignored
      says:

      The idea that officeholders should be free of the worry that their decisions may have adverse consequences down the road is one that is antithetical to the ideals of a free people. Public servants should absolutely be concerned their actions might land them in court, and possibly prison.

      Yeah yeah.

      In order to maintain the capacity in any context to act as a nation with one clear intent, the United States (or any other country really) must have an executive with the responsibility to define and implement that intention.

      And for the same reason that executive (in our case, the President) must have the the freedom to act according to his own judgment when acting in his official capacity. That’s why, at least some of the time, he is immune from prosecution. That’s what we found out on Monday.

      But, in the context of your comment, it doesn’t have to be that way. We don’t have to be a nation-state, we don’t have to act with one intent, we can be just a hodgepodge of people who live here. But whatever can be said in favor of that, it is not the design of the United States laid out in the Constitution.

      It’s also worth mentioning for those who care, that the libs are or ought be invested in the unity of the United States at least as much as we are (maybe more). Certainly most libs favor the unity of the federal government in terms of creating and maintaining things like Medicare or the EPA.

      Just because this decision benefits Trump doesn’t at all mean it’s the wrong decision.Report

      • Slade the Leveller in reply to Koz
        Ignored
        says:

        In order to maintain the capacity in any context to act as a nation with one clear intent, the United States (or any other country really) must have an executive with the responsibility to define and implement that intention.

        And for the same reason that executive (in our case, the President) must have the the freedom to act according to his own judgment when acting in his official capacity. That’s why, at least some of the time, he is immune from prosecution. That’s what we found out on Monday.

        This does not address the need for an executive to be free of consequences. The president is surrounded by dozens of advisors, some of whom are well-versed in the law. Is the president of the United States really making any snap decisions that require immunity from consequences?

        (I was just as outraged when Obama droned an American citizen, for the record.)Report

      • DavidTC in reply to Koz
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        says:

        The court basically said that he is immune from prosecution at all times, because they include ‘literally any orders to his department heads’ as, itself, part of his official duties as president.

        That is literally the way the president does absolutely everything, there is nothing else that he accomplishes in any manner that isn’t that. The only thing that that actually excludes is if the president personally pulls a gun on someone and shoots… It doesn’t even exclude if he orders the secret service to shoot someone.

        This is well above any immunity given to any other official in any other capacity.Report

        • DavidTC in reply to DavidTC
          Ignored
          says:

          Oh, and it’s not just that the communications are part of his official duties and can’t be prosecuted.

          They can’t even be used as evidence of a crime that the president himself is personally committing. Which is well past any actual logic of ‘the president has to be able to act freely’… He has to be able to give orders freely without concern that they will be used to implicate him in actual crimes he has been charged with? What?

          So he may not be allowed to pull out a gun and shoot someone directly, but if he _does_ do that, he can order the courts to tell him where the witnesses are, show up and shoot the witnesses, and those orders cannot be used as evidence of murder and witness tampering.Report

        • Pinky in reply to DavidTC
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          says:

          I haven’t read much about the opinion, but it looks like you’re the only one making that claim about its scope.Report

        • Koz in reply to DavidTC
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          says:

          The court basically said that he is immune from prosecution at all times, because they include ‘literally any orders to his department heads’ as, itself, part of his official duties as president.

          No, I think you might be overlooking the part about the difference between absolute immunity and presumptive immunity.

          Trump talking to department heads is presumptively immune from prosecution. There is, at least according to Trump v US, the possibility that the presumption can be overcome.Report

  6. LeeEsq
    Ignored
    says:

    TL/DR: The Supreme Court laid out the ground work for a dictatorship.Report

  7. James K
    Ignored
    says:

    Thanks for the Explanation Em. From my perspective, The Appeals Court was clearly correct – a government official’s power is defined by the law – be it common, statutory or constitution. Therefore an illegal act cannot be an official act. If Trump wants to claim that holding him accountable represents an as-applied constitutional violation, let him try that argument on appeal.Report

  8. Koz
    Ignored
    says:

    From my perspective, The Appeals Court was clearly correct – a government official’s power is defined by the law – be it common, statutory or constitution. Therefore an illegal act cannot be an official act. If Trump wants to claim that holding him accountable represents an as-applied constitutional violation, let him try that argument on appeal.

    No no. This is exactly where CJ Roberts sez, “Pay attention lib, you might just learn something.”

    In the text of the Constitution and design of our governance emanating from it, the President has specific roles and responsibilities that other people don’t have. Eg he is supposed to faithfully execute the laws, issue letters of marque and reprisal, establish post offices, whatever.

    In fact, letters of marque and reprisal is a great example. Issuing one is almost certainly a crime if done by anybody other than the President. Therefore, for the President to be the President, anybody who purports to prosecute the (former) President for crimes supposedly unrelated to the legitimate exercise of his office, must show, a priori that the conduct at issue is not an official act of his office.

    Jack Smith has shown no such thing.Report

    • James K in reply to Koz
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      says:

      No, that’s insane.

      If the President has the explicit constitutional power to do a thing, then it can’t be a crime per se to do it. The idea that the President has to me made immune to prosecution to exercise the standard powers of office is an argument so idiotic I can’t credit anyone actually believes it.

      Here’s an example of why this is a problem. Let’s stick with Letters of Marque sicne you brought it up. What if a President accepted a bribe to give a letter of Marque to someone? That would be a crime, right? Last I checked bribery was illegal. But under this ruling the President would be able to argue that issue Letters of Marque was an official power an therefore they can’t ever be prosecuted for it. And if the prosecution wanted to try argue otherwise, they wouldn’t be allowed to enter the issuing of the Letter of Marque into evidence, making it almost impossible to prove there was a quid pro quo.

      Legal powers can be used in illegal ways, in fact that’s the entire risk represented by abuse of office. And the Supreme Court has rendered such prosecutions nearly impossible. And to be frank, if it were a Democrat violating the law I very much doubt you’d have trouble seeing that.Report

      • DensityDuck in reply to James K
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        says:

        “What if a President accepted a bribe to give a letter of Marque to someone? That would be a crime, right? Last I checked bribery was illegal. But under this ruling the President would be able to argue that issue Letters of Marque was an official power an therefore they can’t ever be prosecuted for it.”

        He couldn’t be prosecuted for issuing the Letter of Marque, but he could be prosecuted for taking a bribe, and the court case would not be permitted to consider “a Letter of Marque was issued” as evidence of criminality. (as in, “a Letter of Marque was issued, which is an extremely uncommon thing to do, therefore something criminal must have happened” would not be a permissible argument.)

        Like, the important thing is that the President took a bribe, and “taking a bribe to let someone get a photo op in the Oval Office” is considered exactly as much of a crime as “taking a bribe to broker a deal to sell weapons to Saudi Arabia”.Report

      • Koz in reply to James K
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        says:

        Legal powers can be used in illegal ways, in fact that’s the entire risk represented by abuse of office. And the Supreme Court has rendered such prosecutions nearly impossible.

        Certainly more difficult than Demos want in Trump’s case. though maybe not impossible. The point being that a hypothetical (or concrete) prosecution is not the holy of holies. There are other priorities, higher ones in this case, for what seems to me to be obvious reasons.

        And to be frank, if it were a Democrat violating the law I very much doubt you’d have trouble seeing that.

        That’s right, I wouldn’t and I don’t. President Biden should obey the law, especially as it pertains to collecting payments for student loans and enforcing our immigration, border security and visa policies.

        The law, and the Constitution ought to be a constraint on all actors of our system. And to a large extent they were for most of our history. Lib has created a world where it’s okay if you can get away with it, especially as it pertains to Demo Presidents evading, circumventing or defying Congress.

        The idea of criminally prosecuting the presumably former President, while it’s always been at least theoretically possible, was never intended to be the main guardrail for us anyway.Report

    • Slade the Leveller in reply to Koz
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      says:

      Under the Constitution, Congress alone has the power to issue a letter of marque.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Koz
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      says:

      Jack Smith has not been allowed to go to trial and present evidence yet. He did successfully obtain a lawful indictment – two actually. So the longer it takes to get to court the less and less your argument holds.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to Koz
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      says:

      “anybody who purports to prosecute the (former) President for crimes supposedly unrelated to the legitimate exercise of his office, must show, a priori that the conduct at issue is not an official act of his office.”

      Which is the whole point of this, really; it’s to give Trump another six months to fart around in court, assuming that he’s going to win the election and then on January 21 2025 pardon himself for everything.Report

  9. Koz
    Ignored
    says:

    Finally, since I don’t think anybody else has mentioned it, and unanticipated by me at least, that one plausible outcome of Trump v US is that the Bragg NY guilty verdict will be thrown out.

    In fact, the judge in the case has already pushed back the sentencing date based on the propensity of the judicial system to overturn the guilty verdict before sentencing happens.

    Part of the majority decision in Trump was that (former) Presidents are immune from prosecution for their official acts, _and_ furthermore official acts of the President can’t be entered as evidence against him in _any_ criminal case. Well, the Bragg team did just that. And in a letter from Trumps lawyers to the judge, Trump’s lawyer serendipitously cites an assertion from the prosecution team that the now-tainted “evidence” was “devastating” to Mr Trump’s defense (LOL!! libs!).

    Well, what happens now? In any other case, the prosecution could hope to save the day based on an argument of harmless error in appeals court. And that is still a thing here.

    But in addition, there’s another wrinkle which I haven’t heard anybody else mention. The theory of harmless error is about the right of a defendant to receive a fair trial. But the framework of Trump v US is not about that. It’s about immunity.

    By admitting the evidence at trial, in the framework of Trump v US Trump has already suffered the irreparable harm he shouldn’t have to suffer. It’d be really funny, to me at least, is that because the harm has already occurred and can’t be mitigated, the conviction stands. It’s a question of first _and last_ impression, which I don’t think you see too many of.

    Btw, none of this is intended to be at all predictive. At this point, the Bragg case is a total crapshoot. I mean, there’s so many things in play at some point the verdict will be vacated. As to how, that’s anybody’s guess.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to Koz
      Ignored
      says:

      This defense of the decision inadvertently tells us why the decision is so outrageous.
      Everyone agrees that paying a pornstar to keep quiet about an affair so as to conceal information from the American public and then falsifying records to conceal that fact is terrible behavior, the sort which we as a citizenry want to discourage if not punish.

      But here you are telling us that this is all protected by the Constitution- Not protected for everyone, only the person who happens to win the Presidency based on that terrible behavior.

      If terrible behavior is protected by the Constitution, of what good is the Constitution? If the guiding document of a republic is used to protect liars and malefactors and shield vital information from the citizens, then such a decision makes a mockery of the very document.Report

  10. Burt Likko
    Ignored
    says:

    If the President cannot be held accountable for violating the law, then what good is the law?

    Why should we bother to have a Congress anymore, if the President can simply do what he wants?

    If the Courts are going to say the President is immune from any consequences for exceeding the law, then why do we have Courts?

    A President ought to fear being held to account for exceeding his authority. A President ought to fear being charged with crimes if he commits crimes. He is, after all, tasked with the faithful execution of the laws. Far better to say that the President lacks power to violate the laws, that no criminal act is ever within the scope of Presidential power.

    I suspect SCOTUS will eventually figure that out… if it’s a Democratic President being indicted for something at some point in the future.Report

    • Glyph in reply to Burt Likko
      Ignored
      says:

      Burt, I can’t POSSIBLY be expected to do my job correctly and efficiently if I have to worry about little niggling details, like whether or not what I’m doing is legal. That’s crazytalk.

      What happened to “ignorance of the law is no excuse”?

      And why would we let the guy who has access to legal-counsel resources we schmoes can only dream of, who should be telling him what’s legal and what’s not, get a pass for being ignorant of the law (let alone INTENTIONALLY violating it)?Report

  11. Paul Meisel
    Ignored
    says:

    Henceforth I will treat all SCOTUS decisions with presumptive contempt.Report

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