How Far Is Too Far In Supporting Ukraine?

Mike Coté

Mike Coté is a writer and podcaster focusing on history, Great Power rivalry, and geopolitics. He has a Master’s degree in European history, and is working on a book about the Anglo-German economic and strategic rivalry before World War I. He writes for National Review, Providence Magazine, and The Federalist, hosts the Rational Policy podcast, and can be found on Twitter @ratlpolicy.

Related Post Roulette

44 Responses

  1. Dark Matter says:

    Ukraine winning takes us over the edge of the universe. It’s possible the Russian empire falls apart, it’s possible Putin stays in charge.

    Having said that, “Putin in charge” probably also means “Russia is still at war with Ukraine” so that implies Russian troops die until Putin’s gov falls.

    What is clear is that we don’t get to pick what happens over the edge of the universe. We need to prepare for Russia falling apart, we also need to prepare for someone worse replacing Putin.Report

    • Burt Likko in reply to Dark Matter says:

      What does Russia falling apart look like?

      Does this current incarnation of Russia fragment further into quarreling mostly-independent oblasts? Does it get a new strongman to replace Putin? Does it become a not-great-but sincere parliamentary democracy like Iraq? Who’s controlling the nukes in each of these scenarios? Who controls trade policy? I’m not sure that there are any other realistic options than these, and my money would be on Putin getting removed as head of state with varying degrees of gentleness and replaced with a different strongman ruling effectively autocratically with a thin outward veneer of democracy, much as what we see there today.

      Most of us are old enough to remember what the Soviet Union falling apart looked like. Promising from a pro-democracy perspective for about a year, and then Boris Yeltsin inevitably fell in the river both literally and figuratively.* And it’s been a kleptocratic autocracy ever since.

      Whether it’s fragmentation, decapitation-and-recapitation, or flawed parliamentary democracy, I don’t see how the corruption goes away, I don’t see a government and culture predicated upon a strong rule of law in the manner of western European or North American democracies.

      * Former mayors of capital cities named Boris seem to wind up not working out well as heads of national government in the long run.Report

      • Dark Matter in reply to Burt Likko says:

        When the USSR fell apart we ended up with 23 or so new countries, many of whom have become NATO members, a few might even be first world now days. I’m counting Poland and the others as “new” countries.

        This may have sucked for Russia itself, but a lot of people stopped living under tyranny and oppression.

        This was a fine outcome, we shouldn’t fear it happening again.Report

        • InMD in reply to Dark Matter says:

          I think in this scenario if the Russian federation fractured you’d end up with a lot of ethnic Russians on the wrong side of new national borders. That’s a recipe for a lot of strife before the dust settles. To give you a sense of how complicated it could potentially be here is an ethnic map of the Russian federation from 2010:

          https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/y6z0zl/ethnic_map_of_russia_2010/

          One of the complicated, and more than a little dark, truths about WW1 and WW2 is that western and central Europe ended up with with national boundaries roughly reflecting the linguistic and ethnic compositions, and it’s no mystery how that happened. The western end of the Warsaw Pact countries were mostly able to follow that pattern based on how the boundaries were set post WW2. However the parallel for Russia is not those countries, and is probably more like Yugoslavia.Report

  2. Chip Daniels says:

    From what I can see, the most realistic goal would be the recovery of all territory seized since the 2022 invasion, with a possible goal of all territory seized since 2014, and then containment of Russia as an aggressor.

    Containment in this context would amount to a new Cold War, where we use a combination of diplomatic and economic tools to deny Russia the possibility of territorial expansion and mischief making around the world.

    The more wild regime change ideas seem to avoid any realistic grasp of what might come next.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      The more wild regime change ideas seem to avoid any realistic grasp of what might come next.

      Much like 5 decades of data disprove the supply side tax cuts spur excessive growth hokum, data since Korea dispels the myth of “successful regime change being imposed. Those still cheering for it are likely immune to such data of course, but we know well how this turns out.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Philip H says:

        What’s interesting to me is how we as a society haven’t really come to terms with the post Cold War order or formed new structures of political understanding.

        By that I mean that the conventional understanding of politics in America that we all grew up with is that Communist regimes were repressive, and capitalist were free.
        Repressive capitalist regimes were generally regarded as aberrations and minor exceptions to the rule, the result of backward underdeveloped nations.

        But the basic framework was that any society where people could choose among different brands of toothpaste would automatically be a society where people could choose among different brands of politicians.

        China and Russia have demolished this assumption. They are examples of modern developed repressive capitalist nations where people are free to choose their toothpaste, but not their government.

        The American people haven’t really developed an understanding of how to regard these nations. We see them as sometimes trading partners, sometimes enemies, some sort of “frenemy” status which shifts depending on the subject or interest.Report

    • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      2014 is seriously important in terms of containing Russia. Leaving them with it leaves Ukraine vulnerable to all sorts of problems.

      Chip: The more wild regime change ideas seem to avoid any realistic grasp of what might come next.

      Very very true. The problem is there’s a good chance we’ll find out anyway. Not because we force Putin to leave but because he’s betting everything on this and he’s going to lose.Report

  3. Damon says:

    Give me a reason why I should give a damn about Ukraine.

    It’s in Russia’s sphere of influence. I see no reason to get significantly involved. We already replaced their gov’t. We do stuff like this in our sphere of influence.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Damon says:

      We have actively invaded a country and claimed it as our own over the objections of its citizens? Really? When?

      So you are fine with Russia invading and occupying any of the former Soviet republics they choose? And then? Where do you expect them to stop?Report

      • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

        With the benefit of historical knowledge, invading Germany and Japan look like the right calls. They fall into the whole “stopping a genocidal expansionistic empire” category.

        The various coups we’ve supported retrospectively look less like good calls.

        What we’re doing in the Ukraine looks a lot more like “opposing genocidal fascism” than it does anything else. My expectation is it will look ethically fine in a hundred years.Report

      • Philip H in reply to Philip H says:

        In precisely none of those cases did we violate a sovereign nation’s borders with our active military in an actual invasion. Not even close. Nor have we ever claimed those nations are part of the US and have no right to exist freely.

        Try againReport

        • Philip H in reply to Philip H says:

          I objected to Iraq. Still do. Precisely because it was based on a lie. Ditto Vietnam.

          And as to WW 2 – the US was attacked at Pearl Harbor. Seems to justify the portion of the war fought against Japan. Kind of like Russia actively crossing Ukraine’s borders with active duty military units last year – and with Russians disguised badly as Ukrainian partisans in 2014.

          Happy to keep this up as long as you are . . .Report

        • Damon in reply to Philip H says:

          Panama?Report

      • Pinky in reply to Philip H says:

        I think the issue we’ve lost track of is what Colin Powell famously stated, that the only land we’ve ever sought is enough to bury our dead. Personally I think you have to ignore Manifest Destiny for that formulation to work, but it’s been a reliable principle during the past hundred years. And we’ve had chances.Report

        • Philip H in reply to Pinky says:

          Russia isn’t seeking land to bury its dead. They are seeking to rebuild the Russian empire through reconquest of a bunch of countries they have never viewed as sovereign. The US has not done that. Certainly not since the first world war.

          Which is my point to Damon.Report

    • Dark Matter in reply to Damon says:

      Our costs are pretty low and the return on investment should be very high.

      The number of boots we have on the ground rounds to zero. We’re giving Ukraine our second rate equipment which we made for, but didn’t use in, the war on terror.

      Russia has done a lot of nasty things over the years, sometimes to us, and this is a good time to stick it to them. All of their neighbors are afraid of them and many have joined Nato because of that.

      Also we learned from WW2 that not opposing a genocidal expansionistic dictator becomes a real problem.

      This is a model for how we can do things in the future. These precision arms Ukraine are using needs direct American support in order to function. We tell them the exact location of “whatever” and they punch in the coordinates. If we don’t want them to blow up [something] then we just won’t tell them.Report

      • North in reply to Dark Matter says:

        Dedollarization: I’ll take “tell us you’re either a delusional krank or a pro-russian troll without saying ‘hey I’m a delusional krank or possibly a Putinista sock puppet!’ for 500 dollars Alex.Report

        • North in reply to North says:

          A curious non-sequitur; I have no idea whatsoever how many doctors exist in America right now. But if one has beef with that number I’d suspect you’d need to take it up with the AMA, not the Fed.

          I’m actually observing that your dedollarization nonsense is, in of itself, utter nonsense and betrays your incoherent or malevolent biases simply by being expressed. States are moving away from using the dollar as a reserve currency eh? To what, pray tell? Yuan? Artificially pegged to the dollar and shackled with capital controls. Rubles? Heheh, they might as well put the dough into subway coupons (at least then you might get a sandwich out of the deal). Euros? Any beef you have with Greenbacks would be double that for Euros but with less dynamic economies and more inflation to boot. You can’t do-dollarize into nothing and there’re no alternatives currently.Report

          • Pinky in reply to North says:

            You should check a data source that you’re willing to trust about South America and the yuan. I’m not saying it’s a good long-term plan for them to do so, but there’s more movement than you might expect.Report

            • North in reply to Pinky says:

              Oh I believe it but some states here and there go on “alternatives to the dollar” kicks periodically and always have (and often end up quietly slinking back or spectacularly losing their shirts). That doesn’t make for a global dedollarization trend.Report

              • North in reply to North says:

                Off the dollar to what? Bitcoin? Gold? Most countries want to use their currencies to buy and sell things or to store value and for those purposes the dollar has been and remains the only game in town at the moment. China has a long way to go before they’ll ever have a hope of being a plausible alternative and they’re virtually the only other game in town.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to North says:

                Allow me to introduce you to my rare store of value, images of cartoon apes…Report

      • Damon in reply to Dark Matter says:

        Just because we pay mercenaries to be our “boots on the ground” doesn’t mean we’re not neck deep in it in other ways.

        Yep, and our involvement has never ever had any negative conspectuses 20 years down the road…Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to Damon says:

          We are absolutely neck deep in all sorts of ways. We’re the payroll master, the armorer, arms supplier, and (importantly for precision weapons) the IT service.

          We’re also a huge cheerleader and have encouraged everyone else to pile on. However they haven’t needed much encouragement. Xenophobic Poland has opened it’s borders to Ukraine’s refugees, “needs Russian fuel to keep it’s economy running” Germany has told Russia to drop dead, neutral Sweden and Finland are joining NATO, and so on.

          The US isn’t playing rogue cop here, it is the consensus of all of the first world nations that Putin has gone full genocidal Hit.ler and should be treated as such. The various companies fleeing Russia and giving up on their investments showcases more of the same.

          But the amount of blood we’ll spend rounds to zero. Ukrainians (and Russians) are doing the dying here.Report

        • Philip H in reply to Damon says:

          Yep, and our involvement has never ever had any negative conspectuses 20 years down the road…

          This isn’t Iraq. Or Afghanistan. Or Vietnam. Or 1960’s South America.Report

    • Slade the Leveller in reply to Damon says:

      SudetenlandReport

    • Brent F in reply to Damon says:

      If you want the US to have the incredibly potent area of alliances and client states it has, leading the effort to support a place like Ukraine trying to get out of an opposed sphere of influence is the cost of being in business.

      America is doing the geopolitical equivalent of using one finger to catch and push back Russia’s best punch. Its the most productive thing the USA has done for its standing in the world since the Wall fell and its doing it for bargain rate prices.Report

      • InMD in reply to Brent F says:

        I think this is the much more realistic way to look at it. I’m rooting for the Ukranians but even if this ends in some muddled, emotionally unsatisfactory compromise it would still be a huge geopolitical win. Russia has already been defanged as a conventional military threat for a generation, and all the US really had to do was donate a bunch of dated kit that was sitting around gathering dust.Report

        • North in reply to InMD says:

          Yup, no denying it. We basically handed off our second string gear and obliterated the military of a rival and the country providing the bodies to do it is GRATEFUL to us. That’s before we even factor in Brent F’s most pertinent point about how it’s doing wonders for our standing.Report

          • North in reply to North says:

            I am assuming the latter part of that word salad is referring to depleted uranium rounds? If so characterizing them as “hot goods” is especially incoherent for you.Report

  4. Chip Daniels says:

    Its amazing to see real live tankie comments in 2023.

    Like, almost word for word what one would have seen in 1956 or 1968.Report

  5. Marchmaine says:

    Sure, this is a pretty easy position to take. The underlying assumption is that Ukraine will build upon it’s successful defense in 2022 and our role will be to prevent over-reach. And that’s true, that’s what our role will be in that scenario. We can root for Ukrainian breakthroughs and a future settlement on favorable terms won on the battlefield. And right now, that’s kinda the prevailing ‘mood’ as the 2023 Offensive is all potential and hope.

    There’s a chance, of course, that the Ukrainian offensive fails and we enter protracted stalemate… in that case, staying the course of materiel and moral support requires little more of us and likely will remain popular.

    The more interesting question that should be asked is, How Far Is Too Far In Supporting Ukraine in 2024 if the Russian/Chinese retooling proves real?

    Are we mentally prepared to pat ourselves on the back for the ‘low cost’ drubbing of Russia’s military that we inflicted via proxy in ’22 and ’23 but then recognize that the low cost strategy – while good when it worked – doesn’t work any more? That’s when the temptation for escalation will *really* begin. How much is too much in this scenario?

    That’s the thing about war… it could go one way, it could go another. I don’t have a crystal ball. We know that offensive operations are harder and more costly than defensive operations, all things being equal. Maybe Russian forces rout; maybe defense in depth with massive artillery support will inflict casualties greater than Ukraine can absorb. Perhaps the offensive, if it stalls, leaves Ukraine exposed to counter-attack; this is a common fact in war.

    I think we have a good grip on how much we’re willing to wager on victory or even stalemate; what’s our betting strategy if the war starts to go poorly?Report

    • Fissler in reply to Marchmaine says:

      The Euros don’t expect the Ukraine to last the year, that’s why their commitments come due in 2024. “Staying the course” is supplying missiles that we don’t have anymore of, to people who use ALL of them in a blind panic.

      I suppose I shouldn’t expect elementary strategy out of someone who thought calling in the National Guard to Congress was a good idea, not an elementary-level mistake borne out of panic.
      Consider: if there was one shooter in the whole mix… what’s standard military doctrine, if he’s holed up in a room?
      Answer: Grenade.

      This is not even touching the potential for hostages — or even the “normal destruction” caused by combat soldiers in an urban environment (“tossing tables on their sides for cover”).

      Do you really want the Pentagon to have to answer why the halls of congress (a structure not built to withstand modern weaponry) fell over, because someone sent in the National Guard?Report

  6. Stormcrow says:

    Fundamental alteration complete. Counteroffensive stalled. America loses the war.

    Now What? We stand as a country, abjectly clowned on by spearchuckers, and now defeated by the Russian drunkards.Report