Thursday Throughput: The Economy of Lockdowns

Michael Siegel

Michael Siegel is an astronomer living in Pennsylvania. He blogs at his own site, and has written a novel.

Related Post Roulette

41 Responses

  1. Philip H says:

    THTH1 –

    It’s vital that we have continue to have these discussions. And it’s incredibly vital that we have them without the certainty that the LA Times headline tried to inject into the debate or the certainty that those responding to it did. We know some stuff. We don’t know everything yet. And science is how we will move to a place of not knowing a bit less.

    As a scientist I agree with this conclusion. Unfortunately, politicians and politicly appointed policy makers never will. They crave certainty because they refuse to accept that its ok to be wrong and change course based on new information. Pundits know this, which is why they so often speak in certain tones about scientifically weak political decisions. For that matter most people don’t deal well with uncertainty, much less real statistical probability. We may learn more through science, but I have zero expectation that it will improve the quality of our discourse on the subject, much less subsequent policy making.Report

  2. Oscar Gordon says:

    ThTh7: See kids, this is why you want to avoid heavy metal poisoning. See how long you live!Report

  3. Saul Degraw says:

    I find it amazing how many Americans freak out about “lockdown” in the United States. The United States had nothing close to a lockdown even in States that took COVID more seriously. There were always exceptions for “essential businesses” because of lobbying and local influence that would have been scoffed at in the rest of the world. No municipality or state in the United States required citizens to only travel within a small radius of their apartment for food shopping and medical appointments with a pass. Spain’s lockdown produced a black market for dog rental so people could be outside for a bit in the early days.

    There was nowhere in the United States that could or even attempted to be like this. At any point during 2020, I could have traveled the entirety of California by foot if I wanted to or I could have traveled to any part of the United States. There were states that requested out of state residents quarantine upon entry but as far as I can tell this was more of a suggestion/beg without enforcement mechanism. When my partner traveled back to Singapore in December 2020, she was escorted to quarantine by government officials at arrival and kept in a hotel room for two weeks. It would have been more if she tested positive.

    Yet the libertarian party still posted a fever dream tweet recently about how “lockdown” was a “trial run.”Report

    • Philip H in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      White people suddenly had the government imposing on the the way black and brown people have always had the government imposed on them. Many of those white people chose to be whiney cowardly snowflakes about it and threaten all manner of horrid civil war-esque responses against their own governments. Its tragic, but it wasn’t nearly as violent as it could have been, which I suspect played a huge role in the seeking if the lest plausible “lockdown” response available.Report

    • Pinky in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      “Lockdown” is an overheated term, but so is “freak out”. It’s reasonable to note that the left has a fondness for top-down approaches. When we’re in a public health crisis that understandably calls for economic and social restrictions, and we’re being told at the same time that institutional racism in police departments is a public health crisis, of course I’m going to notice the similarity in phrasing, and suspect similarly aggressive solutions. I think it was Chip who recently dismissed any limit on government.

      If you want to make a bsdi argument about the right and an inclination toward the use of the military or the police, I think it’s wrong but I’ll listen to the argument and I won’t accuse it of being a freakout.Report

  4. Chip Daniels says:

    Part of the noisiness of trying to analyze Covid responses is that “mask mandate” is not the same as “mask compliance”.
    The outcome doesn’t depend much on what the governor or mayor says, but on what the people actually do. But measuring mask compliance is difficult.Report

  5. Em Carpenter says:

    ThTh9: In another life, I’m better at math and science and I am a paleontologist. I love this stuff.Report

  6. Saul Degraw says:

    Speaking of COVID, the Ohio lottery ploy is apparently working well but a group sees it as discrimination and is suing to stop it. They could use better proofreaders: https://twitter.com/jesseltaylor/status/1397624535583690754?s=20Report

    • Colorado has decided to have a lottery, with five weekly drawings for a million dollars. Under my understanding of the rules — which may be flawed — I make it about a 50/50 bet that all five winners will come from the group of 3 million people who had had at least one shot before the lottery was announced.Report

      • Kazzy in reply to Michael Cain says:

        Do you think that’s a problem? Or just an interesting possible outcome?Report

        • Philip H in reply to Kazzy says:

          I think its a problem if the real aim is to get more people to move from reluctant to vaccinated. paying people who have started the process to finish the process isn’t really as effective IMHO.Report

          • North in reply to Philip H says:

            People are bad at calculating risk AND odds. A vaccine hesitant who is persuadable by a million dollar lottery would never even consider the implications of people who’ve already started the process being eligible.

            Vaccine lotteries are a good idea and they’re not very expensive and have pretty much no down side except for those of us on the left who feel icky about incenting people this way (and such people need to get over it). I think they should be used widely.Report

          • Michael Cain in reply to Philip H says:

            Or paying me, who finished the process weeks ago.Report

  7. LeeEsq says:

    People found the COVID-19 pandemic traumatic but I think many low or medium level white collar workers found the experience quite relaxing. Working at home meant they didn’t have to get up early for the commute to work, could play with their pets during lunch, and not have to deal with traffic to get home. Closing many entertainment venues saved them a lot of money. I know that my job stress was a lot less during the high pandemic because the immigration system was closed for a big chunk of it and I was just writing appeals and briefs.Report

  8. Pinky says:

    ThTh4 – Well, if we’re going to complain about headline writing, I have to comment on “the number of lives COVID has taken”. Excess deaths aren’t a measure of the number of lives covid has taken; they’re a measure of the number of unexpected lives lost. The number checks the departure from expected (average) deaths. Those may be presumed to be caused by covid or higher-level effects of covid.

    It shouldn’t be called a measure of the lives that covid has taken. On one side, the measure implicitly cancels out the deaths of old and seriously ill covid victims. On the other, it includes the lives that covid policies have taken. Note that those deaths aren’t proof that our policies were wrong, but they shouldn’t be called lives lost to covid.Report

  9. Kazzy says:

    I didn’t read Smith’s analysis but does he control for the vastly different circumstances countries are in?

    Island nations seemed to have a natural advantage because they can much more tightly control people coming into and going out of the country.

    Different cultural values (as mentioned in your write-up above) really come into play. I read that Vietnam did an amazing job with the virus, but part of their approach included barring anyone entering the country, including citizens who were overseas. I don’t know much about Vietnamese culture and how well that went over there but I do not think that would be accepted by Americans.

    And lastly — and this feels like a bit of a third rail but here goes — certain countries could more easily lockdown/shelter-in-place because they could reasonably rely on other countries not doing so and helping to provide for their own people.

    As you say, even in a full lock down, food and basic provisions must be accessible. Where do those come from? Are they made in country or are they imported? If they’re imported, from where? What needs to be open in THOSE countries so that food can be exported? Because it’s not just food. It’s everything in the supply chain for food. And bandaids. And medicines. And tampons. And all the other *true* essentials.

    And then we had countries where vaccine research was going on. What was needed to support and sustain all that?

    None of this is to criticize countries that were able to lock down tighter and keep their numbers down. But it seems as if some countries simply didn’t have that option or, if they did take that option, it would have dramatically worsened conditions across the world. Maybe I’m overstating all this but it seems like comparing the economic and health outcomes of countries that could fully lockdown and count on other countries to keep them supplied and develop a vaccine to other countries that couldn’t do that is apples and oranges.Report

  10. Philip H says:

    Its worth noting that business leaders are NOT buying the idea that workers are failing to return due to temporary increases in unemployment insurance:

    https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/27/economy/retail-workers-child-care-best-buy/index.htmlReport

    • Oscar Gordon in reply to Philip H says:

      Good.

      Although even if it was a bigger part of the issue than it is, I fail to see the problem with having employers bump up wages. I’d rather they be forced to do it to attract labor, than to be forced to do it by law.Report