On Sweeping Change And The Importance of Trains

Jaybird

Jaybird is Birdmojo on Xbox Live and Jaybirdmojo on Playstation's network. He's been playing consoles since the Atari 2600 and it was Zork that taught him how to touch-type. If you've got a song for Wednesday, a commercial for Saturday, a recommendation for Tuesday, an essay for Monday, or, heck, just a handful a questions, fire off an email to AskJaybird-at-gmail.com

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116 Responses

  1. Damon says:

    ” “It appears that the defendant was in some sort of a temper tantrum.” ” Any elected politician of his level should know this was a stupid statement and would only cause him difficulty. That he didn’t is telling. That’s the type of soundbite the opposition keeps for when he runs for higher office.

    LeeEsq’s comment was 100% spot on.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Damon says:

      To be as charitable as I possibly can, I think that he was just trying to reframe it away from being a “hate” crime.

      Armchair psychologist has me saying “he hates being a DA and far prefers being someone in the peanut gallery screaming for something to be done and so he’s cutting himself off at the knees. The only question is whether it’s deliberately or subconsciously.”

      After that, the uncharitable interpretations get pretty uncharitable.Report

      • Damon in reply to Jaybird says:

        Even if I accept your rationale, it doesn’t address that his comments came off as tone deaf, so it’s still a terrible politically damaging comment.Report

  2. Slade the Leveller says:

    Isn’t this article beating a dead horse?Report

  3. Oscar Gordon says:

    I was going to talk about how conservatives don’t seem to pay the same price for upsetting social order apple carts, but then I thought about and realized that conservatives get away with it because of whose apple carts they are upsetting.

    Ban abortion: only poor people who can’t afford to travel are really impacted, and the ones who vote for you are the ones who probably wouldn’t get an abortion anyway.

    Attack LGTBQ: only that small demographic is really impacted, and they weren’t voting for you anyway.

    Crack down on drug use: well, it’s not all drug use, just the ones who aren’t from ‘good’ homes that can afford decent lawyers.

    Etc.

    As long as the middle class and above aren’t having their apple carts upset, you can do what you want.

    Boudin probably would have been better off focusing on expanding diversion programs and the like.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

      I honestly expect conservatives to pay a price on abortion come November and, to a smaller extent, on the LGBTQ thing.

      It’s one thing to be against the whole “late term abortion as birth control” thing and it is quite another to crack down on first trimester stuff. Same for the whole LGBTQ thing. It’s one thing to be against the worst excesses of the Tik Tok crowd, quite another to argue against normalizing not teasing Quakelyn for having a non-traditional family.

      Now, I still expect the Republicans to do well come November, but that will be entirely due to gas prices, inflation in general, and food shortages. Without the stupid attacks on abortion and the LGBTQ crowd, they’d do even better.Report

      • Oscar Gordon in reply to Jaybird says:

        I hope they do, but I’m not confident they will. Or the price paid will be low enough that they can ignore it.Report

      • DensityDuck in reply to Jaybird says:

        “Without the stupid attacks on abortion and the LGBTQ crowd, they’d do even better.”

        It’s also worth asking whether there would be attacks on abortion and the “LGBTQ crowd” if they weren’t stood up in public and forced to make declarations of their stance on it.Report

  4. Chip Daniels says:

    This essay pairs nicely with Avi’s question about “What are conservatives’ conserving?”

    As Oscar mentions, what they are conserving is their conception of the Good Order, upsetting the proper applecarts. Any disorder which arises as a result of restoring Good Order( for instance, a group of men bursting into a library and berating and threatening women and children) is an acceptable disorder.

    I’m not convinced that we know the true reasons for Boudin’s loss, but I’m willing to accept that there was a mismatch between his grandiose rhetoric and middling results.

    In any case, I don’t think it is universally true that politicians need to demonstrate tangible results on the traditional metrics of crime and jobs.
    We live in an asymmetric world, where one party base demands those things, where the other party base doesn’t.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      Can anyone know anything in this uncertain world?

      That said, his grandiose rhetoric, in practice, didn’t result in more justice, better distributed.Report

    • LeeEsq in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      The American right also has its acceptable version of what they consider good visible disorder. The problem for the American Left is that the geographic distribution of the United States allows for the Rightist version of good visible disorder to hurt them much less at the polls. Since the Democratic Party is the non-Republican Party, you have lots of people who are good and loyal Democratic voters but do not agree with the stance of the activist class on what good acceptable disorder is. The Democratic Party might not have a base per se put the ideological center is whatever suburban soccer moms and middle-aged and older African-American voters can agree on.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to LeeEsq says:

        California is a good example.
        Being an almost one party state, the battles at the state level are between one wing of Democrats versus another, but like the Republicans and Democrats of old, they both share a common vision of the good and differ only on the details.

        But the voters assess them on the traditional metrics of jobs and crime and so forth. This is why Boudin lost.

        Texas is the opposite example, Abbot can’t keep the electricity on or the commercial traffic flowing across the border but he threatens to inflict suffering on trans people, so even a small business who goes bankrupt due to the incompetence will still vote for him.

        Saul Alinsky in “Rule For Radicals” said that in order to create community organization, it is necessary to create community disorganization.
        That is, it is necessary to break apart existing power structures it is necessary to sometimes sow chaos and destruction.

        Alinsky, like the Republicans, was a radical revolutionary.Report

        • Saul Degraw in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          The big difference between solid red states and solid blue states is that there are way more internal factions among Democrats in solid blue states than there are among Republicans in solid red states. Solid blue states have politicians who would basically be Republicans running as Democrats because they are smart enough to realize an R next to their name would be toxic. If these politicians are social conservatives, they generally keep quiet on it especially for abortion and LBGT issues and they might take on some pro-environmental stances but economically, they are business-oriented conservatives or proud and loud NIMBYs.Report

        • LeeEsq in reply to Chip Daniels says:

          Boudin’s attempt to break apart existing power structures seems to have a lot of collateral damage that hurt him at the polls. A lot of the anger of Asian-American voters seems to be that they are being asked to be willing collateral damage in America’s racial justice struggles. Telling a group that the need to be willing collateral damage is a tough sell politically for elected politicians.Report

  5. Jaybird says:

    I pondered the question “What is the point of Criminal Justice?” and got a handful of answers.

    1. Punishment. (I imagine that this is fairly straightforward.)
    2. Sequestration. (If you keep doing X, we’re going to put you in a place where you can’t X anymore)
    3. Deterrence. (If you don’t want 1 or 2 to happen, don’t break the law!)
    4. Rehabilitation. (Maybe you broke the law because you don’t have a trade… so here are some skills.)

    I’ve come to realize that there are a handful of other things that have to deal with the victims.
    A. Make whole (I mean, if the guy broke a window, you can make him pay to have the window replaced. Now you’ve got your window again!)
    B. Therapy/Counselling for stuff that can’t be made whole.

    I probably missed some stuff in there but, thanks to my blind spots, they aren’t coming quickly to mind.

    When I look at the stuff Chesa was going for, I am not seeing much of any of those. Like, everything he was going for is in one of my blind spots.Report

    • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird says:

      I think 2022 America is fine with 1 and 2. 3 we’ll never know about. Evidence for 4 is seen in recidivism rates (which aren’t good). https://bjs.ojp.gov/library/publications/recidivism-prisoners-released-24-states-2008-10-year-follow-period-2008-2018

      It’s my opinion that 4 ought to be the top priority. Not only is it humane, it’s cost effective.Report

      • I can see how #4 would be good (remember the Nick Nolte/Martin Short movie “Three Fugitives”? One of the plot points was how Nick Nolte got out of prison and got a regular job as a locksmith.)

        If someone said that they saw a perverse incentive in there, I’d probably agree and talk about how we need a revamp of education policy if we really want to lean into Criminal Justice due to the whole “Deterrence” thing.

        But now we’re talking about education policy.Report

        • Marchmaine in reply to Jaybird says:

          #4 is tied to Chris’ point below about Restoration… which I’d nudge/expand in a different direction to say Justice includes restoration as part of repentance and the restoration is part of the punishment.

          But, one of the curious artifacts of our judicial artifice is that we’ve intentionally separated Criminal Justice from Civil Justice and some of what we’re dealing with is that disconnect.

          That said, that works for a certain sort of crime/criminal… from what little I’ve seen, we’d be surprised at the depth of depravity that traffics below the surface of ‘pot possession’ and petty theft.Report

          • Chris in reply to Marchmaine says:

            “..from what little I’ve seen, we’d be surprised at the depth of depravity that traffics below the surface of ‘pot possession’ and petty theft.”

            This sounds straight out of the a cop’s speech in some 80s copaganda movie.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to Marchmaine says:

            I am completely unsurprised at the level of depravity lurking beneath white collar crime.Report

            • Marchmaine in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              Amen.Report

            • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              This gets though to a core issue, and why restoration isn’t always so straightforward. Much of our crime is an unfortunate side effect of our wealthy, consumer society. We’re well passed hanging horse thieves and giving back the horses or paying weregild. And that’s a good thing. But we’ve also got opportunities and incentives for crime that barely existed 100 years ago to say nothing of before.* There used to not be cars, much less cars or retail fronts full of goods, to say nothing of regular people walking around with items of value on their person.

              Keep in mind of course most criminal acts can also be the subject of lawsuits. The issue is less the separation than that you can’t get blood from a stone.

              *I’m assuming we’re distinguishing crime as something between citizens and/or subjects under a common government from plundering between nobles and warlords and the like.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD says:

                Mother Jones: “What’re ya in for?”
                “Stole a watch.”
                “Shoulda stole a railroad millions from Medicare. You’d be a Senator by now.”Report

        • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird says:

          At the point we’re discussing of a convict’s life anything that happened before is a sunk cost. Bad education? Get him up to speed. Terrible home life? Get him some therapy. Nowhere to go once out of prison? Get him a place.

          We can’t make what happened not happen, but we should do everything we can to make sure whatever led him to do whatever he did is, at least, less a factor in his life.Report

      • Oscar Gordon in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

        It’s not just rehab/learn a skill, it’s convincing employers to accept that the convict has changed and can be trusted.Report

    • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

      This list, to me, shows everything that’s wrong with our current conceptions of “justice,” and “criminal justice” in particular, in that it’s not actually about justice at all. The goal of “criminal justice” should be restorative and transformative justice (which would include some of which you mention after 1-4, to be fair), which would require, among other things, focusing our efforts on understanding and mitigating the causes of crime, with less focus on the individual who commits a crime (which is not to say crime shouldn’t have individual consequences).

      It’s obviously virtually impossible for anyone, no matter how well-intentioned, to enact these sorts of justice in our current system, but the existing system is a manifest failure, and deeply inhuman as well. Austin has a DA who is trying to reform the system in this direction, and is getting many of the same complaints that Boudin got in San Fran, including an effective years-long work stoppage by the police.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

        So we just need to replace the current system entirely.

        Is there a “we need to be more like (Country X)” example that will work well or are we going to be wandering off into uncharted territory?

        If it’s the latter, we need people who are pretty deft at navigating through the whole bumpy road where people are still committing old criminal justice crimes under our new criminal justice paradigm.Report

        • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

          First, most Western nations have justice systems that are very different from ours. E.g., some have hard caps on sentences for any crime that are lower than our sentences for some relatively minor non-violent drug offenses, and some take the humanity of prisoners very seriously, in prison design, prisoner treatment, etc. So yeah, there are a lot of ways we can move in the direction I’m talking about, and historically, yes, there have been societies and cultures with more restorative and transformative approaches to justice, so we can learn from those as well.

          Our approach to criminal justice is pretty new, in a historical sense, as I’m sure you know, in some good ways (e.g., we don’t execute nearly as many people for nearly as many types of offenses, and at least theoretically we have due process built into the system), and some bad (e.g., the very existence of prisons as we know them). These differences reflect very different ideas of how to approach crime and criminals, with very different functions, designed to achieve very different societal goals, and in pretty much every way, they are failures, particularly when combined with our (also very new, historically) ways of policing crime.

          I don’t think it will be possible to change these things overnight, but I do think it’s possible to work in that direction, but it will require more than simply reforming the criminal justice system, because crime and criminality are society-wide issues, not merely criminal justice issues.

          Long story short: institute changes, for which we can look to Europe and elsewhere for guidance, to make our criminal justice system significantly more human and less pointlessly punitive, while working on ways to reimagine criminal justice entirely.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

            I think that criminal justice reform will be a lot easier if the stuff that even the weirdo libertarians would agree qualifies as “crime” went down and went down a lot.

            That strikes me as being the pre-req.

            An emphasis on education (just math and literacy!) and a de-emphasis on licensure for a lot of small businesses would do a lot to allow avenues other than criminality for a regular payday.

            But now we’re talking about education policy and licensure (and, I’m sure, zoning) instead of criminal justice.

            I mean, I’m on board! But Chesa had some serious order of operations problems.Report

            • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

              I think you’re right, and if you look at criminal justice reform and prison abolition literature, you’ll find that most of us largely agree with “weirdo libertarians” on everything you say here: eliminating much of what we consider crime (while, on the other hand, paying more attention to crimes we don’t police at all, like wage theft), an emphasis on education, economic stability and security, housing stability and security, access to health care, including mental health care, etc., etc. The key is to recognize that these are all criminal justice issues, or rather, criminal justice is an education, economic, housing, and health care issue.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Chris says:

                There was a long stretch of time, pre-COVID, when the stuff that even the weirdo libertarians would agree qualifies as “crime” went down and went down a lot. Even the current spike in certain types of serious crimes hasn’t brought us anywhere close to the pre-decline levels. How much criminal justice reform got done then?Report

              • Chris in reply to CJColucci says:

                Criminal justice reform, and prison reform in particular, remain fringe issues in the U.S., regardless of crime levels. This does not speak well of us, as a society.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

                Any time I have an opportunity to link to Oscar’s “Altering the Police Paradigm“, I’ll jump on it.

                I think that the most gold to be mined is in “other ideas” (and I’d add a #7 for “abolish (or reform, I guess) Asset Forfeiture”… maybe something for a #8 involving police informants) and I still think that we had a window where some of the stuff on that list could have gotten past most State Legislatures.

                Colorado, for example, passed a law limiting Qualified Immunity.

                I think that there is stuff that could plausibly get past most state legislatures on that list. End no-knock warrants, limit QI, reform (like, maybe even abolish) police informants in low-level cases… that sort of thing.Report

              • Chris in reply to Jaybird says:

                He lays out a good plan. I’d add separate both victims services and crime investigation from police proper, so that the entirety of police functions is encompassed in Oscar’s three tiers. Also, make this version of the police accountable to city government, through complete civilian oversight entirely disconnected from the police department itself, with its priorities set by the people of the city as well.

                Add guaranteed permanent supportive housing for anyone who finds themselves without a home, massive investments in education, mental and physical healthcare, and drug treatment, along with dramatic changes to what prisons are, and the elimination of prison sentences for pretty much all non-violent offenses, etc., and I think we’d have a pretty good looking system.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chris says:

                Well, if learned anything from Chesa’s tenure in San Francisco, the best move is small incremental changes rather than something more sweeping.

                Maybe we could go with more sweeping if we had someone more charismatic, of course… but in the absence of knowing that someone like that was in the wings, I think that “stuff that can get through the state legislature” is probably where we need to start.Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird says:

                I know absolutely nothing about this, but this tweet popped up on my feed this morning.

                https://twitter.com/HawaiiCSW/status/1537571249710256128Report

              • That is great news!

                (I couldn’t help but notice the “years of work” part.)Report

              • Slade the Leveller in reply to Jaybird says:

                Definitely. I’m going to try to find out more about this. It’s kind of startling, actually.Report

          • Chip Daniels in reply to Chris says:

            Prediction:

            The conservative response to this will be a litany of reasons why we can’t be like this nation, or shouldn’t be like that nation, and in any case it is entirely impossible and will have second order effects worse than doing nothing.Report

            • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              Assume those people show up. What argument would you give that we could be, oh, more like the EU or something?

              Like, if someone argued “our FDA should be more like the EMA”, how would you help bolster their argument against people who argued that we needed to keep the status quo?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                I for one am happy to explore a European style FDA.

                And a raft of other European style things.Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Well, in order to evaluate the claim that the FDA should be more like the EMA, someone will have to tell us not only that the EMA made decisions someone agrees with that the FDA didn’t, but what it is, specifically, about the way the EMA works — its legal authority, its structure, its staffing, its resources, and its procedures — that creates these better results.
                There may well be people who know what they’re talking about who can tell us something useful. I await their contributions.Report

            • Chris in reply to Chip Daniels says:

              I don’t need to speculate on what the conservative arguments will be, because we’ve seen them in the wild for years now. There are valid concerns, raised even by progressives and leftists, about violence, e.g. (and particularly, at least among progressives and leftists, violence against women), but most of the arguments reveal, as Jay’s list did, a fundamentally different conception of justice, so they’re going to be hard to convince (most people are). There’s a lot of convincing to be done.Report

          • Saul Degraw in reply to Chris says:

            They are not quite as hard as people think they are. Anders Brevik was technically sentenced to 21 years I believe but it is my understanding that he needs to prove he reformed in order to be released and this is unlikely. Likewise, the U.K. allows the Home Secretary to impose a “whole life tariff” on criminals which becomes life without parole. Though this is typically reserved for the most shocking crimes and criminals like Rosemary West.

            My other rough understanding is that support for the death penalty among the general European populace is quite high and it is very much an elite consensus project to keep it off the books. French prisons are also supposed to be fairly brutal places.

            I don’t think abolish prisons will ever be a majority popular stance and I have views that defund/abolish the police became a self-own among reforming activists.* But more centralization could help with prison reform in the Untied States.

            *The slogans were meant to be short and easily understandable but it ended up being taken too literary and leading to a trillion conversations like this:

            X: Defund/abolish the police.

            Y: What does that mean? Why do you want to get rid of the police?

            X: I don’t meant it literally. I mean the money could be better spent on mental health professionals and social workers.

            Z: I mean it literally. Abolish all police and prisons.

            Y: Z is nuts.

            Or, I remember discussions about community/neighborhood policing but I am not sure we want different policing rules/standards for Bernal Heights, the Sunset, Pacific Heights, and Bayview to use San Francisco as an example.Report

        • Oscar Gordon in reply to Jaybird says:

          Norway seems to have an effective system, IIRC.Report

          • Chris in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

            Norway would be my model for interim reform, in many ways (their system is not perfect), specifically their strict sentencing limits (rather than minimums) and more humane and education/rehabilitation focused prisons.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

            The other day, there was a take on why Communism failed in Russia that said: “what went wrong” with Communism wasn’t just that it was Communism, but that it occurred in Russia.

            Does this apply here as well? Norway’s Criminal Justice works because they’re doing in in Norway?Report

            • Greg In Ak in reply to Jaybird says:

              Yes any system whether a good Norwegian CJ system or Russia’s bad history of authoritarian dictators grows organically from it’s context. We have to adapt whatever we want to pick from to work for us. Good thing we have restorative justice and alternative dispute resolution programs here to learn from. We have a bigger and very different racism problem most prominently to cope with.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Greg In Ak says:

                I kinda see Chesa’s attempt as one of the restorative justice and alternative dispute resolution programs that we can learn from.Report

              • Greg In Ak in reply to Jaybird says:

                Urm…yeah. Lots of actual working programs out there and plenty of other DA’s. Boudin isn’t the be all and end all. Given his apparent almost Clintonesqe talent for phrases that grind like a kid with his first manual trans that explains a lot of him.

                Larger an obvious problem is that one point in the system can’t change the entire thing. Need much wider and comprehensive by in. Reformers take note.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Greg In Ak says:

                He had more lessons to teach than merely “don’t say offensive things”.

                What other DAs are the ones that we need to be paying attention to instead?

                (I’ve heard George Gascón’s name a lot.)Report

            • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird says:

              Does this apply here as well? Norway’s Criminal Justice works because they’re doing in in Norway?

              Or, to put in a less euphemistic way: Are white people in America going to take issue with any American Criminal Justice reform because they are racists who do not want to help non-white people, in exactly the same way they take issue with welfare and police reform and everything?

              Because that’s what everyone means when they say America works differently because it is more ‘diverse’ than Nordic countries…it works differently because American racists don’t want non-white people to have better lives if this may improve those people relative to white people. So they block and sabotage anything that could do that.

              (And here is where I make two preemptive clarifications: If you think I’m only talking about conservatives and the right you haven’t been listening to me at all, and in fact a large amount of this is done by white liberals, and also, Norway is just as racist as America, it’s just they don’t have political parties pushing that particular narrative like the US does.)Report

              • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC says:

                As much as I appreciate your dudgeon, I didn’t get the answer to the question.

                But if I had to guess, I’d say that your answer would be that San Francisco’s attempt at reform didn’t work because they were doing it in San Francisco.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Q. Why won’t reform work?

                A. Because of American racism.

                I didn’t see an answer but I assume it’s the fault of San Francisco liberals.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Chip, have you seen this article? It’s got a breakdown of the districts that opposed the recall and the districts that supported it.

                So you’re going to go with “American racism”? Fair enough.

                Here are the districts that opposed the recall (in descending order):
                North Bernal Heights
                South Bernal Heights
                Haight Ashbury
                The Mission
                Inner Sunset
                Noe Valley
                and, just barely, Upper Market Eureka.

                The other 19 districts supported the recall from ranges of “just barely” to “whoa momma”.

                Should I bother linking to a breakdown of the demographics by district? Would that matter at all?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                You asked about why reform won’t work here like it does in Norway.

                You got an answer.

                The details vary from this place to that, or from this specific race to that one, but in general, it’s because, yeah criminal justice in America is heavily influenced by racism.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I got an answer but the answer doesn’t seem to accurately reflect the reality on the ground for who supported the recall and who opposed it.

                Like, I wanna say that the numbers show that the bougie white districts supported keeping Chesa and it was the other 19 districts that included the ones that are least white.

                And so “American racism” strikes me as a way to pull the old “we did nothing wrong” rather than look at whether something was, in fact, done in such a way that it ought to be done differently the next time Criminal Justice Reform is attempted.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                I think everyone here thinks Boudin did plenty wrong.

                Doesn’t seem to be in opposition to the the idea that criminal justice in America is heavily influenced by racism.

                To argue against that strikes me as a way to pull the old “We’ve done nothing wrong” rather than look at whether something is in fact wrong.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Well, how do you think we should best address American racism in San Francisco in order to help us do a better job reforming Criminal Justice?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                First by acknowledging that it exists and exists everywhere including San Francisco. And racism is woven into the very structure of our laws and regulation affecting everything from housing and land use, to crime, from arts and culture to immigration.

                And judging from the comments on even this modestly liberal blog, that’s a heavy lift.Report

              • Damon in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                What, liberals are racist?!!!?? I am shocked, no SHOCKED.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Well, thank you for doing the hard part of acknowledging that it exists and exists everywhere including San Francisco.

                I hope that more of us will do more and follow your lead.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird says:

                Like, I wanna say that the numbers show that the bougie white districts supported keeping Chesa and it was the other 19 districts that included the ones that are least white.

                This is an extremely goofy conclusion, Jaybird, and ignores the fact that proximity to people of color often is the trigger to racism.

                San Francisco is an _extremely_ white and Asian (and Hispanic(1)) city to start with. It is entirely plausible that in areas with basically no Black people, white voters do not actually care. Whereas in the other areas, when they are around Black people, white people are worried about them.

                The way to figure out how different demographics voted is to actually ask how they voted, not use a location as proxy for them…by that logic, you could assert that Black people vote for Republicans because the areas with the highest percentage of Black people is in the South!

                1) I’m not actually sure how Hispanic stuff plays into things there. Asians tend to get ‘honorary white person’ treatment, at least when we’re talking about East Asians, which is who we’re generally talking about in San Francisco. Hispanic people…sometimes. Or sometimes they’re on the other side of the fear-mongering.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC says:

                This is an extremely goofy conclusion, Jaybird, and ignores the fact that proximity to people of color often is the trigger to racism.

                So is it a goofy conclusion or an accurate one?

                The way to figure out how different demographics voted is to actually ask how they voted, not use a location as proxy for them…

                It doesn’t look like anybody asked. If your google-fu is better than mine, please share links with the demographics of how folks voted.

                As such, I’m stuck looking at what is given me by the San Francisco Department of Elections. (With some serious help from the Chronicle’s data analysis.)

                I do seem to keep seeing how the AAPI community in San Francisco overwhelmingly supported the recall.

                I suppose if we make them honorary whites, we can still blame this on white people.

                How can we do a better job of making honorary white people more progressive?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Its almost like the AAPI community felt like they were the victims of widespread racism, that their concerns were overlooked because of their ethnicity.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Sounds like they’re ready to graduate from “honorary” to “fully fledged”.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                You’re telling us how AAPI people felt excluded and victimized as a race and subsequently voted overwhelmingly in one direction.

                I started out thinking that the best explanation for the outcome was poor political instincts on Boudin’s part.

                But now you’ve convinced me that perhaps American racism of the anti-Asian variety may have some explanatory value as well.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Sounds like Progressives need to figure out a way to message more clearly to members of the AAPI community.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Or, and just hear me out here, Americans of all political stripes might need to grasp that criminal justice reform can’t be implemented here as it is in Norway because American racism gets in the way.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I would agree with that wholeheartedly.

                Looks like “back to the old way” might be the way to bet, if American racism will make attempts to make things more Norwegian result in worse outcomes.

                Knowing this, will you now support George Gascón’s recall?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                1. Its not racism!
                2. OK, so it is racism, but;
                3. Behold, the power of racism!Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Chip, you’re the one saying that you won’t be able to do anything because of racism.

                I’m the one arguing for ways to get around that sort of thing.

                Indeed, I’m arguing that it’s possible to work around that sort of thing instead of saying “we can only have a Norwegian system if we were in Norwegia.”Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Neither one of us said anything of the sort.

                But I would be delighted to hear your ideas for combatting racism.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                My emphasis is not combatting racism.

                I mean, if you’ve got a BIPOC person allegedly killing an elderly AAPI person, it seems like “addressing racism” is, like, a way to avoid talking about the murder.

                Does it entail talking about how the murderer was racist?
                Does it entail talking to the community of the murdered about how this was bad, yes, but the killer was not racist (it was more of a temper tantrum, really)?

                I mean, it seems to me that jumping to how we have to talk about racism instead of, like, the criminal justice issues of murder is a great way to make racism worse rather that doing something to alleviate it.

                Do you think that San Francisco is better off for Chesa’s attempts to make up for racism over the last two years?

                I sure as hell don’t. More than that, I think that he made criminal justice reform more difficult in the short-to-medium term while, at the same time, becoming a punchline.

                That’s bad.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                But you ARE talking about racism, repeatedly, over and over and over again, that the killer was of one race and the victim another and how that community felt their race was being marginalized.

                Nothing wrong with that, but you keep coming back to race as a deciding factor in the recall.

                The lesson of the recall (based entirely on your statements) was that Boudin seemed to focus on healing the wounds of one type of racism, while overlooking another.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Nothing wrong with that, but you keep coming back to race as a deciding factor in the recall.

                The AAPI community did not feel represented because of Chesa’s ham-handed attempts to address racism.

                The fact that he was racist even as he was trying really, really hard to not be racist and even address historical racism was *BAD*.

                While I’d say that the last two thirds of your last sentence is true, I wouldn’t say that that was the “lesson” of the recall.

                I do think that figuring out what “the lesson” of the recall is will be important.

                It might even be something as simple as “don’t be inept”.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

                Right, that American race relations are very complex and very powerful and Boudin was inept at managing them.

                So Norwegian style police reform will require acknowledging and addressing American racism in all its facets.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                So Norwegian style police reform will require acknowledging and addressing American racism in all its facets.

                At this point, I’m not convinced of that.

                I think a mere display of competence would go a long way.

                But, if you’re right, thanks for doing the heavy lifting on behalf of all of us here by acknowledging American racism.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Assuming enough people grasp that, where does that get us?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                It took time and a lot of concerted effort, but support for civil rights was built by convincing enough Americans that racism was existing, and evil.

                This was true for black people, and for LGBTQ people, and for feminism.

                Getting Jaybird to finally admit that yeah, police reform is difficult because American racism gets in the way is an example because now all the other bullsh!t excuses can be set aside.

                Look also at the discussions on these pages to convince people that yeah, opposition to trans acceptance is bigotry.Report

              • Oscar Gordon in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Let me re-phrase, “How do you get racism out of the way?”.

                Assuming that your open racists aren’t going to change, and your closeted racists aren’t going to accept their part and change, what do you do?Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

                If a sufficient number of American citizens decide to withhold rights to the rest, that is going to happen.

                There is no other outcome. People either choose to follow racist policies or they don’t.

                All I can do is speak the truth and call it what it is.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird says:

                So is it a goofy conclusion or an accurate one?

                Your conclusion was that minorities voted against him because districts with large amounts of minorities voted against him.

                That is an extremely silly conclusion as to who was doing the voting, and it could have just as easily been the white people in those districts being more racist than white people not near minorities.

                And, yes, AAPI do indeed almost always end up on the ‘white people’ side of criminal reform, with the added complication of them often being completely ignored… Although I’m not sure that’s true in San Francisco? I admit I know very little about the politics of San Francisco, but it really feels to me that there’s been an Asian population there long enough, and it is large enough, that it should have a significant power base? But I guess that isn’t the same as people’s feelings that they’re being heard.

                And as for how we address it, there is a group of people who find it to political advantage to push race-based narratives, and these narratives have pretty thoroughly poisoned entire generations of Americans. I would suggest the thing we should probably do first is stop them from continuing to do that, stop playing along with this or acting like it’s acceptable.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to DavidTC says:

                Oh, and most of these race-based narratives rely on screaming about crime (in a way completely disconnected from any actual crime rate), so reducing crime would be a good plan, but sadly the most effective way of reducing crime is exactly the sort of welfare that we can’t actually do in this country because of racism.

                I don’t really know how to solve that Catch-22.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC says:

                Oh, and most of these race-based narratives rely on screaming about crime (in a way completely disconnected from any actual crime rate)

                I honestly think that if Chesa had described the alleged attacks on alleged elderly alleged Asians as “allegedly heinous” rather than taking a more circumspect attitude about whether we really want to ascribe bad intent to the alleged acts, he might have squeaked past the finish line with a W.

                Like, some crimes are worth screaming about.Report

              • DensityDuck in reply to DavidTC says:

                “the response to crime is to pay the criminals not to do crimes” is an intriguing and not entirely unworkable solution, but does present something of a moral hazard.

                “we should pay the criminals not to do crimes because there are a lot of criminals out there” well, bullets aren’t very expensive and there are more bullets than criminals.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to DensityDuck says:

                “the response to crime is to pay the criminals not to do crimes” is an intriguing and not entirely unworkable solution, but does present something of a moral hazard.

                That was not my actual premise, although directly paying people not to commit crimes is actually a hilarious and mostly workable situation, considering that most crimes actually cause a lot more societal damage than the criminals gain.

                My premise was ‘Making sure that people were not so poor that they feel their best method of survival is to commit crimes…would vastly reduce crime’.

                A huge chunk of low-level crime is motivated by people who need that money for something directly connected to survival, and if they already had that thing they would not be committing the crime.

                Especially at the _start_ of a criminal’s career. Yes, there are plenty of career criminals committing crimes that, in a technical sense, they don’t ‘need’ to. But almost all of criminals _started_ as criminals due to necessity at one point or another, and it becomes increasingly hard to switch to another career. (Helped by society being unwilling to _let_ them switch, but that’s a different problem.)

                Breaking Bad isn’t fiction, although it’s usually not people with cancer setting themselves up as drug kingpins, it’s people who know a bunch of criminals and who can’t pay their rent getting roped into something to make some money, and things just continue from there until they get caught the first time, and at that point their career is pretty much locked in.

                But if they had been able to pay the rent?Report

              • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC says:

                Now we’re talking about housing policy, though.

                Why did Cabrini-Green fail? (Oh, I suppose we should ask, do we agree that Cabrini-Green was a failure?)Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird says:

                I wasn’t really deliberately talking about housing, by ‘pay the rent’ I just meant ‘pay the general necessities of life’. You can swap ‘food’ or ‘electric bill’ or ‘medical expenses’ in there or whatever.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC says:

                I just have stuff like polling.

                I don’t know that the people were telling the truth to the pollsters.

                To the extent that the pre-election polls matched up with the districts, it looks like the assumption isn’t a bad one? But without election polling, you can easily imagine AAPI and LatinX and BIPOC people lying at the same time that the W people are lying in the other direction.

                I guess we can never know for sure.Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird says:

                Jaybird, I wasn’t arguing with you that you were not right, I was pointing out that your conclusion was nonsensical from the evidence you presented. Saying ‘minority areas went for this more than non-minority areas’ does not logically support a ‘ergo, this is how minorities voted’ conclusion…as I pointed out, states with the largest Black population in this country generally lean Republican, but that doesn’t mean that Black people generally vote Republican!

                If you had polling, you should have presented _that_ as the evidence, because a conclusion can be reached from it.

                And plus, if you’d done that, we might have understood you were talking about AAPI people being in favor of the recall, which, uh, is sorta outside the general sort of system of systemic anti-Black and anti-brown racism that ‘tough on crime’ narratives rely on. I mean, blame me if you want for simplifiying to ‘non-white’, but. ‘This was about Asian-American’s feeling they were targets of crime and not seen by the mostly-white government’ is actually an entire different thing than ‘This is about Black Americans not being in favor of less policing’.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to DavidTC says:

                Did the polling talk about how Black Americans in the district felt about whether Chesa should have been recalled?

                Like, if the districts that supported him were primarily the bougie White districts… can we reach any conclusions about that?

                Or are we still going to wander off in to what we can or cannot know about the human heart?Report

              • DavidTC in reply to Jaybird says:

                Why are you asking me what your polling says?

                The links you supplied paint this almost entirely as an Asian-American issue, and the polling within them supports that.

                And, yes, a majority of _all_ races supported the recall, but…that’s actually how well-funded recall elections generally work, which is part of the reason they are so criticized.

                Running _against_ a person is always easier than running a person, it’s why candidates do that all the time, run against what the other people did instead of running on what they would do instead. And recall elections have the dubious distinction of being structured like that to start with. Everyone can just project all their anger at that one person, what ‘that person is doing wrong’ instead of having an actual candidate distract them with ‘…and I would do it this way instead’, which they might not agree with.

                Basically, recall elections are running the existing officer-holder (Which has almost certainly done at least one thing that any random voter disagrees with.) against some imaginary perfect candidate that exactly matches that voter’s preference. It’s surprising when they _don’t_ succeed. (Which is why trying to take anything from this election is a bit silly.)

                What is relevant is the differences in level of support.Report

  6. Jaybird says:

    Uh-oh, maybe people care about lawn order more than their own personal racism?

    Report

    • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

      Were his trains no longer running on time?Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

        Obviously, yes.

        One of the things that we want from Criminal Justice is, like, Justice.

        This includes (but is not limited to):
        1. Punishing/Sequestering Bad Guys
        2. Not Punishing/Sequestering Innocent Guys

        If a Sheriff punishes/sequesters innocent people, that is also injustice.

        “Oh, so you’re saying that he should have handled actual murderers with kid gloves!”
        “No, I am not saying that.”
        “So you’ve got a problem with law enforcement punishing innocent people and law enforcement not doing their job when it comes to guilty people?”
        “Yes.”
        “Inconsistent much?”Report

        • DensityDuck in reply to Jaybird says:

          Jaybird, why won’t you just say what it is that you mean, instead of continually repeating the same thing over and over?Report

          • Jaybird in reply to DensityDuck says:

            “So you think Type 1 errors are bad.”
            “Yes.”
            “Why do you like Type 2 errors?”
            “I don’t?”
            “Well, you were talking so much about Type 1 errors being bad.”
            “They are bad.”
            “WHAT ABOUT TYPE 2 ERRORS?”
            “They’re bad?”
            “I can’t. I just can’t. Wait. What about edge cases?”Report

            • DensityDuck in reply to Jaybird says:

              I think the fact that you can’t come up with a good answer to my question about Type 2 errors is extremely interesting! It’s almost like you don’t want to talk about Type 2 errors for some reason!Report

    • Douglas Hayden in reply to Jaybird says:

      And a lot of other progressive DAs and mayors in California are having much better times than Boudin.

      The more I read, the more I’m convinced this had less to do with any national vibes than a case of San Fran getting rid of a local version of Dennis Kucinich.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Douglas Hayden says:

        I think that an agreement that Chesa talked the talk but didn’t walk the walk and, at the end of the day, the population got rid of a DA that couldn’t make the trains run on time would be a good place for everybody to end up. “We need to hire a progressive DA who isn’t a screw-up” might be a good conclusion to reach.

        Sure as hell a lot better than “Asians found out that being racist is cruise control for Whiteness.”Report

  7. Jesse says:

    Considering Chesea got 46% in the recall, there’s a decent chance that he could just run in the replacement election, and win back the office due to the ranked-choice system.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Jesse says:

      That is, indeed, on the table.

      The DA that London Breed will announce next month will have some minor benefit of incumbency but I don’t know that it will be sufficient to keep Chesa from winning in the third round again.

      And, on top of everything else, that would be funny as heck.Report

  8. Jaybird says:

    Speaking of George Gascón, he’s tweeting out that he’s doing his job:

    Report

    • Damon in reply to Jaybird says:

      Yeah, but California classifies those crimes as misdemeanors if it’s below 950 USD….so what punishment would these people actually receive if they were prosecuted? I’m thinking “not much”, and that’s assuming the cops catch them, arrest them, and the prosecutor charges them.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Damon says:

        Oh, I have no idea about whether or not what he’s saying is true or whether his hands are tied at the state level or what.

        I *DO* think that the movement of prominent New And Improved Justice Language people moving back towards Classic Justice Language is indicative of, at least, some frank conversations behind the scenes.

        Like, Stacy Abrams is fighting off attacks that she’s a “Defund The Police” kinda politician.

        Like… HOW BAD IS THE INTERNAL POLLINGReport