Let Not the Sins of The Client Be Cast Upon the Lawyer
We lawyers are an historically reviled bunch, from the cheap suit tailgating the ambulance to the corporate attorney in the $5000 Armani, against whom “the little guy” never stood a chance. The Cohen-esque fixers, the Avenatti-like opportunists, the ruthless sharks, your ex’s divorce lawyer. And, of course, the defense attorney, going to bat for the scum of the earth, daring to suggest innocence or urge leniency. Name your trope. Lawyers, except for those who represent the most virtuous causes, are a convenient and popular scapegoat for the ills and injustices in society.
We saw this recently in the case of Ronald S. Sullivan, Jr., a Harvard Law professor and dean of one of the college’s 12 undergraduate houses. Sullivan has a long and impressive career, including high profile criminal defense and significant work in the defense of the indigent. In January, Sullivan joined the defense team for Harvey Weinstein, the disgraced Hollywood producer who has become the villainous face of the #metoo movement and currently faces charges of rape. The response from a segment of the student body at Harvard was one of outrage. Angry students rallied in protest, demanding his resignation from his deanship. They began a petition on Change.org, calling Sullivan’s decision to take the case “upsetting” and “deeply trauma inducing”, noting that the Weinstein case “literally shakes people on this campus to this day”.
Stated the petition:
For those of you who are members of Winthrop House, do you really want to one day accept your Diploma from someone who for whatever reason, professional or personal, believes it is okay to defend such a prominent figure at the centre of the #MeToo movement?
These are not, so far as one can discern, law students. That is a relief because the thought that students of Harvard Law, the supposed creme de la creme of legal minds, would intermesh the alleged deeds of a criminal defendant with the character or integrity of his or her lawyer is disheartening.
Our legal system, particularly the criminal justice system, is in my view, the greatest in the history of civilization. It has flaws- very big flaws- but those flaws are the work of the humans involved in the system, not the system itself. For example, nothing in the system requires or facilitates the disproportionately harsh sentencing of one defendant over another similarly situated defendant; that’s the work of imperfect people. But in order for our courts to function as intended, to give justice a fighting chance, to protect the citizenry from the teeth of a machine operated by the more powerful authorities, there needs to be a wall between them. A high wall that law enforcement, prosecutors, and judges must climb before a person may lose liberty. You may hate lawyers, but to appropriate a phrase from everyone’s favorite colonel, you want us on that wall. You need us on that wall.
I was a criminal defense attorney for many years. I voluntarily took court-appointed cases for indigent defendants. I could not pick and choose which of these cases I would take; were I to contact the court administrator and complain that I didn’t want to represent a particular defendant, I could rest assured it would be a cold day in hell before I got another case. So, I represented petty thieves, wife beaters, drunk drivers, drug dealers, child abusers, and even a couple of sex offenders. But my work was not limited to cases I was court ordered to take; I also accepted paying clients, whom I was free to decline to represent. That never happened. And as an associate attorney working for an older, much more experienced and well-known lawyer, I was co-counsel for some very contemptible people charged with some horrendous things. It was not always easy. I have sat alone in small 6×8 foot rooms with accused murderers. I’ve had to cross-examine the young victims of sexual abuse. I’ve listened to rapists and abusers justify themselves to me without letting my expression crack despite my inner disgust. Nevertheless, I’m confident in saying I provided all of them competent legal representation (which does not necessarily mean an acquittal).
On more than a few occasions, my non-lawyer friends and family would look at me with obvious disdain, asking how. How could I possibly do this? How could I live with myself, knowing a dangerous criminal might remain free, because of my work? How could I stand in front of a judge and jury, in the face of sometimes strong evidence of guilt, and advocate for my client’s acquittal, or a light sentence?
Because, I would tell them, that could be you or me standing there accused, with the weight and power of the government doing everything it can to win (yes, it is a prosecutor’s job to seek justice, not necessarily to convict, but make no mistake: once you have been charged, justice to them is your conviction.) My job as a defense attorney is not to lie, or knowingly present lies to try to get my client out of trouble. My job was to protect his constitutional rights, present facts and evidence in a light most favorable to him, and to make sure the state did their job fairly and were made to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt.
Criminal defendants have a right to counsel. To a speedy trial. To have a jury of their peers, to confront their accusers, and to not have illegally obtained evidence used against them. If good people want to ensure that these rights exist for them, should they ever find themselves accused of a crime, then it is important that these rights be protected for everyone, every time. The court system is not going to differentiate the falsely accused from the dead-to-rights guilty; we cannot have two systems.
There are lawyers who simply cannot bring themselves to defend certain cases, like child abuse. And of course, many lawyers, perhaps most lawyers, don’t do any criminal work at all. That’s fine too, and I don’t judge them for that. I personally would not touch tax law with a ten foot pole. But being a criminal defense attorney says nothing about a person’s character. Ronald Sullivan, Jr. is not a rape apologist or an enemy of women or of sexual assault survivors because he represents Harvey Weinstein, just as he was not a killer or an advocate of killing when he defended Aaron Hernandez, the former Patriot tight-end eventually convicted of murder.
So, when I saw one of my Twitter friends tweet (now deleted) an article about the Sullivan uproar, saying something along the lines of “good, he should be shamed for representing Weinstein and Weinstein should be stuck with a public defender”, I couldn’t help but push back. For one thing, public defenders are not the bottom of the barrel; some of them are among the finest lawyers I’ve ever met, having dedicated their career to this work. They are experts. Secondly, the actions of a defendant cannot be imputed to the lawyer, and shaming an attorney for his or her choice of client is unfair, and indeed a threat to our legal system. If lawyers know that representing an unpopular defendant will result in widespread harassment and criticism of his or her character, the likely result is fewer lawyers willing to take on the harder cases. Imagine finding yourself accused of #metoo allegations or worse and being unable to find a lawyer to take your case because of public opinion. (Don’t count on court-appointed counsel; there is a maximum income level to qualify, and it is much lower than you might imagine.)
In an interview with The New Yorker, Ronald Sullivan was asked his response to a critic who was confused, because a career public defender should represent people without power in the system. One particular part of his reply sums it up nicely:
“I’m not aware of any criminal defendant who has power in the system.”
Well said, and particularly want to second the notion that public defenders are not incompetent. I think that comes from examples of such being construed as representative of the class.Report
And there is a difference between incompetent and overwhelmed with cases.Report
Yes. And underfunded. It’s tough when you have to beg the court just to get authorization to hire and pay an expert.Report
“And underfunded.”
-If you wake up naked in the wrong church. Just sayin’. [it is the system]Report
Another point I should have made is the role of the defense attorney in ensuring an airtight conviction. It sounds paradoxical, but error free trials mean denied appeals. A good defense attorney puts the brakes on improper actions by the prosecution. A trial full of errors by the prosecution leads to overturned convictions and sometimes, free-walking criminals.Report
I have a good friend who is a criminal defense attorney. She took a lot of cases from the PD’s office that they couldn’t handle for whatever reason. She made her bones with the local criminal defense bar when she was assigned a murder for hire case. She almost got the guy off. It was a cold case that had been reopened, and the cops, who are not terribly competent, had a crap chain of evidence. So the defendant would likely have walked except that he also couldn’t keep his mouth shut and implicated himself to a fellow prisoner, who not only was a jailhouse snitch, but was wearing a wire at the time. So while the guy will spend the rest of his life in prison, she so impressed the more senior criminal defense lawyers that she was promptly offered a much better job as a result. Total win-win.Report
One of my high school sweethearts (the one who effed me up for the rest of my life, as a matter of fact) went on to become a lawyer that has commercials that you see on television. Way back at the beginning of her career, I asked her about her career choice and I asked about defending, oh, drunk drivers.
She explained that it wasn’t so that they could necessarily get off the hook, it was so that they could get justice. One judge might throw the book at defendants another might be willing to agree that traffic school and probation was the best solution to the problem. As a lawyer, it was her job to know the best judges for her defendants to help them get the justice they deserved. (I think she was implying that she wanted her clients to get the good judges.)
Which struck me then, as it does now, as an indicator that the justice system isn’t really a justice system… but that’s why having a good lawyer is important and it’s better to have those available to everybody rather than merely to people that we, as a society, agree shouldn’t be chewed up and spit out by the system.Report
Agree with every word here. My best childhood friend works as a public defender, but he started his career in the prosecutor’s office. He’s seen it from the inside; cops lie on the stand, fabricate and plant evidence, etc. Not all prosecutors and not all cops but it absolutely happens. And a DA’s performance is evaluated on convictions, full stop. The actual guilt or innocence of the accused is mostly irrelevant.
Then, for reasons I doubt that he was totally honest with me about but are entirely his own in any case, he switched to the public defender role. He described his role as such (paraphrasing), I know 95% of these people are guilty as sin, but my job is… Well you said it very well and it was almost verbatim, My job was to protect his constitutional rights, present facts and evidence in a light most favorable to him, and to make sure the state did their job fairly and were made to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt.
A system that provides a vigorous defense of the accused is absolutely critical to keeping the system as honest as possible.Report
Convenient that lawyers sit on both sides of the equation. No other profession is afforded such authority, the authority to sit in judgment of other professions. For engineers, the 737 MAX8 controversy currently comes to mind. Hell, they (the lawyers) sit atop the WA state medical board in judgment of physicians. Courts recognizing peer review protections for only two professions, lawyers and physicians, and 5th Amendment applies in both physician and attorney discipline proceedings Spevack v Klein (1967).
So, where are the attorneys in Washington state willing to take up my case against UW Medicine and the WA Medical Quality Assurance Commission? After being assaulted by a “vulnerable” adult (22yo male nearly 300-lbs) and terminated after my employer was notified of a complaint by the Borderline Personality Disordered mother, the MQAC, while hastening my termination, managed to act on and dismiss the complaint against me in record time. However, it failed to inform my attorney or me of the dismissal for nearly 8 months, effectively blocking reemployment. So, this excessive preamble is prelude to this question. Where are the attorneys willing to take a case pitting my lawyer against the University of Washington behemoth, the WA State Attorney General, the WA State Department of Health and all wrapped in the public cross examination of an autistic “kid” and a woman with borderline personality disorder?
Nowhere is the answer so far. The excuses include “it would be professional suicide” and “I don’t want my kids to lose access to an education at UW”.Report
whatReport
I’m sorry you have that perspective. You clearly have a chip on your shoulder about lawyers based on a personal situation. All I can say is that there are a lot of reasons why it can be difficult to find a lawyer to take on certain cases, especially for a civil matter. It could be that there is little chance of prevailing. Could be that a client comes off as more trouble than the case is worth. It doesn’t change my points here.Report
Thanks dearReport
Wonderful piece, Em. Agree whole-heartedly. A way I think of it: the job of the defense attorney is to make sure the government hasn’t cut corners, that they’ve done everything by the book, that they’ve considered all the evidence. Defense attorneys keep the government honest (to the extent it can be kept honest). It’s a critical restraint on power.Report
Let me join the chorus of those saying what a great piece. Thumbs up Em!
An old friend of mine from high school has gone into Criminal Defence after working for the ACLU. I have always deeply respected her career choices.Report
Thank you!Report
I don’t see any reason that Sullivan should be pressured or disciplined. But at first glance, I can understand if his personal reputation suffers. This article said that he’s joining Weinstein’s team of lawyers. So apparently Weinstein is not unrepresented. I haven’t heard anything indicating that Weinstein’s case will involve difficult issues of law, necessitating the presence of an elite team. So the only reason I can imagine a lawyer joining this team is money.
If a rich person is drowning, and shouts out that whoever saves him gets $1 million, I would applaud the courage of the first lifeguard who dives in to save him. The second one, however…Report
Why are lawyers wrong for doing their job for money? Maybe the team felt they needed additional manpower. Do we complain about doctors paid for second opinions, or actors paid for joining an ensemble cast? It seems to be mostly attorneys who are criticized for wanting to earn money for their work. This site has plenty of great writers; why should I have bothered to join? I just must be in it for the exposure and therefore I bring nothing to the table.Report
Any time a big-name actor appears in a lousy summer blockbuster, I think less of him. It’s not the number of other actors that bothers me; it’s the sense that he’s part of a project that offers him nothing other than a paycheck. If he talked about how the latest Michael Bay project allowed him to hone his craft, that wouldn’t hold water. Likewise, if a lawyer joins a team for a wealthy client and someone defends him on the grounds of the need for all people to be represented, it’d seem like a weak position. I don’t deny people the right to earn money at their careers, but I’m not going to laud Sean Connery for participating in Highlander II. (That is, if there were a sequel to Highlander, which is something I will never acknowledge.)Report
Highlander II takes place in the same universe as The Matrix.
Remember when Morpheus said “we’re the ones who scorched the sky”? He was talking about The Shield.Report
Highlander movies: there can be only one.Report
Lots of actors have taken big money roles so they have the freedom to open a theater of their own ( william peterson of csi did this i think) or so they can make smaller indie pics. It seems like a lawyer taking a big money case allows them to then take plenty of indigent cases if they wish.Report
Makes me think of the movie Solitary Man, with Michael Douglas, Susan Sarandon, Danny DeVito, and Parker Posey. Nice movie, glad I watched it, but no commercial movie producer could have put it out paying this cast what it could normally command. I’ve often wondered what the deal was.Report
Why are lawyers wrong for doing their job for money?
As Pinky said, a lawyer is wrong to take a job “only* because of the money rather than *in addition* to the money. Granted, no lawyer will directly say that that’s why they took the job – instead, they’ll say they believe in the client’s case and that everyone deserves adequate representation and so on. As an analogy, consider the the following in the context of accepting PAC money: “Why are politicians wrong for doing their job for money?” The most obvious answer, seems to me, is that politicians, like lawyers, are *supposed* to act on higher ideals than merely satisfying their own financial self-interest.
Maybe that’s a quaint notion which won’t survive the Trump era. 🙂Report
I dunno. How far do people’s ethical obligations extend beyond doing their job in an ethical fashion?Report
I dunno either. Apparently far enough that we’re talking about this tho.Report
Have there been any big cases recently where a client went into a business and said “I want to ask you to do something for me!” and the guy said “you know what? That violates my conscience!”
How did we, as a society, respond to the conscientious guy?
Is that a precedent we want set across the board?Report
It’s not about precedents. Seems to it’s where we already are, and have been for as long as I’ve been alive. People make judgments like the type we’re talking about routinely.Report
You won’t find anyone more contemptuous of stare decisis than I.
I’m on board. Today, Weinstein is “it”. Sucks to be him! The only lawyers he should have available are the ones with nicknames like “Racehorse” that everybody knows are sleazy and only do things for the money.
So let it be written, so let it be done.Report
“Sean Connery sold out!”
“Hey, why are you attacking the right of a defendant to counsel, bro?”Report
Remember when Connery yelled “You’re the man now, dog!” in Finding Forrester?Report
{Chris Farley voice}: Yeah, that was cool.Report
@Jaybird:
How did we, as a society, respond to the conscientious guy?
We differed based on whether we thought running a business ethically allowed for him to reject customers based on his personal beliefs.
Is that a precedent we want set across the board?
That some ethical obligations associated with one’s work should outweigh personal conscience?
I dunno, man. I don’t think we’d want criminal defense lawyers deciding to sabotage their clients’ cases because they think their clients are terrible people who have done terrible things.Report
Isn’t that the equivalent of spitting in the cake rather than saying “go somewhere else, I’m sure ‘Racehorse Cakes’ only cares about filthy lucre and they’d be happy to have you as a client”?Report
@Jaybird
It is a somewhat less obvious question, which probably has something to do with why it was so contentious.Report
I did plenty of jobs only for the money. I do my current job only for the money.Report
Yeah I mean when you get right down to it “job” means “something you do for money”.
I think my job actually does some good for the world, and that’s great, but I’m doing it for the paycheck, not the warm fuzzies.Report
BTW, yes, this is a good piece, and I’ve enjoyed the comment thread as well. There are a lot of issues here that I’d never thought about. I usually don’t say that something is a good piece unless I can’t think of anything else to say about it. (Andrew, if you happen to be reading this, I enjoyed your piece about the rock drummer. There was no heated debate in the comment section, but it was a good read. We seem to have a new core group of writers on this site, and you guys have kept things interesting. This really is one of my favorite internet sites.)Report
Thank you Pinky, really appreciate that.Report
Thank you! I like it here too.Report
“I haven’t heard anything indicating that Weinstein’s case will involve difficult issues of law, necessitating the presence of an elite team.”
Of course it will involve difficult issues of law, that’s why he was hired. The prosecution doesn’t get to decide what all of the issues are.Report
One reason to pay big money to get big-time lawyers is to precisely to *make* issues of law more difficult to resolve. I mean, for some reason people just don’t want to go to jail.Report
Just to back it up a bit, the reason for a team of lawyers, preferably with different backgrounds, is to have more brains spotting issues. Given the Professor’s background in reversing wrongful convictions, he’s probably there primarily to, to give attention to the appellate angle.Report
Great piece, Em.
I liked that interview a lot when it came out. Recently, after some idiot went and let himself be interviewed by Chotiner, and of course came off like a huge idiot, someone asked why people are interviewed by Chotiner. But the thing is when someone is able to do a good job accounting for themselves, Chotiner really brings that out, too.
That’s exactly what I thought happened in the interview with Prof. Sullivan. There was some stuff there that came across as weird [1], but where before I’d had some doubts about the whole faculty dean thing as a good idea, I was impressed at how he seemed really interested in the students, even the ones who were mad at him, and wanted to take this as an opportunity to teach them.
Contrast that with his comments about the administration, which were scathing.
I wish we would get more of that in these Campus Culture War blow-ups. Yes, students should learn how to deal with a diverse range of views and to understand things like the distinction between a lawyer and their client.
But they’re students. If they knew that already, they wouldn’t have to learn it.
[1] Was his caginess about why he joined Weinstein’s defense a typical lawyer thing?Report
I think his caginess was appropriate. What could he have said there? “I took the case because I believe in his innocence,” would not have played well. “I took the case because they want to present xyz defense, which I happen to be an expert at,” would give away strategy and be highly inappropriate. “I took it for the money/prestige/publicity…” would get him excoriated (see: this comment section).
And yes, I do think lawyers speak in vague terms. We have to be so careful with our language, not to violate privilege, not to put words in our client’s mouths (Hi Rudy G.!), not to make a representation we are not authorized to make, to follow our rules of professional responsibility regarding making public statements about cases, etc.Report
To me the issue with the campus blow-ups has never been the kids, it’s been the adults who enable, encourage, and fail to correct the kids.Report
Yes. I (obviously) think that’s a much more sensible view, and also why so much of the back-and-forth over seems moral-panicky to me.
There’s so much focus on the kids today and their shortcomings, and so little on the fact that the kids today are kids today and if their education is lacking, we should be asking questions of their educators.Report
This.
Kids always be kids. Part of being an adult is helping kids to understand what they are doing wrong and why it is wrong.Report
There is a lot of heat on Richard Sullivan representing Weinstein because of the very political nature of the accusations against Weinstein. Weinstein is seen not only as an individual, powerful man who did these reprehensible and atrocious crimes against women but as a representative of an entire system against women. The belief is that if Weinstein walks, the entire MeToo movement is lost. Therefore, the goal is to make things as hard as possible on Weinstein.Report
I truly enjoyed this piece, Em. When I studied CRJ law, one of the biggest complaints from attorneys is the back log of cases, and judicial discretion. Everyone has the right to an attorney, and I think now with outspoken detractors, activists our presumptions on how the law works, whether on social media or out in the real world-we tend to get carried away with dramatic effect before facts.
Twitter law isn’t real law so I’m told unless it comes from the experts. I’m not a lawyer, but I do write about them in my books. And to this day, how all of you breeze through a one thousand page contract within ten minutes just fascinates me to no end.
This is why I couldn’t become a lawyer. The defense of the guilty is too difficult for me to comprehend. I hold mad respect for anyone that can do so.
Even the ambulance chasers of Nevada. 👍🏻Report
A fine piece and I agree with it unreservedly. Young people being idiots, alas, is heightened in visibility and potency by todays trends.Report
All lawyers should be allowed to represent their clients in peace, full stop. (Well, maybe certain stops.)
But I have seen this argument extended to where the choice of whom to represent and tactics used have been extended to being out-of-bounds for consideration in even *relative* fitness/preferability for office. “He’s a lawyer, he was just doing his job!”
If you’re just trying to do your job, great, just do your job. If you want to be my DA, mayor, governor, president — no, if you defended *those guys* when you could have done this other, better work, and meanwhile your opponent *did the better work*, I’m going to take that into account, even if it was all lawyer work.Report
Why? Why does my choice of client mean I shouldn’t be in one of those positions? It is a vital job. A thankless job. It doesn’t mean I am a bad person, a morally corrupt person, or a villain. I am not my client. I am not condoning the alleged actions of my client. I am not a criminal. Why am I unfit for office, in your opinion?
Maybe the prosecutor’s office wasn’t hiring and the PD’s office was. It does not make the former prosecutor a better person or a better candidate than the former defense attorney. (FWIW, I’ve done both. I started out an assistant prosecutor.)Report
So you really think that *no matter what an attorney’s career has consisted of* it should be treated the same in assessing the contributions that make him *particularly* fit for being entrusted with the few roles of power and leadership that people compete for the privilege of holding that purely for the purpose of serving the public?Report
If a doctor runs, will you check into how many times he healed or saved the life of a murderer or other terrible person?
You haven’t yet articulated for me how a career of representing accused criminals makes me (defense attorneys generally) unfit for office. Why you think it reflects on me (them) personally.
If they did their job unethically, illegally, dishonestly, fine. But that’s not what we are talking about.Report
In the 19th century, there was a view, at times the majority view, that lawyer’s were empowered only as moral agents for their clients and it was unprofessional for a lawyer to advance legal positions that fail to do justice to all parties. The commonplace expression of this view was that a lawyer must not assert a statute of limitations defense against an honest debt, for to do so would make the lawyer “a partner in his knavery.” In essence, the lawyer was expected to pass moral judgments on potential clients, determining whether they were worthy of access to the legal system.
The opposing view, associated with Whig lawyers, came to dominate. That view was that lawyer is to suspend personal judgment of the potential client, and permit the court seems to decide the matter. The most important function of the legal system was to resolve disputes in an orderly fashion. The Whig lawyer’s view appeared self-serving in taking any and all business, and utilizing tricks (like statutes of limitations) to wreck injustice. But the Whig view won out.
Lincoln was obviously an example of a Whig lawyer; he took a case on behalf of a slave-owner (who already had an attorney) seeking to maintain his peculiar property interest. He lost, but it was a hard case and it ended up establishing a point of law going forward.Report
Just chiming in to support the piece. My days doing CDL were short but I still consider the experience formative. Among them was helping a senior partner write an appeal on behalf of a defendant convicted of a brutal murder. I have no regrets. Our system is better for having people zealously representing even the most reviled and no lawyer who does it ought to be ashamed or cowed by mobs, whatever their motivation.Report
Great piece. I think criminal defense lawyers do all of us a great service.Report
I admit, if I found out that there was a lawyer who defended corrupt DAs, I might make some snap judgments in my head about them.Report
Congrats, you may have found the one subgroup that can make me waffle in my “zealous defense for all” conviction. No pun intended.Report
If he defends Weinstein in court, he’s doing his duty to the law and the justice system. But what if he makes a public statement about how Weinstein is a perfectly innocent man, the victim of a smear campaign, and all his accusers are lying or deluded? I’ve heard the attorneys for the high-profile accused make similar claims many times. From my point of view, that’s reprehensible and just gives lawyers a bad name.Report
Normally, I’d agree with you, but since DAs like to try cases in the court of public opinion, the accused should get to do the same.Report
A defense attorney going before the camera’s to proclaim the innocence of their client the way Mike describes doesn’t serve any legal purpose. The motivation is either PR for the client, or self-promotion on the part of the lawyer. Both are unseemly, regardless of whether prosecutors try cases in the court of public opinion. Of course, Weinstein hired Lisa Bloom to protect/defend his reputation, so obviously the line between a lawyer being advocate before the judge and advocate before the media has already been blurred.
Come to think of it, why isn’t Lisa Bloom defending him???Report
Sullivan’s claim that he is unaware of any criminal defendant who has power in the system is an odd one given how much power rich criminal defendants enjoy. Jeffrey Epstein comes immediately to mind.
That isn’t to say that Sullivan should be attacked for defending Weinstein, but it does seem odd to suggest that all criminal defendants are treated equally.Report
Actually, Weinstein is a good example too. He was repeatedly given the kids’ glove treatment by prosecutors including Cyrus Vance Jr. until reporting forced his story out into the open. He certainly wasn’t the treated the way he would have been had he been, let’s say, not Harvey Weinstein.Report
While I agree with this post and find it well written, as always, there’s the unfortunate fact that most of those who in theory agree with you will change their minds when the wrong client is defended. For them, it’s an argument of convenience.
I shouldn’t say “for them,” because I’m guilty of it, too. I have, done it in the past.
It’s the type of argument that people will use when it’s convenient and abandon when it’s not. You’re not doing that. But some do. And, again, I may very well do that, too.Report
I know I’m late to the game here, and perhaps a bit under the influence of a mood enhancing chemical or two.
But.
FUCKIN’ A.Report