All Things Nuclear, Part I
This is the first post in a series. This took a significant amount of time to write (most of the research had been done previously), so don’t expect these to come with a low delta between posts.
We’re going to start with The Bomb, we’ll get to Nuclear Power in subsequent posts.
First, an important disclaimer. I am not a nuclear physicist, nor have I worked with actual nuclear weapons in any capacity. This is obviously not expert testimony, this is merely a summary of publicly available information together with some of my own assumptions regarding capabilities. Obviously anyone “in the know” can find errors below, if you have any additional information that can be provided and you’re not legally or ethically forbidden from providing it, please do so in the comments. I’m offering this because a few people have asked for it, and because I believe that most of the public is under-informed regarding the scope of this subject and its potential impact.
All of the below information is declassified. Wikipedia links are provided for a lot of the below, but interested members of the public can also read the text of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, the Strategic Offensive Reductions Treaty (SORT), and New START, which is the current arms treaty in place between the U.S. and Russia.
One can assume that it is possible that nobody is following these treaties entirely, but the one glaring difficulty with nuclear weapons is that it is impossible to test these turkeys without lots of immediate, recognizable side effects that are easily measured by the scientific community. You can’t set them off in the atmosphere, under ground, under water, or even in outer space without someone, somewhere, being able to know within a pretty small delta that you just triggered a nuclear device. You can’t enrich uranium without the proper equipment (and lots of it), a lot of time, and a supply of uranium… all of which is not precisely easy to do without someone noticing. (edited to add) Density Duck points out that if one includes modeling in “nuclear testing”, then sufficiently advanced nuclear-equipped nations can indeed continue testing without setting off nuclear bombs. This has merit, as a point: certainly the U.S., Russia, the UK, France, and China have enough empirical data to continue nuclear development via modeling. It is possible that both Pakistan and India cut this mustard. However, the NNSA (National Nuclear Security Administration) has argued that modeling is insufficient to provide for the long term viability for the U.S. nuclear weapon arsenal. Since they have a vested interest in supporting actual testing, take this with your own evaluation.(/edit)
Since these are the sorts of devices that (a) nations want to have but typically not use and (b) nobody wants to play around with building by the seat-of-your-pants, one of my assumptions is that it is significantly unlikely that anyone has greatly surpassed the capabilities that are reflected by their test programs.
Stealing plans wouldn’t be enough. You have to build the thing, and you won’t really know if you’ve done it right until you use it or test it.
Takeaway Summary
If you’re of a mind to look at the below with a TL/DR: unless we go to war with China, it is pretty unlikely in this writer’s opinion that a nuclear device in excess of “ones of kilotons” will be detonated by any agency, terrorist or state or otherwise, in a hostile action. The practical difficulty of acquiring a megaton device is quite high (all hyperbole to the contrary, Russia is not handing out working RT-2PM Topol warheads to random nations), and the traceability of all known nuclear weapons is also quite high (so if Russia *did* sell a working RT-2PM Topol warhead and someone set the thing off, it can be determined that the source of the nuclear weapon was Russia. This does not jibe with a strategy of Mutually Assured Destruction).
Even the potential insecurity of Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal is not quite as worrisome as you might currently surmise, as they have a small enough number of warheads to notice rather quickly if one goes missing.
More below the fold…
Yield and Scale
Before we go any farther, it is immensely important for everyone to understand the differences in scale for these devices.
The largest conventional explosion on record was either the Minor Scale test at the White Sands Missile Range, or the British Bang, depending upon whether or not you regard the Guinness Book as authoritative. At Minor Scale, the U.S. military detonated 4.8 kilotons of ANFO (the same explosive you see the Mythbusters play around with occasionally, albeit a much, much bigger pile of the stuff). This rated about a 4.2 kT explosion. At the British Bang, several thousand tons of conventional explosives left over from WWII were disposed of in the simplest manner possible. For the easily distracted, here’s a list of other non-nuclear explosions.
At the short end, you have these little guys, about as small as one can make a nuclear device. The Davy Crockett had a yield between 10 to 20 tons of TNT; somewhere between two and eight times as powerful as the bomb Timothy McVeigh used in the Oklahoma City bombing. They were designed for infantrymen to use as bazooka shells, which gives you an idea of exactly how small they had to be to not vaporize the trooper launching the thing. For comparison, the largest conventional bomb currently used in the U.S. arsenal is the Massive Ordinance Air Blast bomb, which clocks in at 11 tons in yield. Note that things at this end are considerably smaller than the Minor Scale explosion, above.
At the biggest end, you have the Tsar Bomba, the largest nuclear bomb ever detonated, with a yield of 50 megatons of TNT. The Tsar Bomba was too big to be mounted on an ICBM, weighing in at a massive 60,000 lbs. Practically speaking, no device of this scale was ever going to be used against a military target; it would simply be impossible to build enough of them to equip a suitable number of bombers that could penetrate a target nation’s air defenses.
In between, you have all of the more practical weapons that have been built on a large scale. Most of these devices fall in the 1-10 megaton range. China, for example, has never detonated a nuclear device in excess of 4 megatons… at least, not as far as I’ve been able to determine from the public record. South Africa only ever built gun-type nuclear devices and never detonated a thermonuclear device. India has tested thermonuclear devices, but nothing in the megaton range. Pakistan’s nuclear program has not been conclusively established to be thermonuclear; they claim a yield of 30-35 kT but estimates from seismologists studying the below-ground detonations rate them at around an upper bound of 12 kT. France has tested devices in the megaton range (2.6 mT), as has the UK (3 mT). The North Koreans have detonated a device that has been estimated to be between 0.55 kT and 12 kT.
Almost all of the current arsenal of U.S. nuclear devices is composed of W87 warheads mounted on Minuteman III missiles with a yield of ~475 kT, B61 bombs that range up to a theoretical 340 kT (modified versions of these are the “bunker buster” nukes you may have read about in the news in the last decade), and the larger B83 bombs that range up to 1.2 mT, and the W80 cruise missile warheads that have between a 5 and 150 kT yield. (edited to add) Peter points out in the comments that I didn’t include sub-launched nukes in this list. That’s correct, an oversight, but the W88 nukes are 475 kT, for the record (/edit). Random movie trivia: the two bombs stolen by John Travolta in Broken Arrow were B83 bombs. Russian warheads that are still available by treaty fall into a similar range. The list of operative nuclear devices is public. As you can see from those figures, the combined throw-weight of all of the devices in mT is far exceeded by the number of devices themselves, indicating by basic algebra that the devices themselves are on average less than a megaton in explosive yield.
To see what your actual effect radius is for various nuclear weapon yields, this web app is handy. You can choose your yield and location (Los Angeles), and move the blast radius around on a satellite map, to see what the impact would be in practice.
A ground-burst 1 kT weapon set off in Los Angeles would be devestating, but as you can see a nuclear explosion of that size at LAX wouldn’t do much to the rest of the city, or indeed anything even as close as Compton (although fallout would still be a concern). Indeed, even up to a 10kT range, the overall damage (in economic terms) would probably be much less than the Katrina or Galveston hurricanes. The human cost in lives lost would be dramatically higher, of course, but probably not on the scale to dwarf, say, the Haiti earthquake. A 1 mT device, on the other hand, detonated by an airplane at a few thousand feet over downtown Los Angeles would level a good portion of the city and set a nearly uncontrollable firestorm off that would probably engulf most of the basin.
Engineering
There are five types of nuclear devices that may be used as weapons. More reading on nuclear bomb engineering here.
The Hiroshima bomb was a gun-type nuclear device where a conventional explosive propells a fissile plug (Uranium 235 in this particular case) into a target of the same material. The explosive effect of the Little Boy bomb was about 13 kilotons of TNT, or 13kT – putting it just about 3 times bigger than the “Minor Scale” test with conventional explosives, above. These devices have a fairly low yield, and require a decent amount of enriched uranium to make; however, they’re fairly stupid-simple and thus have a low engineering barrier to entry – given enough nuclear fuel, just about any reasonably cautious entrepenuer could build one in his backyard using existing tools and equipment. In addition to being used in bombs, the gun-type nuclear device was a model for some U.S. nuclear artillery shells. There were three types of these shells: the W9, which was retired in 1957; the W19, which was retired in 1963; and the W33 which was retired in 1992.
The second type of device, an implosion device, crushes a subcritical sphere of fissile material until its density increases to the point where the device hits critical mass and (in technical terms) goes kablooie. These have a higher yeild than their gun-type cousins, but require much more in the way of mechanical precision to manufacture, as both the sphere and the explosives that induce the implosion have to be engineered properly for the device to explode with efficiency. If you machine the sphere improperly or place the explosives incorrectly, only part of the sphere will achieve enough density to go critical, and the rest of the nuclear fuel will be ejected by the resulting explosion before it can contribute to the overall energy of the device. There were nuclear artillery shells made with implosion warheads, in addition to bombs and missile warheads. The Fat Man bomb dropped on Nagasaki had a yeild of 21kT, for reference.
The third type of device is a higher engineered version of the second, which roughly doubles yield.
The fourth is the big daddy, a Teller-Ulam thermonuclear warhead, wherein a nuclear device is itself used to trigger a second-stage explosion. This is actually something of a misnomer, as you have a chemical explosion with a conventional explosive triggering a nuclear explosion which in turn triggers a thermonuclear explosion – so technically they’re three-stage explosions, but I digress. France, the UK, China, the U.S., Russia, and India have all demonstrated this capability, neither South Africa, Pakistan, or North Korea has done so. Israel, of course, is an unknown quantity.
The fifth is the dirty bomb; a conventional explosive surrounded by nuclear material, which will eject that material to cover a wide area, or a badly-engineered bomb of the first or second type that fizzles, or fails to reach full critical mass. The tricky part here is getting enough “boom” to spread out your radioactive material with the greatest area of effect, and carrying around enough radioactive material to spread around to have a major effect.
This stuff is, after all, hazardous to your health.
Use and Risk
Now, let’s talk about how that collection of things that go “boom” can translate into something actually going off in a populated area.
There are basically four types of nuclear attacks that can occur. The first is a large, technologically advanced, thermonuclear hydrogen bomb mounted on a missile. The second is the same, but in bomb form. The third would be an improvised nuclear bomb, probably made by cannibalizing one of the previous two; most likely not a hydrogen bomb but “just” a nuclear device. The last would be a dirty bomb of some sort; something that takes radioactive material (probably just waste) and uses a conventional explosive to disburse it.
The first and second (if it is sufficiently airborne when it goes off) gives you the full range of effects: the fireball, the blast wave, a decent amount of fallout, and the EMP. This Wikipedia page lists the range of effects from nuclear blasts.
These are the sort that are stuck at the end of a ICBM or delivered by a strategic bomber, pretty much only available via five major governments: surplus/stolen from the U.S., China, France, the UK, or the former USSR. India and Pakistan couldn’t duplicate this effect on U.S. soil using an ICBM (they don’t have the range), but theoretically could detonate a device like this from a conventional aircraft.
Currently the U.S. has only one major member of its arsenal, the Minuteman III. The Minuteman II and the Peacekeeper (MX) missiles have been retired. The Minuteman III that are still in service have a W78 warhead that has a yield of about 340KT. The W62 warheads that they replaced had a yield of about 170KT. The W62s were retired in 2010, so it’s possible (but of course unlikely) that one could be misplaced.
You can see a whole list of nuclear weapons on wikipedia, along with country of origin. Following the links will give you the yield range, size of the warhead, etc.
This is the Federation of American Scientists bible on nuclear effects, showing what would happen if a nuclear device was detonated over Detroit or Leningrad. They describe the effects of both a ground and an air burst in thorough detail.
Excerpts from here :
Surface Burst. A surface burst is an explosion in which a weapon is detonated on or slightly above the surface of the earth so that the fireball actually touches the land or water surface. Under these conditions, the area affected by blast, thermal radiation, and initial nuclear radiation will be less extensive than for an air burst of similar yield, except in the region of ground zero where destruction is concentrated. In contrast with air bursts, local fallout can be a hazard over a much larger downwind area than that which is affected by blast and thermal radiation.
High Altitude Burst. A high altitude burst is one in which the weapon is exploded at such an altitude (above 30 km) that initial soft x-rays generated by the detonation dissipate energy as heat in a much larger volume of air molecules. There the fireball is much larger and expands much more rapidly. The ionizing radiation from the high altitude burst can travel for hundreds of miles before being absorbed. Significant ionization of the upper atmosphere (ionosphere) can occur. Severe disruption in communications can occur following high altitude bursts. They also lead to generation of an intense electromagnetic pulse (EMP) which can significantly degrade performance of or destroy sophisticated electronic equipment. There are no known biological effects of EMP; however, indirect effects may result from failure of critical medical equipment.
A high altitude nuclear weapon will have an EMP effect over an **extremely** large area. Starfish Prime was a nuclear test in 1962 that detonated a relatively small nuclear weapon (1.4 MT) at 250 miles altitude, in space. The EMP messed up electronics in Hawaii, almost 900 miles away from the detonation point. Note that this sort of a detonation is nearly impossible for anyone without space capabilities. Potential nuclear terrorist angle for a movie coming out in 2025 -> nuclear terrorists hijack Virgin Galactic flight! My idea, you saw it here first, Hollywood!
Who launches the attack is important in this calculus, too. A terrorist organization is probably going to want a ground burst, for maximum photo op. A state actor, on the other hand, would probably want to detonate a high-altitude device to affect as much of the U.S. as possible via EMP. Regardless of what the attacker wants, of course, there are practical considerations. Detonating a device on an aircraft is probably very traceable to country of origin. A missile, of course, is right out if you don’t want people to know for certain who fired the attack. Backpack nukes (cannibalized nuclear triggers off of thermonuclear devices, a-la the movie Peacemaker or something of that nature) are man-portable but anything bigger than that is probably easily traceable to a point of origin.
Removing a trigger from a thermonuclear device and detonating it as a weapon itself is highly inefficient, as the triggers from thermonuclear devices are designed to give off most of their energy effect as soft X-rays (to trigger the secondary bomb), not kinetic energy. It would certainly produce a boom, but even with a moderate amount of research I’ve been unable to find out how big of a boom it would be. NOTE: there is a severe engineering difficulty here. Nuclear weapons are designed to be tamper- and fail-safe for a large number of readily apparent reasons. Contrary to the movies, removing a trigger from a thermonuclear warhead would almost certainly turn it into an inactive brick, so you’d have to remove the fissile material and re-engineer the bomb itself. This is not a trivial project. A nuclear physicist could probably crunch the appropriate numbers for us. Since the device isn’t designed for maximum efficiency, however, it’s certainly safe to say that tens of kilotons would be on the very, very high end of possible yield. The Castle Bravo explosion at Bikini Atoll, the first hydrogen bomb test by the U.S., occurred in 1954. The declassified info on U.S. nuclear bomb tests leads me to believe that the nuclear triggers for the Castle Bravo test were probably developed during Operation Ranger, where the yields ranged from 0.5 kT to 22 kT. This is bolstered by the fact that Ranger’s outputs were considerably smaller than the outputs of Operation Sandstone, its predecessor.
Addendums
Here’s Trinity, the first device detonated during the Manhattan Project. A absolute worst-case homemade “terrorist bomb” would probably look something like this, if it actually went off. A more practical terrorist bomb would have a significantly lower yield.
Oh boy oh boy!Report
Amazing.Report
Wow. That was pretty damn impressive.Report
Though no Nuclear Winter, this book always makes me assume that the effects of a blast from a nuclear weapon would only be part of the cost: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0312425848/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=thiamelif-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=0312425848Report
I wanted to write more about fallout, but frankly the damn thing was taking too long as it was.
An air-burst nuclear weapon doesn’t generate much fallout, since it doesn’t pick up a lot of dirt and debris in the fireball to be irradiated.
Chernobyl’s effects are still a topic of a lot of research and/or debate, as is Hiroshima’s.
Computing the amount of fallout due to a nuclear weapon, and the epidemiological effects of that radiation on the local community is going to be difficult until you have a fairly solid body of longitudinal data.
Fallout and radiation, though, aren’t quite as scary as people are predisposed to think. From the Chernobyl page:
In the aftermath of the accident, 237 people suffered from acute radiation sickness (ARS), of whom 31 died within the first three months.[10][90] Most of these were fire and rescue workers trying to bring the accident under control, who were not fully aware of how dangerous exposure to the radiation in the smoke was. Whereas, in the World Health Organization’s 2006 report of the Chernobyl Forum expert group on the 237 emergency workers who were diagnosed with ARS, ARS was identified as the cause of death for 28 of these people within the first few months after the disaster. There were no further deaths identified, in the general population affected by the disaster, as being caused by ARS. Of the 72,000 Russian Emergency Workers being studied, 216 non-cancer deaths are attributed to the disaster, between 1991 and 1998. The latency period for solid cancers caused by excess radiation exposure is 10 or more years; thus at the time of the WHO report being undertaken, the rates of solid cancer deaths were no greater than the general population. Some 135,000 people were evacuated from the area, including 50,000 from Pripyat.
Bold emphasis mine.
216 deaths out of 72,000 direct exposures isn’t an astronomically high death rate and predisposes me to be critical of the studies that put Chernobyl’s death toll at a very high range.Report
If somebody blew up a device on the roof of a, oh, 10 story building… would that still count as a ground burst?Report
Yes, as far as the simulator goes… depending on the yield.
Depending on the size of the device, basically, “ground burst” vs “air burst” is “how close/does the fireball touch the ground”. The Tsar Bomba was set off at a height of 4 kilometers, but the fireball was 8 km in diameter. It would have counted almost as a ground burst if the shockwave from the detonation itself hadn’t pushed the fireball *up*.
That might blow your mind a tad.Report
So, like, even changing that to the Sears Tower wouldn’t change that from a ground burst.
Damns.Report
Ruining your NaNoWriMo idea? Put it on a plane.Report
But how would I explain how it got past the TSA???Report
Rent a Lear.Report
You could set it off on a hot air balloon, too.Report
They’re too busy confiscating nail clippers and bottled water to notice?Report
But how would I explain how it got past the TSA???
Divide it into 3 ounce sections and disguise them as toothpaste.Report
A true story of the TSA:
Flying home last weekend, I was randomly selected for extra attention. Apparently there’s a lot of discretion in what that means, because after determining that I didn’t look like a threat, the official contented himself with a close inspection of my cell phone.Report
I forgot to mention: nuclear devices made by the U.S. (and presumably by the former Soviets) are designed to be tamper-fail.
That is, if you tried to take apart a W78 warhead, it would “brick” itself, becoming inoperative. So the “backpack bomber” scenario would probably require someone to disassemble a bomb and then re-assemble the fissile material into a form factor that would be capable of generating critical mass.
This is much more likely to result in a fizzle (and perhaps a “dirty bomb” working scenario) than a nuclear explosion of significant magnitude.Report
I wonder how foolproof this actually is, and how much it’s just “it would be really, really hard.”Report
Generally, I’d consider it significantly hard enough to basically render the process un-doable by anyone who doesn’t already have the know-how (and the tools) to replicate it independently.
If you can build one, you can probably take another nation’s apart and muck with it. If you can’t, you probably don’t have the knowledge necessary to take one apart without bricking it.
You can still learn quite a bit by bricking it, of course. Given enough time and enough smart people, you could certainly re-engineer it.Report
I’ve studied enough security that “tamper-proof” makes me laugh, but “tamper-resistant” is usually good enough for what it’s trying to resist.
When it comes to nukes, “tamper-resistant” is, “We don’t want anyone playing with this thing and have it still be operable”.
I don’t have much insight into the Russian military, so their idea of securing their nuclear arsenal might be different from ours. But ours is pretty freakin’ paranoid, on a scale of how paranoid things can get.Report
If it’s more complicated to successfully tamper with the weapon than it is to build a new one, then it’s “tamper-proof”.Report
I’m not so sure. It’s more complicated to put together a car with parts from other cars than it is to buy a new one, but if you don’t have the means to do the latter you can still have the ability to do the former.
Or maybe a better example is counterfeiting money. Figuring out how to create a system that copies the original is more complicated than just printing the original; but if you don’t have access to everything the printers of the originals do you choose to create that system.Report
Neither of those is particularly good examples, because the raw materials are rather more plentiful and the engineering is considerably
lessmore complicated.At least, in the case of a thermonuclear device. A simple gun-type nuke isn’t terribly complicated, but the raw material is still hard to come by.
It would be difficult to make a gun-type nuke out of the spare parts from a disassembled implosion device, though.Report
Yep; the complexity of a nuclear weapon comes from making it small (and, therefore, lightweight.) Remember that, in the 1940s, a whole B-29 was needed to carry a single 20-kt weapon. These days you can fit dozens of kilotons into a bazooka rocket.
There’s also some degree of improvement in explosive yield. I believe that less than ten percent of the fissile material in the Little Boy and Fat Man weapons actually reacted; the rest just got spread around.Report
You can fit dozens of kilotons into a bazooka rocket? You’re going to have to point me at a link for that one.
I get 2 kT for a 90 lb device being the smallest nuke hitting kTage range.
Gun-type devices are all going to dump a lot of their reaction mass as waste.Report
Fair point; “some”, not “dozens”.Report
> If it’s more complicated to successfully
> tamper with the weapon than it is to
> build a new one, then it’s “tamper-proof”.
More or less this; although one can tamper with a hydrogen bomb and still get a usable dirty weapon or low-grade device out of the deal. So if that’s all you need to make your point, it’s not quite “tamper proof”.
Let’s just say I don’t think it’s very easy to make a very dangerous weapon by using a scrounged nuke as a source of either data or technology.Report
Fixed a broken tag.Report
In your coverage of the US nuclear arsenal you neglect the naval portion of the triad. You write “Currently the U.S. has only one major member of its arsenal, the Minuteman III” and “Almost all of the current arsenal of U.S. nuclear devices is composed of W87 warheads mounted on Minuteman III missiles.”
However, there are 14 Ohio-class submarines designed to carry and launch the Trident II missile that carries the W88 warhead. I haven’t thought much about this, but I’d guess there are about as many W88s out there as W87s. This would be knowable via treaty documentation, I imagine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohio_class_submarine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trident_missile
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W88Report
Edited; thanks Peter.Report
Elegantly written Pat. Thank you for putting the time in. Pure tonic for the nuclear hysteria that rampages about on both the left and right.
I’ve always been fascinated by nuclear, it strikes me as the closest to real life magic that we’ve practically gotten. I look forward to you getting to civilian nuclear power.Report
Thanks.
I think I need to do a minor follow-up on fallout, since fallout is one of the sources of nuclear hysteria.Report
One question: Given Iran’s projected desire to set off one of those “EMP” (or whatever) devices you so eloquently wrote of, do you think the US should strike first and nuke as many of their installations as we know of, or wait until they launch?Report
The bunker buster bombs linked earlier are of debatable use against the Iranian nuclear facilities, as far as I’ve read, Bob. Here’s one link among many.
It’s also going to generate a very large volume of fallout, unlike an air burst nuke, because the thing will go off in the ground. Since we have a bunch of American troops next door (and downwind), this might be somewhat problematic.
Since Iran doesn’t have a really robust delivery mechanism, I doubt their propaganda matches their real intentions when it comes to weaponized nuclear power. But to really make a judgment on that, I’d need a much higher security clearance than I’m ever likely to possess.
My gut impulse would be to say this is not a good idea, but from a civilian death toll standpoint, it’s probably less than regime change via invasion. Not that this is a great selling point.
Personally, that’s a pretty high barrier to justify preemptive military action, to me.Report
Feh, if we seriously were worried about Iran firstly managing to make a bomb and then smuggling the bloody thing over here and then detonating it over the US we could solve the whole problem with little concern. Publicly invest a bit of the DoD’s bloated budget into EMP-proofing the military infrastructure, then have Hillary offhandedly mention that anyone who tried to EMP us could be expected to be nuked back to the stone age for their troubles (though I suppose the Mullahs would consider the stone age an great leap forward so lets say twigs and berries age instead).Report
And that’s assuming the the DoD’s infrastructure is not already EMP-proofed incidentally, most of it was built during the nuke scares in mid last century. I’m pretty sure EMP was a concern then. Either way it’d cost less than even the cost of shipping some infantry over to Iran let alone invading the poor benighted buggers. Hell I doubt there’s anything the Mullahs fantasize more about (other than goats) than the Great Satan invading and giving the Iranian public someone to loathe more than their own government.Report
North and Pat, correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the Iranians had a decent rocket that might be launchable from a specially constructed merchant vessel off our shore? And, while our military may or may not be emp proof, I’m surely going to miss a few of the Rush Limbaugh radio shows, assuming our commerical people aren’t up to snuff? Yes, no?Report
Bob, assuming that Iran has the capabilities to go to war with us using the weapons you describe, why do you believe they would?Report
Because of the goof-ball Mullahs our North was speaking of. These Muslims are wacko’s, more deranged than the American Left, I think.Report
“These Muslims are wacko’s, more deranged than the American Left”
Well, surely they’re not THAT bad.Report
“Well, surely they’re not THAT bad.”
You mean not bad enough to fly planes into the twin towers and massacre 3,000 Americans? A dead Muslim won’t try to kill you.Report
Bob, I’ll respond more fully when I’m not on a mobile device, but in short:
I don’t think this is a probable scenario. Detonating a nuclear device inside the borders of a nuclear power is national suicide unless you have extreme deniability *and* a sufficient arsenal to provide a MAD scenario.Report
What, I think, you don’t understand is that the Muslim is neither a Russian or a Christian. MAD, does not hunt for the Muslim, they could care less. They have a different perspective on death and dying than the West.Report
This might be true, Bob, but they said the same thing about the Japanese.
Turns out, they weren’t all crazy enough to die rather than give up, after all.
In any event, “they’re crazy enough to use them if they get them ’cause they’re Muslim” hasn’t panned out. Pakistan has more crazy Muslims than Iran (if we’re measuring crazy by “willing to engage in what Pat thinks of as nihilism”), and no crazy fundamentalist nihilist Pakistani Muslim has gotten their hands on a nuke yet.Report
To be fair, it took the closest thing there is to Wrath of God to make them surrender.Report
Aha. JamesK. Now we’re getting somewhere.Report
Well, we actually killed more people firebombing Tokyo (not to mention the rest of the urban centers list in Japan) than we did with Little Boy.
I’m not so sure that an extended conventional bombing campaign wouldn’t have turned the same trick as a pair of nukes.
Only alternate reality knows for certain.Report
you only had one person to convince, and that’s the emperor. Given Japan’s history of sending people out to steal new tech from America/Western Countries, I believe that nuclear weapons were more potent propaganda than any mere conventional strike would have been.
That said, I’d argue a decent chemical war might have gotten the Emperor to give up.Report
The stoic Japanese would have survived extended bombing much like the stoic British did. ONE massive bomb struck terror in everyone’s heart, since they were easily able to imagine whole squadrons of those things wending their way.
As for nihilistic Muslims getting ahold of Pakistan’s weapons, don’t think they wouldn’t love to. Fortunately the military there for better or worse likes those boomers in the vault a lot more than out in the wild. Enough of a regime change might change their minds on that however.
Nukes are strange weapons. They have more value /waiting/ to be used than used. The countries (other than Iran) around Israel always have to wonder if Israel would launch her nuke(s) – that wonder changes things. Opponents of the US don’t wonder, they assume we won’t launch 99.99999999999% of the time.Report
WS’s analysis on Comment NO. 48 is spot on, while the beloved Kimmi is obviously the intellectual product of our unionized teacher’s cult.Report
I wrote a pretty exhaustive article on the topic a while back. It was – in fact – my first blog post ever:
http://www.theinductive.com/blog/the-end-of-the-war.html
I’ve gotten sloppier and lazier since then.Report
Back to Bob:
I’m not sure what your proposition is, here, Mr. Cheeks. Are you making a policy proposal or a moral argument? I’m not sure how anybody can make a moral case that preemptive nuclear attack is justifiable; since you take such umbrage at abortion I’m not sure how you can suss out a position that nuking the crap out of another nation on the basis of propaganda is justifiable. I’d love to read it, though, just to see how much of a pretzel you can make out of your moral framework 🙂
From a policy proposal standpoint: firing off a nuclear weapon, either as an act of aggression or retaliation, has occurred exactly twice in the history of the world, and those both occurred in rather exceptional circumstances. I don’t think we have enough data to make any sort of credible projections about the geopolitical ramifications of nuking Iran preemptively. We have no idea how other nations would react (excepting possibly Israel). We have very little idea how non-nation state groups would react. We have very little idea how our own populace would react, for that matter.
On the other hand, if Iran sets off a ~4kt device in the U.S., I can state that it’s pretty likely we can nuke the crap out of them (or just level the country with conventional weapons, for that matter) without anywhere near the geopolitical fallout.
I can’t do a risk analysis to compare “we nuke Iran to eliminate the possibility that they might attack us someday” with “we let Iran nuke us and then we vaporize the country”. Calling this out, in my opinion, one way or the other is then pretty much an act of political faith.
I don’t generally like nuking people on faith.Report
Why would we nuke their entire country and kill millions and millions of innocent Iranians who had nothing to do with the decision to set off a nuclear weapon inside the United States?
Especially when it’s only one small bomb.Report
Oh, I didn’t say we *would*.
We probably *could*, though.Report
If Iran nukes something, they must pay. Civilians will be involved even under best surgical practice, but under the rules of justice and ethics, their deaths are on the regime’s head.
One of our most ethical and wise dynamics is that if you rob a bank and the guard shoots a civilian by accident, it’s the robber who is morally and legally culpable, guilty of murder.
Even if his gun was unloaded…Report
Let’s say that as far as geopolitical reality goes, Tom, “proportional response” is likely going to occur, in the event nuclear terrorism occurs.
And the definition of “proportional” is going to be “significantly retributive to discourage anyone else from doing this”.Report
PatC, you done read my mind. Deterrence is only a chimera when it is one. My daddy only took the belt to me once: when I raised my hand to my mother.
I was 15 or so. Never did raise my hand to a woman again, ever. I’m sure my dad regrets [the necessity of] the belting in his way, but I am grateful to him.
Just as we regret Hiroshima. But Nanking hasn’t been raped since. In their way, the Japanese are grateful to us for their humbling, as I am to my dad.Report
Oooops—I was probably 12 or 13. I was in college by 16. Sorry. The story holds. I’d just got bigger than my mother and decided I wasn’t going to take her shit anymore, I reckon.Report
I have to be honest, Tom, I was surprised that the U.S. didn’t drop a pony nuke on Tora Bora after 9/11, airburst to prevent fallout.
One of the 5 kT W80s or thereabouts.
Or, at least, make a phone call to the Taliban to the extent of, “We want Osama bin Laden on a plane to the United States within 10 days, or we will fire a Tomahawk at our best guess as to his current location. We’ll continue playing whack-a-mole until public statements by Al Qaeda are no longer issued.”
We would have killed a damn sight smaller number of civilians than invading the country, and I imagine it’s possible that the regime would have changed internally a lot faster.
I can imagine all sorts of bad consequences, as well, mind you; but the discussion must have occurred.Report
PatC, we’re not at war with Afghanistan, but Pakistan, pop. 170 million Muslims, give or take a few.
Afghanistan was the “good war” if you recall, supported by most all of us as the harboring state of 9-11.
Pakistan is severely fucked up and big as hell. Who knew that bin Laden was hiding not in the frontiers of Waziristan, but
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/05/02/how-did-bin-laden-hide-just-yards-from-pakistan-military-academy/
The rest is just commentary. This remains a transnational problem.Report
I’d wager he wasn’t in Pakistan two weeks (or even a couple of months) after 9/11, Tom.
Who knows the route the guy took from wherever he was on 9/11 until he was killed in Abbottabad. Well, the guys who are digging through all those USB drives recovered in the raid will probably make a report that will be declassified in 15 years and we’ll have a pretty good guess, then.
Also: it wouldn’t surprise me if Osama had wound up on a plane somewhere if a nuke dropped on Afghanistan a month or so after 9/11, wherever he was at the time. As James K comments above, it’s the closest you’re going to get to the Wrath of God. There is nothing in the history of the world that says, “We’re not screwing around, no more” like a mushroom cloud.Report
Patrick,
just look at who went scurrying, when we downloaded the data. that’ll tell you a good deal about who got Bin Laden there. And taht’s more important than the route taken.Report
Pat, no I’m not advocating, just askin’. Re: nukes and war, well I’m thinking Christians are permitted to engage in ‘just’ wars. Being attacked and going to war with the attacker strikes me as a ‘just’ war. I was trying to get some sense of a nuke ground from someone who knows about nukes.
You are right that Muslims haven’t got the bomb, yet, other than the ones the Pakistani’s have, and I wonder why they haven’t wrapped one up and presented it to Al Qaeda?Report
Most likely because they’re not quite as insane as the righties like to put on they are. As Pat noted before nukes are extremely tracable. There’s really no such thing as an anonymous nuke.Report
True N-man, but Pakistan has a thing with India and a certain ‘western’ tradition that, say an Iran, Iraq, etc. don’t share. Given the chance the true believing Muslim would lite one off today, no problem getting volunteers.Report
That’s an assertion that’s neither provable nor disprovable since no “true believing Muslim” is in posession of nukes. It is important to note that the Iranians, muslim or no, are also Persian and have a long history of being pretty sensible and hard headed. Nothing the Mullas of Iran have done suggests they are suicidal and while they may be religious fanatics pretty much every time they’ve had to choose between their faith and material benefit for themselves they’ve chosen the latter.Report
Nukes are hardly necessary. Conventional bombing that takes out all of their electricity generating and transmission service should be sufficient. Every dam, every thermal power plant, every substation, every transmission line. Even a deeply-buried nuclear generating plant requires cooling, hence entry and exit points for either air or water. If you fill those points with rubble, the generator is effectively shut down. It may be possible in theory for a country to build nuclear weapons with no electricity except that generated on-site deep underground; in practice, it’s simply not going to happen.Report
For a bunch of books where (spoiler alert) some of these issues come up, you should really try Charlie Stross’ Merchant Princes series. They’re phenomenal.Report
Ahh, another Stross fan. The League is getting better and better all the time. 🙂Report
It’s entirely possible to test nuclear weapons without setting one off.
For one thing, that’s why they made supercomputers.
For another, there’s all kinds of ways to “not set one off”. You could set off the explosives with the fissile materials replaced by metal, and look at the resulting shape. You could set one off with insufficient amounts of fissile material, and monitor the “fizzle” that results.
Most of the “testing” that’s done these days is model validation. Our model says that thus-and-so will result from this-and-that initial conditions. The model also says that, if you change a small part of this-or-that, you get the earth-shattering kaboom. If the tests show that the model was right about this-or-that producing thus-and-so, then it’s probably right about the rest.Report
Yeah, Duck, but the reason we can use models is that we have a large body of test data to work with. This is a lot less useful of a technique if you’re working entirely from theory.
It’s possible that nations have a greater capability than is reflected by their test data, but I doubt the delta is significantReport
A more detailed response:
Duck, sometimes I think you read something until you get to the point where you think you have an objection, and then you state your objection. I’m not sure you’ve done much research to support the idea that a non-nuclear entity can develop nuclear weapons without testing. Have you?
Given that we’re just exchanging non-expert opinions here, I don’t have much grounds to dismiss your objection without more or less relying upon, “I haven’t read anything to make me believe this is a credible scenario, but the only counter I have is: nobody has set off a nuke at an enemy without trying it in testing first”.
If you have read something that provides some sort of convincing analysis that it is possible to engineer implosion devices (and/or thermonuclear ones) from supercomputers, I’d like to read it.Report
I would suspect that a gun type bomb is doable without testing after all the Hiroshima bomb was the first one of that type with no prior testing. How deliverable it might be is another question, but take a 6 inch gun, and a target fixed to the end and fire it, since the critical mass is in the range that 1/2 could be handled by a gun.Report
Sure.
These are extremely inefficient, though. You can’t get a mT blast out of one, and a tens of kT blast is a very difficult target as well.
You’re looking at something that’s probably in the range of Little Boy, in yield. Also about that, in size.
This limits your delivery capabilities, from a logistical standpoint.Report
Agreeded but a well placed Hiroshima type bomb, can still disrupt a lot of things. Put it on a ship and sail it into a harbor where the town is right by the harbor and boom. Yes you wont take out the entire metro area, but could kill and render the US burn treatment system non functional.Report
Please edit your OP to indicate that “the one glaring difficulty with nuclear weapons is that it is impossible to test these turkeys without lots of immediate, recognizable side effects that are easily measured by the scientific community” is referring to testing by nations that lack the technological sophistication to perform sub-scale or sub-critical testing for purposes of model validation.Report
Fair point, so edited.Report
Thank you, nicely done.Report
How accurate do you believe the reporting is?
If a non-state actor decided to test a nuclear weapon in Siberia, say…
Do you really think we’d hear about it?
Would Russia really want to admit that someone had tested a nuclear weapon without their consent?Report
Well yes Kimmi, the seismic monitors in various locations would do little jiggles and frankly Siberia would probably be one of ~the worst~ places to test a nuke on the DL since the US et all likely still has a bajillion legacy passive nuclear detection devices of all sorts pointed at the former USSR. Much better to test it, say, in the Sahara perhaps or Antarctica.Report
North,
I’m not saying the seismographs wouldn’t pick it up. I’m saying that you and the other shmucks wouldn’t hear about it.
(I’m not sourcing any info on this. take it or leave it — which is why it’s staying general, and indicating skepticism on my part.)Report
I’m sure I wouldn’t. I’m not DoD or a nuclear analyst. But the peeps in charge of worrying about various things nuclear would hear about it. And the Russians would sure as hell hear about it and then the shit would hit the fan for the non-state actors. Uncle Putin has a pretty good thing going for himself in Russia and he’d look very dimly on people rocking the boat for him there. You can be sure he and his buddies would exterminate anyone even remotely connected with such behavior (and their friends and their family and their neighbors and their dogs) and then sit down for tea without a second thought.
The other thing about non-state actors is they’d likely simply not have enough nuke to test. The only remote chance they’d have of obtaining one would be by stealing it (no one who has one’d willingly give it away) and if they managed to steal a nuke and jimmy it into what they considered a working state they couldn’t afford to try it out in Siberia. They’d only have the one shot and they wouldn’t use it on russian reindeer.Report
Yes, we would hear about it. Just like there were models made of the “ultra secret” stealth bomber before it came out, some secrets just have too much leakage to cover.
The USGS seismology record is public, and it’s collected in real-time. Hell, you can get text alerts sent to your phone (if you like constant pinging in your pocket) for quakes above pretty much any magnitude you want.
Unexplained seismology reports get play. EMP effects (if it’s high altitude) are kinda hard to explain away.
These things move the Earth. Too many people pay attention to this sort of thing.Report
The models were laughably inaccurate. The closest they came was the notion of the bomber being a tail-less flying wing.
As for detecting a test: You’re right about seismology; there are also many orbital assets (DSP satellites, for example) with the ability to detect the kind of large energy release involved in a nuclear reaction.Report
The early ones certainly were. The later ones weren’t 🙂
The B-2’s first public display was in 1988, I remember it pretty vividly. Sweetman’s “Stealth Aircraft: Secrets of Future Airpower” was published in 1986, I think I still have my copy around somewhere – he certainly didn’t get everything correct. The Testors “F-19 Stealth Fighter” model isn’t close to the F-117 or the B-2, but it looks an awful lot like an amalgam of the two. That came out in 1986.
People have been talking about the Aurora forever, too. It’s not impossible to keep details secret, mind you. It’s just really hard to keep major manufacturing projects secret. Details just leak out.
Nukes are even harder, because you have to truck fissile material around. And that stuff shows up.Report
Aurora? That’s the thing that’s hangared right next to Blackstar, isn’t it?
Neither of the “F-19 stealth fighter” kits look anything like anything. The Monogram kit is based on some artist’s fancy, and the Testors kit was entirely their own work (The ironic thing is that the “MiG-37 Ferret” that Testors invented at the same time looks more like an actual stealth aircraft…)
Monogram’s “stealth bomber” is a tailless flying wing, like the B-2, but that’s about it. And it was released a year before the public rollout of the aircraft (and after its existence had been revealed, including design details like “tailless flying wing”.)
I know that it’s fun to imagine these model-kit manufacturers being the ones who broke the story of stealth to everyone, but seriously–that didn’t happen. Any “stealth aircraft” kits you saw before public rollouts of the aircraft in question were fiction, extrapolated from hearsay and half-understood concepts about electromagnetic-wave physics.Report
GPS satellites also carry a full suite of nuclear detonation detection equipment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System#MilitaryReport
… explanations given are not always what’s there.
Wecht could tell you oodles about that one.Report
Sure.
“Training accident” works for most military things. “Swamp gas”, or whathaveyou.
You can’t really convince the worldwide geological research community that a nuclear detonation is actually a fault they didn’t know anything about, I’d wager.Report
Now, I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds.Report
Or potentially I am become life, the illuminator of worlds. But then those words were written as he contemplated the nuclear bomb. But there is another side to the coin.Report
Of wonders/terrors there are many, but none so awesome as man.Report
Well done.Report
It’s only awesome if you can quote it in the original greek. (which is the ONLY thing I remember from that class 😉Report
There are many pretty and winning things about the human race. It is perhaps the poorest of all the inventions of all the gods but it has never suspected it once. There is nothing prettier than its naive and complacent appreciation of itself. It comes out frankly and proclaims without bashfulness or any sign of a blush that it is the noblest work of God. It has had a billion opportunities to know better, but all signs fail with this ass. I could say harsh things about it but I cannot bring myself to do it – it is like hitting a child.
– Mark TwainReport
The League is often a feast for me. My cup runneth over.Report
I wonder how well we track SADM devices and structure crackers. They’ve always seemed a more likely scenario than someone wandering off with a ton of warhead.Report
This is the range of real speculation.
On the one hand, the U.S. military has done a pretty good job of only losing nuclear weapons where it’s hard to recover them (most of those are underwater). One would presume an equal level of utter paranoia on the part of the Russians and Chinese, not to mention the UK and France, and the other nuclear-armed nations don’t exactly have thousands of these things lying around. The fewer you have, the more likely you are to count them obsessively.
On the other hand, given enough time, all security is breakable.
Still, if someone got their hands on an old Davy Crockett or something of that size, they really wouldn’t be doing that much more damage than Timothy McVeigh did. You could blow up a major landmark, and cause something of a fallout hazard, but the U.S. military is equipped to clean up the mess behind something of that size.
You’d kill more people than 9/11, probably, but you can accomplish that in a couple hundred different ways without the use of a fissile device. Ramming a plane into the proper type of chemical plant would probably do the trick, if all you’re looking for is a body count and environmental persistence.
About the only real exception scenario that I can think of that is enabled by something like that would be blowing up the State of the Union, which would be difficult to accomplish without a WMD.Report
I see it more as a propaganda victory. Even if it did less damage than the Murrah bomb it would have a real psychological impact on a very large percentage of the population. That whole perceived risk thing.Report
Oh, sure.
Even if you did less damage than 9/11, you’d freak out the U.S. populace if you detonated a bomb here.
Note: our last freakout over something like this resulted in a major invasion and an overthrow of the government that was in place there. Now, this was what Al Qaeda was looking for, but I’m pretty sure the Taliban guys were a little put out about losing control of the country.
I’m not so sure any country is going to be hosting a safe haven for anybody that might commit a nuclear attack. The practical fallout for that nation state would be likely disastrous.Report
Really enjoyed this, and looking forward to the next installment.Report
Patrick, Don’t have time to post now, about to hit the road home, but can give you something else for your tidbit jar. I’ve sat on Teller’s knee when I was a kid (and even asked him if he was a Russian spy, since he had a movies accent – he was quite amused). My dad used to have him over for dinner occasionally (he worked for the AEC). My mom told me he liked to play our baby grand piano. I told him I was going to be a nuclear physicist when I grew up, but fortunately changed my mind when I actually /did/ grow up.Report
Fortunately? Hell, Ward, you’d be sitting on a double pension and the federal government begging you to take a consulting gig if you stuck with the nuclear physics.Report
I believe Ward mentioned doing very well in the private market for himself in another thread.
That said I wish I’d come to my interest in nuclear in my younger years when I was casting about for a passion… though I fear I could never have penetrated the math. Ah maths.Report
Pat, I just want to say I really appreciate this post. I’m looking forward to the next installment. Hopefully, I’ll be less busy so I can participate more in the thread discussion.Report