Class, Behavior, and Just Dessert

Jaybird

Jaybird is Birdmojo on Xbox Live and Jaybirdmojo on Playstation's network. He's been playing consoles since the Atari 2600 and it was Zork that taught him how to touch-type. If you've got a song for Wednesday, a commercial for Saturday, a recommendation for Tuesday, an essay for Monday, or, heck, just a handful a questions, fire off an email to AskJaybird-at-gmail.com

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78 Responses

  1. Reformed Republican says:

    I followed the link to the income chart, but I got a 404.

    I would be curious about the source of that data and what is meant by income. Is it based on reported income for taxes or something else? When I think of rich, I don’t think of “high income,” I think of “high wealth.” If you have a lot of wealth, it can keep growing, even if your actual reportable income is low. Think of CEOs who don’t take a salary. They are still getting richer, even if they don’t have a paycheck. Somebody making $200,000 with a lot of debt is not as rich as somebody earning $100,000 with a lot of investments and minimal debt.Report

  2. DensityDuck says:

    I know I keep talking about Burt Likko’s Three Classes essay but seriously, any discussion like this needs to cite Burt Likko’s Three Classes essay.

    (also, please fix the graphic in that post!)Report

  3. Philip H says:

    The 50% mark? $67,463

    Indeed that would be a decent annual income in many places, if it were wide spread. But not so. In Mississippi, the median income (which is what this number is) happens to be – $25,261. Down here on the coast, a two bedroom apartment will run you $13,956 annually. Up in the state capitol, its slightly less at $11, 400 a year. But stop and think about that – if you make median income in Mississippi, you have to use 55% of it just to put a roof over your head (and the general rule is housing should only be 33% of your income). So right there, a median income person – who again is smack in the middle of the income distribution – can’t really afford housing.

    While class and culture are intertwined in that, its also an economic system issue that the median income person lacks resources to overcome.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

      The paragraph that goes:

      I was lucky enough to be linked to a couple of essays about the whole middle class thing recently. One essay on being poor, another essay (from the same guy) on not being poor anymore.

      Read the one about being poor. It really gets into this.Report

    • Boo in reply to Philip H says:

      I just want to say that the CDC is responsible for this, and that you were cheering them on.
      Average house price in Mississippi is about ten times the price you’re citing for a two bedroom.
      (and who gets a 2 bedroom without a roommate? You get an efficiency, and you count yourself lucky.)

      This means that the median person does have the income to afford a house. Now, they may not have the wealth…

      Using 50% of your income on housing is imminently doable. Talking the loan officer through your budget, though, is an extensive process. “Yes, I really can walk to Costco and buy groceries.”Report

      • Philip H in reply to Boo says:

        I cited rent not purchase. apples and ice cubes. Also, reading comprehension.

        I picked that because a lot of what Jaybird discusses is around families and while they CAN live in a one bedroom or an efficiency, its not actually always a practical solution – to say nothing of the eviction when the landlord finds out. As of 2019, 33% of residents of the state rent.

        Its great that you can live in a city without a car. The only store I can walk to for basics, including food, is Walmart. Our nearest Costco is 58 miles away in New Orleans.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Philip H says:

      I’ve been thinking about this some more.

      I’m guessing that, down there, someone with a household income of $40k/year is doing pretty good. Sure, *NATIONALLY* you’re in the 30th percentile, but, locally, you’re in the upper half.

      But if we get local and hyper-local enough, we find ourselves saying that someone making $40k/year down there is doing better off, relatively, than someone making $80k (or whatever number) in San Francisco.

      Which strikes me as perverse.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Jaybird says:

        Median Household Income of San Francisco is $119,136.

        Apples to apples: Making $25,261 in your part of Mississippi is the equivalent of making $119,136 in San Francisco.

        And to say that they’re more or less equal because they are both making the median strikes me as perverse.Report

  4. Saul Degraw says:

    I am not sure I agree with that chart from Ruby Payne, it seems a bit out-dated (it would make sense in the Victorian and Edwardian era) and it also seems reductionist and flat.

    I am not sure I can quite put this into words but the current socio-political-economic system has people of all economic levels across class divides. The middle-class column feels stuck in the 1950s-80s perhaps. Or with a very petit bourgeois variant of middle-class.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      Much of it rings true to me because I’m middle class surrounded by people who are middle class and some of them are middle class who make half of what I make and some are middle class who make three or four times what I make and, wouldn’t you know it, they all talk about middle class stuff.

      The handful of people who I know that fit into the “poverty” category fought their way out of it to get, yep, smack dab into the middle of the middle class. When they talk about such things (rarely), they talk about either adopting middle class values and abandoning the old ones or they talk about how they had the middle class values instilled. (Dave Chappelle has a bit where he talks about his father yelling at him “YOU ARE NOT POOR! YOU ARE BROKE!”)

      I don’t really hang around people in poverty. Or people who have a great deal of wealth, for that matter.Report

    • North in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      Wanna seize the opportunity to agree with Saul here. The left column seems relatively solid, perhaps because poverty is rather similar no matter who it is who’s suffering it (in this country at least) but the right most column is ludicrous, as if all wealthy people are Vanderbilt-sox-gothas from Humptullips. Wealthy people strike me as being enormously more varied than that. Heck, old money like what this column is based on, probably is a minority within the spectrum of wealthy people now days.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to North says:

        I think this ties into the old observation that Shaq is rich. The guy who signs Shaq’s checks is wealthy.Report

        • North in reply to Jaybird says:

          Cool, so what part of that chart does Shaq get slotted into?Report

          • Michael Cain in reply to North says:

            Wealth is a stock. Poor vs. rich is about income, a flow. My parents’ generation was full of retirees who were “middle-class wealthy”: sufficient assets (or claims on assets like pension funds) to generate a middle-class income for the rest of their lives. My generation, not so many. In my kids’ generation, probably even rarer.Report

            • Saul Degraw in reply to Michael Cain says:

              As much as the list is reductive, there are parts of it which seem “true enough.” The thing is I can see the “upper-middle class” or whatever you want to call well-to-do professionals exhibiting behaviors from the middle class and wealthy columns to a certain degree or “true enough” way.Report

            • North in reply to Michael Cain says:

              I don’t disagree at all. But I still don’t see where Shaq fits onto that chart and, as it seems to me that new money like Shaq undoubtedly outweighs old money both in dollar terms and numbers of individuals terms, the absence of a category for them strikes me as a critical failure.Report

      • InMD in reply to North says:

        The really wealthy people is where I think Burt’s old post nails it, more than the chart does. I live in a neighborhood that measured by income is full of rich people by the national standard. In metro DC? It’s very much upper middle class, especially in terms of values, and everyone has a job of some kind. Maybe it’s white collar, maybe it’s some kind of small business or they’re a skilled craftsman, but everyone goes to work every day.

        I compare this to a friend of mine who married into a (very) minor branch of one of the wealthiest families in the area. When I visit him I at times find myself in a very different social circle, but none of them I’ve ever met are Thurston Howell III or whatever. What does distinguish them, per Burt’s column, is none of them seem to do anything for a living yet have endless resources either through trusts or connections or what have you.Report

      • Saul Degraw in reply to North says:

        I think even the middle-class is variable based on whether you are talking about blue America vs. red America. The problem with a lot of these labels is that they are vague and malleable and show the prejudices of the writer:

        For example clothing: “Clothing valued for its quality and acceptance into norm of middle class. Label important.”

        This feels a bit too throwback but even given “label important” as a rule, different groups of middle-class people find different labels important. This is not a 1950s monoculture anymore.

        I also wonder why a middle class family is likely patriarchial in 2022 America. A middle class family now likely has two working, professional parents who at least make some attempt to split the chores and child-rearing responsibilities. It is no longer dad goes to work and mom stays home in most places.

        The education tab seems to ignore that there are still lots of people who value education for the sake of education. Yes, there are lots of people who are study practical things for the reasons mentioned or do the maintenance of connections but there are still plenty of people who study whatever because they find it fascinating and enriching. I would say the bottom categories are way too reductive for all groups. The love category is just insulting to everyone.Report

        • North in reply to Saul Degraw says:

          I agree that the chart seems excessively reductive. I mean any chart purporting to represent millions of people will necessarily be reductive but this one strikes me as especially badly failing. It’s just a thinly veiled pean to the poor which is unsurprising considering that it’s from twitter.Report

          • Saul Degraw in reply to North says:

            Even here there is so much slicing and dicing you can do. On the surface, most people would see my wife and I as remarkably similar. I.e., both upper-middle class professionals with upper-middle class backgrounds. However, I attended a semi-elite undergrad (hard to get into and known but not an Ivy that opens up doors to Wall Street) and a second-tier regional law school (not scrapping the bottom of the barrel but not getting into big law either). My wife attended more brass ring schools for her undergrad and grad experiences and I can tell you this can lead to dramatically different door openings.Report

  5. Greg In Ak says:

    Lots of good stuff here so i’ll go off on a tangent. I think using income figures (family or ind) leads to part of the problem we have with talking about class, social services and community. This isn’t a criticism since it’s a common thing to do.

    Income matters obviously relates directly to material comfort and safety. But it misses all the various services provided by government at every level and privately delivered services. Those can mean a person is doing great or terrible depending on how much is out there. Focusing on income is, imho, a symptom of the hyper individualism that pervades and in many ways hurts americans. If you make 100k and have good health insurance( or gov provided health care) you are far far more stable and safe from poverty then the person making 100k w/o HI. This gets far more serious the less money you have.

    What people need is life feeling much less precarious or on the edge of doom then it often is in the US. Income only takes care of that really well once you start making really good money. So income as the key variable is useful but misses a lot and also points at why many people with so many material goods feel unsafe.

    How that feeling of life being precarious and how fears are used is a separate topic.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Greg In Ak says:

      Glad you liked it!

      When it comes to services, one of the big problems over and over again is… I forget what it’s called. “Managerial Competence”? Something like that.

      You know how you can sit down with a video game and know immediately which buttons to press to jump, which to shoot, which to open the menus?

      There are people who have to play who need the manual open on their lap as they play and they never get open the menu on the first try. Oh, you have to press X and not select. I always forget.

      Anyway, there’s a lot of that when it comes to working with some of the services provided by the government. Just sitting down and being able to work with a phone tree is a skill that comes naturally to some people. Easy peasy.Report

      • Greg In Ak in reply to Jaybird says:

        Whenever school discussions come up this kind of thing is one big thing school do. Teach kids how to work in systems and with people. Even up to Uni , this kind of knowledge/skill is really useful to learn. I know the 3 R’s of education crap but whatever you want to call it, learning how to operate the world is a vital skill. Most parents teach at least some of that. One problem though is that while Parents Know All their info is often out of date by a decade or three. So schools, hopefully, do this.

        It’s been a long time since i worked with a lot poor folks. I would regularly talk them about using the library or how to call for information. It was often hard from them given their very different experiences to feel comfy in a library. Operating the generic middle class world takes some skills that most of us have. Even people who grew up poor often have those skills but for those that don’t the world is a PITA.

        It’s not just gov services that need a certain set of skills to work. How to work doctors offices, hospitals, medical records, banks have the same or worse hurdles then govs do. And its not like all the various places have similar OS’s or all the same skills. Our world is not user friendly for many people. Heck it’s not user friendly for any of us sometimes even when we can throw money at it. Which leads to poor people often have good coping skills for their environment which work really poorly in the wider generic middle class world.

        The court i work in does a metric crapton of work to make things easier for people to use the court. Which doesn’t make it easy or clean to argue a court case or the court less imposing. But there a lot of simple things we can do to make things smoother. Lots of this doesn’t always lead to easy or politically coherent conclusions. Like immigrants sure as hell should learn english as fast as they can. Most do. The ones that don’t are set up to be victims sadly.Report

  6. DensityDuck says:

    It seems to me that “feeling rich” is somewhat less about the actual amount of money, and more about “do I feel like I can do all the things I’m supposed to be doing, and if I needed to do an unplanned thing would I be able to do that”.

    Like, the person in the linked essay, making $200k-plus a year and still feeling like they were in a precarious position; it’s probably because they were! They’d established what life looked like, and they were realizing that they couldn’t quite make that work with the income they had, and thus they didn’t “feel” rich.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to DensityDuck says:

      This is not a “well if they weren’t so STUCK UP and SNOTTY they’d feel FINE,” the point is that it’s entirely rational for someone making nine times your income to honestly feel that they’re living paycheck-to-paycheck, barely getting ahead, and would be in serious trouble if something went wrong in their lives. (It’s similar to the way that everyone honestly believes they’re an above-average driver.)Report

      • Philip H in reply to DensityDuck says:

        I believe there are various cliches about living below your means when you can.Report

        • DensityDuck in reply to Philip H says:

          Eh. Read the second essay, where he talks about how someone can make entirely reasonable, rational, within-your-means decisions about spending, and still end up with no money at the end of the month.Report

          • Slade the Leveller in reply to DensityDuck says:

            I’m experiencing (somewhat) what that guy did in reverse. Since my wife’s death, the household income is just me. I’m not hurting by any means, but I do pay attention to money a lot more than I ever did while I was married.

            You get used to buying stuff when you have money, and there is so much convenience in shopping or eating these days that the leftover money can easily disappear.Report

            • InMD in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

              I make quite a bit more than my wife, and we could certainly live on my salary alone. However our lifestyle and all the little conveniences we barely think about are completely dependent on her, and that extra bump she provides. Not to mention she has the job with the good health insurance which is invaluable in itself.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to DensityDuck says:

        When Maribou and I were first married, there was a bit of a disconnect when we went to the grocery store. I would tend to throw stuff in the cart and she would point out that I got the expensive thing instead of the cheap thing without even looking at the price.

        As time went on, that (slowly) went away. It was nice to just throw a can of Pringles in the cart. Throw a bag of baby carrots in there. Maybe the organic ones! Hey, we should get some cheese!Report

        • Michael Cain in reply to Jaybird says:

          When my wife and I were first married, for three months we wrote down every single thing we bought. We could afford it — a pair of Bell Labs’ MTS salaries does that — but we were curious. The two things that jumped out were that she had a quite expensive coffee habit, and I had a serious paperback fiction jones. I don’t remember whether that was when she kicked her coffee habit or not (she doesn’t have one now). I found the local public library and got a card.Report

        • North in reply to Jaybird says:

          My husband automatically and instinctively goes for the most expensive item on a shelf. He also instinctively gravitates to the most expensive item in a store, even if prices aren’t listed! He looks at me, when I root in a sales bin, like I’m about to dig out a festering rat corpse. I swear to God(ess?) he’s instinctively averse to things that appear price conscious. I attribute this, uncharitably perhaps, to his coming from a background of absolutely crushing poverty. He just hates behavior he mentally attributes to being “cheap”. I keep trying to explain to him that you’ll never find cheaper, more bargain allured people than middle class people but he just doesn’t listen.Report

    • DensityDuck in reply to DensityDuck says:

      In fact, the guy’s second essay covers this when he says “[n]othing is a catastrophe if you have money in the bank”. That matches really well with my own experience, that the only plan you can ever count on is “have money, preferably cash”. Nothing else is ever going to go the way you think, but if you have cash, you can usually buy your way out of anything that doesn’t kill you straight off; or, at least, blunt the impact of it.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to DensityDuck says:

        This is why the inflation over the last year was really, really bad. We have moved from “hey, we can do whatever we want, if we are smart about what we want” to “holy crap, eggs are expensive… holy crap, did berries used to cost this much? holy crap you need a second mortgage to get goat cheese!”Report

      • North in reply to DensityDuck says:

        Yeah, we had a water intrusion event that was just awful in our ol’ condo and it was an absolute clusterfish. But we could immediately afford all the attendant costs so outside the mental anguish of those costs we were, materially, pretty much fine. The line “If you have money, most of your problems just go away. They take money with them, but they leave” is pure gold.Report

  7. Chip Daniels says:

    Americans don’t have a good way to talk about class since it officially doesn’t exist.

    Yet the human weakness is to sort ourselves into classes so we invent a myriad of subtle cues to denote our claimed position, or to assign others to a position.

    It is useful to note how our classes are only tangentially related to money but are marked by other things like race and culture.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      I don’t know who the “officials” would be but we do have official definitions of “poverty”.

      When it comes to “middle class” and “wealth”, there’s a lot more blur, of course… but there does seem to be unofficial distinctions (that may vary from region to region).Report

  8. Chip Daniels says:

    What I think is interesting about serious wealth is that it largely becomes an abstraction, just numbers on a page entirely disconnected from any material effect on your life.

    Like, you may hear some entrepreneur or investor talking about a business deal gone bad and they often will laugh about it ruefully, like, “Boy, I really took a bath on that one!” they’ll say with a chuckle.
    But, it’s just an abstraction without consequences. Did he have move out of his house? Drive a different car? Take a different vacation or forgo one? Put off buying clothes or going out to dinner?

    In my experience talking to wealthy people it never has any sort of tangible effect on their day to day life.

    Which I guess would be my marker for the divide between middle class and rich.Report

    • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

      I don’t think that’s true at all, beyond the short term. A businessman dealing in tens of millions might be cavalier about a couple of million, but he knows that’s not sustainable. I think high wealth seems like an abstraction to the people who don’t have it, because the people who do have it are talking about numbers that seem abstract to us.

      There are people who inherit wealth and burn through it as if they don’t understand it, because they don’t understand it. They end up broke, or close enough to broke that they’re getting by on a several-thousand-per-month trust fund. I guess it’s possible that there are rich people who look after them, but I suspect that’s more anecdotal or a misunderstanding on the outsiders’ part of how their wealth is structured. But post-Madoff I think everyone knows it’s possible to lose nearly everything.Report

      • Jaybird in reply to Pinky says:

        I remember an old political cartoon of a guy who was in front of a pop machine that ate his quarter and he was screaming and kicking and in the next panel he was explaining a one-day 2% portfolio loss by saying that it was a slight correction.Report

        • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

          May we all be so intellectually healthy, to understand fairness and risk.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Pinky says:

            From CNBC:

            The three major averages suffered their fourth losing week in five, and the summer comeback rally looks increasingly like a bear market bounce. The Dow Jones Industrial Average declined 4.1% this week. The S&P 500 lost 4.8%, while the Nasdaq Composite dropped about 5.5%.

            When I have a long time horizon, I think “oh, I should probably up my contributions”.

            When I have a short one, I think “OH MY GOSH THIS IS IT AND IT IS 1929!!!”Report

      • North in reply to Pinky says:

        Trust funds exist and are big business because of this phenomena. In our era anyone who obtains wealth has an abundance of cautionary tale to read about descendants of wealthy people and the only real solution to that (from their point of view) is to fence up the money in a trust (of go the Buffet/gates route and give most of it away).Report

        • Saul Degraw in reply to North says:

          Trust fund does a lot of heavy lifting. I had a small trust because my grandparents were products of the Depression and saved, saved, saved. This allowed me get a debt-free education. This is something to be very grateful for.

          I also know quite a few people and know of people who can afford to be “independently employed in the arts” levels of Trustfund wealthy. These people live in relative levels of extravagance and frugality and it often depends on various personality quirks. I can think of a bunch of people whose housing stock does not correspond to their income. Some of these people have other fancy tastes, others care not for fancy stuff at all.

          I’m also not sure I fully believe the old cliche of “shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations.” I can see why it can be true enough at times but I have very few facts in evidence for it. I think it is more something people want to be true than is actually true. It is one of those just so stories we tell ourselves.Report

          • Pinky in reply to Saul Degraw says:

            It’s been a while since I’ve looked at it, but the evidence seems to support the three generations idea. It’s hard to preserve intergenerational wealth. You need zero-risk investments that have an after-tax return that beats inflation, and one heir. Anything else is a gamble. Even 2% inflation will reduce wealth by 70% over 60 years, which is the percentage often given for the loss of wealth over two generations. You’re more likely to help your kids by giving them the education and drive to make their own fortunes.Report

          • North in reply to Saul Degraw says:

            That is the entire point Saul. Trust funds pen up the money and then trickle it out in a controlled manner which helps insulate the pile of money from the whims and idiocies of individual heirs. An idiot with no sense of money or business (and, it seems, few things cultivate these negative traits quite as well as being born into vast sums of money) can obliterate an utterly astonishing amount of wealth, not merely through consumption but also bad business ventures, property purchased or tax disadvantageous decision and, of course, lawsuits from various idiotic or criminal behaviors. Trusts bar them access to the dough and generally mandate that the larger money pile is invested not by a single individual of dubious capabilities and motivations but by a committee of professionals with a fiduciary obligation and reputations to maintain.

            Trusts can be big, they can be small, but even with trusts in place large fortunes can dwindle away pretty steadily as heirs proliferate and returns on conservative trust governed investments hold steady.Report

      • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

        I’m comparing a one time million dollar loss to a one time event like a blown radiator in terms of consequences.

        One of the benefits of wealth, in fact one of the principal reasons people crave it, is its ability to insulate one from shocks and catastrophes.Report

  9. Brandon Berg says:

    Fun fact: It’s actually “just desert,” desert being a thing which is deserved. It’s a somewhat redundant expression, since a desert is just by definition.

    Knowing this, you might guess that dessert is called that because it’s a thing you deserve after eating your vegetables, but although both are ultimately derived from Latin servio via French, “dessert” is more closely related to a French term for clearing away (i.e. it’s served after the dishes from the main course are cleared away).Report

  10. Rufus F. says:

    I find the thing about styles of humor… well, funny. Especially since it was posted on Twitter, where the humor tends to be 99% based on “social faux pas”. What else is “call out culture” most of the time? I would not be entirely surprised though it Twitter users skewed rich.Report

  11. “Don’t act like a member of the class in poverty… act like a member of the *MIDDLE CLASS*!!!

    This reminded me of the discussion of Black English (AKA Ebonics). Even though linguistically, it’s simply a slightly different dialect of English, it conjures bad associations for many people, including lots of potential employers, so speaking it has genuine disadvantages. But the answer to this is not trying to teach “Don’t talk like all the people you know… talk like *WHITE PEOPLE*!!!”,Report

  12. Swami says:

    In other words… Culture matters… a lot?

    If I was to offer a counter, it is that studies of adopted vs genetic kids tends to reveal that the the genes mean even more than the culture. Adopted kids raised in another culture/environment tend to be more like their biological parents. Twins raised apart tend to come out rather similar.

    I guess my take on it is that biology and culture both matter a lot. We can’t do much about biology, so we should focus on culture. Though that isn’t easy either.Report

  13. Swami says:

    Nature, nurture and probability. Statistically speaking, kids will be more like their parents, the dominant characteristics of the local population significantly determines the culture and the two either reinforce each other or contradict. The results are messy. I think the culture of the wealthy might very well work against the perpetuation of large fortunes. Yeah… messy.Report

    • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

      Financial or psychological?Report

    • CJColucci in reply to Jaybird says:

      Remarkably bad money management (the car loans are utterly inexcusable), but people in that earnings range wrongly think of themselves as actually rich, rather than comfortably well-off, and, since they usually make that kind of money working in proximity of people rich enough to pay them that kind of money, they think they are entitled to live more like their clients or paymasters than their income or wealth will support.
      Politicians have a similar issue, always being courted by people with real money and beginning to think they ought to be able to live more like these people.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Jaybird says:

      Lemme just say: $170K in car loans? That’s more than I paid for my house!!!!!

      And yet:

      While gas prices and used car prices are finally coming down, new car prices are more expensive than ever. The average price consumers are paying for new vehicles in the U.S. reached a new record of $48,301 in August, according to a report this week from vehicle valuation company Kelley Blue Book.

      For the sake of comparison, the average price for a new car was $48,080 in July. A year ago, the average was $43,589 — or roughly $5,000 less than it is now. (It’s worth bearing in mind that a year ago was also considered an especially bad time to buy a car.)

      https://money.com/new-car-prices-average-50000/#:~:text=While%20gas%20prices%20and%20used,valuation%20company%20Kelley%20Blue%20Book.

      Depending on brand, vehicle type and features, its not actually that hard . . . .throw in a boat or an RV of some kind . . . and bingo.Report

  14. Damon says:

    That’s 85K per car in loans. Assuming he put down a down payment, the price of one vehicle is 90-100K for EACH CAR.

    THE F?

    Maybe not buy a 100K electric vehicle TWICE until your student loans are gone? Rolls eyes.Report

  15. Fish says:

    I have family who are disciples of Dave Ramsey and whenever anyone mentions money issues they start evangelizing about Ramsey and his cult (I may have opinions about him).

    The thing is…they aren’t wrong. I did, on my own without knowing anything at all about Ramsey or his cult, exactly what he perscribes to get rid of my debt and it works.

    But, as one of the essays you linked to states, it’s also easier to do if you make a lot of money to begin with. Even easier if you also have a spouse who makes a lot of money.

    tl;dr a lot of discourse around poverty tends to boil down to “just stop being poor.” Not saying that’s what you’re doing, to be clear.Report

    • Jaybird in reply to Fish says:

      From what I understand, the problem with DR is not the stuff that is easily condensed down to a list.

      Like, if someone made a “TOP FIVE THINGS YOU NEED TO DO” and put Ramsey’s top five things in a list, everybody here would nod and say “that’s pretty good advice, I really only have issue with number four and it’s most a yes/and instead of a no/but.”

      It’s all of the stuff that gets put into paragraphs and paragraphs after the stuff that makes a good chapter title that gets peoples’ danders up.Report