Institutional Trust and Trade-Offs

Russell Michaels

Russell is inside his own mind, a comfortable yet silly place. He is also on Twitter.

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14 Responses

  1. Chip Daniels says:

    This:
    “The loosening of theft and bail provisions has led to an explosion of blatant daytime shoplifting in some major cities…”

    Followed by this:
    “In conclusion, don’t follow the rules if the people creating and enforcing them don’t follow them themselves. ”

    Is just…delicious.Report

    • Yeah, I noticed too. With that logic, everyone who is nonplussed by the hypocrisy of the governors of California, Michigan, and New York (and of Fauci unmasked attending Obama’s birthday party of 400+) should also be shoplifting and looting major US cities. Obviously, that isn’t happening.

      There is a lot more going on. Loosening bail provisions and revising petit theft laws in San Francisco is unsurprising for a city that has disparaged police authority for the past 55+ years. It isn’t necessarily a COVID-19 thing at all.Report

  2. Dark Matter says:

    This “it’s here to stay” thing is why I’m against continuing the eviction moratorium.

    This is the new normal. Any company or school that doesn’t want to deal with outbreaks needs to tell it’s subjects that they have to vaccinate.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Dark Matter says:

      Well sure but according to Russel that takes away feee will, which is apparently more important then actual physical societal health.Report

      • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

        Letting an employer say you don’t have the “right” to endanger their other employees (both vaccinated and unvaccinated) seems like a reasonable thing.

        Big picture, Collectivist solutions are also problems. Not the least because the tools needed to “fix” them are so easily abused.

        For example high-ways need to be straight, which means you need to be able to force hold-outs to sell their land.

        However the vaccine equiv isn’t letting employers tell at-will employees that they’re fired if they try to endanger their fellow employees. The vaccine equiv would be strapping someone down and injecting them.Report

      • Oscar Gordon in reply to Philip H says:

        The libertarian position should be straight forward. No one can force you to wear a mask or get the vaccine. Of course, private entities likewise have the right to insist that employees and customers wear a mask and have proof of vaccination.

        This extends to government as well (as an employer, they can insist on masks/vaccinations for employees).

        The only place where the unmasked/un-vaccinated have a right is that they can not be denied rights/protections because of it (they still have freedom of speech, a right to counsel, etc.), so government has to have a way to still provide protections and service. But that could mean that everyone uses online service, or the un-vaccinated are required to interact with government employees wearing biohazard suits.

        About the only redoubt left to the hold-outs is the whole FDA approval thing, which IMHO, Will addresses nicely in this post.Report

        • Philip H in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

          Yes well that discussion is absent any references to the responsibilities of the unvaccinated. It also ignores the tendency of the unvaccinated to insist that they not be restricted in any other way.

          As an example of the latter – several of the towns down here have effectively closed their small city halls unless you have an appointment and then wear a mask when you come. The local citizenry is beginning to agitate against this as an infringement of the right to enter government facilities Willy Molly since “we the people” pay for them. Such a response is completely absent any consideration of responsibility.Report

          • Dark Matter in reply to Philip H says:

            I don’t want to be vaccinated ergo there must be sound scientific evidence to support my choice and why that’s the correct choice.

            This is using intelligence to justify what we want to do as opposed to making an intelligent choice.

            And after we’ve convinced ourself that we’re making the correct choice, we end up with a bunch of other reasoning that follows from that.Report

          • Oscar Gordon in reply to Philip H says:

            I try to avoid talking about such things as a responsibility. As individuals, we have either duties or obligations to society. An individual has an obligation to not be a vector for disease. Society should have the ability to enforce that obligation. Individual rights collide with societal obligations all the time, and while all citizens have a right to enter public buildings, they still need to wrestle with the obligation at hand.

            If they aren’t addressing the obligation, they aren’t being serious.Report

    • I am a fervent advocate of vaccination, and of public health. I have worked as a non-infectious disease epidemiologist for The State (of Arizona no less). This article is correct here:

      People tend to love centralized government when it’s their side deciding the rules.

      Yet it concludes with this:

      don’t follow the rules if the people creating and enforcing them don’t follow them themselves.

      Institutional trust is vital, regardless of which side is making the rules. We had that trust during times of smallpox and polio vaccinations. We no longer do.

      I want to believe the CDC and the NIH! It became very difficult to do so when our supposedly best and brightest medical doctors and researchers declared that race riots, arson, and looting were a greater danger to public health than COVID-19 in July 2020.

      Here’s another example. I am a woman. Every COVID-19 advisory for pregnant women on the CDC website now describes them as “people who are pregnant,” because doing otherwise has been deemed transphobic. Each article is illustrated by a photo of a headless, heavily pregnant female. (No, not decapitation, but the face of the pregnant woman is NEVER shown). Check for yourselves if you doubt me. HOW can we trust our public health authorities when they deny human sexual dimorphism (i.e. men can’t give birth) AND more significantly, are in silent complicity with the cadre of prominent infectious disease denialists who insist that Black Lives Matter confers immunity to SARS-COV-2?!

      I don’t blame Fauci for vacillating on the masks, nor Pelosi dancing in the streets of Chinatown in February 2020. With a new disease, it is a live and learn process. I balk at the excessive veneration of Fauci, but hey, he’s just one elderly guy despite being head of the NIH. It is the combination of Fauci unmasked and attending the Obama birthday celebration fete of 400+ attendees and the denialism I described in my prior paragraph that fuels COVID-19 vaccine hesitancy and distrust. Until this is addressed and eradicated, COVID-19 will be here to stay in its most virulent form, rather than attenuating like the Spanish influenza did.Report

      • Dark Matter in reply to Ellie Kesselman says:

        I want to believe the CDC and the NIH! It became very difficult to do so when our supposedly best and brightest medical doctors and researchers declared that race riots, arson, and looting were a greater danger to public health than COVID-19 in July 2020.

        There is an element of nut-picking to this complaint. This is a link going over “experts” who were doing that. https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/06/04/public-health-protests-301534

        First “expert” is a for-real doctor at some hospital (picked because of their tweets) biggest name is a former director of the CDC.

        If the medical community has to pick between fighting racism and fighting Covid, some choose the former and not the later. We’ve been defining racism as akin to na.zism for decades, it’s hardly a shock some doctors flinch away from that value judgement.

        If we look at the actual CDC advice for that time period it was something like “organizers should have everyone wear a mask” (idk if they also suggested social distancing).

        More importantly, the anti-vac “science” seems to be roughly equiv to the science backing the flat earthers. The slightest checking of their “facts” shows that it’s nonsense.Report

        • Are you serious? “Nut picking”? Did you read the article you posted? It points are the obvious contradiction between advocating for mass gatherings that include singing and crowding of the sort inherent in large protests while disallowing funeral gatherings of 10 people with 6 feet spacing and wearing masks.

          Here’s the full list of truly our best medical experts and disease researchers who

          support demonstrators who are tackling the paramount public health problem of pervasive racism.

          I didn’t realize the extent of it until now. They explicitly say that white people are a public health danger but black people are not:

          A public health response to these demonstrations [BLM] is warranted, but this message must be wholly different from the response to white protesters resisting stay-home orders. Infectious disease experts must be clear and consistent in prioritizing an anti-racist message. White supremacy is a lethal public health issue that predates and contributes to COVID-19. As public health advocates, we do not condemn these demonstrations and mass gatherings as risky for COVID-19 transmission. We support them as vital to the national public health… This should not be confused with a permissive stance on all gatherings, particularly protests against stay-home orders. Those actions not only oppose public health interventions, but are also rooted in white nationalism and run contrary to respect for Black lives. Do not disband protests under the guise of maintaining public health for COVID-19 restrictions.”

          Report

          • Dark Matter in reply to Ellie Kesselman says:

            The key words from your list is “This letter is signed by 1,288 public health professionals, infectious diseases professionals, and community stakeholders.”

            There are more than 4 million people employed in the first field by itself, and that list has the words “student”, “retired”, and “[no degree or title shown]” in there pretty often so we shouldn’t limit the potential pool to 4 million.

            This is not a list of experts much less the official position of a major health org. This is a list of BLM supporters, some of whom are also HC professionals, just like millions of other people.Report

          • Philip H in reply to Ellie Kesselman says:

            And what do the statistics tell us about the COVID 19 spread in those communities after those protests? Were these demands for social justice super spreader events or not?Report