Power to the People: Three Election Changes to Pull Us Together

Adam Taylor

Adam Taylor is a native Texan, centrist life-long Democrat, and among other things, creator of the simulation fantasy baseball site No-Lyfe Fantasy Sports. He also likes to think he has valid opinions on a wide range of topics. He doesn't tweet much, but is on Twitter.

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54 Responses

  1. Philip H says:

    State constitutions should have a definition for how districts shall be drawn in a non-partisan way, and any redistricting should follow that definition.

    Down here in Mississippi our state laws define five U.S. House districts. Based on U.S. Census Data, we got redrawn to 4 by the federal courts, because the state refused to follow federal law when our population shrank. This is now causing a state politics problem because the state supreme court has tossed out the voter initiative process on the grounds we can’t have voter initiative that collect equal numbers of signatures in the four federal congressional districts when state law requires collecting equal numbers of signatures in the five state mandated congressional districts. This has been an issue for over a decade and successive governors and legislatures have failed to fix it. Be careful what you ask for.

    Otherwise I’m all in on these ideas. Sadly, with the tossing of the citizen initiative process down here, I don’t have a way to make it so.Report

    • superdestroyer in reply to Philip H says:

      Every method to draw districts are partisan in the current U.S. Small Geographic districts would favor the Republicans since Democrats live in large cities that would allow packing Democrats into fewer districts. Drawing competitive districts would create large spread out districts that would pie slice large cities and close in urban counties. Drawing districts that ensure election of members of communities of interest would help the Democrats since all of those districts would ensure the election of Democrats while diluting non-hispanic white voters.Report

  2. Oscar Gordon says:

    I’m all for the non-partisan redistricting commissions, as long as they have clear rules to follow and can not be easily captured by a party.Report

    • Marchmaine in reply to Oscar Gordon says:

      I agree with the principle that the foxes should not guard the hen house.

      But or should I say ‘And’ settling upon a framework/algorithm won’t be as easy as we think… and honestly I’m skeptical that we won’t come up with 50 different models based on, ‘well you have to understand…’

      Which is a slightly more agnostic way to say: who’s really ‘independent’ if we can’t agree on a universal district theory that’s applied without regard to ‘independent’ configurators changing the ‘universal district theory’ for … reasons.

      At this point I usually post the interactive 538 Redistricting toolReport

      • Michael Cain in reply to Marchmaine says:

        I took the liberty of correcting your URL reference.Report

      • Greginak in reply to Marchmaine says:

        There is no perfect way to redistrict. But as long as it gets close that seems fine. I don’t want Wisc level insanity where 60 +% for one party but the other party gets 60+% of the seats. Seats should be reliably close to the vote totals.Report

        • Marchmaine in reply to Greginak says:

          Sure. One vote for “Proportionally Partisan” that’s reasonable.

          What about other ‘goods’ like compactness, county borders, COI/majority minority districts? Also, do we have no interest at all in maximizing competitiveness?

          But, to be truly Proportionally Partisan, we’d have to allocate the districts *after* the election or we wouldn’t know what the partisan proportionality *should* be, only what it was the last time the districts were drawn… which might create unbalanced districts over the usual 10-yr period.Report

          • Greginak in reply to Marchmaine says:

            Well we redo every 10 to correct for changes. Counties are lame. Compactness, meh. I’m more concerned about bizarre rorschach shaped districts.

            It’s complicated like most things
            Except for counties being silly.Report

            • Oscar Gordon in reply to Greginak says:

              Compactness is the counter to bizarre shaped districtsReport

            • Marchmaine in reply to Greginak says:

              NO MORE COUNTIES.

              I guess the thing about proportionality is two-fold: If we build it to be proportionally accurate on the year ending in 0, what happens
              1. If the districts change demographically over 9-yrs to deliver non-proportional results. (e.g. Narrow Blue district flips red which doesn’t reflect true proportionality)
              2. Or conversely if the districts deliver non-proportional results because the demographics changed un-evenly but at very accelerated rates in one or two districts… (e.g. Blue district goes Double-Dog-Blue by vote totals, changing the overall state proportionality, but not the seat count).

              The point here is that if we agree that the only (or most primary thing) is pure proportionality we’re going to run into issues that aren’t mitigated by other things like, say, COI or Compactness, or Competitiveness.

              I think there’s maybe a hybrid way out where you have COI/Boundaries, calibrate for some competitiveness, then maybe allocate some ‘at large’ seats to balance proportionality.

              But that doesn’t work for any state with fewer than, say, 10 seats.

              But true proportionality could only be 100% at large.Report

        • JS in reply to Greginak says:

          There was a proposed test for SCOTUS, which had more math, but could be approximated as “if the seat distribution isn’t within roughly 10% of the popular vote, there’s something hinky”, which is a fairly good rule of thumb.

          Sure the actual method was somewhat better (there are plenty of methods to calculate that), but frankly this is a case where the mark one eyeball is probably sufficient to “know” if districting is gerrymandered.

          The end results of, say, the House elections of State X should be approximately (give or take 5 or 10%, because real life) if you’d simply summed up all the House seat votes across the state and allocated them proportionally.Report

    • Colorado’s new commission is going to do Congressional redistricting for the first time this year. The considerations, in the order they now appear in the state constitution are: equal population; comply with the 1965 federal Voting Rights Act; as much as possible preserve communities of interest; as much as possible keep counties and cities intact; compactness; and explicitly last, politically competitive. There’s a lengthy definition of community of interest. Are those clear rules, in your opinion?

      For the first time, there are eight districts. I assert that, broadly, there’s an obvious way to do this. We’ll see what the commission thinks. If they follow my reasoning, the division between the Front Range and rural Colorado is going to become much more pronounced.Report

      • Oscar Gordon in reply to Michael Cain says:

        I think that ‘community of interest’ is a problem, as it is necessarily a fluid thing. I would make it an aspirational goal, rather than a hard target. Political boundaries are more reasonable, but even those have to include some measure of give and take (which I think it does). Compactness (and existing political boundaries) can, and often will, I suspect, run counter to ‘communities of interest’, which is another reason COI should be aspirational (if you can do it, great, but don’t twist things into knots for it).Report

        • For the last 40 years in Colorado, the three communities of interest that mattered for Congressional districts were Denver, the vast empty Eastern Plains, and the equally vast and empty Western Slope. This year El Paso County (Colorado Springs) may get added to that list. If the commission adopts my approach, those fall out almost automatically.

          The 35-seat state senate and 65-seat state house are on a different scale, and COI can be complicated.Report

  3. Marchmaine says:

    Regarding #2 on RCV:

    I’ve shifted my political discussions with all the Anti-Trump republicans around me to just this… it is in ‘our’ interest to change the voting regime (at the non-Constitutional level) so that we can exert proportional influence in areas we care about and have the freedom signal support that runs contrary to either of the two parties.

    I think you could augment your position by pointing out that even if your 2nd or 3rd choice is elected in Election #1… the actual # of votes and proportional support would influence Election #2 and potentially create some fluidity across the party lines as coalitions can shop their positions to candidates looking to either build a bigger influence coalition for Election #3 or to influence policy direction in Election #2.

    Which is to say… the very first election after RCV will probably follow fairly predictable lines, but it might change the iterative aspect over time. Depending upon actual voting preferences, of course… not by magic.

    I also support #1 on redistricting… and note some of my observations/concerns above.

    If we get RCV, I would not support #3 (Jungle Primaries) as I want no primaries and actual parties to select their candidates, and #3 would be redundant or counter productive if you have RCV.Report

  4. Pat says:

    I cosign all of thisReport

  5. Saul Degraw says:

    1. Non-partisan redistricting commissions are a no brainer to me and they seem to work. A lot of Democratic states have them. The issue is getting red or reddish states to adopt them seems impossible and GOPers in the Senate are deadset to block them with an assist from Manchin and Sinema.

    2. I’m not enamoured of jungle primaries. I think sometimes part of the problem is that we think paritsanship is the problem. Primaries should be on the party level. Plus in a lot of states you will just see one party cut out. California Republicans largely are cut out off races because of the Jungle primary. This has not helped to moderate them. In fact, they seem to just let the freak flag fly more because of it.

    3. Rank-choice voting is good as well.

    I would also add:

    1. National vote by mail.
    2. Election Day is a federal holiday
    3. Election voting lasts two weeks
    4. No off year elections, all elections for all offices are held on even years. This is local, state, and national. The only exceptions are special elections to fill an empty seat.

    3.Report

    • Philip H in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      Co-Sign. Again.Report

    • Just to be pedantic, you mean something other then “federal holiday.” We have many federal holidays — non-essential federal offices are closed. States make their own decisions about whether to have a corresponding state holiday. Businesses make their own decisions. Juneteenth is now a federal holiday. It is unlikely that very many businesses will observe it, as they are disinclined to add another paid day off to their work calendars.

      You mean some sort of never-before-in-the-US holiday, where the federal government mandates that non-essential federal and state offices will be closed, as well as all non-essential businesses.Report

    • superdestroyer in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      Odd numbered year elections are off-off year elections and are meant to decrease turnout (See Virginia). However, governor races seem to be helped by not occurring at the same time as presidential elections.
      If every states goes to vote by mail, then all of the states need to be in-hand states instead of postmark. If everyone votes by mail, then there is no point is a federal holiday since the proposal is meant to help Democrats.Report

      • Philip H in reply to superdestroyer says:

        If everyone votes by mail, then there is no point is a federal holiday since the proposal is meant to help Democrats.

        Utah would like to disagree with the assertion at the end of the sentence. Colorado too.

        That aside – yes if every state went vote by mail there would be no need of a holiday.Report

        • Michael Cain in reply to Philip H says:

          Arizona’s >80% vote by mail system and Montana’s >75% system were both installed by Republican state governments.

          It was entertaining to watch Mike Lee on one of the talking heads shows running down a list of “bad” things in HR1. I believe 5 of the 6 were things Utah was already doing, some only recently adopted.Report

        • superdestroyer in reply to Philip H says:

          There would be no reason for Colorado to have a holiday on election day (day off for goverment workers) if 95% or more have voted by mail. Colorado also is an inhand state that gets it ballots counted quickly.
          Considered that the Republicans are no longer relevant for state wide office in Colorado, then the measure was meant to help the Democrats since the turnout of non-whites has gone up. The all mail ballot could also be blamed for the election of Boebert to Congress since the turnout in the Republican Primary went up and Boebert won over a more main stream incumbent.Report

      • Damn, somehow clicked “Report”. Didn’t mean that.

        Colorado votes mostly by mail. There are in-person voting centers to handle edge cases — eg, people who move to the state too late to register and get a ballot by mail, or people who need assistance and have no relatives or friends to do that. The only pure vote-by-mail state is/was Oregon. At least at one point you had to live there and be registered far enough ahead of the election to get your mail ballot. I remember reading that people who need assistance in voting in Oregon call a number and a qualified volunteer comes to their house. I believe even Oregon is changing that to handle last-minute registration.Report

        • superdestroyer in reply to Michael Cain says:

          Oregon is the pure case. The Democratic Primary is the only relevant election and the Democrats operate a closed primary. That means that the winning candidates are picked by the most active Democrats and the general election is moot due to the turnout of not so active Democrats in the Portland area.Report

  6. PD Shaw says:

    I’m constitutionally (small “c”) opposed to Jungle Primaries, ever since David Duke used that voting system to get in a runoff with a criminal. I don’t think a multiplicity of candidates encourages moderation. The polls showed that either under a traditional party primary system or ranked-choice voting, Duke would not have had a chance. I’m not sure of the underlying dynamic, but it seems like the two step process encourages a certain type of voter in the first round (attracted to otherwise marginal candidates) and a different in the second round (less politically engaged, wait and see the meaningful choices).

    I realize that the French Presidential election system isn’t technically a Jungle Primary because parties and their primaries are retained, but they do have a centrist, albeit pretty unpopular President who appears to be aiming for a runoff election with Le Pen in which he will have to be the choice as lesser of two evils. Some on the Left are signaling that they will sit such an election out. Maybe they will or maybe they won’t.Report

    • Philip H in reply to PD Shaw says:

      I was in graduate school home in Louisiana for that election and had a bumpersticker that said “Vote for the crook – its important.”

      good times . . . .Report

  7. North says:

    Ranked choice voting sounds good on paper but it has several problematic elements. Firstly it’s relatively confusing for voters but far more importantly as a second point it takes a LONG time to count the votes and the vote counting process is necessarily byzantine. That’s a serious problem in our current voting environment.Report

    • Marchmaine in reply to North says:

      Yeah, there’s something a little odd about ranking every candidate… like I wouldn’t even want to put a ’13’ beside some candidates.

      Maybe a way to ease into it might be to require 50% + 1 to win, with a RCV of 3 candidates… if no candidate gains 50% in RCV-3… then actual Run-off between #1 and #2.

      RCV doesn’t take long in any automated system; it takes a long time in systems that don’t want to be automated, though.Report

    • Slade the Leveller in reply to North says:

      What about it makes it take a long time to count? It looks like a pretty simple algorithm.Report

    • JS in reply to North says:

      Ranked choice shouldn’t take any longer to tabulate.

      Report the results? Yes. You wouldn’t want to report partial results, or if you did you’d have to do a lot of work (“Candidate X is the first choice of X%, second of Y, third of Z”, repeat per candidate) which would probably be confusing.

      You’d wait until you had enough votes tabulated to be certain someone either was certain to win or certain to be eliminated and report that. (Which might vary from “We’ve tabulated roughly 70% of the votes, and Bob’s gonna win even if he’s last choice for everyone else” or “We won’t know until we’ve got the last ballot in, it’s real close”).Report

      • North in reply to JS says:

        Slow counting/slow reporting, layers of results. I think it’s a problem considering how the country is accustomed to having a pretty good idea of the outcome. I mean it’s academic since there’s no way in Hades that the existing diad would endorse a massive change that’d allow third parties to have a shot at winning in second round picking.Report

        • JS in reply to North says:

          Eh, that’s not really “political parties” so much as it is “inevitable outcome of a system in which you vote on things, and the majority wins”.

          It forces everything down into two parties of roughly equal size — anything else is an aberration that is worked out of the system. This is true no matter how your government is set up (parliamentary systems might have a million parties, but they have long-standing stable coalitions — the difference between the US and the UK is simply that in one the platform is worked out before the election, and the other after).

          If you need 50%+1 votes in your Congress-equivalent to pass legislation, you are incentivized to put together a stable coalition or party that can muster 50%+1 votes. Which means you’ll end up with two groups with a fairly equitable split. (And the whole ‘life goes on, things happen’ bit means eventually those coalitions will fragment and reform, during which you might see larger majorities or brief third groups until it’s all worked out).

          If you grow too large past 50%+1, your coalition is stressed — the other group starts making more and more serious overtures, or you get purity tests (“why do we need those sellouts”) towards one end or the other, and you’ll fragment.

          But it trends towards two stable groups, because in the end — you need 50%+1 votes to pass legislation. or stop it.Report

    • Saul Degraw in reply to North says:

      How is picking 1,2,3 confusing? First past the post can create situations where a minority of the voters picks the winner especially in a crowded primary.Report

      • CJColucci in reply to Saul Degraw says:

        It strikes me as simpler to assign points to the candidates. If you list up to five, the your first choice wins 5 points, your second choice wins 4, etc. It seems that this could be toted up immediately. So to take three hypothetical sets of choices: (1) Adams [5], Garcia [4], Wiley [3], Stringer [2], Donovan [1]; (2) Stringer [5], Garcia [4], Donovan [3], Wiley [2], Adams [1]; (3) Wiley [5], Morales [4], McGuire [3], Garcia [2], Adams [1]. You end up with: Garcia 10, Wiley 10, Adams 7, Stringer 6, Donovan 5, Morales 4, McGuire 3. (I chose these numbers at random and see that Garcia and Wiley are tied. I suspect that with more voters this becomes less likely. If it happens anyway, there could be a head-to-head runoff.) Is there some reason it isn’t done this way? I suspect that there is a technical reason I don’t understand.Report

        • Slade the Leveller in reply to CJColucci says:

          I had this same thought, but it doesn’t work. The first step is to see if one candidate has a majority of 1s. It’s game over at that point, if it happens.Report