Is Donald Trump Already Doomed?
It is one of the canons of American political commentary: ignore general election polls taken during the primary. Pundits, prognosticators, and psephologists repeat it so often it’s become a mantra. John Sides, the political scientist who runs The Monkey Cage blog, penned a long post last July in which he argued that news stories about polls conducted so far in advance should include caveats about their lack of predictive value. Harry Enten of FiveThirtyEight was blunter when he declared in November that “History’s lesson is clear: Don’t pay attention to general election polls a year before the election.” As Enten noted, since WWII polls a year out have been off by an average of ten points, and sometimes much more. Just think of 1992, when George H. W. Bush led Bill Clinton by over twenty points.
Clinton’s comeback is a hopeful omen for Republican frontrunner Donald Trump. He currently lags the presumptive Democratic nominee, Hillary Clinton (wife of the aforementioned Bill), by 8.5 points in the RealClearPolitics average and 8.1 points in the HuffPost Pollster average. Conversely, her substantial lead offers no assurance to the former First Lady and Secretary of State. Early polls are not determinative, after all; the experts say so. That’s true, too – in July or November the year before an election. Now, however, it is April of election year. And if data from previous cycles is correct, then Hillary Clinton should be pleased. For it is quite possible that Donald Trump is already doomed.
Trump’s problem is that polls from this stage of the election cycle have a strong correlation with the eventual result. Political scientists Christopher Wlezien and Robert Erikson crunched data for the elections from 1956-2012. They found that 300 days before the election polls have little relationship to the outcome. But by the time you hit April their predictive value increases considerably. Wlezien and Erikson discovered, according to a summary of their research by Vox’s Andrew Prokop, that by “mid-April of the election year, polls explain about half the variance in the eventual vote split. And mid-April polls have correctly ‘called’ the winner in about two-thirds of the cases since 1952.” Polling changes registered in the spring tend to stick because they occur at the end of a contested primary. Voters have been exposed to the candidates for several months and have begun sizing up their general election potential. As late as mid-February Trump’s deficit was under five points. But since then his numbers have tanked. As Prokop makes clear, Trump’s polling collapse occurred at the worst possible time for him, as it happened just when such shifts begin to matter. If Trump’s drop keeps to the historical pattern, then the reality TV host and real estate mogul is in trouble.[1]
To test this proposition, I looked at general election polls from April for the last three presidential races. First, 2008. There are sixteen April polls in RealClearPolitics’ table of general election polls from that year.
Of these sixteen polls, John McCain led in two, five were tied, and the remaining nine showed Barack Obama ahead anywhere from one to six points. That November, Obama won by seven.
Four years later the final outcome was also being foreshadowed by April.
The RCP table of general election polls for 2012 contains sixteen polls from April of that year. They too show Barack Obama as a strong favorite. He led eleven polls, two were tied, and Mitt Romney held leads in three. Obama beat Romney by four points.
This phenomenon is not limited to President Obama, either. Here is the comparable evidence from 2004.
RCP lists sixteen polls from April of 2004. George W. Bush was ahead in twelve while his opponent, Sen. John Kerry, led but four. Bush defeated Kerry by three points.
In the last three elections, the candidate who was ahead in April won the presidency. As previously noted, the April leader wins about two-thirds of the time. Hillary Clinton would seem to be in excellent position. In fact, history underrates her chances. A look at this year’s polling data reveals why.
There aren’t enough polls to focus on April alone, so I’ve also included those from March in the RCP table of Trump vs. Clinton polls.
Sixteen more polls, and Mrs. Clinton leads every one. In fact, Trump has led in only two polls from 2016 in RCP’s table, and none since mid-February. Clinton’s advantage appears even more dramatic when represented as a graph.
As this graph from HuffPost Pollster shows, Trump has never led Clinton. The margin was close in the fall but has gradually increased since January, and expanded rapidly in the last two months. That’s what happens when you trail in forty-seven consecutive polls, as Trump has.
Kerry, McCain, and Romney, though they were behind, led in a random poll here and there in April of their election years. Trump does not fare even that poorly. His numbers are deteriorating just when general election polls begin to mean something. The reason isn’t hard to find: voters loathe Donald Trump. His favorability rating has never risen above fifteen points underwater, and today the deficit hovers between thirty and forty points. Again, the graph tells the story best.
This graph is of polls of voters and adults. Trump does even worse with specific demographic groups, for example millennials, Latinos, and women. Such numbers are what make Trump what he is: the most unpopular major presidential candidate in modern history.
Numbers like this are why it matters not a whit that Trump’s convention manager, Paul Manafort, told a meeting of the Republican National Committee last week that Trump’s vulgar bombast and belligerence during the campaign was merely an act and that his behavior was “evolving.”[2] Never mind that Trump’s new political director, Rick Wiley (late of the unlamented Scott Walker campaign), regaled the same meeting with tales of Trump’s ability to expand the map and compete in places like Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, even Connecticut, New Jersey and Illinois. And forget about Trump’s massive victories in the so-called Acela primary. Trump’s abysmal numbers render all of it moot. Reporters and Trump boosters can fantasize all they want about Trump’s path and the Rust Belt. Trump turns it all to dust. Trump has no path as long as he is on it. It is only April, yet we may already have reached the point where any discussion of what Trump will do in the fall is simply the punditry equivalent of shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic.
Trump hasn’t crashed into the iceberg yet. And not every observer regards April polls as bearing the metaphysical certitude of the writing on the wall. Nonetheless, every rubric available – favorability ratings, demographics, and head-to-head ballot tests – suggests that Trump is headed for a decisive, perhaps even crushing, defeat. The past is prologue. If history repeats itself – and, as I have argued, there is considerable reason to believe it shall – then Donald Trump’s only path is the one leading him to the biggest loss in a presidential election in nearly thirty years.
[1] I am only considering a Clinton vs. Trump contest. Bernie Sanders leads Trump (and all Republicans) by even larger margins than Clinton does. He is not the frontrunner, though, so his advantage is largely hypothetical. There is also reason to believe it is something of a mirage.
[2] Whether the statement was genuine or not, the new Trump didn’t last long,and not a week later he was vowing that he had no intention of acting like anyone but himself.
Image by Gage Skidmore
Thank you, @varad-mehta, for an awesome walk through the data.
I make no effort at all to disguise my dislike of Trump, although I also have significant distrust of Clinton and I am very much of the mindset that an intellectually and politically healthy Republican party is an essential part of making our system of government work as it ought to. Therefore, I view what you’ve revealed as bad news notwithstanding my dislike of this particular candidate.
What non-superficial things might Trump do to avoid the result that the forecast points to? Changes in platform? Surrounding himself with respected, prominent advisors, floating names for his cabinet? It’s hard to say because he’s seemed to demolish the traditional rules of voter appeal so much already.Report
Goal #1: Unite his party behind him. If they run a spoiler or even simply disengage from his campaign and seek to contain his influence away from down ticket races he’ll be wrecked. If he can’t persuade the GOP base and elites he’ll be starting way too far behind.
Goal #2: Survive the onslaught. Clinton and the Democratic Party can attack Trump with a lot more live ammunition than Trumps rivals for the GOP nod could. The other GOPers always had to attack with an eye towards coopting and luring Trumps supporters. It won’t work that way in the general. The attacks should be withering and Trump needs to prove he doesn’t have a glass jaw.
Goal #3: Propose something popular but outside the GOP’s comfort zone. Trump has a lot of potential here, he is pretty emphatic about protecting or even funding a lot of safety net programs and that’s an area he’s really been in tune with his supporters about. Once he has the party united behind him and if he survives the waves of attacks he’ll need to change the subject with some dramatic NEW proposal (and buildings the fence ain’t gonna cut it).
That’s off the top of my head. If he could resuscitate a baby or an elderly women live on the evening news that might help as well.Report
I think that your Goal 2 actually breaks for Trump. A withering attack from Hillary might very well come off as shrewish and elitist. And since she likely already has that demographic locked up, thereynot much to gain. At the same time, if she sticks to the high road, Trump will take advantage. Hillary’s best option might well be some variation of the rope-a-dope.Report
which would be great if she actually had trolls running her campaign (they excel at crap like that… tricking people into doing stupid shit — see Woolworth’s Lolita bed).
Is Ax still in the game?Report
If it comes from her? Sure, but it won’t come from her- it’ll come from some unaffiliated PAC’s or something. She won’t have so much as a fingerprint on it.
But yes, in her personal words on Trump she will need to be cautious. Caution, of course, is Hillary to a T.Report
That’s exactly the sort of thing that I’m talking about. This video is a good example:
It’s very good content, a great way to signal your dislike of Trump to other people who dislike Trump. Outside of that, though, not sure it does what the makers intend it to do.Report
@j-r
But isn’t that pretty much all political ads?
Unless one reveals a previously unknown truth OR is able to strongly put forth a really damning non-truth, they all seem to fit that script.Report
“Feel good” ads are all about “Hey, I kinda like that guy!”
“Scare” ads (check out the ones with 9-11 imagery) are all about fear and “this guy won’t keep you safe.” It’s working on an emotional level — the “previously unknown facts” are almost irrelevant, except that they give the conscious mind purchase to pin feelings on.Report
It’s easy to forget who the target audience is for political ads in a general election. It’s not about satisfying Hillary fans or peeling off Trump fans into the Hillary camp. It’s for undecideds. The types of people who can watch Trump and Clinton all over the news for a year or more and still not really really be sure which one they prefer or how they’re different. The types of people who genuinely change their vote based on which candidate is more “commanding” or “presidential” during a fake debate instead of by the years of track records the candidates have usually formed.
As best I can tell, these people are looking for some sort of mojo or lightning in a bottle hitting them at just the right time when they’re in a particular mood. Their feelers are feeling for some variable that the rest of us just can’t see. It’s possible that Trump just oozes whatever that pheremone is, like TAG Body Spray for Sick Cats. If not, I’m guessing that they’re probably just as likely to be swayed by ads full of ominous music and patriotic symbolism as they are in every other election.Report
Eh, not so much. Basically put in America you have self-identified Republicans, Democrats, and people who aren’t those first two.
Which makes it seem like the third group is the big deciding factor. Except in real life, the vast bulk of “people who don’t call themselves Democrats or Republicans” are actually Democrats and Republicans. They vote just as reliably — when they vote. They just don’t like the label, even if they’re voting pretty much straight ticket.
The actual percentage of people who are genuinely torn between parties is pretty low, as long as one party doesn’t have a vast chunk that hate’s it’s own candidate. (That would clearly swing over into the “I refuse the label but I’m just as reliably a party man when it comes time to vote”).
Which makes elections, on the Presidential level, more about getting your base to turn out — but especially getting your secret base (those “I refuse the label but I totally would vote for you) out, because in addition to refusing the label they’re often pretty intermittent about voting.
So the goal of the general election isn’t to sway the genuine “I’m undecided between these two candidates” folks as it is to sway the “I’m undecided about actually showing up to vote for you, but I’d never vote for that other guy” group. Because there’s really very few of the former (and they’re often happy to go along with the bandwagon effect) and lots and lots of the latter.Report
Actual undecideds are about 10-15% of voters. Which doesn’t sound like a lot, but they sit at the fifty yardline nationally and if one swing is worth two new voters. One third of swings is greater than the typical margin of recent presidential elections.Report
My recollection is that it’s 10% of people who are not affiliated with parties who are true “undecideds”.
That’s not 10 to 15% of the electorate — that’s like 3%, and close to the least likely 3% in terms of reliable voting.Report
10% of self-described independents would be around 3-4%, which is lower than any credible estimate I’ve seen, including from articles with titles like “The death of the independent voter.”
It’s about 1/3 of self-declared “Independents” and between 10-15% overall. Some of it depends on how you count it up and measure it, of course. Most of the cases where you see headlines like “It’s only 5%!” you look closer and that’s actually not a flat reading of the statistics, in my view.
But when you talk about self-identification and you add up “Republican”, “Lean Republican”, “Democrat”, and “Lean Democrat” you usually get somewhere between 85-90%.
When you look at voting patterns and exclude non-voters and “Surge & Decliners” (basically including only “Standpatters” – reliable partisans – and “Floating voters”) you get around 10% in most recent elections*.
If you look at congressional districts that went one way for president and another way for congress, indicating an open-mindedness, results actually suggest a higher number as in most recent elections* more than 10% of congressional districts went a different way than the presidential (despite gerrymandering and uncontested races and all of that business).
* – A lot of this depends on how you evaluate 2012 (and 2014). Both of those elections represent extraordinarily tight partisanship, meanwhile 2008 (and 2010) was/were unusually scattered. There is an overall pattern to consider, but there is generally some ebb and flow. If you believe The World Changed between 2008 and 2012, that leads us to one conclusion. I’m not sure how much we can project from a sample set of two.Report
I’ve personally thought it was best to basically treat non-Presidential years as separate from Presidential years, at least for the last 20 to 40 years. The turnout models are just too different.
I would however consider the 2012 election more predictive than the 2008 election. 2008 had a few rather unusual factors, whereas 2012 seemed about as bog standard as you could get.Report
It’s actually the 2014 results that have lead to the sweeping declarations of the death of the nonpartisan. 2012 had tight partisanship, but not as tight. in 2012 was above 10%.
Go back to 2000 and 2004, and Floaters/(Floaters+Standpatters) is still above 10%, split districts above 10%, and so on. 2012 is a sample set of one. (And between us, 2016 is itself shaping up to be statistically unusual for other reasons.)Report
I dunno. I’m thinking it’s 2012 with a more xenophobic Romney on the GOP side.
Then again, I’m on the record saying that the “Trump and Sanders show it’s an anti-establishment year!” is lazy thinking and completely wrong. Trump’s a size of long-standing fissures in the GOP finally breaking open, and Sanders is….a figure in every Democratic primary without an incumbent for the last 50 years.
He just was the ONLY other candidate, which isn’t something Dean, for instance, had going for him. (Seriously, I can’t believe O’Malley was such a non-entity).Report
I think that O’Malley was such a non-entity is instructive. I don’t think it’s as simplistic a narrative as anti-establishment, but it’s not business-as-usual, either. Mostly on one side, but not entirely so.
In any event, the “busting wide open” you refer to is a big part of why I think this year actually is kind of different. If Trump manages to keep the party together to the extent that the totals look much anything like ’12, I’ll be pretty impressed.Report
I agree. Strangely, I think Trump might be better for party unity than Cruz. I mean Trump is a bombastic blowhard, but Cruz seems to have personally insulted every major Republican figure. And their mothers. And possibly their dogs.
They don’t like Trump, but with Cruz it’s not just abject dislike — it seems deeply personal.Report
@j-r
How much of the response to Hillary do you think would be the result of…
1.) Hillary herself (e.g., Hillary has existed in pretty elite circles for a while)
2.) Her as a female (e.g., Women going on the attack are perceived differently than men doing the same)
3.) Existing tribal stuff. (e.g., Well, you know…)
Obviously, there is a lot of overlap between those. I guess what I’m asking is if you think other Democratic candidates could more successfully levy those attacks on Trump.Report
#1 matters because Trump is playing the anti-establishmemt candidate and Hillary is playing the establishment.
#2 will only matter to the extent that Hillary and her supporters make it about gender. And the more that they try the more that it will backfire. Think about 2008. Obama did everything he could to downplay race and it worked. By the time of the election, all of the Jeremiah Wright and assorted race stuff was well in the past and pretty much everyone, even people who didn’t vote for him, were caught up in the historical moment-iness of it all. The real Obama Derangement Syndrome didn’t start until sometime after the passing of the ACA.
#3 may be a factor, but it all depends on whether Trump can pull off a pivot. White progressives almost always overestimate the extent to which non-whites are committed to the Democratic Party cause. Right now, the Hillary machine, with its assorted DNC and media components, are doing everything they can to signal an end to the Sanders campaign and the Democratic Primary. Why? Because Bernie did damage relating back to #1.Report
Hillary herself has been going high road mostly. Trump has been saying how this country is going down the pooper and is in terrible shape. Hills has been saying we are pretty darn great. Trump is opening himself up to be Reaganed with sunny positivism by Hillary which will resonate with a lot of people. As was noted, there will be withering attacks on trumpy all about his very seamy past but they will come from Bill or outside groups or other people on the D’s.Report
I’m a Democrat, but I think a healthy Republican party is valuable, too. I’ve seen some Democratic candidates that I thought were awful, and wanted a decent alternative.
I think that crushing defeat may be the only thing that can change the path that they are on.Report
Not if it’s a crushing defeat for Trump whom the Republican elite hate. Then, they can pin the blame on him and go back to business as usual.Report
Perhaps if he didn’t insult groups he’s going to need to win the election like women. It’s not as if his misogyny hasn’t been on display for the entire season, but his recent remarks about the “woman card” are guaranteed to tick off any woman, and there are plenty of them, who has encountered men who think she’s only succeeded because of gender-based affirmative action. When Trump’s spokeswoman then suggested that women who vote for Hillary were using some part of their anatomy other that their brain that cost him even more votes.Report
How many left-leaning entrepreneurs immediately began printing and selling actual “woman cards” to display in political arguments?Report
My understanding from the Twitter dot com is that Clinton’s campaign is already quite willing to provide them (for a small donation, of course)Report
If my FB feed is any indication, a few.Report
While I agree with this in general the certainty of the wording runs an icy finger down my spine in that I can recall being similarly certain that Trump wouldn’t get the nod and now it feels like he has even odds of getting it.
That said, this is mainly numeric based while the Trump bear market was based more on non-numeric assumptions about the GOP primary electorate so I can cuddle that close like a warm blanket and resume salivating for the general.Report
Numbers matter, but not the ones referred to in this post.Report
I don’t know. I’m not convinced that the past will determine the future in this case. Trends continue until they don’t. If there was ever a set up for tail risks/black swan scenarios in an election, this is it. More specifically:
– I’m pretty sure that Trump doesn’t want to lose, but I’m not sure how much he wants to win. If Trump does want to win, he can absolutely pull off a pivot. I’m not quite convinced of Scott Adams ‘Trump as master pursuader shtick’ but he’s onto something.
– It will be real easy for Clinton supporters to overplaybtheor hand in such a manner that the campaign spends most of its time preaching to the choir and alienating everyone else. I expect that the “X identity for Hillary” campaigning will be very aggressive and more than a little alienating for people outside of the progressive bubble.
– Hillary Clinton has a likeability/trustworthiness problem, as evidenced by the amount of time her supporters spend insisiting that she is both likable and trustworthy. Lots of people dislike Trump as well, but how often do people show up to vote against the candidate they don’t like. Out of the population of people who aren’t already committed in their minds to one candidate, I can see the number of people who either flip for Trump or stay home being significantly greater than the number who flip for Hillary.
If you offered me a straight money bet, I would take Clinton. But give me odds and I’d take a shot on Trump. I’m talking about betting here. I ain’t voting for either.Report
My next post, I’ll be writing from a “special place in hell”
… even liberals get alienated by the cultural hegemons.Report
jr,
Any bet on Trump is a waste, at this point. The GOP Establishment will sink his ship, even if it costs them the party. They can’t afford not to. (and if they don’t, well, it’ll be because they failed, not because he succeeded).
Besides, the Powers that Be want Hillary Clinton president. That, in of itself, is reason enough to vote against her. But also damn good reason to bet on her.Report
Yes, I’m scratching my head a bit as well… the trends are true until they aren’t seems to jingle bells in this cycle.
More specifically, what would an analysis of the contested state of the primary show? In most cycles the candidates are more or less determined by April, so I could see polling starting to coalesce around national outcomes. 2008 for the Dems had some doubt late into the primary season, so there’s that… does it compare favorably, un-favorably or unrelatedly for Trump? Are there other election cycles I’m overlooking where the fight was bitter to the end? 1976? The small subset of polls 2004, 2008, 2012 barely plot a line much more than a trend.
I mean, I think that’s one of the key unknowns right now… with the Neo-Cons really walk? Will all the NeverTrump people quietly vote against Hilary? Will there be a True-Scotsman-Rump-Republican 3rd party candidate? Will new voters vote for someone that finally is fighting for their interests? I have no idea, but the warnings that past earnings do not promise future returns seem like they might want heeding this cycle.
Finally, I’ll be the one to say this thing no one wants to say… when you watch Trump in his victory speeches he’s likable. He’s funny, self-deprecating(!), often generous to his competitors, he’s in command of details and facts about the races and election results (I mention this because a) it’s weird in one way – he’s hyper aware of how he’s doing in the popularity contest, but b) despite that, it comes off as someone who’s running the show and, c) not a puppet to handlers), and lastly, while his political blather (in these instances) is just as stupid and banal as Hillary’s, Trump’s blather suits him. Trump is a riot of steaks, booze, half-truths and things you want to hear… Hillary is dixie cups and horse pills you need to swallow for your own good (or so you think, maybe, possibly, well it probably couldn’t hurt). When it finally comes time to pull the lever, don’t under-estimate which candidate is more likable.
I mean, I keep expecting Trump to fail ridiculously… to blow-up in some spectacularly public fashion, and maybe Hillary’s team will have the focus and expertise to coax that out of him…or maybe he’ll keep turning vice into virtue – at this point reality TV is more real than we thought.Report
Trump is likable to some and seems like a obnoxious a-hole to others. There is no one perception of him.Report
Thinking about this a bit more, it’s likely that reverse likeability will matter more than likeability. That is to say, the candidate who most voters think would like them. And this is a toss up.
Trump strikes me as the kind of guy who likes you a great deal, so long as you’re mirroring back to him the version of himself that he wants to see. His reverse likeability is high, but volitile. Hillary has enough reverse likeability in certain situations, but there’s always the question of how sincere she is. If she can break out of the pandering image, there is a lot of upside there.Report
To be sure, but no one’s suggesting Trump gets 100% of the votes… just that once the dust settles and people focus a minimal amount of attention on this thing called the vote the overwhelming negative that I’m expecting and straining to see in Trump’s TV appearances (the types of appearances that will garner the largest and most cursory views) just doesn’t seem to be there.
Basically, I’m just saying that the predictive powers of these past polls are pretty much just confirmation bias, and not really serious analysis.Report
You and I have very different ideas of likable, I guess. Trump screams “East Coast Asshole” at a volume that very few people can manage.Report
Actually, I think he screams New York Asshole. The Wash DC asshole is much different.Report
Eh, they’re subspecies.Report
There’s lots of subspecies of asshole then 🙂Report
And what does Hilary scream? Like the old race in the woods… he doesn’t have to outrun the bear, just the other piece of meat.
But yes, I recognize that by writing the Trump is “likable” its going to be assumed that *I* find him likable… that’s not the case. I’m offering up that when I watch him with something of a fresh gaze he comes across as genuine in his NYC-etched pathology and, in fact, somewhat disarmingly so. You can assume his negatives will skyrocket with each new month, perhaps they will… but I wouldn’t build a campaign around that.Report
Hillary is a terminally boring old. That people manage to have strong feelings about her at all kind of amazes me.Report
I don’t think your negatives can skyrocket from such an already high position. The area between him and “100%” is basically “gentle rise” territory.Report
In his favor, he seems to have more fans than he did in the 90s.Report
To me,Trump screams serious case of narcissist personality disorder that extends well beyond the narcissism typical of most politicians.Report
If there was ever a set up for tail risks/black swan scenarios in an election, this is it.
There have been a *LOT* of black swans showing up in the last few years.
It feels like we’re one news cycle away from everyone suddenly knowing that Trump has it in the bag. One particularly bad headline involving an attack somewhere or an event like a really, really bad wall street day.Report
I think this post has two major issues. The first is that 3 data points is nothing. The second is that at this point in the process the primary is typically wrapped up either in reality or for all intents and purposes, so their own party has consolidated. The GOP nomination is still very hotly and bitterly contested now, so #NeverTrump has a bigger impact on these polls. Sometime after the convention, when the hangovers wear off and NR realizes they may elect Hillary, #NeverTrump will undergo an population decline that we haven’t seen since the K/T extinction event.Report
I think team nevertrump can stay true enough to their word. Donald isn’t driving towards the iceberg – Donald *is* the iceberg. If Trump gets the nom, Nat’l Review, RedState, and the rest of the nevertrump crew are not going to be talking about Donald v Hillary – they are going to be frantically looking for enough lifeboats to save as many down ticket races as possible. (Spoiler – there aren’t enough lifeboats)Report
Imagine, if you will, a universe in which Hillary Clinton gets elected… how do those in charge of National Review, RedState, benefit? At all? Measurably?
Imagine, if you will a universe in which Donald Trump gets elected.
Same questions.Report
If Clinton is elected the RW media will start full throated calls for investigations and impeachment for everything that happens including the tuna salad in the staff lunch room having just a bit to much mayo. They will make bank on a Clinton prez.
If Trump were elected they would love his many conventional R positions and angle and push as hard as possible to water down his apostasy. That is more work but nobody said carrying water was easy.Report
If Trump gets the nom, Nat’l Review, RedState, and the rest of the nevertrump crew are
going to support him 100% against Hillary, and viciously attack anyone who claims they weren’t always at war with Eastasia.Report
I disagree. I’ll make a bet about it, even.
Redstate will be #nevertrump to the end.
National Review… I waver. But even odds for them. They aren’t automatically going to fall in line.Report
So much of this depends on how we define “support.”
When all is said and done, I expect both sides will claim to have been proven correct.Report
I’m willing to bet that Redstate will argue that it is important to show up to vote on downticket races but argue that every voter should leave the presidential column blank or, I suppose, vote 3rd Party. Maybe write in “Zombie Reagan” or something.
The *CLOSEST* that *ANYBODY* will be able to say that they “supported” Trump will be one guy who says “vote your conscience”. (“THAT’S A DOGWHISTLE FOR VOTE TRUMP!”)
National Review will probably make arguments about the importance for voting down ballot but will have one guy (maybe two) who will admit that, at the end of the day, he’d rather vote for Trump than Hillary.Report
I think National Review will run some Pro-Trump pieces and some anti-Trump pieces. They can’t endorse. Same with The Federalist. Personally, I’m going to be looking more at individuals than outlets.
Dunno enough about RedState.Report
Here’s a tweet I just saw that covers it for Redstate:
(Er, the guy isn’t affiliated with Redstate. I more mean that his attitude encapsulates what I suspect the Redstate attitude as being.)Report
Why would RedState stop throwing rotten tomatoes at the Clintons just because Trump is president?
(Also: would defending Trump be that much worse than defending W?)Report
Grah, my comment got dumped.
Anyway, shorter version: Redstate saw W as “one of us”. They do not, in any way, shape, or form, see Trump as one of them.
(As a matter of fact, the only thing that I remember them criticizing Bush about following 9/11 was Harriet Miers. Everything else was easily swept onto someone else (from Cheney to The Media) or a shrug and “Kerry would have been even worse.”)Report
Though RedState only became anti trump after Donald attacked Megyn Kelly, correct?Report
The Redstate people with whom I am familiar (twitter) went from “ignore him and he’ll go away” to being “follow the 11th Commandment” to “now that he’s pushed out Scott Walker/Rick Perry/Other Guy With Actual Experience, the gloves are off!”
The Megyn Kelly thing, as far as I can tell, is an example of “AND ANOTHER THING!” rather than a precipitating event.Report
GOP members of Congress, including Orrin Hatch, are already starting to move.
Money quote:
“I don’t understand. I mean, it’s not ‘Never Trump.’ It’s ‘Never Hillary.’ Never, never, never, Hillary. Come on. Wake up and smell the coffee,” said Rep. Mike Kelly of Pennsylvania
Remember when GHWB forgot that he’d called Reaganomics voodoo a whole month ago and signed on as his VP? Good times, good times.Report
Wait, were we not talking about Redstate and National Review but Establishment GOP politicians?
Yes. I agree with you entirely.
I’m sorry that I misunderstood what we were talking about.Report
Yeah, the politicians will mostly fall into line. Often in the most tepid and pro forma manner that they can, but it’ll still qualify as support.
The opinion people outside TV and radio are a bit tougher.Report
It’s not a proof that the right wing noise machine will also move, but it’s a valuable leading indicator.Report
Redstate saw W as “one of us”. They do not, in any way, shape, or form, see Trump as one of them.
They think he’s Jewish?Report
If Jewish Lightning counts as jewish…
(I’m sorry, this is a truly awful business joke.)Report
Recognizing that this is a joke and was obviously intended as such…
And admitting that the first time I heard this joke, it was a Jewish friend who told it to me…
It’s still something that attributes a propensity for certain unsavory acts to certain groups, so it uncomfortably puts stress on the commenting policy.Report
Burt,
Honestly I think Mike’s comment puts more stress on the commenting policy, by implying that being Jewish is something that is differentiating in a bad way.
I’m implying that Trump’s business decisions are bad enough that the only way he makes money is by burning them to the ground. (with the Jewishness of said comment being just a way to slide it into being contextually relevant).
The initial humor in Jewish Lightning was because it was actually happening (circa 1970’s NYC), and there were a lot of jewish landlords.Report
I’m taking no action here. Just pointing stuff out.Report
Honestly I think Mike’s comment puts more stress on the commenting policy, by implying that being Jewish is something that is differentiating in a bad way
More that some people think that. Which is pretty undeniable.Report
As per the commenting policy, referencing facts that are unpalatable may be taken as throwing insults around — regardless of intent.Report
Because the clintons will be dead dead dead. this is hillary’s last shot at relevance.Report
Alger Hiss is dead. It doesn’t stop Hugh Hewitt from bringing him up every damned time he interviews someone to the left of Ted Cruz.Report
The other thing is that it’s going to depend on how Trump does. Fewer people are going to eat their words if he stays down in the polls by 10+ points than if it becomes close.
They will lambast Hillary regardless. Almost none will endorse her. Most will, in my accounting, stand on the sidelines until or unless it gets close. If saying bad things about Hillary (more than Trump) counts, then yeah it’ll probably be a positive. I think the results will be ambiguous to my eye. Unless it’s close. Then it’s gut check time.Report
I’m in for, say, $20. What are the terms?Report
I agree. They may make noise about it now, but by September they’ll be backing Trump, whether heartily (“he’ll be a great president!”) or resignedly (“he’ll be better than Hillary”).Report
I think a great many more resignedly than anything else — it’s easy enough to see the anti-Hillary sentiment making the rounds as GOP’ers reconcile themselves with the imminence of the Age Of Trump.Report
They do show up to vote against candidates they hate with a passion.
Latiino vote registration is spiking and they are telling us because they want to vote against Trump.Report
Like I said, people overestimate the negative feelings that minorities have for Trump. The only people who hate politicians “with a passion” are people who are passionate about politics and those people are already on a team. I’m not convinced that Trump will do any worse with black and Hispanic voters than any other Republican would. He will probably do better. Turnout is the key and that will likely swing on how well Hillary does in getting people out to vote for her.
Identify who the “they” is in that sentence and that will tell you something about that message.Report
And not to mention how many of the new Latino/a voters are in areas (California being a good example) that are going via electoral college for Hilary anyhow. In other words, it doesn’t really matter how many new Hilary voters there are, it is already past the point of being contested.Report
Good point. I do think that places like New Mexico and Arizona may be in play, because of Latino voters. I just don’t buy that Latinos universally hate Trump with a passion and will turn out in droves to vote against him.Report
New Mexico has gone D in 5 of the last 6; it’s only in play if Trump puts together a massive turnaround.
Arizona is in the threatened tier of ordinarily safe Republican states; Romney took it by 9 in 2012, McCain by 8.5 in 2008. At the point it goes D, the rubble is bouncing.Report
Nevada, Colorado, New Mexico. That’s what matters in electoral terms.
People will turn out to vote against someone they sufficiently dislike, and the Republican are running the equivalent of Joe Arpaio as their presidential candidate. I don’t see that going over well at all.Report
The likely scenario to me is:
1) African-American turnout is slightly lower, with slightly (no more than 4 percentage points) shift towards the GOP, due to Obama’s record high numbers on both stats.
2) Hispanic turnout is about the same with the same split
3) Non-hispanic white turnout is drastically lower (due to blah at both Trump and Clinton), and the split percentage will go from 59-39 (in Romney-Obama) to 50-48 (Trump-Clinton). Mainly due to the gender gap.
(everyone else together is a small enough slice of the electorate, and splits evenly enough – even at 70-30 – that analyzing their election over election changes doesn’t matter for all but the closest elections, a la 2000. Which this won’t be)
So, while Trump ‘gains some black votes’ and ‘holds steady’ with Hispanics, the percentage of the electorate that is Hispanic goes up. The drop off of white voter participation makes the overall turnout picture resemble a midterm, but with the complete opposite demographic profile that midterms have.
That alone would be disaster, but with the fewer percent of white people voting for the top of the GOP ticket, it’s apocalyptic for anybody on Team Red with a name on the ballot that day.Report
I agree with this… except I think Trump wins. Nobody will understand how in the heck this can happen downticket but still have Trump win.
Is it Diebold? Is it Republicans cheating to close polls early?
How could this happen?!?
Nobody I know voted for him!Report
It’s true that the smart set seriously underestimated the system vunerablity that Donald exploited, overestimated the enterprises capacity to deploy a patch for that exploit, and underestimated Donald’s ability to carry off that exploit – but Donald still hasn’t completed his exfil yet.
The general election is a completely different enterprise with none of the same vunerablities that the Republican nomination process had and has.Report
I see him doing weird stuff like winning OH and PA. Making states that would ordinarily be strongholds for Democrats into states where Hillary has to expend resources to keep them that way.
Have you noticed that he’s started having a Bradley effect in the last few primaries?Report
More accurate to say that he’s stopped underperforming in the last few; you’re supposed to win a bigger share than you poll (since there are no “undecided/refused” votes). It also remains unclear whether this translates away from relatively uncontested primaries on his home turf.Report
Perhaps you’re right.
We’ve nothing to worry about.
Everything is going to be fine.Report
Seems like there’s good money to be made buying low right now. 2:1 seems fair to me, but what do I know?Report
There are some indications that his improved performance has more to do with the other side(s) giving up than it does increased support of him. Which is something that happens when you’re winning, and not a way that you get out from being behind.Report
That he (may have) developed a real bandwagon is definitely news, but I’m waiting for Indiana (where he’s looking pretty strong) to make any strong judgements.Report
I think the Trump wave may have become self-fulfilling.
Which is to say that I expect Trump to win Indiana handily in part because the race was declared over. (And in part because I think he would have won it anyway.)
However, I think this happens because of declining numbers of people going to the polls to vote against him, rather than more people going to the polls and voting for him.Report
This seems reasonable; certainly the current Indiana polling looks like a Trump sweep.Report
Yeah… but as part of the factor of “nobody I know voted for him” is the curious, but now substantiated fact that lots of new nobodies are showing up to vote. @jaybird has commented on this previously as well.
I went to RealClear polititcs the other day to look at the vote totals of the GOP primaries since 2000. What was interesting was that 9M – 10M votes is about what you needed to secure the nomination. To date, Trump is already at 10M and with California and 9 other states still to vote is poised to blow past W’s old record of 10.8M votes. Voter turnout – without the last 10 primaries, including CA – is already 20% higher than the previous high. Fortunately the Washington Post wrote exactly the same article – with charts.
Losing votes, gaining votes, keeping reluctant votes… I dunno. I recognize the US is far more polarized right now, but it’s not like we’re at 95% voter efficiency… there’s a huge gap of non-voters that we simply write-off in our assumptions. Which is why all I’m saying is that assuming that this is a regular year where Fric and Frac fight over the carcass of the body politic to our usual expectations – is probably a poor assumption. On the other hand, my fellow tribesman, Ross Douthat, agrees with the general consensus that there’s no way Trump can win… so clearly my tea leaves are defective.
Ultimately mine is the wimpiest of positions, hey, I can’t tell you how, but if Trump wins I’ll totally claim I didn’t rule it out.
More boldly, I said a few months ago to @North that if Hilary is facing Trump she’d better adapt to a totally new fight, because while she is geared up to fight GOP Inc., Trump ain’t GOP Inc., and the only way she loses is if the fights the wrong war. But in the end, that’s still a pretty wimpy prediction.Report
More boldly, I said a few months ago to North that if Hilary is facing Trump she’d better adapt to a totally new fight, because while she is geared up to fight GOP Inc., Trump ain’t GOP Inc., and the only way she loses is if the fights the wrong war. But in the end, that’s still a pretty wimpy prediction.
I agree with this. Trump isn’t fighting a left vs. right. He’s fighting populist vs. elitist/technocrat.
Remember when we were gaming the Jeb vs Hillary fight in our heads? Good times.Report
Populist vs Elitest might be a general framing of the roles which helps Trumpy. However Donnie might talk a good loud populist game that doesn’t’ mean lots of people will buy it and he is also a vastly imperfect messenger for populism. Maybe there are no really good messengers for populism but the R’s haven’t really attacked Trumpy. If you think he has made plenty of crass offensive statements to women and minorities so far then wait until you hear his long history of that. Wait until his various business shenanigans get a lot of airplay.Report
but the R’s haven’t really attacked Trumpy
Okay.
If you think he has made plenty of crass offensive statements to women and minorities so far then wait until you hear his long history of that. Wait until his various business shenanigans get a lot of airplay.
Perhaps you’re right.
We’ve nothing to worry about.
Everything is going to be fine.Report
Hmmm i’ve heard that response somewhere. Yeah i think Clinton will crush His Trumpness. Will i be right, who knows? But i think C gets 55%+ with T getting all time or close to historic lows with minorities.Report
I will say this, back when I was afraid Trump has a real (though outside) chance in November, Hillary was asked how she would go after him and her campaign responded with something about our standing in the international community. It was a horrifying response.
Right now I think she can afford a horrifying response, and a horrible campaign, and being one of the least popular nominees in modern political history.Report
Your words warm the kochles of Hillary’s heart.Report
Heh, its a little bit like Cameron bringing in International outside pressure and thinly veiled threats from the US to try to paint a pro-EU picture in the Brexit debate. Absolutely true from his and his kind’s perspective, but fuel for the fire otherwise.
All kidding aside, it is inconceivable to me that Hillary could lose to Trump because all the things Trump could score on (other than The Wall ™) are (or used to be) Democratic issues. The fact that pack of Movement Conservatives couldn’t pivot to coopt some of Trump’s thunder doesn’t surprise me. But Hillary? She only loses if she runs as 1990’s Clinton + Identity Politics. That said, I think there’s a non-zero chance she runs exactly that way.Report
My offer on this is still open, @jaybirdReport
I don’t recall your offer. Was it a post-writing bet?Report
I suspect he will get a slight uptick in support for blacks compared to Romney, but that we’re going to discover just how low GOP support among Hispanics and Asians can go. On the other hand, I think you underestimate his white vote performance by a bit. Just a bit, though. I’d peg him at about 52-53%.Report
Both Kolohe’s prediction and mine produce almost the same electoral college outcome:
Only difference is Montana, which mine puts with HRC and his with DJT, but it’s razor-thin either way. Popular vote gives Trump 41.1% of the two-person vote on mine, vs 40.9% on his.Report
“I’m not convinced that Trump will do any worse with black and Hispanic voters than any other Republican would. He will probably do better. ”
I keep seeing people saying this, but why?Report
That can be arranged.Report
I don’t know why anyone takes him seriously.
He’ll be gone by Halloween.Report
There is a fundamental difference between what was said then and what is being said now/here, @jaybird .
Back then, Trump was leading and no one thought it would last. It did.
Now, Trump is trailing (Hillary) and the argument is being put forth that he will remain trailing. Time will tell, obviously. But because he didn’t falter from ahead earlier does not mean he will win from behind now.Report
Well, this examination of historical trends is a lot more rigorous than the whole gut argument that everybody (including me!) had six months ago.
So I shouldn’t dismiss it the way that my gut feelings should have been dismissed six months ago.
That said, I’m wondering if something significantly different from what’s been true in the past isn’t being overlooked.
I think that Trump is making populist arguments against a centrist democrat and the democrats are responding as if they’re arguing against a right winger… and I suspect that that isn’t going to work.
But maybe everyone is right this time. Trump is doomed. It’ll be a big loss. Totally destroy the Republican party. They’ll be in the wilderness.Report
Well, yea. Is it possible that Trump is different enough to buck trends and do the unexpected? Certainly.
But just because that was the case in one scenario does not mean that will be the case in others. Unfortunately, we just don’t have enough data on any of this to make particularly useful predictions.Report
Even if Trump loses big and takes the GOP Senate with him, the House will remain in GOP hands because gerrymandering (for example, here in NC, we went from a 7-6 delegation favoring Dems to a 10-3 delegation favoring Reps). Plus, the GOP has a lot of strength at the state level. So, they’ll survive Trump. And, if he wins, they’ll adapt to him.Report
Even if Trump loses big and takes the GOP Senate with him, the House will remain in GOP hands because gerrymandering
This silly meme never dies. Over the entire period from 1930 to the present, you’ve had a plurality (not a majority) of the popular vote without gaining a House majority on three occasions – 1952, 1996, and 2012. Your plurality was close to nil the first two times, and only 1% the last time. Of the state legislatures who drew those districts in 1950, 1990, and 2010, a total of 20, 4, and 22, respectively were fully under the control of their Republican caucuses (facing a Republican governor); 15, 7, and 11 were fully under the control of Democratic caucuses (facing a Democratic governor).
First-past-the-post commonly enhances the plurality party’s performance; no gerrymandering required. That aside, the Democrats lose seats because the distribution of their support is inefficient, as a crucial component of it is to be found in inner-city districts wherein they roll up 90% majorities. While we’re at it, the premium to the majority party was larger in 1984 that it is today (not that that bothers partisan Democrats).Report
Yes, it’s so much of a myth that even NRCC Chair Greg Walden buys into it:
“There’s a floor that we have that is better than we’ve ever had. It’s well over 200,” Walden told The Hill. “They are locked and there are people above that are fine. Does the DCCC have a straight-face list of how they get to 218?”
From TPM.comReport
Your response is non sequitur.
If it helps you feel better, go with it. Just quit being a pest.Report
” That aside, the Democrats lose seats because the distribution of their support is inefficient, as a crucial component of it is to be found in inner-city districts wherein they roll up 90% majorities.”
Isn’t that the very definition of gerrymandering? Create one ridiculously noncompetitive district for the Dems and a bunch of R+5s?Report
Concentration of support is one of the tools of gerrymandering, but gerrymandering isn’t the only way that it comes about.Report
Fair point. People do self-segregate.Report
Your previous comment was great, Art. This one wasn’t. But we all have ungreat comments, and in and of itself this one isn’t bad. But I’m back to the question from a couple of days ago: Granting that nobody (including myself) is perfect, are you going to at least attempt to abide by the commenting culture we’ve asked for, such as by trying to engage people civilly and/or constructively even when you disagree, or can we expect every other comment to be unnecessarily disrespectful? If you express a willingness to try, we’re not going to litigate every ungreat comment. But if you are too contemptuous of us and/or our policy to do even that, we’re not going to invest the time and energy to try to parse the comments to determine whether or not it qualifies as a violation.Report
Just tell people that you meant Halloween 2021.Report
I am as partisan a Democrat as they come but there is something in the air if Trump has come this far. That thing might just be the destruction of post-Goldwater Republucanism. The GOP elite and conservative pundits are still deep into Trump denialism and blamming Trump on liberals.
Here is the thing. The overwhelming majority of people don’t spend much time thinking about politics and consistent ideology. They don’t care if ideas X and Y are ideologically clashing. The conservative consistents at NRO and Commentary are shocked, shocked to discover that a good chunk of their base likes certain sections of the welfare state.
Trump still has way too many negatives for a general but I also suspect partisanship to take over eventually and never trump will become defeat those Ds.Report
There is also this kind of toxicity which will drag down Trumpy and the R’s
This is quote from a Repub official in Florida
“A top Republican official in Florida is quoted in the Post this morning confidently predicting that “I think when Donald Trump debates Hillary Clinton she’s going to go down like Monica Lewinsky.”
There is a subset of the population which will laugh heartily and slap themselves on the back for their lack of PC. The subset of the pop who will be revolted by that kind of statement will be larger. And those people are going to remember this image of the R’s for a long time.Report
And this seems like the perfect place to leave a link to this interview with Monica Lewinsky
Highly recommended.Report
Lewinsky link is 404. I assume that implies another conspiracy about Hillary controlling the internets.Report
When does the evidence finally cross the threshold and become proof?Report
Hell, if she controls the internets wouldn’t we want her as President?Report
Do not make Cat admin!
Do not give CAT nuclear codes!
Seriously, seriously bad plan!Report
Well…if she controls the webtubes, maybe she already is.Report
And the Rs just don’t get itReport
This may be true, but what about the mushy middle, those who don’t want to eat their political kale, take that horse pill? I think that (on both sides) is what has been missing from most analysis.
But I am just a Libertarian.Report
You also massively dislike the Democratic Party like a spurned lover from time to time.
There are plenty of women who are not liberal. But they are still going to be disgusted and turned off by this kind of boorish behavior.Report
And there’ll still be a special place in hell for them.
Just like me.Report
“You also massively dislike the Democratic Party like a spurned lover from time to time.”
Heh, not bad, and probably quite true.
That said, this is the calculus right now. Are woman going to be put off because of this? I don’t know, and really no one does at this point. It’s kinda like baseball before sabremetrics, lots of guesses and old wives tales. But in the end not enough data points to really dig into, especially with Trump being such a wild card.Report
It’s kinda like baseball before sabremetrics
Unlike the last couple of years, when SABRmetrics proved that the Royals are doing everything wring?Report
To be fair, they also said that the Mariners were doing everything wrong.Report
You don’t even have to read the sports page to know that.Report
I dont’ think the political kale/horse pill analogy works. People do actually like some of what the D’s offer ( they like some of what the R’s offer also). Hills can propose polices that plenty of people respond favorably to. They may not get passed or work or be what you want, but she has things people like.Report
That all may be true, but this is the calculus right now. How many are just gonna be on board (either side of the fence) vs. how many can be swung. This is the real race. So, of course some want kale (my wife for instance) but others might not want the kale so much, but rather the broccolli. Part of me likes the idea of stability (OK, a big part of me) that Hil offers, but another (bigger) part of me feels that it is the stability of a downhill walk. Sure it is nice right now, but coming back up is not gonna be as fun.Report
You know someone who has eaten kale? You must be more liberal than I.
A lot of people like the idea of playing 52 pick up with the gov in theory, but as you get closer some of those people start to back away. I dont’ think the country is going downhill but trumpy will certainly tell everybody everything sucks.Report
As far as green vegetables go kale tastes good and I regret nothing!Report
I found a pretty decent recipe where you slow-cook some dark meat chicken, and throw in a firm dark green like kale for the last hour or so. It kind of wilts down in volume (unlike spinach, which would disappear completely) but retains some toothiness (almost crunchy, especially the ribs) and is actually firmer than the meat.
This has nothing to do with Trump, mostly because there will be only one opportunity to cook him, so whoever gets the chance should make sure they bring the best recipe they have.Report
You speak like collard greens aren’t a thing.Report
Collard greens are totally a thing.
But they’re a poor black thing that ain’t nobody loves ’round here. Or so says the marketplace, at any rate (can’t find ’em at farmers markets, and yes, I’ve looked).
And I like collards better than kale.Report
Collards are better than kale. Where I live collard greens are thick on the ground, no pun intended. Collards are not considered poor black food, and never have been. It reminds me of going to New York and being chastised for saying Y’all because I “sounded black”. In the south everyone eats fried chicken and watermelon. It’s not racial, it’s just good food.Report
42,
“Collards are not considered poor black food, and never have been”
… they are around here. I am making fun of people for believin’ in such.
Southern food is southern food. (though peanuts are from Africa)Report
Also, who doesn’t say “y’all” if your idiolect doesn’t already have a “youse” or “yinz”? There’s a need for that particular construct, and “broadcast English” doesn’t have a real alternative.Report
Well, for me they pretty much aren’t (I’ll have to look a bit closer at the vegetable sections of the markets I shop in but don’t recall ever seeing any). Regional variation, no? Not cultural/SES, but the plants are in the same family and kale likes the temperate band while collard greens are more subtropical – that was always the impression I got. So if they’re sourcing more locally, they’d be much more likely to get kale around here regardless.
One other reason I mentioned it was that I generally hate stewed or braised green vegetables and this was one of the few applications I’ve seen that I could actually tolerate.Report
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brassica_oleracea
Same Species, actually. Along with broccoli and brussel sprouts, kohlrabi and cabbage.Report
I just find collards far superior to kale from a taste perspective.Report
I thought Kale was only for Whole Food Liberals with their wine and cheese and volvo tasting parties?Report
And Italians. Kale’s native to there — from way back in Roman times. Like any native plant, they put it in everything.Report
Prior to 2013, Pizza Hut was the largest purchaser of kale. Granted it was to decorate their salad bars.Report
well huh….i didnt’ know cheese stuffed kale existed. But if pizza hut bought kale, it must have.Report
As Kim pointed out, it’s the same species as broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, and brussels sprouts. The first two work famously well with cheese. And even leaf cabbage likes grease, so cheese should work there too.
Kale wouldn’t work as well as a wrap as leaf cabbage without cooking the hell out of it, but I don’t see any reason to write it off.Report
tell more about the volvo tasting.Report
@el-muneco @kim @kazzy @fortytwo
Let’s all agree that kale, collards and chard. are tasty. They are.
Nothing compares, however, to grilled asparagus 🙂Report
A-fishing-men.Report
fresh asparagus, straight from the garden, boiled as lightly as possible. Absolutely fantastic. Asparagus loses so much flavor in shipping.Report
Indeed tasty. But I like a little char on my veggies, and therefore like to grill em.
I’m thinking of the following this weekend:
Grilled shrimps
Grilled mixed veggies: asparagus/broccoli, carrot, sweet tato, mushrooms, peppers, tomatoes.
And maybe some gelato for dessert.Report
Asparagus is indeed tasty, and for many people there’s the added attraction of being able to enjoy it twice.Report
“You know someone who has eaten kale? You must be more liberal than I.”
Heh, my wife is both a foodie and a liberal, so yeeeaaaahhhhh…Report
She don’t lie, she don’t lie, she don’t lie, she don’t lie,
QuinoaReport
OK, @mike-schilling I draw the line at Quinoa. Like eggplant, that ain’t food, and will ruin food it touches.Report
Do you truly detest baba ghanoush?Report
Eggplant parm is good, but as a Scot would tell you, anything breaded and fried is tasty – go on and add cheese and marinara and you couldn’t go wrong if you’d started with a shingle.
Alton Brown had an application where you could theoretically process eggplant into a spaghetti substitute. I apparently never managed to follow the directions correctly, because it was horrid. As Kim says, baba ghanoush is good if you’re in the mood for it (i.e. it’s not something I’d necessarily break out to put on the party tray without thinking about it first).
Quinoa works for me if used like small-grain couscous. Cold Mediterranean salad with cucumbers and tomatoes, say.Report
There’s also just pure demographics to think about:
In what groups will Trump outperform Romney? In what groups will Trump under-perform Romney?
The same questions can be asked about HRC versus Obama in 2012 as well.
And all that together — which demographic groups have changed size significantly? Right now, it looks pretty unequivocal that Trump is going to lose share among Hispanics and probably women. He might gain among white men, but only white men over a certain age (already a core GOP demographic) and he doesn’t really have a lot of room to grow there. Romney hit a seriously high water mark there and it wasn’t nearly enough. I can’t see a Clinton/Trump race really changing black voting patterns. And in 2012, the young mostly retreated to their normal voting patterns.
So right now, it looks like Trump needs to find 5 points worth of growth among…white males only PLUS making up for any losses among women and Hispanics. That’s a…difficult row to hoe.Report
This sounds about right to me, with the added complication of the electoral college. What states can Trump win that Romney lost? What new voters in those states will vote for him vs. Hillary?
I seem to recall reading that very few people ever change voting patterns in the federal presidential election. What actually matters is turnout. Hillary, I think, is at risk of diminished turnout compared to the energy that Barack brought. On the other hand, fear of Trump may reinvigorate marginal voters to come out.Report
I agree, it’s pretty hard to see how Hillary does not lose; but that’s her only job: Don’t Lose.
So far the best thing you can say about her is that she is a fairly middling record of not losing.Report
I’d say he’ll definitely lose ground among women because it’s clear that he’s a sexist pig who makes disgusting remarks about his own daughters. The “ewwww” factor is high with him.
My mother, who is a Fox News Republican, is apoplectic about the thought of Trump getting nominated. As much as she hates Clinton, and her hatred of Hillary is palpable, she hates Trump more. He offends her sensibilities. I suspect she won’t vote for eitherReport
I see Trump gaining ground, relative to other Republican presidential candidates, among lower-income white voters.Report
Only men, for the most part, which is a big part of the problem.Report
I’m not so sure about that. Yes, all his attitudes towards women are repulsive, but he’s still got a non-zero level of support among women, and the populism vs. elitism angle may play stronger than the sexism angle with some. And Hillary and her backers have a way of angling for women’s votes that threatens to alienate them instead (“special place in hell”).
But white men are definitely his base.Report
Yes, it is all doom gloom. I’ll just give up now.Report
Ha, your not going to read the next 25 posts that have Trump and Doom in the title?Report
Just like I didn’t pay attention to the previous 25 posts that had Trump and Doom in the title.Report
As a statistical analysis, this post doesn’t need to show causation, only show plausible correlation. Clearly it does that. So sure stuff can happen that causes a change from the likely path, either reversing who’s ahead, or reinforcing existing positions. An “October surprise” or an economic or security disaster sufficiently large at any time to reshuffle the deck forcing the political card counters to start over.
But I found this post a particularly clear statement of info we can know now use to make educated guesses or plug prejudices into.Report
By and large this seems to be the election that history went on vacation for, but by and large I’m relatively certain that this is the case. So much so, in fact, that I’m backing off my “The party should change the rules to rob Trump of the nomination if they can” position of before. That was in fear that Trump might win the election. The daunting (for Trump) trajectory of the poll numbers and the timing put it about as clearly as it can be put. It’ll take an indictment, at this point.
The difference between pooh-poohing in the primaries and pooh-poohing Trump now is in one case you were ignoring polling because history. Here, though, you have to ignore both. Historical reversals of fortune almost always include a candidate being relatively unknown, and the reversal occurs around when people are making up their minds about the lesser-known (or both). In this case, people have made up their minds. That means that Trump doesn’t just have to guide opinions about him (the challenge every candidate faces) but change people’s opinions on him.
A lot of the people suggesting that Trump has a chance are actually themselves pointing to history, and that’s a part of what Varad is responding to. Matthew Dowd, among others, points to Reagan who had some pretty low approvals. That was while there were a lot of opinions on Reagan outstanding. There was a lot of room for him to go up. It’s not especially useful to look at Cruz’s numbers or Kasich’s (or Sanders’s) because I don’t believe opinions have solidified to nearly the extent that they have for HRC and Trump. Trump’s favorables/unfavorables will probably improve some (as will HRC’s), on account of party solidarity, but there is nothing in the poll numbers, in addition to nothing in history, on which Trumpers are really able to hang their optimism.
About the only thing Trump has in his corner is that is facing a candidate who is also unpopular by historical-polling standards. Who would, in fact, be among the least popular nominees in polling history. Unfortunately for Trump, his are not just a little bit worse.
The main question I have at this point is whether it is a blowout of historic proportions, or a more standard loss. I suspect that current polling aside Trump will outperform his current polling numbers, but if the over/under is Obama/McCain, I’m pretty sure I’ll take the under.Report
Yeah thing is sooner or later history is gonna get back from their trip.
So basically you’re of the mind that the GOP doesn’t need to break the glass now to stop Trump because Trump will just lose in the general and the only people hurt will be the GOP? Man if that doesn’t get them reaching for the red button I dunno what will.
Then again what would be worse for the GOP? Trump gets the nod, loses historically and then the GOP base looks up from their ashes and sees the old elite waiting for them? Or.. the GOP breaks the glass and kills Trump at the convention by some chicanery and then runs someone else?Report
Depends on how you define “Break the glass.” But if Trump gets to 1237, I am no longer certain they should pull out all the stops for the good of the country by changing all of the rules.
If he doesn’t get to 1237, though, all bets remain off. A plurality remains distinct from a majority.Report
Oh yes, if he doesn’t get to 1237 then it basically is Cruz unless Trump somehow bullies some unbound delegates to throw in with him or bribes one of the alsorans into giving him their support (though their delegates aren’t obligated to switch over).Report
(My above opinions being weird when juxtaposed to my continued fear of Trumpism, as distinct from Trump ’16.)Report
What if:
– 2nd quarter economic growth dips into the negative, jobless rate as well as GDP
– Daesh goes all-in with what little capital they have remaining for one last coordinated strike in mid-October
– There’s so much inertia toward running against a conventional R like Cruz that D advertising misses the mark
– Trump doesn’t even attempt to run a general election campaign, focusing on targeting disgruntled voters in flippable states and letting Clinton build up big wins in solidly blue states
Seems to me that might, possibly not even in the worst case, push us back within the error bars.Report
Economic growth – that is the perception of the state of the economy – is set right now in everyone’s head for the Nov election. The ‘bad economy’ under Bush Sr was a year before the election, and the good economy under Clinton was already starting to unravel because the tech bubble burst in March 2000.
Even for Bush Jr, while the wheels came off in the last few months of his administration, Obama didn’t win on the economic downturn, he won because he ran a good campaign – but also because Bush was deeply unpopular and had been for two years. (Though McCain lost in part because his response to the crisis wasn’t received well at all)Report
That’s a good point – while a change (in either direction!) in the economy might get a lot of publicity, it’s most likely to get traction among people who have already made up their minds in that direction.Report
I agree on the Economic front… you can only run on the economic narrative that is dominant about a year before the election.
But, the dominant narrative is slow recovery from historic recessions with most of the benefits accruing to the rich and rapidly growing inequality.
Traditionally this is sort of a screwball for Republicans; their “goose the economy” schtick plays into the hands of the rich get richer. However, this year I think its a knuckler for Democrats… they might be able to hit it out of the park – and against any other Republican probably could – but this is an issue that Trump seems to be messaging better than Hillary. As it stands now, she’s carrying the team Davos baggage and try as she will to ditch it, the luggage tags all bear her name.Report
This voter, who was traditionally Republican, voted 3rd party because they put up a blithering idiot as VP. That was the last time I considered voting Republican and won’t consider it again for a long while.Report
If history was repeating itself, Trump wouldn’t be the Republican nominee.
Yes, he’s tremendously unpopular. But so is Hillary Clinton: http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/hillary-clinton-favorable-rating
Her approval ratings are currently -14 to his -28. Not as bad, but starkly different from Obama’s +20 during the start of May 2008.
And there was a poll today that showed Trump winning the general election (granted, Rasmussen’s polling has a Republican lean), so Clinton doesn’t lead every poll.
The good news is that 1) Trump is astounding unpopular among Hispanic people; 2) as a result, Clinton has an advantage in the southwest; and 3) to win, all she needs to do is with the Southwest swing states and hold onto traditional Democratic states plus Iowa OR Virginia OR Ohio OR Florida.
On the whole, this has been a highly abnormal year for US presidential politics. I’m not going to be making any firm predictions until October. For now, I’m just worried.Report
If history was repeating itself, Trump wouldn’t be the Republican nominee.
We are one event away from a President Trump.
One news cycle dominated by (event) and Trump has it in the bag.Report
Chances are, we were already hoping that [event] didn’t happen anyway. [Event] would probably have to involve terrorism and/or war, or some massive and sudden economic calamity.Report
Hillary has the 3am thing going for her. The only way a terrorist attack helps Trump is if she and the Democrats respond by saying that we need to take this opportunity to reflect on our society anti-Muslim bigotry. (Which I am concerned she will do, but not too concerned.)
An economic meltdown could do it, but I suspect Trump’s response to that will not engender support from those already not supporting him. It would, again, require that HRC not blow it with a poor response. It would take a doozy.
So yeah, I would say maybe 1-in-20 that Trump pulls this off.Report