Wednesday Writs: January 6th Defendants Edition
WW 1: Federal prosecutors admitted to a little oopsy that violated the constitutional rights of a January 6th defendant, who sat forgotten in jail for months and was denied his right to a speedy trial. The defendant’s first court appearance was on December 14th, after which prosecutors had 30 days to indict. He had a second hearing on December 17th, and didn’t see a judge again until March 2nd, nor was he indicted until this month.
It’s not that I have a lot of sympathy for the defendant, Lucas Denney, who allegedly tried to hit a Capitol police officer with a pipe and threw things at other officers on January 6th. But it doesn’t matter who the defendant is, in my opinion, when the government is violating rights. And Denney’s lawyers tried to use the situation to his advantage, but District Court Judge Randy Moss (yes) is still deciding whether or not to bail the feds out for what the prosecutors claim was not “intentional or nefarious.”
Prosecutors concede that the charges should be dismissed because of their error, but they want the Court to do so “without prejudice,” meaning they could re-charge. Denney’s lawyers first asked for a dismissal with prejudice which would preclude them from doing so. But later in the hearing, they tried a new strategy: asking the Court to accept Denney’s guilty plea to the single count under which he is indicted, assault on an officer.
Sounds crazy, but there is some reasoning here. If Denny was adjudicated on the charge against him, there’s a significant argument that prosecutors would be prohibited by double jeopardy from bringing additional charges that stem from essentially the same January 6th incident or conduct.
Personal story on how I learned the hard way about this rule: I was a brand new lawyer and working as an assistant prosecutor in magistrate court in a small county here in West Virginia. The case involved a man whose home and property was strewn with trash and debris and he was charged with an “open dump.” Super serious stuff, right? But because I was new and gung-ho to flex my mad fledgling lawyer skills, we had a trial. Just a bench trial (no jury) but the defense attorney was one of the bigger names in the area. I subpoenaed witnesses for this, everyone. I methodically conducted my thorough direct examination, got my officer’s pictures entered into evidence, and got myself a guilty verdict. I was very pleased with myself.
“Congratulations, young lady,” said opposing counsel (gross). “Tell your boss she’ll have my motion to dismiss the meth lab indictment on her desk by tomorrow afternoon.”
The what now?
The meth lab, which had also been found at the man’s home where they found the open dump. The officers involved filed the misdemeanor open dump charge along with the felony meth lab charge. The felony was kicked up to circuit court, as it was supposed to be, but the misdemeanor case stayed in magistrate court. The dump complaint said nothing about a meth lab, nothing in my file alluded to it, and my boss never mentioned it. And since the magistrate court files were not kept in the same cabinet with the felonies I had no idea. I’m sure I looked up his name for prior offenses and may even have seen the meth lab charge, but it never occurred to me that one had anything to do with the other.
But they did. In fact, the photographs I helpfully entered into the record plainly showed meth lab garbage. Tubes, 2liter bottles, empty containers of acetone, etc. The defense attorney filed a motion to dismiss the indictment on double jeopardy grounds, arguing that he would be “twice put in jeopardy” because both crimes arose at the same time from the same circumstances and were even based on the same evidence. He won and the meth lab case disappeared forever. And forever after, I made sure no lingering misdemeanors were left behind in magistrate court when accompanied by a felony.
So back to Mr. Denney. When he finally got in front of a judge on March 2 for a hearing on his emergency motion to be released, prosecutors hurried up and secured a 1-count indictment in order to keep him detained. Likely, there are other charges that can and will be added if prosecutors are allowed to proceed. His lawyers figured if the Court would accept his plea to the only charge against him, it would preclude prosecutors from indicting him on any other additional charges arising from his alleged participation in the January 6th riots. The judge was not so sure, and reminded the lawyers that uncharged January 6th conduct could be used to enhance his potential sentence. Judge Moss declined to accept the guilty plea and reset the case for Thursday while he contemplates what to do.
As was noted by federal Magistrate Judge Zia Furuqui, who oversaw Denney’s case when it was finally brought to hearing, prosecutors have apparently bitten off much more than they can chew with this mass prosecution of over 800 January 6th defendants. Said Furuqui: “If they do not have the resources to do it, they ought not do that.”
Especially if they can’t do it constitutionally.
WW 2: A new federal law prohibits forced arbitration of sexual assault or harassment claims. Previously some states had passed similar legislation, but were arguably pre-empted by federal law that allowed employers to force claimants into arbitration instead of court.
WW 3: A few weeks ago in this space we learned that UC Berkeley claimed it would have to reduce its incoming fall class by thousands due to a court decision in favor of a neighborhood group unhappy with the university’s growth. The legislature quickly rectified the situation with a bill, promptly signed by Governor Newsom, loosens some requirements of the California Environmental Quality Act which requires universities to evaluate the potential environmental effects of their growth. The NIMBYs vow to fight on.
WW 4: Jussie Smollett was sentenced to 150 days in jail for charges arising out of his staging a fake hate crime against himself in 2019. His lawyers have asked the court for a stay on his sentencing and for his release pending appeal. Smollett is kept separate from other inmates for his own safety, which his lawyers describe as solitary confinement. They also argue he is at higher risk of contracting a severe case of Covid-19 due to a compromised immune system.
WW 5: Justice Thomas has signaled he is very interested in hearing a challenge to the “sweeping immunity” he says Section 230 gives to tech platforms. He made the statement as part of a denial of cert in the case of Jane Doe, a teenage girl who was raped and beaten by an adult she met on Facebook. The girl sued Facebook, but asked the Supreme Court to intervene when part of her claim was dismissed due to Section 230 protections. The Court denied cert without comment, but Thomas wrote separately to state that although he did not find review appropriate in Jane Doe’s case, he hopes to have another case he cares more about – er, I mean, is more ripe for review come before the court
WW4: Smollett has also received numerous death threats, which are definitely real, and likely originating from MAGA Country.Report
He’s in his own cell with access to the common room on an individual basis. He’s safe from downtown Chicago.Report
“Definitely real” meaning he and his crew have claimed this so the police should investigate him being a victim?Report
The defense attorney filed a motion to dismiss the indictment on double jeopardy grounds, arguing that he would be “twice put in jeopardy” because both crimes arose at the same time from the same circumstances and were even based on the same evidence. He won and the meth lab case disappeared forever.
Why does the same rule not preclude federal charges after being tried in state court for essentially the same crime? For example, the defendants in the Arbery case were convicted on federal charges arising from the same circumstances after being convicted of murder in state court.Report
Thinking about it some more, if being tried by a state court for a crime precluded federal prosecution, it would allow states to nullify federal law by trying and then acquitting people who violated the federal law.
It seems to me that a single crime violating both federal and state law is usually, or at least often, a sign of either the state or federal government overreaching its Constitutional authority, but the Supreme Court has a long history of turning a blind eye to federal overreach.Report
Two sovereigns.Report
WW5 not sure I get the snark. So if 2 people meet on social media and one commits a crime against the other the social media company should be held liable? What about people who already know each other but connect? Is the same true of physical spaces? Seems like more a random shot at everyone’s least favorite justice than a thoughtful legal take. Any thoughts on the personal feelings/failings of the other justices who denied cert?Report
If WW5 had gone up for review in 1999, review would have been granted and they would have found the company liable 8-1 or 7-2.Report
I don’t think that’s true. Keep in mind Section 230 is part of the larger Communications Decency Act, much of which was gutted as unconstitutional in 1997. That was back when the ACLU was truly a force for good in our society.Report
I could *EASILY* see AOL being held liable for something. “Should have vetted the age/identity of users.”
This was back in the days of “never, ever meet someone who you meet on the internet” and I’m trying to think of a politician who wouldn’t have seen an opportunity to stick it to anybody/everybody from Microsoft to AOL to the cat5 companies.Report
I dunno about that. Read the history of the CDA. The bill was intended to curb the scourge of online pornography peddlers and similar seedy actors. Section 230 was a specific sop given to carriers and some forward-looking members of Congress who understood the commercial potential of the internet and were worried that exact kind of liability would strangle it in the crib.Report
The bill was intended to curb the scourge of online pornography peddlers and similar seedy actors.
Um, how’s that working out?Report
Obviously poorly. The provisions intended to do that were held unconstitutional very quickly.Report
One bit of perspective that’s been lost to time is that Section 230 was one part of a bill that was otherwise widely recognized as censorious dogshit.
Part of it was the times, as the ‘90s were way heavier on censorship than now, and with broader alignment on what was unacceptableReport
If the crime were limited to (mostly legal) 1st Amendment stuff, I’d agree.
But two people meeting up and having a sufficiently lurid crime occur would have thrown a wrench into everything.
At the very least, it would have been granted cert. Maybe the discussions of why it wouldn’t have been granted cert 25 years hence would have come up in oral arguments, but we would have had those oral arguments.Report
I suppose anything is possible.Report
IIRC, the point of section 230 was to allow service providers to make good-faith efforts to remove offensive or illegal material without incurring liability for material they failed to remove. Prior to that, they had had to make a choice between being totally neutral common carriers (no liability, but unable to discriminate with respect to which content they carried) or publishers (able to pick and choose what content to carry, but liable for everything).Report
That’s a generally hard problem. I’m not committed to current section 230, but I haven’t seen anything yet that threads the needle any better.Report
The origins are certainly peculiar and in certain ways accidental but its become a load bearing column. I also think it’s a big part of the reason the internet is so American. Inadvertently or not its ended up capturing our freedom of speech culture that doesn’t exist in the UK or Europe where hurt feelings alone are actionable and certainly not in Asia.
Anyway I’ve heard lots of broad-minded, principled reasons for keeping it. Conversely I’ve never heard arguments for getting rid of it that aren’t self-interested, parochial, or authoritarian.Report
Likewise, I’ve never heard arguments against anti-SLAPP laws that don’t amount to “But then we wouldn’t be able to shut those people up.”Report
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The other justices didn’t write a concurrence about how they actually do think these platforms should maybe be held accountable and they should look into that, but not in this case, even though “Facebook allegedly ‘knows its system facilitates human traffickers in identifying and cultivating victims,’ but has nonetheless ‘failed to take any reasonable steps to mitigate the use of Facebook by human traffickers’ because doing so would cost the company users — and the advertising revenue those users generate,” per Thomas.
Also he’s not my least favorite Justice. That’s Alito.Report
Mine least favorite is probably also Alito.
But come on. Heavy lifting doesn’t even come close to describing the amount of work ‘reasonable’ is doing in that assertion. I get that the entire political class has some completely principled and totally non self-interested special pleading about why they need to be allowed to regulate online speech and/or hold tech liable for various grievances. I have my own thoughts on that too. But this is asking the courts to force deep pocketed clients to hand out windfalls for the criminal conduct of third parties. It’s a terrible idea and totally unworkable.Report
I don’t necessarily disagree with you. My point is Thomas DOES seem to think they should be held accountable and is begging for the chance to make that determination, but not in this case in which a teenage girl was raped and beaten.
I admit I’m being uncharitable to Thomas here in suggesting he is apathetic to the awful thing that befell this girl. But I think at the very least he could have kept quiet here, instead of expressing his eagerness to gut 230 while admitting he doesn’t think the court should address it in this case even though he thinks it might apply. Report
If the issue is one of justices needing to do better about resisting their urges to comment on live political issues not before the court I’m definitely with you.Report
To the Supremes credit, they weren’t interested in holding it responsible for the actions of a 3rd party in this instance.
Facebook has had a lot of bricks thrown at it for not understanding that it was being used as a tool by hate groups and even facilitating genocide. Various people have wondered if it should be regulated as a utility.
I’m not sure to what degree FB tries to police itself and to what degree it puts its profits over its ethics. I’m not sure where Thomas wants to move the line.
FB is this weird combo of moderated but not moderated.Report
Thomas might be my favorite. He writes for history, and he strikes me as consistent. I like the little I’ve noticed of Kavanaugh, and Roberts takes the Chief job seriously. Sotomayor is my least favorite; she’s the most predictable of the bunch from a political perspective.Report
I think Thomas is on his absolute best day a mere shadow of Scalia. The latter, love him or hate him, was a jurist that I think even his biggest critics would admit having to take seriously, and not just because he was on the supreme court. I see Thomas as trying to do his best impression of that but more often than not being an old man yelling at clouds. Call it the difference between looking to an originalist philosophy for guidance versus ignoring that many things have in fact transpired, including in the law, since the 19th century.Report
Scalia was always great to read even though I disagree with about 95% of his conclusions. Alito and Thomas are whiney NIMBY’s who are perfectly happy to close off avenues and rights afforded to them when others seek them. Roberts takes his job seriously, but has the Achilles heel of hiding behind others rather then leading on controversial issues. Gorsuch has surprised me with some of his opinions, and he may yet move into Scalia territory with his writings. I find Kavanaugh and Barret mostly ignorable. Sotomayor and Kagan are indeed solidly in opposition to Alito and Thomas, and probably under play their writing chops.Report
Thomas is doomed to be always compared to Scalia. Thomas isn’t the wordsmith Scalia was, but I admire his utter contempt for precedent he considers wrongly decided. Also, I think he gets a lot of guff for preferring to address the legal documents over the lawyers, which just seems consistent for a “letter of the law” guy.Report
I think to be truly formidable you need both. The writing is what will live on. But oral argument is where you can be really forced to confront issues that can get zig-zagged around or just lose their umph. My totally subjective opinion is also that a lot of inflation of weak ideas goes on in paper due to the lack of an adversarial voice forcing you to re-check the soundness of your premise.Report
I can see that last part being true in a lot of *other* situations.Report
It can be and you 100% need both. But if you want to see an example of what I’m talking about re: oral argument I actually think Jaybird’s post on Citizens United does an excellent job. The exchange he quotes is not something that’s going to be captured nearly as well in a brief but it’s critical to understanding the case.
https://ordinary-times.com/2019/06/09/relitigating-stuff-everybody-agrees-on/Report
PD Shaw had a great comment: “I initially thought this was a very well-written parody of the oral argument.”Report
There is a probative value to it that really can’t be replicated. Obviously it also has its flaws and there are various sleights of hand that can happen. Nevertheless there is a reason every person with authoritarian ideas wants to be able to have their debates in writing only or under non-adversarial rules.
But anyway to tie it back to Thomas this is why his historical dearth of engagement at oral argument is rightly criticized. Not everyone is going to be Scalia but If you aren’t ever participating it creates valid questions about whether you actually understand what’s going on.Report
I remember reading somewhere that Thomas has started asking opening questions. (It was either here or NPR or something. The article covers the relevant changes.)
Has he wandered back to not asking questions?Report
I don’t believe he has gone back. However I think it went on long enough that it will always be part of any discussion of his stature.Report
One bit of perspective that’s been lost to time is that Section 230 was one part of a bill that was otherwise widely recognized as censorious dogshit.
Part of it was the times, as the ‘90s were way heavier on censorship than now, and with broader alignment on what was unacceptableReport
I find Kavanaugh and Sotomayor to be the relative intellectual lightweights of the bench. I have a love/hate relationship with Gorsuch. Agree with Roberts’ sincerity, not sure yet on Barrett though I think she, Kagan and Gorsuch are likely the smartest of the bunch, and have never found Breyer to be particularly influential.Report
I guess we agree on Sotomayor, Roberts, Kagan, Breyer, and not being sure about Barrett. I’m just unversed on Gorsuch.
ETA: With Roberts, I meant more than sincerity. I think he’s a very different Chief Justice than he would have been an Associate Justice.Report
I think there is an inherent tension between having a hardcore intellectual legal philosophy that you believe is right, let the chips fall where they may, and a deep appreciation of what the court is as an institution in the American system of government. I don’t want to say these things are mutually exclusive but I think where a justice falls on that spectrum tends to be more telling than which party nominated them. IMO they’re all fairly characterized as more one than the other.Report
“It doesn’t matter who the defendant is, in my opinion, when the government is violating rights.”
This is not a matter of opinion. It’s the premise that the American system is based on. That the American system does not support government violation of civil liberties of anyone should be taken as fact, not opinion, by every American citizen and particularly so when it’s a person educated in the law.
Government violating civil liberties even when it’s people “we” don’t like is bad juju. Even if ya don’t buy into the gross immorality of the powerful being allowed to violate the rights of individuals that “they” don’t particularly like, as an issue of pure practicality (when the government has the ability use the law to violate the civil liberties of the people I don’t like, they also have the ability to use legal means to violate the civil liberties of people I DO like) it’s unquestionably stupid to allow that as a matter of personal self-preservation.
That there are people on this site who call themselves lawyers (not Em, but others) who take that fundamental fact about the American system as a matter of opinion is dismaying and speaks to the fundamental intellectual dishonesty of some of the commentors here.Report
They take it “as a matter of opinion” because the legal systems shows over and over and over that this is not in fact true. Even after the laws of the land were amended to extend liberty and “rights” to women, people of color and a host of other oppressed groups, the courts still oppress them. A great deal of intellectual and monetary capitol is STILL being spent (to say nothing of the political capitol) to assure the truth of what you assert. This is in no way a done deal.Report
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a lawyer here at OT support prosecuting parents for providing gender affirming care for their kids.
But if they did, I’d be the first to call them out on it.Report
What about legalizing marijuana?Report
Lots of people here and elsewhere favor it. But that’s a question of policy on which reasonable people can disagree, not a question of selectively-recognized rights, which seems to have been KD’s point.Report
Seems to me that the related rights are pretty selectively recognized and have been for decades.
Therefore… um. I don’t know what the therefore should be.Report
Of course not.Report
The only thing that is “a matter of opinion” is what rights people actually have, which is a lively subject of discussion among lawyers, others who know what they are talking about, and, since it’s a more-or-less free country, others who don’t. People often think they have rights they don’t actually have. There are rights I wish I had that I don’t, but I don’t confuse that with my having those rights.Report
The California legislature passed the bill to save Berkeley’s enrollment unanimously or close to unanimously which is pretty impressive when going up against NIMBYs. NIMBYs appear to be the Orangemen of American politics. They might as well make their slogan “NIMBYs will fight and NIMBYs will be right.” I imagine the next step for them is going to be a referendum to overturn the law. Shudder.Report
NIMBYism is similar to anti-abortion in that their zealous pursuit of it warps and distorts every other thing they claim to believe in.Report
This is a pretty wild analogy, but it also seems to be an accurate oneReport
I read it as Chip saw a subthread that wasn’t criticizing conservatives and had to put something in. Besides, Chip doesn’t believe what he said, at least based on prior comments. Opposing abortion is one piece of the colossal white straight male Christian domination game, so how could opposing abortion be the cause of corruption?Report
Next thing, Chip will be discussing the innocent days of McCarthy and how the 1960’s South saw an era of compassion.Report
And if Chip believed this, he would have gone from being a Kemp supporter to libertarianism (all the econ without the pro-life pressure).Report
Opposing abortion is one piece of the colossal white straight male Christian domination game, so how could opposing abortion be the cause of corruption?
I’m not Chip, but I’d argue that opposing abortion is a major goal of people who value perpetuating white straight male Christian domination, but that the converse is not true. They’re an important part of the anti-abortion coalition that actually exists, and one that has had a baleful influence on the coalition as a whole.
Then, because they are an important part of a coalition that is, overall, very zealous they end up distorting the priorities of the movement as a whole, leads to evaporative ideological cooling, and then leads to knock-on effects like the ones Chip describes.
The anti-abortion movement is not the only one subject to this, and there are other examples of movements that I’m much more sympathetic to (ranging from gun rights to environmentalism to advocacy for the rights of Palestinians) where I would point to a similar process.Report
I am Chip, and I approve of this message.Report
This checks out.Report
Interesting take… I’d put it down to having priorities.
When your top priority disagrees with your next 10, or worse, when all 9 of your top priorities disagree with your tenth, then there’s an argument that you don’t really value your lower priorities, you just want to think you do.Report
Kind of what I was driving at, where the priority for accomplishing the goal (ending abortion or protecting property values) outweighs other considerations like small government or economic equality.Report
I think it’s mistaking a sentiment for a policy.
If you ask “should abortion be illegal?”, you will hear many pro-lifers say “yes!”
If you ask “should police arrest women who get abortions?”, you will hear the overwhelming majority of them sputter in anger and wonder why in the hell that you’re changing the subject.
The sentiment “abortion shouldn’t be an option” turns into “there oughta be a law” and “there oughta be a law” turns into “make abortion illegal!” and the questions of what “illegal” means IN PRACTICE turns into sputters.
To bring Russia into this, I’ve heard that people argue that the US should enforce a No Fly Zone over the Ukraine and, when asked if that means that the US should shoot down Russian planes, the answer comes “of course not!”
Or, put another way:
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If a woman gets arrested for an abortion, what percentage of pro-lifers will recoil in horror and vote to overturn the law?
Rough numbers, I think maybe 10%. The other 90% will nod and scroll down to Wordle.
I will show my work if anyone disagrees.Report
I agree with the whole “nod, scroll down to wordle” thing.
It’s really only once the sentiment starts having truly adverse effects that you see people explain that, seriously, you have to understand.
An interesting example in San Francisco right now is the Chesa recall. I am sure that, two years ago, we would have had quite a boisterous discussion of the importance of restraint on the part of prosecutors with an emphasis on compassion and addressing root causes.
And, well, in the current year… let me see if I can find a sufficiently non-partisan source…
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I think the whole progressive prosecutor thing is less sentiment and more vocal activists not understanding the issues. The whole approach is a front end solution for a back end problem. Like you’d probably do more about mass incarceration by just across the board dropping the max sentence 5 years for every non capital offense. That and mandating diversion off ramps and eliminating enhancement factors. While this is hard, it has the benefit of maybe actually doing something. Instead they went for ‘we’re just going to stop arresting or prosecuting on the front end.’ HL Mencken has a quote about it, that you could probably apply to the entire pop criminal justice reform movement starting from Memorial Day weekend 2020.Report
I should write a post asking “What is the point of Criminal Justice?”
Because I’m pretty sure that it’s yet another thing where there are umpty-ump groups discussing umpty-ump issues and they’re all using the same vocabulary but entirely different definitions.Report
Yeah, the past 50 years (and the centuries before that) no one’s ever talked about abortion law or even reasoned out what it would look like. That Texas law isn’t really on a piece of paper; it was just someone sputtering in anger then the legislature voted “aye”. The Alabama law too. Just hillbilly grunts and confused looks when someone asked for specifics.Report
For instance, when Kevin Williamson was fired from The Atlantic for arguing that women should be punished for getting abortions, a lot of high profile, highly regarded members of the conservative commentariat insisted that he had a mainstream position on the Right.
Sure, they were arguing less from any ideological conviction or sociological observation, and more from wanting to cover for their buddy after the libs got him canned… but, uh, I think that goes to Chip’s original point.
As for the Texas law, it is indeed on a piece of paper, and the reasoned-out consequences look just amazingly good, let me tell you.
In this case, I’d have to say Chip’s line of argument–or Jaybird’s, FTM–is much more charitable than yours.Report
I think that Kevin Williamson was fired for making a reductio and being stupid about it.
If abortion is murder, then a handful of things follow from a murder.
P -> Q, if you will.
If you look at the situation and say that Q is absurd. Like, Q isn’t even on the table. Q is stupid. What the hell?!?!? Then you know ~Q.
And if you know both ~Q at the same time that you know P -> Q, then you also know that ~P.
But people want to argue P and argue ~Q at the same time and get upset about people who ask about P->Q as if they’re being dishonest.Report
That was an article detailing how women in Texas aren’t being arrested for having abortions. The Alabama law doesn’t arrest women for having abortions. The law in Poland doesn’t. As near as I can tell, the only country that does is El Salvador. So yeah, talking about women going to prison for having abortions is changing the subject.Report
Breaking laws typically involves punishment, and the police getting involved.
Wanting something outlawed almost by definition means someone is going to die because the police are enforcing the law.
That’s everything from selling loosies to junkies randomly breaking windows because they’re high.
If you want to outlaw abortion as murder but you don’t want the police enforcing the law, then you don’t believe it’s murder and you don’t really want to outlaw it.Report
This is (almost) amusing.
“We aren’t arresting people for abortion! Suing them into bankruptcy, sure, and having armed marshals forcibly confiscate their stuff . But not arresting them!”
What’s weird is that they think this makes them sound “moderate”.Report
I’m making a distinction between abortion providers and abortion seekers. The laws I pointed to make that distinction. You’re not making it.Report
And you think this makes it better somehow?Report
I think it makes the talk about arresting moms moot.Report
Does it make talk about women frantically truying to escape to a free state to avoid dying from ectopic pregnancies moot?
Or raped teenagers dying from self-induced abortions, are we not allowed to talk about them?
Its like you think “arresting women” is somehow the bad part.Report
It’s the thing you guys brought up, so I’m talking about it. Would you rather talk about abortions due to ectopic pregnancies? The Texas law doesn’t ban those. Would you rather talk about abortions in the case of rape? The Texas law doesn’t ban those either. It’s been a longish thread, but I don’t remember if you’ve brought up a single real point.Report
Would you rather talk about abortions in the case of rape? The Texas law doesn’t ban those either.
Yeah if the victim can get it within the two weeks following her missed period: it makes no exception for rape.
Abbot says we just need to eliminate rape so at least the proposed solution is extremely easy and plausible.Report
Thinking about this tweet, it might be describing a good thing, if it’s that Americans would prefer a particular outcome but don’t want the government involved.Report
Expressing a desire for an outcome while actively diswanting a particular policy is expressing a sentiment.
(Nothing wrong with expressing a sentiment! I express them all the time!)Report
I think it’s more a combination of the tendency of heavily political people to project their priors into everything and the inherent limitations of polls to reflect nuance.
You know the routine. Do you want universal government funded healthcare? Yes! Would you pay a 48% marginal tax rate to support it? No! Do you think climate change is a crisis? Yes! Would you pay a carbon tax to stop it? No! Do you support common sense gun control? Yes! Even if it meant you personally would never be allowed to own a handgun? No!Report
The pattern get broken with NIMBYs and abortion is what I’m claiming.
Do you want to preserve property values? YES
Even if this means poor students can’t rent in Berkeley? YES
Do you want to stop abortion, even if it means a woman dies from an ectopic pregnancy? YES
Now, to be fair it will take a lot of interrogation to get to those final YESes but eventually they will get there.Report
My response to Pinky was really just to push back on the idea that there’s a small-l libertarian sentiment underlying the phenomenon. I think it’s fickleness and the political wishy-washiness of the average Joe.
I’m still chewing on your original point, but I think I might agree, at least as it was restated by pillsy.Report
But nobody claims to believe in NIMBYism. That’s the problem with your theory. NIMBY isn’t a position which is held consistently, it’s a kind of inconsistency. It’s saying I believe in A, B, and C, but not near me. NIMBY can be a rallying cry, but not as a principle.Report
Also – this is kind of getting tied up with my response to InMD both in subject and in layout, but you’ve previously said that you don’t accept any limiting principles. Which makes your stand on all this facetious.Report
Given how much magic thinking is involved?
All pregnancies go well, all babies are well formed, and there is no reason to have an abortion other then wanting to save time.
Ergo we outlaw abortion and there are no side effects, everyone will simply follow the law.
No, you’re not allowed to question the basic definitions of reality just like you’re not allowed to question the basic mechanics of religion.Report
Yeah, it could be. That’s one way of reading Snek’s tweet. It’s probably what he meant. But the scenario he described isn’t necessarily a bad one. My first thought was that it could indicate limiting principles. Another possibility is believing in the general idea but not the specific way of getting there. I could believe in, say, universal health care, but also believe that the best way to attain it is with an expansion of Medicare with tight rationing and all costs covered through estate taxes.Report
Sure I think there’s probably some of that baked in. And I want to be clear even where there isn’t I’m not saying wishy-washy is totally a bad thing. I think you and I may have lightly touched on my view on that subject in some of the voting rights posts. I have a strong suspicion that it’s the single issue voters and the incoherent people and even the straight up ignorant that keep the system shuffling along. I know that’s not what you meant by limiting principle but they’re certainly a force for moderation.Report
ww4: Smollett’s sentence has been stayed pending disposition of his appeal by a 2-1 Appellate Court decision. His 150 day sentence would likely have meant 75 days in jail with good behavior. The main finding is here:
“FINDING that the defendant has been convicted on non-violent offenses and that this Court will be unable to dispose of the instant appeal before the defendant would have served his entire sentence of incarceration . . .”Report
Looks like he raised double jeopardy claims based upon the State Attorney’s original dismissal of his criminal case. Because of ethical issues, a special prosecutor was appointed who filed new charges, and he was convicted of five out of six of these. Smollett’s attorney’s unsuccessfully filed various motions prior to trial (double-jeopardy, breach of contract, and lack of authority for a special prosecutor), but these order(s) were not appealed prior to trial.
The prosecutor argued three points:
1. The case was dismissed nolle prosequi and double jeopardy does not attach to a mere decision not to prosecute before jeopardy attaches.
2. Smollett claims that his forfeiture of the bond constituted jeopardy. But the prosecutor claims that was an entirely voluntary act, not ordered by the court and there were no findings of guilt or innocent.
3. Also, in appointing a special prosecutor, the judge found that all of the previous filings were void because there was no duly appointed State’s Attorney. (I believe this has to do with the State’s Attorney recusing herself, but not actually recusing herself)Report
Here were my thoughts on Smollett and it’s going down just about as I predicted, and it’s just as much a waste of time and money as I said it would be.Report
It showcased that the narrative can be stupid and is subject to abuse. It kept Smollett in the papers, first as an idiot and now as a lunatic, which helped his career burn. On the whole it feels like justice.Report
I guess it depends on who was wasting whose time & money. The sentence included $120,106 in restitution to the City for wasted time investigating the hoax. I don’t begrudge trying to get money back, at the very least to deter future schemes.
I think my previous thoughts were that the State’s Attorney had screwed over Smollett by not settling through some alternative program, but these would have required acceptance of responsibility, even if impaired by drugs or mental health issues. I don’t think I realized how much media Smollett was generating in his quest to be a civil rights icon.
If I’m understanding the issues in this appeal, they are not going to exonerate him from the public’s perspective. He went to trial and was convicted. (I’m surprised that his lawyers didn’t appeal the double jeopardy issue before trial for this reason) We haven’t heard the last of Jussie Smollett.Report
He’s a “famous at any cost” guy and he’s politically/socially connected. He might also be mentally ill.
I predict something wild and crazy.Report
I can’t imagine he’ll be able to finagle someone into paying him to act in a television show or film though.Report
Mainstream no. Something for the extreme woke and/or activist maybe.
He’s now a name. There’s got to be a way to monetize that even if I can’t think how.
Now maybe his personality and dignity and whatever won’t let him do whatever.Report
“Our special guest tonight on the Joe Rogan Show- A guy who is just asking questions about the Mainstream Media…”Report
“A young black man unjustly convicted for a crime that no white man would even be charged over. He showcases the serious inequalities in the system. After the prosecutor decided to ignore this so called crime…”
That’s darn close to quoting some recent editorial. He still has supporters.Report
As a Jussie Smollett Truther, I want to know whether Empire is even a television show.Report
Neither Holy, nor Roman, nor on TV.Report
I never watched it, but reading it’s wiki it sounds like Smollett was really doing well and adding a lot to the series. It ran 6 seasons. Smollett was so popular that even after he self destructed Fox still picked up an option to put him back on the show (but never did).
By Actor standards Smollett was successful. Not A list but solid B or C or something. Fully employed (that puts him in the upper 1% of actors right there) on a major show plus misc. He had access to serious roles in movies to try to break out.
Pulling a STUNT is probably expected. That stunt being a hate crime probably speaks to where his head is at more than anything else… although at this point I’m wondering if we’re in mental illness territory.Report
Re: the Smollet case, which everyone thought couldn’t get any more bananas: The 2 guys Smollet hired to rough him up are suing his lawyer for slander.
https://cookcountyrecord.com/stories/622170705-judge-again-nixes-bid-by-smollett-lawyer-to-escape-nigerian-bros-slander-suit-over-whiteface-claim
I think the restitution and sentence were fair. It is amusing to me as a Chicagoan that the police say they devoted all that time to investigating the purported crime when these days they can hardly be bothered to get out of the squad car.Report
Of course they devoted all that time to it. Look at the time sheets! The little text box says “investigated smollett case”!Report
No doubt racking up plenty of OT.Report
Smollett and his family are rich, famous, and connected to the Prosecutor. Of course it’s going to attract attention, that was the point.
That and his other statements makes me wonder if we’re in mental illness territory. He wanted it to be taken extremely seriously, but didn’t want it taken seriously.
The counter argument is the various other activists at a college level who have also faked hate crimes to attract attention. Ergo it may simply be an obvious button to push that you don’t expect to REALLY be investigated with the resources the gov has and taken seriously.Report
The last paragraph is what I’d hold. He probably expected it to be taken at face value.Report
If you believe, as an article of faith, American racist oppression is everywhere then you can reasonably expect your staged event to be one drop in the ocean.
The problem is “article of faith” puts us into “religion” territory.Report