Wednesday Writs: January 6th Defendants Edition

Em Carpenter

Em was one of those argumentative children who was sarcastically encouraged to become a lawyer, so she did. She is a proud life-long West Virginian, and, paradoxically, a liberal. In addition to writing about society, politics and culture, she enjoys cooking, podcasts, reading, and pretending to be a runner. She will correct your grammar. You can find her on Twitter.

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106 Responses

  1. Brandon Berg says:

    WW4: Smollett has also received numerous death threats, which are definitely real, and likely originating from MAGA Country.Report

  2. Brandon Berg says:

    The defense attorney filed a motion to dismiss the indictment on double jeopardy grounds, arguing that he would be “twice put in jeopardy” because both crimes arose at the same time from the same circumstances and were even based on the same evidence. He won and the meth lab case disappeared forever.

    Why does the same rule not preclude federal charges after being tried in state court for essentially the same crime? For example, the defendants in the Arbery case were convicted on federal charges arising from the same circumstances after being convicted of murder in state court.Report

    • Brandon Berg in reply to Brandon Berg says:

      Thinking about it some more, if being tried by a state court for a crime precluded federal prosecution, it would allow states to nullify federal law by trying and then acquitting people who violated the federal law.

      It seems to me that a single crime violating both federal and state law is usually, or at least often, a sign of either the state or federal government overreaching its Constitutional authority, but the Supreme Court has a long history of turning a blind eye to federal overreach.Report

    • Em Carpenter in reply to Brandon Berg says:

      Two sovereigns.Report

  3. InMD says:

    WW5 not sure I get the snark. So if 2 people meet on social media and one commits a crime against the other the social media company should be held liable? What about people who already know each other but connect? Is the same true of physical spaces? Seems like more a random shot at everyone’s least favorite justice than a thoughtful legal take. Any thoughts on the personal feelings/failings of the other justices who denied cert?Report

    • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

      If WW5 had gone up for review in 1999, review would have been granted and they would have found the company liable 8-1 or 7-2.Report

      • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

        I don’t think that’s true. Keep in mind Section 230 is part of the larger Communications Decency Act, much of which was gutted as unconstitutional in 1997. That was back when the ACLU was truly a force for good in our society.Report

        • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

          I could *EASILY* see AOL being held liable for something. “Should have vetted the age/identity of users.”

          This was back in the days of “never, ever meet someone who you meet on the internet” and I’m trying to think of a politician who wouldn’t have seen an opportunity to stick it to anybody/everybody from Microsoft to AOL to the cat5 companies.Report

          • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

            I dunno about that. Read the history of the CDA. The bill was intended to curb the scourge of online pornography peddlers and similar seedy actors. Section 230 was a specific sop given to carriers and some forward-looking members of Congress who understood the commercial potential of the internet and were worried that exact kind of liability would strangle it in the crib.Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD says:

              The bill was intended to curb the scourge of online pornography peddlers and similar seedy actors.

              Um, how’s that working out?Report

              • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Obviously poorly. The provisions intended to do that were held unconstitutional very quickly.Report

              • pillsy in reply to InMD says:

                One bit of perspective that’s been lost to time is that Section 230 was one part of a bill that was otherwise widely recognized as censorious dogshit.

                Part of it was the times, as the ‘90s were way heavier on censorship than now, and with broader alignment on what was unacceptableReport

            • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

              If the crime were limited to (mostly legal) 1st Amendment stuff, I’d agree.

              But two people meeting up and having a sufficiently lurid crime occur would have thrown a wrench into everything.

              At the very least, it would have been granted cert. Maybe the discussions of why it wouldn’t have been granted cert 25 years hence would have come up in oral arguments, but we would have had those oral arguments.Report

            • Brandon Berg in reply to InMD says:

              IIRC, the point of section 230 was to allow service providers to make good-faith efforts to remove offensive or illegal material without incurring liability for material they failed to remove. Prior to that, they had had to make a choice between being totally neutral common carriers (no liability, but unable to discriminate with respect to which content they carried) or publishers (able to pick and choose what content to carry, but liable for everything).Report

              • CJColucci in reply to Brandon Berg says:

                That’s a generally hard problem. I’m not committed to current section 230, but I haven’t seen anything yet that threads the needle any better.Report

              • InMD in reply to CJColucci says:

                The origins are certainly peculiar and in certain ways accidental but its become a load bearing column. I also think it’s a big part of the reason the internet is so American. Inadvertently or not its ended up capturing our freedom of speech culture that doesn’t exist in the UK or Europe where hurt feelings alone are actionable and certainly not in Asia.

                Anyway I’ve heard lots of broad-minded, principled reasons for keeping it. Conversely I’ve never heard arguments for getting rid of it that aren’t self-interested, parochial, or authoritarian.Report

              • Mike Schilling in reply to InMD says:

                Likewise, I’ve never heard arguments against anti-SLAPP laws that don’t amount to “But then we wouldn’t be able to shut those people up.”Report

              • “One of the things I’m going to do if I win, and I hope we do and we’re certainly leading. I’m going to open up our libel laws so when they write purposely negative and horrible and false articles, we can sue them and win lots of money. We’re going to open up those libel laws. So when The New York Times writes a hit piece which is a total disgrace or when The Washington Post, which is there for other reasons, writes a hit piece, we can sue them and win money instead of having no chance of winning because they’re totally protected,

                Report

    • Em Carpenter in reply to InMD says:

      The other justices didn’t write a concurrence about how they actually do think these platforms should maybe be held accountable and they should look into that, but not in this case, even though “Facebook allegedly ‘knows its system facilitates human traffickers in identifying and cultivating victims,’ but has nonetheless ‘failed to take any reasonable steps to mitigate the use of Facebook by human traffickers’ because doing so would cost the company users — and the advertising revenue those users generate,” per Thomas.

      Also he’s not my least favorite Justice. That’s Alito.Report

      • InMD in reply to Em Carpenter says:

        Mine least favorite is probably also Alito.

        But come on. Heavy lifting doesn’t even come close to describing the amount of work ‘reasonable’ is doing in that assertion. I get that the entire political class has some completely principled and totally non self-interested special pleading about why they need to be allowed to regulate online speech and/or hold tech liable for various grievances. I have my own thoughts on that too. But this is asking the courts to force deep pocketed clients to hand out windfalls for the criminal conduct of third parties. It’s a terrible idea and totally unworkable.Report

        • Em Carpenter in reply to InMD says:

          I don’t necessarily disagree with you. My point is Thomas DOES seem to think they should be held accountable and is begging for the chance to make that determination, but not in this case in which a teenage girl was raped and beaten.
          I admit I’m being uncharitable to Thomas here in suggesting he is apathetic to the awful thing that befell this girl. But I think at the very least he could have kept quiet here, instead of expressing his eagerness to gut 230 while admitting he doesn’t think the court should address it in this case even though he thinks it might apply. Report

      • Dark Matter in reply to Em Carpenter says:

        To the Supremes credit, they weren’t interested in holding it responsible for the actions of a 3rd party in this instance.

        Facebook has had a lot of bricks thrown at it for not understanding that it was being used as a tool by hate groups and even facilitating genocide. Various people have wondered if it should be regulated as a utility.

        I’m not sure to what degree FB tries to police itself and to what degree it puts its profits over its ethics. I’m not sure where Thomas wants to move the line.

        FB is this weird combo of moderated but not moderated.Report

    • Pinky in reply to InMD says:

      Thomas might be my favorite. He writes for history, and he strikes me as consistent. I like the little I’ve noticed of Kavanaugh, and Roberts takes the Chief job seriously. Sotomayor is my least favorite; she’s the most predictable of the bunch from a political perspective.Report

      • InMD in reply to Pinky says:

        I think Thomas is on his absolute best day a mere shadow of Scalia. The latter, love him or hate him, was a jurist that I think even his biggest critics would admit having to take seriously, and not just because he was on the supreme court. I see Thomas as trying to do his best impression of that but more often than not being an old man yelling at clouds. Call it the difference between looking to an originalist philosophy for guidance versus ignoring that many things have in fact transpired, including in the law, since the 19th century.Report

        • Philip H in reply to InMD says:

          Scalia was always great to read even though I disagree with about 95% of his conclusions. Alito and Thomas are whiney NIMBY’s who are perfectly happy to close off avenues and rights afforded to them when others seek them. Roberts takes his job seriously, but has the Achilles heel of hiding behind others rather then leading on controversial issues. Gorsuch has surprised me with some of his opinions, and he may yet move into Scalia territory with his writings. I find Kavanaugh and Barret mostly ignorable. Sotomayor and Kagan are indeed solidly in opposition to Alito and Thomas, and probably under play their writing chops.Report

        • Pinky in reply to InMD says:

          Thomas is doomed to be always compared to Scalia. Thomas isn’t the wordsmith Scalia was, but I admire his utter contempt for precedent he considers wrongly decided. Also, I think he gets a lot of guff for preferring to address the legal documents over the lawyers, which just seems consistent for a “letter of the law” guy.Report

          • InMD in reply to Pinky says:

            I think to be truly formidable you need both. The writing is what will live on. But oral argument is where you can be really forced to confront issues that can get zig-zagged around or just lose their umph. My totally subjective opinion is also that a lot of inflation of weak ideas goes on in paper due to the lack of an adversarial voice forcing you to re-check the soundness of your premise.Report

            • Pinky in reply to InMD says:

              I can see that last part being true in a lot of *other* situations.Report

              • InMD in reply to Pinky says:

                It can be and you 100% need both. But if you want to see an example of what I’m talking about re: oral argument I actually think Jaybird’s post on Citizens United does an excellent job. The exchange he quotes is not something that’s going to be captured nearly as well in a brief but it’s critical to understanding the case.

                https://ordinary-times.com/2019/06/09/relitigating-stuff-everybody-agrees-on/Report

              • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

                PD Shaw had a great comment: “I initially thought this was a very well-written parody of the oral argument.”Report

              • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

                There is a probative value to it that really can’t be replicated. Obviously it also has its flaws and there are various sleights of hand that can happen. Nevertheless there is a reason every person with authoritarian ideas wants to be able to have their debates in writing only or under non-adversarial rules.

                But anyway to tie it back to Thomas this is why his historical dearth of engagement at oral argument is rightly criticized. Not everyone is going to be Scalia but If you aren’t ever participating it creates valid questions about whether you actually understand what’s going on.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

                I remember reading somewhere that Thomas has started asking opening questions. (It was either here or NPR or something. The article covers the relevant changes.)

                Has he wandered back to not asking questions?Report

              • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

                I don’t believe he has gone back. However I think it went on long enough that it will always be part of any discussion of his stature.Report

      • pillsy in reply to Pinky says:

        One bit of perspective that’s been lost to time is that Section 230 was one part of a bill that was otherwise widely recognized as censorious dogshit.

        Part of it was the times, as the ‘90s were way heavier on censorship than now, and with broader alignment on what was unacceptableReport

      • Em Carpenter in reply to Pinky says:

        I find Kavanaugh and Sotomayor to be the relative intellectual lightweights of the bench. I have a love/hate relationship with Gorsuch. Agree with Roberts’ sincerity, not sure yet on Barrett though I think she, Kagan and Gorsuch are likely the smartest of the bunch, and have never found Breyer to be particularly influential.Report

        • Pinky in reply to Em Carpenter says:

          I guess we agree on Sotomayor, Roberts, Kagan, Breyer, and not being sure about Barrett. I’m just unversed on Gorsuch.

          ETA: With Roberts, I meant more than sincerity. I think he’s a very different Chief Justice than he would have been an Associate Justice.Report

        • InMD in reply to Em Carpenter says:

          I think there is an inherent tension between having a hardcore intellectual legal philosophy that you believe is right, let the chips fall where they may, and a deep appreciation of what the court is as an institution in the American system of government. I don’t want to say these things are mutually exclusive but I think where a justice falls on that spectrum tends to be more telling than which party nominated them. IMO they’re all fairly characterized as more one than the other.Report

  4. “It doesn’t matter who the defendant is, in my opinion, when the government is violating rights.”

    This is not a matter of opinion. It’s the premise that the American system is based on. That the American system does not support government violation of civil liberties of anyone should be taken as fact, not opinion, by every American citizen and particularly so when it’s a person educated in the law.

    Government violating civil liberties even when it’s people “we” don’t like is bad juju. Even if ya don’t buy into the gross immorality of the powerful being allowed to violate the rights of individuals that “they” don’t particularly like, as an issue of pure practicality (when the government has the ability use the law to violate the civil liberties of the people I don’t like, they also have the ability to use legal means to violate the civil liberties of people I DO like) it’s unquestionably stupid to allow that as a matter of personal self-preservation.

    That there are people on this site who call themselves lawyers (not Em, but others) who take that fundamental fact about the American system as a matter of opinion is dismaying and speaks to the fundamental intellectual dishonesty of some of the commentors here.Report

    • That there are people on this site who call themselves lawyers (not Em, but others) who take that fundamental fact about the American system as a matter of opinion is dismaying and speaks to the fundamental intellectual dishonesty of some of the commentors here.

      They take it “as a matter of opinion” because the legal systems shows over and over and over that this is not in fact true. Even after the laws of the land were amended to extend liberty and “rights” to women, people of color and a host of other oppressed groups, the courts still oppress them. A great deal of intellectual and monetary capitol is STILL being spent (to say nothing of the political capitol) to assure the truth of what you assert. This is in no way a done deal.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to Kristin Devine says:

      I don’t think I’ve ever seen a lawyer here at OT support prosecuting parents for providing gender affirming care for their kids.

      But if they did, I’d be the first to call them out on it.Report

    • CJColucci in reply to Kristin Devine says:

      The only thing that is “a matter of opinion” is what rights people actually have, which is a lively subject of discussion among lawyers, others who know what they are talking about, and, since it’s a more-or-less free country, others who don’t. People often think they have rights they don’t actually have. There are rights I wish I had that I don’t, but I don’t confuse that with my having those rights.Report

  5. Saul Degraw says:

    The California legislature passed the bill to save Berkeley’s enrollment unanimously or close to unanimously which is pretty impressive when going up against NIMBYs. NIMBYs appear to be the Orangemen of American politics. They might as well make their slogan “NIMBYs will fight and NIMBYs will be right.” I imagine the next step for them is going to be a referendum to overturn the law. Shudder.Report

    • Chip Daniels in reply to Saul Degraw says:

      NIMBYism is similar to anti-abortion in that their zealous pursuit of it warps and distorts every other thing they claim to believe in.Report

      • pillsy in reply to Chip Daniels says:

        This is a pretty wild analogy, but it also seems to be an accurate oneReport

        • Pinky in reply to pillsy says:

          I read it as Chip saw a subthread that wasn’t criticizing conservatives and had to put something in. Besides, Chip doesn’t believe what he said, at least based on prior comments. Opposing abortion is one piece of the colossal white straight male Christian domination game, so how could opposing abortion be the cause of corruption?Report

          • Pinky in reply to Pinky says:

            Next thing, Chip will be discussing the innocent days of McCarthy and how the 1960’s South saw an era of compassion.Report

          • pillsy in reply to Pinky says:

            Opposing abortion is one piece of the colossal white straight male Christian domination game, so how could opposing abortion be the cause of corruption?

            I’m not Chip, but I’d argue that opposing abortion is a major goal of people who value perpetuating white straight male Christian domination, but that the converse is not true. They’re an important part of the anti-abortion coalition that actually exists, and one that has had a baleful influence on the coalition as a whole.

            Then, because they are an important part of a coalition that is, overall, very zealous they end up distorting the priorities of the movement as a whole, leads to evaporative ideological cooling, and then leads to knock-on effects like the ones Chip describes.

            The anti-abortion movement is not the only one subject to this, and there are other examples of movements that I’m much more sympathetic to (ranging from gun rights to environmentalism to advocacy for the rights of Palestinians) where I would point to a similar process.Report

      • Saul Degraw in reply to Chip Daniels says:

        This checks out.Report

      • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

        Interesting take… I’d put it down to having priorities.

        When your top priority disagrees with your next 10, or worse, when all 9 of your top priorities disagree with your tenth, then there’s an argument that you don’t really value your lower priorities, you just want to think you do.Report

        • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

          Kind of what I was driving at, where the priority for accomplishing the goal (ending abortion or protecting property values) outweighs other considerations like small government or economic equality.Report

          • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

            I think it’s mistaking a sentiment for a policy.

            If you ask “should abortion be illegal?”, you will hear many pro-lifers say “yes!”

            If you ask “should police arrest women who get abortions?”, you will hear the overwhelming majority of them sputter in anger and wonder why in the hell that you’re changing the subject.

            The sentiment “abortion shouldn’t be an option” turns into “there oughta be a law” and “there oughta be a law” turns into “make abortion illegal!” and the questions of what “illegal” means IN PRACTICE turns into sputters.

            To bring Russia into this, I’ve heard that people argue that the US should enforce a No Fly Zone over the Ukraine and, when asked if that means that the US should shoot down Russian planes, the answer comes “of course not!”

            Or, put another way:

            Report

            • Chip Daniels in reply to Jaybird says:

              If a woman gets arrested for an abortion, what percentage of pro-lifers will recoil in horror and vote to overturn the law?

              Rough numbers, I think maybe 10%. The other 90% will nod and scroll down to Wordle.

              I will show my work if anyone disagrees.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I agree with the whole “nod, scroll down to wordle” thing.

                It’s really only once the sentiment starts having truly adverse effects that you see people explain that, seriously, you have to understand.

                An interesting example in San Francisco right now is the Chesa recall. I am sure that, two years ago, we would have had quite a boisterous discussion of the importance of restraint on the part of prosecutors with an emphasis on compassion and addressing root causes.

                And, well, in the current year… let me see if I can find a sufficiently non-partisan source…

                Report

              • InMD in reply to Jaybird says:

                I think the whole progressive prosecutor thing is less sentiment and more vocal activists not understanding the issues. The whole approach is a front end solution for a back end problem. Like you’d probably do more about mass incarceration by just across the board dropping the max sentence 5 years for every non capital offense. That and mandating diversion off ramps and eliminating enhancement factors. While this is hard, it has the benefit of maybe actually doing something. Instead they went for ‘we’re just going to stop arresting or prosecuting on the front end.’ HL Mencken has a quote about it, that you could probably apply to the entire pop criminal justice reform movement starting from Memorial Day weekend 2020.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to InMD says:

                I should write a post asking “What is the point of Criminal Justice?”

                Because I’m pretty sure that it’s yet another thing where there are umpty-ump groups discussing umpty-ump issues and they’re all using the same vocabulary but entirely different definitions.Report

            • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

              Yeah, the past 50 years (and the centuries before that) no one’s ever talked about abortion law or even reasoned out what it would look like. That Texas law isn’t really on a piece of paper; it was just someone sputtering in anger then the legislature voted “aye”. The Alabama law too. Just hillbilly grunts and confused looks when someone asked for specifics.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Pinky says:

                For instance, when Kevin Williamson was fired from The Atlantic for arguing that women should be punished for getting abortions, a lot of high profile, highly regarded members of the conservative commentariat insisted that he had a mainstream position on the Right.

                Sure, they were arguing less from any ideological conviction or sociological observation, and more from wanting to cover for their buddy after the libs got him canned… but, uh, I think that goes to Chip’s original point.

                As for the Texas law, it is indeed on a piece of paper, and the reasoned-out consequences look just amazingly good, let me tell you.

                In this case, I’d have to say Chip’s line of argument–or Jaybird’s, FTM–is much more charitable than yours.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to pillsy says:

                I think that Kevin Williamson was fired for making a reductio and being stupid about it.

                If abortion is murder, then a handful of things follow from a murder.

                P -> Q, if you will.

                If you look at the situation and say that Q is absurd. Like, Q isn’t even on the table. Q is stupid. What the hell?!?!? Then you know ~Q.

                And if you know both ~Q at the same time that you know P -> Q, then you also know that ~P.

                But people want to argue P and argue ~Q at the same time and get upset about people who ask about P->Q as if they’re being dishonest.Report

              • Pinky in reply to pillsy says:

                That was an article detailing how women in Texas aren’t being arrested for having abortions. The Alabama law doesn’t arrest women for having abortions. The law in Poland doesn’t. As near as I can tell, the only country that does is El Salvador. So yeah, talking about women going to prison for having abortions is changing the subject.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Pinky says:

                talking about women going to prison for having abortions is changing the subject.

                Breaking laws typically involves punishment, and the police getting involved.

                Wanting something outlawed almost by definition means someone is going to die because the police are enforcing the law.

                That’s everything from selling loosies to junkies randomly breaking windows because they’re high.

                If you want to outlaw abortion as murder but you don’t want the police enforcing the law, then you don’t believe it’s murder and you don’t really want to outlaw it.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

                This is (almost) amusing.

                “We aren’t arresting people for abortion! Suing them into bankruptcy, sure, and having armed marshals forcibly confiscate their stuff . But not arresting them!”

                What’s weird is that they think this makes them sound “moderate”.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I’m making a distinction between abortion providers and abortion seekers. The laws I pointed to make that distinction. You’re not making it.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

                And you think this makes it better somehow?Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                I think it makes the talk about arresting moms moot.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Pinky says:

                Does it make talk about women frantically truying to escape to a free state to avoid dying from ectopic pregnancies moot?

                Or raped teenagers dying from self-induced abortions, are we not allowed to talk about them?

                Its like you think “arresting women” is somehow the bad part.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                It’s the thing you guys brought up, so I’m talking about it. Would you rather talk about abortions due to ectopic pregnancies? The Texas law doesn’t ban those. Would you rather talk about abortions in the case of rape? The Texas law doesn’t ban those either. It’s been a longish thread, but I don’t remember if you’ve brought up a single real point.Report

              • pillsy in reply to Pinky says:

                Would you rather talk about abortions in the case of rape? The Texas law doesn’t ban those either.

                Yeah if the victim can get it within the two weeks following her missed period: it makes no exception for rape.

                Abbot says we just need to eliminate rape so at least the proposed solution is extremely easy and plausible.Report

            • Pinky in reply to Jaybird says:

              Thinking about this tweet, it might be describing a good thing, if it’s that Americans would prefer a particular outcome but don’t want the government involved.Report

              • Jaybird in reply to Pinky says:

                Expressing a desire for an outcome while actively diswanting a particular policy is expressing a sentiment.

                (Nothing wrong with expressing a sentiment! I express them all the time!)Report

              • InMD in reply to Pinky says:

                I think it’s more a combination of the tendency of heavily political people to project their priors into everything and the inherent limitations of polls to reflect nuance.

                You know the routine. Do you want universal government funded healthcare? Yes! Would you pay a 48% marginal tax rate to support it? No! Do you think climate change is a crisis? Yes! Would you pay a carbon tax to stop it? No! Do you support common sense gun control? Yes! Even if it meant you personally would never be allowed to own a handgun? No!Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to InMD says:

                The pattern get broken with NIMBYs and abortion is what I’m claiming.

                Do you want to preserve property values? YES

                Even if this means poor students can’t rent in Berkeley? YES

                Do you want to stop abortion, even if it means a woman dies from an ectopic pregnancy? YES

                Now, to be fair it will take a lot of interrogation to get to those final YESes but eventually they will get there.Report

              • InMD in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                My response to Pinky was really just to push back on the idea that there’s a small-l libertarian sentiment underlying the phenomenon. I think it’s fickleness and the political wishy-washiness of the average Joe.

                I’m still chewing on your original point, but I think I might agree, at least as it was restated by pillsy.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                But nobody claims to believe in NIMBYism. That’s the problem with your theory. NIMBY isn’t a position which is held consistently, it’s a kind of inconsistency. It’s saying I believe in A, B, and C, but not near me. NIMBY can be a rallying cry, but not as a principle.Report

              • Pinky in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                Also – this is kind of getting tied up with my response to InMD both in subject and in layout, but you’ve previously said that you don’t accept any limiting principles. Which makes your stand on all this facetious.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                eventually they will get there.

                Given how much magic thinking is involved?

                All pregnancies go well, all babies are well formed, and there is no reason to have an abortion other then wanting to save time.

                Ergo we outlaw abortion and there are no side effects, everyone will simply follow the law.

                No, you’re not allowed to question the basic definitions of reality just like you’re not allowed to question the basic mechanics of religion.Report

              • Pinky in reply to InMD says:

                Yeah, it could be. That’s one way of reading Snek’s tweet. It’s probably what he meant. But the scenario he described isn’t necessarily a bad one. My first thought was that it could indicate limiting principles. Another possibility is believing in the general idea but not the specific way of getting there. I could believe in, say, universal health care, but also believe that the best way to attain it is with an expansion of Medicare with tight rationing and all costs covered through estate taxes.Report

              • InMD in reply to Pinky says:

                Sure I think there’s probably some of that baked in. And I want to be clear even where there isn’t I’m not saying wishy-washy is totally a bad thing. I think you and I may have lightly touched on my view on that subject in some of the voting rights posts. I have a strong suspicion that it’s the single issue voters and the incoherent people and even the straight up ignorant that keep the system shuffling along. I know that’s not what you meant by limiting principle but they’re certainly a force for moderation.Report

  6. PD Shaw says:

    ww4: Smollett’s sentence has been stayed pending disposition of his appeal by a 2-1 Appellate Court decision. His 150 day sentence would likely have meant 75 days in jail with good behavior. The main finding is here:

    “FINDING that the defendant has been convicted on non-violent offenses and that this Court will be unable to dispose of the instant appeal before the defendant would have served his entire sentence of incarceration . . .”Report

    • PD Shaw in reply to PD Shaw says:

      Looks like he raised double jeopardy claims based upon the State Attorney’s original dismissal of his criminal case. Because of ethical issues, a special prosecutor was appointed who filed new charges, and he was convicted of five out of six of these. Smollett’s attorney’s unsuccessfully filed various motions prior to trial (double-jeopardy, breach of contract, and lack of authority for a special prosecutor), but these order(s) were not appealed prior to trial.

      The prosecutor argued three points:

      1. The case was dismissed nolle prosequi and double jeopardy does not attach to a mere decision not to prosecute before jeopardy attaches.

      2. Smollett claims that his forfeiture of the bond constituted jeopardy. But the prosecutor claims that was an entirely voluntary act, not ordered by the court and there were no findings of guilt or innocent.

      3. Also, in appointing a special prosecutor, the judge found that all of the previous filings were void because there was no duly appointed State’s Attorney. (I believe this has to do with the State’s Attorney recusing herself, but not actually recusing herself)Report

      • DensityDuck in reply to PD Shaw says:

        Here were my thoughts on Smollett and it’s going down just about as I predicted, and it’s just as much a waste of time and money as I said it would be.Report

        • Dark Matter in reply to DensityDuck says:

          It showcased that the narrative can be stupid and is subject to abuse. It kept Smollett in the papers, first as an idiot and now as a lunatic, which helped his career burn. On the whole it feels like justice.Report

        • PD Shaw in reply to DensityDuck says:

          I guess it depends on who was wasting whose time & money. The sentence included $120,106 in restitution to the City for wasted time investigating the hoax. I don’t begrudge trying to get money back, at the very least to deter future schemes.

          I think my previous thoughts were that the State’s Attorney had screwed over Smollett by not settling through some alternative program, but these would have required acceptance of responsibility, even if impaired by drugs or mental health issues. I don’t think I realized how much media Smollett was generating in his quest to be a civil rights icon.

          If I’m understanding the issues in this appeal, they are not going to exonerate him from the public’s perspective. He went to trial and was convicted. (I’m surprised that his lawyers didn’t appeal the double jeopardy issue before trial for this reason) We haven’t heard the last of Jussie Smollett.Report

          • Dark Matter in reply to PD Shaw says:

            We haven’t heard the last of Jussie Smollett.

            He’s a “famous at any cost” guy and he’s politically/socially connected. He might also be mentally ill.

            I predict something wild and crazy.Report

            • North in reply to Dark Matter says:

              I can’t imagine he’ll be able to finagle someone into paying him to act in a television show or film though.Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to North says:

                Mainstream no. Something for the extreme woke and/or activist maybe.

                He’s now a name. There’s got to be a way to monetize that even if I can’t think how.

                Now maybe his personality and dignity and whatever won’t let him do whatever.Report

              • Chip Daniels in reply to Dark Matter says:

                “Our special guest tonight on the Joe Rogan Show- A guy who is just asking questions about the Mainstream Media…”Report

              • Dark Matter in reply to Chip Daniels says:

                “A young black man unjustly convicted for a crime that no white man would even be charged over. He showcases the serious inequalities in the system. After the prosecutor decided to ignore this so called crime…”

                That’s darn close to quoting some recent editorial. He still has supporters.Report

  7. Jaybird says:

    As a Jussie Smollett Truther, I want to know whether Empire is even a television show.Report

    • Mike Schilling in reply to Jaybird says:

      Neither Holy, nor Roman, nor on TV.Report

    • Dark Matter in reply to Jaybird says:

      I never watched it, but reading it’s wiki it sounds like Smollett was really doing well and adding a lot to the series. It ran 6 seasons. Smollett was so popular that even after he self destructed Fox still picked up an option to put him back on the show (but never did).

      By Actor standards Smollett was successful. Not A list but solid B or C or something. Fully employed (that puts him in the upper 1% of actors right there) on a major show plus misc. He had access to serious roles in movies to try to break out.

      Pulling a STUNT is probably expected. That stunt being a hate crime probably speaks to where his head is at more than anything else… although at this point I’m wondering if we’re in mental illness territory.Report

  8. Slade the Leveller says:

    Re: the Smollet case, which everyone thought couldn’t get any more bananas: The 2 guys Smollet hired to rough him up are suing his lawyer for slander.

    https://cookcountyrecord.com/stories/622170705-judge-again-nixes-bid-by-smollett-lawyer-to-escape-nigerian-bros-slander-suit-over-whiteface-claim

    I think the restitution and sentence were fair. It is amusing to me as a Chicagoan that the police say they devoted all that time to investigating the purported crime when these days they can hardly be bothered to get out of the squad car.Report

    • Of course they devoted all that time to it. Look at the time sheets! The little text box says “investigated smollett case”!Report

    • Dark Matter in reply to Slade the Leveller says:

      Smollett and his family are rich, famous, and connected to the Prosecutor. Of course it’s going to attract attention, that was the point.

      That and his other statements makes me wonder if we’re in mental illness territory. He wanted it to be taken extremely seriously, but didn’t want it taken seriously.

      The counter argument is the various other activists at a college level who have also faked hate crimes to attract attention. Ergo it may simply be an obvious button to push that you don’t expect to REALLY be investigated with the resources the gov has and taken seriously.Report